Redcloak in DCF

[MagicalMeat]

I know that the real reason for Redcloak's character development is simply the character being fleshed out, but is there an in-comic reason for Redcloak being so spineless early on in the comic?

[Bovine Colonel]

I know that the real reason for Redcloak's character development is simply the character being fleshed out, but is there an in-comic reason for Redcloak being so spineless early on in the comic?

Have you read Start of Darkness? It's Redcloak's and Xykon's origin story. It answers your question quite well.

[Loreweaver15]

Have you read Start of Darkness? It's Redcloak's and Xykon's origin story. It answers your question quite well.

Yeah. The events therein had happened just a couple months ago when the comic started. I won't say more than that.

[Porthos]

I know that the real reason for Redcloak's character development is simply the character being fleshed out, but is there an in-comic reason for Redcloak being so spineless early on in the comic?

Not explicitly spelled out, but ever since I've read Start of Darkness, I've thought that.... what happened in that book shook him up pretty well. Well enough that he crawled into a mental shell and started his best Mister Smithers routine. :smallamused:

It wasn't until he was thrust into a position of leadership of the hobgoblins that he really started to come out of that shell again.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yeah, what happens in SoD leads to Xykon dominating over Redcloak more and more, until we reach the point were he is spineless servant. I would say more but, spoilers...
He starts to come out of this state once he is put back into a position of authority: when he leads over the hobgoblins.

[Porthos]

Yeah, what happens in SoD leads to Xykon dominating over Redcloak more and more, until we reach the point were he is spineless servant. I would say more but, spoilers...
He starts to come out of this state once he is put back into a position of authority: when he leads over the hobgoblins.

What's interesting about that whole section of growth/rediscovery is twofold.

One, it actually started a little bit when Xykon was non-corporeal. Redcloak gets more sassy and starts backtalking. If one wants to look at it from a certain way, it's because the power balance between the two was radically shifted for a time. And by the time Xykon had fully regenerated, the power imbalance didn't go back to what it was.

What's a tad more subtle until it was addressed hundreds of comics later was Xykon's attempt (conscious or not) to corrupt Redcloak. By that I mean all of his little digs and suggestions to make Redcloak act more like, well, Xykon.

Was working beautifully until Redcloak's famous moment of realization.

I think it was that moment when the last shackles of what happened on SoD were finally set aside and Redcloak was his own goblin again.

...

I don't exactly view it as a coincidence that SoD was published right around that time. :smalltongue:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It's because of all those beautiful and subtle things about Redcloak that he is my favorite villain.

[Bird]

Folks make good points about SoD, but I think a big part of the "real world" reason is that the Giant didn't know what Redcloak's ultimate role would be when he first introduced the character.

[RMS Oceanic]

Folks make good points about SoD, but I think a big part of the "real world" reason is that the Giant didn't know what Redcloak's ultimate role would be when he first introduced the character.

Well that much is apparent, but as a retcon, it fits very well.

[MrMercury]

It's because of all those beautiful and subtle things about Redcloak that he is my favorite villain.

Same here :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

[DeliaP]

I'd like to add my favourite Redcloak character-growth speculation here....

In SoD, he admits
to Right-Eye, after he's made Xykon a lich,
that Xykon is so powerful that he has little choice but to work with him on The Plan, as otherwise he'll have Xykon as an opponent instead of an ally.

That argument remains as true now as it did then.

After Redcloak has his epiphany at the Battle for Azure City, he starts acting most clearly against Xykon, delaying the departure for the other gates as long as possible, to do what? (a) Build up Gobbotopia into a viable base for goblinoids; and (b) steal and substitute Xykon's phylactery.

It's been pointed out that if Gobbotopia succeeds, there isn't really that need for The Plan anymore, as they'll have got what they wanted already: a level playing field and access to resources. The problem for Redcloak is, even if his epiphany has made him realise this, he can't just walk away from The Plan, because Xykon wouldn't let him.

In SoD, Xykon showed what he would do:
when Redcloak tried to quit once before, Xykon threatened to destroy Right-Eye's village and all his family unless they all worked for him
Now, if Redcloak were to tell Xykon he was quitting to help build Gobbotopia, Xykon would just destroy Gobbotopia to remove that issue.

