two-weapon fighting

[evyldead]

I'm curious, how many attacks would a level 12 fighter ing D&D 3.5 get if he had greater two-weapon fighting?

BAB= 12/6/1

greater two wep fighting= 3 extra attacks (off hand)

does this mean you get 6 attacks off your total BAB or your +12 BAB?

would it look something like 12/8/6/2/1/-8 ????
or something else?

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, is he using a light off hand weapon?

[evyldead]

bastard swords. because they're cool.

[KnotKnormal]

main hand +12/+7/+2
off hand +12/+7/+2 +10/+5/+0... i think... darn i just built this and i cant remember.

assuming of course you plan to take the next hit to the face by making a full attack.

Ignore this I forgot to math

[evyldead]

But it says in improved two wep fighting you take a -5 on the second offhand and great says -10 on third offhand....

[Prince Raven]

If his off-hand weapon is light, his attack progression would be 10/10/5/5/0/0.
So you've got 10/5/0 from your primary weapon, and 10/5/0 from your off-hand weapon.

[KnotKnormal]

But it says in improved two wep fighting you take a -5 on the second offhand and great says -10 on third offhand....

yes so your first attack is at your full BAB -4 for not being light. so +8 so the next would be -5 off that so +3 then -10 off full BAB so -2.

so main hand would be +10/+5/+0
and off hand would be +8/+3/-2

[evyldead]

If his off hand weapon is light, his attack progression would be 10/10/5/5/0/0.

But its not.... Its one handed weapon, Bastard Sword. so then what would the amount be ?

EDIT: so total would be 10/8/5/3/0/-2 ???

[KnotKnormal]

But its not.... Its one handed weapon, Bastard Sword. so then what would the amount be ?

EDIT: so total would be 10/8/5/3/0/-2 ???

yes that... sorry for the confusion however there are feats you can take to use it as a light weapon, I'll look them up and get back to you, It's important for a TWF to have as high a BAB as possible and to deal as much damage as possible per attack... the main problem with martial characters is they get wrecked by DR.

[Rijan_Sai]

If his off-hand weapon is light, his attack progression would be 10/10/5/5/0/0.
So you've got 10/5/0 from your primary weapon, and 10/5/0 from your off-hand weapon.

This, but since hou said 2 B. Swords, it would be:
8/8/3/3/-2/-2

You take a -4 to your attack with the TWF feat if the off-hand is not light; if it is, the penalty is reduced to -2

Relavent rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting)

Edit: slightly swordsage'd, but do note that both hands have the same attack bonus, with penalties based on whether you have the feat, and if the off-hand is light.

[evyldead]

Oh no no no theres no confusion from you guys. haha. The feat confused the hell out of me for some reason.

[Gavinfoxx]

You do know that this is one of the weakest methods of fighting in the game?

You need:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Bastard Sword
Two Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting

to even consider doing this, and even then, you are behind in damage to someone who is just two handing a simple club with Power Attack. The game HATES YOU for having the GALL to consider that fighting with two bastard swords is cool. Heaven forbid you might want to actually fight with two LARGE SIZED bastard swords (!!). Understand?

[Prince Raven]

You suffer a -4 penalty to both hands for not wielding a light weapon in your off hand, so your attack progression would be 8/8/3/3/-2/-2.

EDIT: Ninja'd http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2194/therklaln0.png

[Gavinfoxx]

Read my responses here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243535

Especially where I do math. To make two weapon fighting work, you need extra dice or bonuses of PER HIT damage, like from a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard or a Rogue doing Sneak Attack.

[KnotKnormal]

You do know that this is one of the weakest methods of fighting in the game?

You need:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Bastard Sword
Two Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting

to even consider doing this, and even then, you are behind in damage to someone who is just two handing a simple club with Power Attack. The game HATES YOU for having the GALL to consider that fighting with two bastard swords is cool. Heaven forbid you might want to actually fight with two LARGE SIZED bastard swords (!!). Understand?

second this. If you really want to do this i would instead suggest doing it with large martial weapons (rapiers or Scimitars for the crit range) and use monkey grip with oversized TWF. also i would consider looking at ranger because you gain some of the TWF feats automatically and favored enemy can come in handy when you know the setting of the campaign. I would love to build you a few characters and see if you like any of them.

[Rijan_Sai]

You do know that this is one of the weakest methods of fighting in the game?

You need:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Bastard Sword
Two Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting

to even consider doing this, and even then, you are behind in damage to someone who is just two handing a simple club with Power Attack. The game HATES YOU for having the GALL to consider that fighting with two bastard swords is cool. Heaven forbid you might want to actually fight with two LARGE SIZED bastard swords (!!). Understand?

