3 Storm Sorc questions

[SirAxealot]

Hey guys, normally I do ok at making characters but this Storm Sorcerer is giving me some issues and I'd like some opinions.

1) What implement? I am planning to pick up dual implement spellcaster and I'm not sure exactly how the two implements interact. Right now I'm thinking an accurate quickbeam staff and a lightning lancing dagger to get both thunder and lightning boosts.

2) What expertise feat should I get? I was thinking to take War Wizard, but then I saw you have to use it with light or heavy blades.

3) What theme would work well for a storm sorcerer?

Here's my build for reference.


Rarrul, level 5
Hengeyokai, Sorcerer
Spell Source Option: Storm Magic
Animal Form Option: Crane (Nature)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 13, DEX 17, INT 10, WIS 8, CHA 19

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 13, DEX 14, INT 10, WIS 8, CHA 18


AC: 18 Fort: 15 Ref: 17 Will: 20
HP: 45 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 11

TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +7, Diplomacy +11, Intimidate +11, Stealth +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +5, Athletics +2, Bluff +8, Dungeoneering +1, Endurance +3, Heal +1, History +2, Insight +1, Nature +3, Perception +1, Religion +2, Streetwise +6, Thievery +6

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Hengeyokai Utility: Nature's Mask
Sorcerer Attack 1: Lightning Strike
Sorcerer Attack 1: Blazing Starfall
Sorcerer Attack 1: Explosive Pyre
Sorcerer Attack 1: Howling Tempest
Sorcerer Utility 2: Good Timing
Sorcerer Attack 3: Lightning Cuts
Sorcerer Attack 5: Thunder Leap

FEATS
Level 1: Dual Implement Spellcaster
Level 2: Unarmored Agility
Level 4: Mark of Storm
Level 5: Improved Defenses
Level 5: War Wizard's Expertise

ITEMS
Lucky Charm +1 x1
Shimmering Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +1 x1
Lightning Dagger +1 x1
Quickbeam staff of the War Mage +1 x1

[Calen]

dagger is a light blade...

[SirAxealot]

dagger is a light blade...

Staff isn't, though.

[Telwar]

Staff isn't, though.

You're best off picking one implement type and sticking with it, due to feats.

Daggers are pretty-well supported; not only does War Wizard's Expertise give you more license to scratch the party's back with your AoE, but you can use Ensorcelled Blade to get an MBA, and many of the other Light Blade feats can be pretty darn handy. I'm using an Incendiary Dagger of Speed on my fire elementalist, and I'm lovin' it.

Staves, though, have the all-important Staff Expertise, which I would honestly take even if it didn't give the feat bonus to attack, because that compensates for a non-sticky defender, and you have to take Shimmering Armor otherwise. And Staff of Ruin is just plain lovely. Staves also are somewhat more common and more caster-y.

Dual Implement Spellcaster you should take sometime late heroic or early paragon, definitely not first; Implement Focus or another feat does at least the same damage at that point. As written, it means you just have to have the other implement in your off-hand, but this also means you can switch it up. SFAICT, non-held implements, like ki foci and holy symbols, don't count as off-hand, though off-hand items count for them.

[Rhaegar14]

Telwar is absolutely correct. You might be able to get away with doubling up on implements in low Heroic tier, but after a while feats like Superior Implement Training, Implement Focus, and whatever Expertise you choose to take will make doubling up on implements more and more costly.

Storm Sorcerers also have the Dexterity to get a couple of the really good light blade feats (though not all of them are good for Sorcerers), and one of the Sorcerer's best powers, Lightning Cuts, requires you to use a dagger. In addition, a Storm Sorcerer is likely to want a damage converter (especially if they take the Lightning Fury Paragon Path), making one of the big reasons to use a staff, the Staff of Ruin, pretty much irrelevant.

EDIT: As far as Themes, Ooze Master is pretty standard on ranged attackers. If you go the dagger route for some melee powers, Sohei and Guardian will both be as good as they would be on any other character. I'm partial to Alchemist for its versatility, but it also creates a lot of bookkeeping.