So what Redcloak would need is to get Xykon away from Gobbotopia, and then arrange his destruction. Giving control of the gates to the Dark One would be only now secondary to preserving Gobbotopia, and for that, Xykon would need to go. Hence stealing the phylactery.

What if, actually, the "Don't screw this up" command from the Dark One was actually referring to Gobbotopia, now?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I'd like to add my favourite Redcloak character-growth speculation here....

In SoD, he admits
to Right-Eye, after he's made Xykon a lich,
that Xykon is so powerful that he has little choice but to work with him on The Plan, as otherwise he'll have Xykon as an opponent instead of an ally.

That argument remains as true now as it did then.

After Redcloak has his epiphany at the Battle for Azure City, he starts acting most clearly against Xykon, delaying the departure for the other gates as long as possible, to do what? (a) Build up Gobbotopia into a viable base for goblinoids; and (b) steal and substitute Xykon's phylactery.

It's been pointed out that if Gobbotopia succeeds, there isn't really that need for The Plan anymore, as they'll have got what they wanted already: a level playing field and access to resources. The problem for Redcloak is, even if his epiphany has made him realise this, he can't just walk away from The Plan, because Xykon wouldn't let him.

In SoD, Xykon showed what he would do:
when Redcloak tried to quit once before, Xykon threatened to destroy Right-Eye's village and all his family unless they all worked for him
Now, if Redcloak were to tell Xykon he was quitting to help build Gobbotopia, Xykon would just destroy Gobbotopia to remove that issue.

So what Redcloak would need is to get Xykon away from Gobbotopia, and then arrange his destruction. Giving control of the gates to the Dark One would be only now secondary to preserving Gobbotopia, and for that, Xykon would need to go. Hence stealing the phylactery.

What if, actually, the "Don't screw this up" command from the Dark One was actually referring to Gobbotopia, now?

Very interesting idea. However, it has been shown that Redcloak doesn't want to leave Xykon, because he's afraid that all the goblins killed by Xykon would have been killed for nothing. Unless, is part of your argument that he wouldn't feel guilty because Xykon was actually necessary for the foundation of Gobbotopia?

[Keltest]

What if, actually, the "Don't screw this up" command from the Dark One was actually referring to Gobbotopia, now?

I doubt it. By that point he was no longer in direct command. It was Jirix's project, so telling redcloak not to screw up through Jirix would be pretty silly.

[DeliaP]

Very interesting idea. However, it has been shown that Redcloak doesn't want to leave Xykon, because he's afraid that all the goblins killed by Xykon would have been killed for nothing. Unless, is part of your argument that he wouldn't feel guilty because Xykon was actually necessary for the foundation of Gobbotopia?

I think when RC looks in the mirror and says "It'll all be worth it. You'll see." (www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html), there's little question in my mind he's feeling guilt over all the goblinoid deaths, and Right-Eye in particular. And that he still wants to believe that the end will justify all that.

However, his sticking with Xykon, and The Plan, because of that guilt, was his state of mind at the end of SoD/start of DCF, and as this thread has been discussing, he's come a long way since then.

All I'm speculating (and totally 'fessing up to the speculative nature of it...) is that what constitute's "the end" that needs justifying to him may have shifted from the Gates to Gobbotopia.

He still needs to accompany Xykon on The Plan to achieve the ends. And, what the hell, if the Dark One gets control of the Gates that's still a win for the goblin races. But it's now secondary to accompanying Xykon to ensure Xykon is removed as a threat. It would also make him more concerned about the possibility of the destruction of the last gate and releasing the Snarl than he had been before. Another thing the "don't screw this up" message might imply: the tightrope on which he is walking has become narrower....


I doubt it. By that point he was no longer in direct command. It was Jirix's project, so telling redcloak not to screw up through Jirix would be pretty silly.

At the time Jirix get's the "don't screw it up" message, Redcloak is still the leader of Gobbotopia (the message is passed on at the time of the handover...) but the message could be as much about Redcloak needing to to remove Xykon as a threat.

Yeah, it's speculative, but then again
if the forums have taught me anything, it's if there isn't direct in-comic evidence against it, then I should believe it to be true. :smallwink:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think when RC looks in the mirror and says "It'll all be worth it. You'll see." (www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0701.html), there's little question in my mind he's feeling guilt over all the goblinoid deaths, and Right-Eye in particular. And that he still wants to believe that the end will justify all that.

