If you get rid of the highest tiers and magicks...

[Kaje]

If you get rid of tiers 1 and 2, and cap other spellcasting and manifesting at level 6 (probably give the warmage, DN, and beguiler the bard progression), what would this produce? Would lvl 20+ characters still be able to have the swashbuckling adventures that their lower-level cousins can have (admittedly at a bit larger scale)? Would you be able to have dungeon crawls that are still challenging? What would an epic level pirate campaign look like?

[Brookshw]

The game wouldn't suffer in any substantial way.

High tiers just have more options to over come challenges, that doesn't mean a party might not otherwise be able to over come them, just that the means to do so aren't consolidated to one character. Assuming a dm is planning things based on the party it really wouldn't change much.

[holywhippet]

You can make any dungeon crawl challenging regardless of party makeup. It just needs to be designed to challenge the party as is.

The main problem with cutting out the high tier classes is that healing becomes a bit more time consuming since you'd be relying on classes like the bard and their more meagre spell pool.

Still I'd say it would be more of a balanced challenge as things the fighters might have trouble with can't simply be erased by the spellcasters.

[Dr. Azkur]

If at any point a game stops being challenging When you look at your game and no longer see a challenge, you know the DM is not doing his job. Regardless of the composition of the party.

[Zetapup]

People would definitely still be able to have grand adventures and whatnot even without tier 1 and 2 classes. There are some interesting side effects of limiting spells to 6th level though: magical items requiring higher level spells wouldn't exist (unless I'm missing some ability that allows people to craft items without knowing the requisite spells). This means that stuff like the Manuals of +x to a stat wouldn't exist, as they need wish/miracle to be made. I'm sure there are other items that are affected by this, but I'm AFAB and can't check them. Whether this is a good thing or bad thing just depends on the dm and their players.

I'm a bit curious how you'd handle monsters with spellcasting levels/abilities though. Are you going to limit monsters to 6th level spells as well, or do they keep their spells? Do warlocks still get dark invocations? What about binders who get abilities that are the equivalent of higher than 6th level spells (Specifically, Halphax's imprisonment ability is the equivalent of the 9th level spell, except slightly worse)?

Dungeon crawls could still be challenging. I've been in parties where everyone was tier 4 or below (and occasionally an unoptimized wizard or cleric) and we still had challenging encounters and quite a bit of fun. Frankly, as long as the party is pretty close in power level, the dm can create a decent challenge for them regardless of the tier (although this can be a lot more work with tier 1 classes and is very difficult to do if the party has widely varying levels of power, e.g., a sword and board fighter in the same group as a druid with natural spell).

I don't think I can answer the epic pirate campaign question with any amount of accuracy since I've never played epic. For me at least, epic gets very silly very quickly. I suppose it wouldn't be too bad in this scenario since there's no epic spellcasting, but eh.

[Fax Celestis]

This is pretty much what my houserules look like, honestly.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=16521592&postcount=12

[Gemini476]

Regarding magical items, a 12th level Warlock or an ECL 12 Midgard Dwarf can create many, many items.


Imbue Item (Su):A warlock of 12th level or higher can
use his supernatural power to create magic items, even if he
does not know the spells required to make an item (although
he must know the appropriate item creation feat). He can
substitute a Use Magic Device check (DC 15 + spell level for
arcane spells or 25 + spell level for divine spells) in place of
a required spell he doesn’t know or can’t cast.
If the check succeeds, the warlock can create the item as if
he had cast the required spell. If it fails, he cannot complete
the item. He does not expend the XP or gp costs for making
the item; his progress is simply arrested. He cannot retry this
Use Magic Device check for that spell until he gains a new
level.


Master Smith (Ex): Midgard dwarves gain Craft Magic
Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item, and Forge Ring as
bonus feats. They are considered to possess the prerequisites
necessary to craft any magic item of those types, even if they
do not otherwise meet the requirements or have the ability
to cast the necessary spells.

[Theomniadept]

That actually might have a negative effect on other players.

Not having Wish spells means the world doesn't have +5 tomes to increase attributes meaning much higher powered enemies are suddenly extremely difficult. For low to mid levels, however, this is still okay.

[ryu]

At high level this probably means the world is effectively nerfed as a whole to prevent people from simply commanding and controlling creatures with high level SLAs through various means or that the sort of thing you ban in terms of tier one power is still entirely possible albeit with more necessary steps.

[Zetapup]

Regarding magical items, a 12th level Warlock or an ECL 12 Midgard Dwarf can create many, many items.