[Gavran]

I'm fond of Lightning Weapon / Shielding or Rhythm Blade, personally. Rhythm Blade being strictly better but some may object to it since it says it increases your shield bonus rather than you gain one. (Get a Paladin buddy with Devout Protector Expertise if they do complain, that'll show 'em!) It's a semi-valid argument based on null being different from zero but I personally think that's an overly literal reading.

Definitely pick up Accurate or Lancing dagger training. War Wizard Expertise is a fine choice. If you are worried about provoking OAs, the feat Sorcerous Blade Channeling lets you use Ranged attacks as Melee attacks when you want to. It doesn't cover Area attacks like Staff Expertise does, but it also opens up a few unexpected bonuses like getting CA from prone enemies and Iron Armbands of Power.

But yeah. Staff of Ruin is beautiful, doubling up on implement feat taxes is too awful a price.

[Nightgaun7]

I've seen it mentioned that you can get a Lightning Dagger with Lancing, but I couldn't find it in the CB. Any idea what the deal is there?

EDIT: In fact, having never made a character that uses a weapliment or whatever, I'm just discovering that daggers with any kind of enhancement don't appear to have the Superior Qualities, and that Accurate implements don't appear to be adding to the attack roll in the CB properly.

[Kurald Galain]

Until you have two +3 weapons, Dual Implement isn't worth it.
Because of the Staff of Ruin, staffs are the best implement for any character focusing on damage, so Staff Expertise would be more fitting than War Wizard's.
And are you sure you want to make a sorcerer without Flame Spiral? It's a bit cliched perhaps, but it's normally a power sorcerers stick with all the way up to epic tier, because it's just that good.

[masteraleph]

I've seen it mentioned that you can get a Lightning Dagger with Lancing, but I couldn't find it in the CB. Any idea what the deal is there?

EDIT: In fact, having never made a character that uses a weapliment or whatever, I'm just discovering that daggers with any kind of enhancement don't appear to have the Superior Qualities, and that Accurate implements don't appear to be adding to the attack roll in the CB properly.

They exist, and the CB should be working. You need to have the feat for the CB to put the weapon in the Marketplace (make sure you're selecting Superior, not Simple or Martial).

1) Don't bother with a second implement until later- as was noted, for when you have two +3 implements, or for when the off hand is really useful. Note that you only get the properties of the one you're using for the attack- you get nothing from the other one until you take Dual Implement Spellcaster, and it's not worth taking that until mid-late Paragon; there are better feats for a Storm Sorcerer beforehand. The only exceptions I might make- and I'd keep these a level or two below your main hand- are a) Shielding Blade Dagger, b) Rhythm Blade Dagger (the CB will allow this to work no matter what, but RAW it only works if you have a shield bonus from elsewhere), or- if you take an RBA as one of your at wills- Weapon of Speed, though that's Rare.

For the main hand, go Lancing or Accurate Lightning Dagger. When you can get +3s, get a Thunderbolt Weapon instead- just as good for you, but level 13 instead of 15.

2) Don't go with 2 implements- too much feat cost. Go with War Wizard's and get a set of Shimmering Armor.

2.5) You didn't ask for feat/power suggestions, but I'm going to give some anyways:

a) Wait on DIS for mid-late Paragon; it's not worth it until then. You can always take Implement Focus in Heroic if you want, and replace that with Lightning Soul in Paragon.

b) I don't generally think UA is worth it, but YMMV.

c) Pick up Superior Will in late Heroic or early Paragon. Not for the bonus (which will only be +1 over Improved Defenses), but to remove the sunned/dazed issue.

d) You're really well built for Flame Spiral at level 3- you get the first damage instance, Mark of Storm fires and you slide the enemies adjacent to you for a second damage instance, then they take another one at the start of your turn. You're really, really well built for that.

e) What leader do you have in your party? It might be worth taking either an RBA or Ensorcelled Blade if you have someone granting you basic attacks.

3) For most sorcerers, I suggest Beguiler, for the Flame Spiral, but Mark of Storm obviates any need to slide beyond that. Sohei is mechanically probably the best, but you have the luxury that just about anything works- you don't need to focus on combat benefits, particularly.