However, his sticking with Xykon, and The Plan, because of that guilt, was his state of mind at the end of SoD/start of DCF, and as this thread has been discussing, he's come a long way since then.

All I'm speculating (and totally 'fessing up to the speculative nature of it...) is that what constitute's "the end" that needs justifying to him may have shifted from the Gates to Gobbotopia.

He still needs to accompany Xykon on The Plan to achieve the ends. And, what the hell, if the Dark One gets control of the Gates that's still a win for the goblin races. But it's now secondary to accompanying Xykon to ensure Xykon is removed as a threat.


Yeah, it's speculative, but then again
if the forums have taught me anything, it's if there isn't direct in-comic evidence against it, then I should believe it to be true. :smallwink:
I suppose I can see what you're saying. And as you pointed out, there is technically no evidence against...
What the heck, go for it. :smallbiggrin:

[Copperdragon]

I'd like to add my favourite Redcloak character-growth speculation here....

While this is true I think you missed how much power Xykon has over Redcloak, it's not about threatening others (the spoiler as well as Gobbotopia), but what he did to Redcloak.

Massive Spoiler:
Xykon made him murder his own brother in cold blood to protect Xykon and then talked Redcloak down and made him accept he's spineless. That's a very heavy psycological blow and dwarves the "I will kill others if you do not..."

[DeliaP]

While this is true I think you missed how much power Xykon has over Redcloak, it's not about threatening others (the spoiler as well as Gobbotopia), but what he did to Redcloak.

Massive Spoiler:
Xykon made him murder his own brother in cold blood to protect Xykon and then talked Redcloak down and made him accept he's spineless. That's a very heavy psycological blow and dwarves the "I will kill others if you do not..."

Not even remotely disagreeing with you about the hold Xykon had on RC at the start of DCF.

But, I can just quote Porthos:

What's interesting about that whole section of growth/rediscovery is twofold.

One, it actually started a little bit when Xykon was non-corporeal. Redcloak gets more sassy and starts backtalking. If one wants to look at it from a certain way, it's because the power balance between the two was radically shifted for a time. And by the time Xykon had fully regenerated, the power imbalance didn't go back to what it was.

What's a tad more subtle until it was addressed hundreds of comics later was Xykon's attempt (conscious or not) to corrupt Redcloak. By that I mean all of his little digs and suggestions to make Redcloak act more like, well, Xykon.

Was working beautifully until Redcloak's famous moment of realization.

I think it was that moment when the last shackles of what happened on SoD were finally set aside and Redcloak was his own goblin again.

...

I don't exactly view it as a coincidence that SoD was published right around that time. :smalltongue:
as my response! :smallbiggrin:

Since his epiphany, RC has shown (not in Xykon's presence so much) a great deal of evidence that he is no longer as cowed as he used to be.

[Copperdragon]

Since his epiphany, RC has shown (not in Xykon's presence so much) a great deal of evidence that he is no longer as cowed as he used to be.

Yes, and I also agree to the theory it all started when Xykon got dusted by Dorukan's Seal. But all this character development aside, I think there's still a large bit missing before Redcloak is going to be free enough of Xykon to let it get to any sort of confrontation.
He makes very large steps towards that direction but we must not forget that the latest and so far biggest steps - actually swapping the Phylactery and murdering Tsukiko - was forced upon him.

[Loreweaver15]

Yes, and I also agree to the theory it all started when Xykon got dusted by Dorukan's Seal. But all this character development aside, I think there's still a large bit missing before Redcloak is going to be free enough of Xykon to let it get to any sort of confrontation.
He makes very large steps towards that direction but we must not forget that the latest and so far biggest steps - actually swapping the Phylactery and murdering Tsukiko - was forced upon him.

Murdering Tsukiko was forced upon him; swapping the phylactery was a golden opportunity that he had planned out, hence the duplicate phylactery, the prepared spells, etc.

[Tiiba]

Folks make good points about SoD, but I think a big part of the "real world" reason is that the Giant didn't know what Redcloak's ultimate role would be when he first introduced the character.

I find your lack of faith... Disturbing.