Okay, so items that require spells higher than 6th level would exist, but probably be much rarer than in an average setting. The warlock/midgard dwarf stranglehold on items like that would be interesting though: would people flock to them and pay exhorbitant amounts of money for the items? Or would large amounts of people sell their souls and become warlocks specifically for the crafting skills? Would 12th level warlocks group up and form crafting guilds or would they keep their abilities to themselves? What if people believe that higher level spells and the ability to craft items needing those spells as prereqs belongs to the gods and thus worship the crafters as deities or persecute them as heretics? The rules could create quite a few unintended adventure hooks and bits of fluff.

[BWR]

If at any point a game stops being challenging the DM is not doing his job. Regardless of the composition of the party.

True as far as it goes, but some DMs are simply not capable of knowing the rules to the extent that the high-optimizers are. One of my DMs is like this. He works just fine on a low-op and makes fun and engaging games, but there is a definite ceiling to the power levels he can run, and that ceiling is a lot lower than some people in the group can manage. So we play at his power level and enjoy the game.
I'm like this too. There's no way I could keep up with lots of people here. We play d20 more as (we believe) the designers intended it and are fine with that.

In both cases we have clerics and wizards or sorcerers in the group and yes, they are powerful and vital members of the team and very versatile, but they wouldn't survive without the mundanes on the team.

The problem of tiers and spellcasting trumping all really only shows up above a certain level of optimiation.

[Doc_Maynot]

If that was the case I'd always play Chameleons. Can you say officially better than ur-priest with that setup?

[KoboldMasteRace]

If at any point a game stops being challenging the DM is not doing his job. Regardless of the composition of the party.

That's a fair assessment, but I don't like your wording. I mean, the game can stop be challenging for a second; downtime exists, and some combats are just bound to have random dice god breezethroughs. Also, it's worth noting that while it doesn't change the fact that the DM in question needs improvement, often players taking advantage of DMs who are unskilled or inexperienced is more the fault of the player than the DM. I mean, very few of the individual components of, say, a god wizard should be auto-banned, but the whole creation can trivialize everything.

I would know, I've been that player.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You didn't specify but I'll presume epic spellcasting is also banned, rather than adapted, in this scenario.

Basically you've stretched out the mid and low levels to encompass the entire non-epic game. If you can still have a decent game at level 12 then this change will prevent things from getting beyond your grasp.

Nuking the T2's is probably excessive. It's not the classes but the spells that create issues.

T1's are problematic because they're not limited in how many of the game-breakers they can have, not because of any of the mechanics specific to the classes themselves (except a druid's wildshape.) There's no elegant solution to this issue so their banning is probably for the best if you're not up to dealing with high-op spellcasters.

[Seffbasilisk]

It means low-magic, and a frightful populace, coupled with so tch-hunters. It means DR is much more powerful. It means less wish fulfilment and more grit. It's a place where the shield meets the shoulder and the mortal grapple the mystical.

I'm actually playing in a game like this called Triman on Myth-weavers. Tier three limit. It's cool.

[Dr. Azkur]

That's a fair assessment, but I don't like your wording. I mean, the game can stop be challenging for a second; downtime exists, and some combats are just bound to have random dice god breezethroughs. Also, it's worth noting that while it doesn't change the fact that the DM in question needs improvement, often players taking advantage of DMs who are unskilled or inexperienced is more the fault of the player than the DM. I mean, very few of the individual components of, say, a god wizard should be auto-banned, but the whole creation can trivialize everything.

I would know, I've been that player.

True, I made it sound as if I meant that every minute of the game should be a challenge. And that is not what I meant.

[Person_Man]

It's worth noting that there's nothing inherently wrong or unbalanced about Tier 1-2 classes. (Although most of them are poorly written). I've played and DM'd with them many times with positive results. The main issue is spell/power/wildshape selection, implementation, and frequency of use.

For example, everyone agrees that Polymorph is basically a "win" button for almost any type of encounter, unless you're fighting similarly ridiculously powerful enemies. But I've used it in games - to turn into a bird, a mouse, and even occasionally even a low-key combat form. I use it rarely, and only when other players don't have a solution to offer or are close to TPK.

Similarly, no one would have a problem with a Wizard who memorized a bunch of different Evocation spells, with the occasional utility spell to give it some versatility.

In most cases, the easiest thing to do is to just ask Tier 1-2 players not to be jerks, and to ask Tier 4-5 players if they'd like to play a homebrew fix or would like extra treasure. If your players are not capable of making that distinction, then yes, by all means start lowering the optimization ceiling raising the floor until you get a game you all enjoy playing.