[Nightgaun7]

They exist, and the CB should be working. You need to have the feat for the CB to put the weapon in the Marketplace (make sure you're selecting Superior, not Simple or Martial).


Even with the correct feats, it's still not working for either Accurate or Lancing Lightning Daggers.

[Surrealistik]

And are you sure you want to make a sorcerer without Flame Spiral? It's a bit cliched perhaps, but it's normally a power sorcerers stick with all the way up to epic tier, because it's just that good.

Haha, a bit cliched?

It's pretty well the only thing outside of the Elementalist that makes Sorcs worth a damn.

[Aasimar]

I love staffs and I love dual implement spellcasting, but I hate the imagery of wielding two staffs, there's just no way to not look silly doing it.

[Nightgaun7]

Haha, a bit cliched?

It's pretty well the only thing outside of the Elementalist that makes Sorcs worth a damn.

Wasn't it heavily nerfed at some point?

[Rhaegar14]

Wasn't it heavily nerfed at some point?

Yeah, they specified that they can only take the extra damage once. However, you need to remember it's a damage ROLL, which means it's 1d6+modifiers extra damage, not just 1d6 extra damage. Even if they only take the extra damage once, it's still a double tap that affects up to three enemies.

[Nightgaun7]

Yeah, they specified that they can only take the extra damage once. However, you need to remember it's a damage ROLL, which means it's 1d6+modifiers extra damage, not just 1d6 extra damage. Even if they only take the extra damage once, it's still a double tap that affects up to three enemies.

I know about the mods, but being relatively new to 4E I never saw the glory that was Flame Spiral pre-nerf

[Dimers]

Even with the correct feats, it's still not working for either Accurate or Lancing Lightning Daggers.

Huh. Did you look under Implements too?

[Nightgaun7]

Huh. Did you look under Implements too?

I can get lancing daggers, and accurate daggers, and lightning daggers, but no combination thereof.

[Dimers]

Very weird. :smallconfused:

I'm glad I generally don't use the CB. Little bugs drive me nuts.

[Surrealistik]

Yeah, they specified that they can only take the extra damage once. However, you need to remember it's a damage ROLL, which means it's 1d6+modifiers extra damage, not just 1d6 extra damage. Even if they only take the extra damage once, it's still a double tap that affects up to three enemies.

Once per _turn_.

So with adequate forced movement, a party can turn the Flame Spiral Sorcerer into a full-on blender.

[Rhaegar14]

Once per _turn_.

So with adequate forced movement, a party can turn the Flame Spiral Sorcerer into a full-on blender.

Yeah, but imo that's violating RAI. Still, the great thing about RAI is that it's subject to interpretation.

[Nightgaun7]

Yeah, but imo that's violating RAI. Still, the great thing about RAI is that it's subject to interpretation.

Given that the original was reworded to the current form, and that there are many other powers that allow for multiple iterations of damage on separate turns, it seems that the RAW and RAI line up in this case.

[Kurald Galain]

Zones and forced momement aren't RAI, in the sense that the original designers of 4E apparently never considered the possibility. It took them several years after the release of the game to decide that this needs errata, and I'm pretty sure that when the errata was being written, the original designers didn't work for WOTC any more.

So RAI is hard to argue with here. More to the point, if some of your players are into serious optimization, then it's worth considering to ban Flame Spiral, as its potential damage is clearly much higher than that of other level-3 powers.

[masteraleph]

Yeah, but imo that's violating RAI. Still, the great thing about RAI is that it's subject to interpretation.

Not really. The way forced movement works might not have originally been RAI, but by the time they nerfed it, it was RAI. Otherwise they could have just nerfed it to say "when the target voluntarily enters a square adjacent to you" or "on your turn" or something like that. They went for once per turn because it's relatively balanced, and because that's what they had already done with every zone. It's also what they did, even later, with Lightning Fury's f16. I mean, what's your interpretation for what's meant with the nerfed text?

[Rhaegar14]

Not really. The way forced movement works might not have originally been RAI, but by the time they nerfed it, it was RAI. Otherwise they could have just nerfed it to say "when the target voluntarily enters a square adjacent to you" or "on your turn" or something like that. They went for once per turn because it's relatively balanced, and because that's what they had already done with every zone. It's also what they did, even later, with Lightning Fury's f16. I mean, what's your interpretation for what's meant with the nerfed text?