[Sir_Leorik]

Yeah, what happens in SoD leads to Xykon dominating over Redcloak more and more, until we reach the point were he is spineless servant. I would say more but, spoilers...
He starts to come out of this state once he is put back into a position of authority: when he leads over the hobgoblins.


What's interesting about that whole section of growth/rediscovery is twofold.

One, it actually started a little bit when Xykon was non-corporeal. Redcloak gets more sassy and starts backtalking. If one wants to look at it from a certain way, it's because the power balance between the two was radically shifted for a time. And by the time Xykon had fully regenerated, the power imbalance didn't go back to what it was.

What's a tad more subtle until it was addressed hundreds of comics later was Xykon's attempt (conscious or not) to corrupt Redcloak. By that I mean all of his little digs and suggestions to make Redcloak act more like, well, Xykon.

Was working beautifully until Redcloak's famous moment of realization.

I think it was that moment when the last shackles of what happened on SoD were finally set aside and Redcloak was his own goblin again.

...

I don't exactly view it as a coincidence that SoD was published right around that time. :smalltongue:

Redcloak sort of goes on a parallel journey to Roy's in NCftPB. Just like Roy needs to learn to place the good of the party ahead of his own selfishness, Redcloak steps more and more out of Xykon's shadow. Once Roy destroys Xykon's body at the end of DCF, Redcloak becomes the one in charge, with Xykon dependent on Redcloak's kindness to survive. While Xykon later reasserts some of his former control, he never quite dominates Redcloak the way he did post-SoD. Even when he had to cope with Tsukiko's meddling or Xykon's anger, Redcloak was scheming to undermine them. And as we saw in strip #900, Redcloak has no patience for any adventurers getting in the way of the plan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html).


Folks make good points about SoD, but I think a big part of the "real world" reason is that the Giant didn't know what Redcloak's ultimate role would be when he first introduced the character.

In his Introduction to OtOoPCs, Redcloak actually complains that he didn't even have a name until halfway through DCF. :smallwink:

[GAAD]

if the forums have taught me anything, it's if there isn't direct in-comic evidence against it, then I should believe it to be true. :smallwink:

If the forums have taught me anything, it's if there is direct comic evidence against it, then there's a slight chance that it might be false.
MIKO LIVES!!!!!!!

[Trixie]

It's been pointed out that if Gobbotopia succeeds, there isn't really that need for The Plan anymore, as they'll have got what they wanted already: a level playing field and access to resources.

That was wrong point, IMHO. Redcloak isn't dumb, he knows a single city is just not enough, plus, it is very unsafe now. If he managed to conquer it with random, resource starved hobgoblin band, he certainly doesn't believe humans can't take it back. Especially seeing that large fleet of refugees that is probably clamouring everywhere for help. I mean, even if the total economic blockade didn't convince him of that, sight of elven commando band certainly did.

[Rogar Demonblud]

There's no economic blockade. Every major city we've heard of in the Northern Continent is willing to trade with Gobbotopia.

[Trixie]

There's no economic blockade. Every major city we've heard of in the Northern Continent is willing to trade with Gobbotopia.

By 'every' you mean 'places as lawless and poor as Greysky city'? :smallconfused:

He said seventeen nations, but if getting just one good trading partner city is so big a deal, other 16 were probably worthless, and it took him half a year to get that one. How is exactly not being able to trade with anyone not a blockade?

Also, Cliffport recognized goblins only due to feud with elves. Which means they will probably drop the recognition one second after reconciling with them.

[Composer99]

By 'every' you mean 'places as lawless and poor as Greysky city'? :smallconfused:

He said seventeen nations, but if getting just one good trading partner city is so big a deal, other 16 were probably worthless, and it took him half a year to get that one. How is exactly not being able to trade with anyone not a blockade?

Also, Cliffport recognized goblins only due to feud with elves. Which means they will probably drop the recognition one second after reconciling with them.

A blockade implies that other states are actively keeping Gobbotopia isolated from the outside world, e.g. by intercepting or destroying merchant shipping by both land and sea.

There is, to my knowledge, no in-comic evidence that such effort has been organized. The only foreign intervention in favour of Azure City we have seen or heard of was the elven infiltration to aid the Resistance.

There is also, to my knowledge, no in-comic evidence at all regarding the worthiness, or lack thereof, of the states that have recognized Gobbotopia.