Once per ROUND, i.e. you can't force them to take the damage five times if everyone in your party forces movement. Mostly based on (as far as I know/recall) most other zone powers having a once/round stipulation and (as Kurald Galain pointed out) the fact that we're talking about a 3rd-level encounter power here.

[Nightgaun7]

Once per ROUND, i.e. you can't force them to take the damage five times if everyone in your party forces movement. Mostly based on (as far as I know/recall) most other zone powers having a once/round stipulation and (as Kurald Galain pointed out) the fact that we're talking about a 3rd-level encounter power here.

Well at 3rd level your group is unlikely to have huge amounts of forced movement, and by later levels who cares?

In any event, it seems pretty clear, given the last errata to it, that the rules line up between RAI and RAW, although perhaps not RAYD (rules as you desire)

[Kimera757]

Once per _turn_.

So with adequate forced movement, a party can turn the Flame Spiral Sorcerer into a full-on blender.

I have a draconic sorcerer who uses this power in my game. He is getting damage bonuses to the 1d6 damage for creatures that start their turn there, but I'm not sure where it's coming from. I assume Dragon Magic, but I'm not entirely sure.

To add to the relevancy, my group size is currently small, so absences could cripple games. As a result, I've built a companion version of each PC, including the dragonsorc. At present, his companion version only does that 1d6 damage, but it should probably be 1d6 + 3 (companions get a half level bonus to damage to make up for a lack of enhancement bonuses and feats).

[masteraleph]

Once per ROUND, i.e. you can't force them to take the damage five times if everyone in your party forces movement. Mostly based on (as far as I know/recall) most other zone powers having a once/round stipulation and (as Kurald Galain pointed out) the fact that we're talking about a 3rd-level encounter power here.

Erm...they all have once per turn stipulations. Zone once per turn comes up with 60 results in the Compendium. Zone once per round comes up with 3, one of which has a "starts it turn" effect and requires a free action for a different effect, one of which has a general effect but lets you expand or contract the zone once per round as a minor action, and the last of which lets you make a secondary attack once per round, again as a minor action.


I have a draconic sorcerer who uses this power in my game. He is getting damage bonuses to the 1d6 damage for creatures that start their turn there, but I'm not sure where it's coming from. I assume Dragon Magic, but I'm not entirely sure.

To add to the relevancy, my group size is currently small, so absences could cripple games. As a result, I've built a companion version of each PC, including the dragonsorc. At present, his companion version only does that 1d6 damage, but it should probably be 1d6 + 3 (companions get a half level bonus to damage to make up for a lack of enhancement bonuses and feats).

Keep in mind that it's still part of the power. So if you have a magic implement, it gets the enhancement bonus, it gets the feat bonus from Fiery Blood, Dragon Magic feature, etc.

This is one of those places where wording is finicky- for example, Fiery Blood gives a "+3 feat bonus to fire damage rolls." Flame Spiral's effect is a fire damage roll. Implement Focus, on the other hand, gives a "+1 feat bonus to the damage rolls of implement attacks that you make with the chosen implement," and probably wouldn't apply. Draconic Power (part of a Dragon Magic Sorcerer) grants a bonus to the damage rolls of arcane powers and would apply, etc.

[captpike]

This is one of those places where wording is finicky- for example, Fiery Blood gives a "+3 feat bonus to fire damage rolls." Flame Spiral's effect is a fire damage roll. Implement Focus, on the other hand, gives a "+1 feat bonus to the damage rolls of implement attacks that you make with the chosen implement," and probably wouldn't apply. Draconic Power (part of a Dragon Magic Sorcerer) grants a bonus to the damage rolls of arcane powers and would apply, etc.

its still part of the power with the implement keyword. its the reason zone and aura powers with rolls are so powerful, you get everything but your main stat mod (but if your a Sorc you would get your secondary mod). so a power like plague of frogs only does slightly less damage from the zone them your first hit.

its one of the reasons that a common houserule is to make them once a round (or at least once a turn, there are a few that have no limitations at all).