I don't believe that you would need OTWF for this, since EWP:BS allows you to wield it one-handed.* I could be wrong...

The rest is pretty much true, though...

*sorry for all the acronyms...posting on my phone.

[KnotKnormal]

Read my responses here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243535

Especially where I do math. To make two weapon fighting work, you need extra dice or bonuses of PER HIT damage, like from a Dragonfire Inspiration Bard or a Rogue doing Sneak Attack.

I prefer skirmish

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm saying DO NOT use Monkey Grip or Large Sized weapons because the game hates you for wanting to do that too!!!

Seriously. ALL these feats are crap:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
Two Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Monkey Grip.


You know what I would do if I had those feats for free?

Ignore them and wield a medium Guisarme and Armor Spikes. Possibly a Greatsword and Armor Spikes to two weapon fight with the medium Greatsword and Armor Spikes. And try to retrain something --anything!-- out for Power Attack.

And you DO need OTWF to reduce the penalties on a Bastard Sword for it being not a light weapon. Again, the game HATES YOU for having the gall to consider that this is cool!

[KnotKnormal]

I don't believe that you would need OTWF for this, since EWP:BS allows you to wield it one-handed.* I could be wrong...

The rest is pretty much true, though...

*sorry for all the acronyms...posting on my phone.

the oversized TWF is so the Bastard Sword can be treated as a light weapon. thus reducing the penalty from -4 to -2

[Gavinfoxx]

Anyway, OP, you need to rethink what is considered good damage. Here's a thing that tells you what damage you can get if you work with the things that the system doesn't hate you for doing



Human, Spirit Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 9 (Wolf Totem and Knock Down and Knockback optional)

Feats:
1. Power Attack
Hu: Battle Jump
3: Improved Bull Rush
6: Shock Trooper
9: Leap Attack

Items of note: A +1 Baatorian Greensteel Gloryborn Valorous Greatsword (a +2-equivalent weapon with a bit of money invested in the mundane parts).
A +2 Enhancement item of strength.

Assumptions: He starts with an 18 strength and he puts his level 4 and 8 bonus to strength, and he maxxes Jump.

Here is his attack routine on a Whirling Frenzy-enabled Heedless Charge, jumping at the enemy to enable Battle Jump, with Leap Attack, with full power attack, at level 9:

Attack 1:
26 str (+8)
-2 to hit from whirling frenzy
+9 bab to hit
+1 enhancement to hit
+2 charge

Damage: 2d6
+1 enhancement
+12 strength (8 +4)
+1 Gloryborn
+27 with a Leap Attack Power Attack (9*3, via leap attack, rather than 9*1.5)
+1 from Greensteel

Multiplier x3 = Battle Jump (x2) + Valorous (x2)

(So a 2d6 changes into 6d6 after the x3 multiplier)

Damage on first attack is 6d6+126

So +18/6d6+126
or an average of 147 damage.

Attack 2:
26 str (+8)
-2 to hit from whirling frenzy
+9 bab to hit
+1 enhancement to hit
+2 charge

This is the same as the first attack, so +18/6d6+126
again, an average of 147 damage.

Attack 3:
28 str (+8)
-2 to hit from whirling frenzy
+4 bab to hit
+1 enhancement to hit
+2 Charge

+13 to hit

Damage:
Damage: 2d6
+1 enhancement
+12 strength (8 +4)
+1 Gloryborn
+27 with a Leap Attack Power Attack (9*3, via leap attack, rather than 9*1.5)
+1 from Greensteel

So this is +13/6d6+126
again, an average of 147 damage.

So 441 damage at level 9, while relatively under-equipped (you should have higher strength and better gear).

[KnotKnormal]

I'm saying DO NOT use Monkey Grip or Large Sized weapons because the game hates you for wanting to do that too!!!

Seriously. ALL these feats are crap:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword
Two Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Monkey Grip.


You know what I would do if I had those feats for free?

Ignore them and wield a medium Guisarme and Armor Spikes. Possibly a Greatsword and Armor Spikes to two weapon fight with the medium Greatsword and Armor Spikes.

And you DO need OTWF to reduce the penalties on a Bastard Sword for it being not a light weapon. Again, the game HATES YOU for having the gall to consider that this is cool!

I disagree. I'm currently playing a TWF Dervish that can keep up with just about any mid to high op build

[Ramza00]

Sun sword is a bastard sword that you can treat as a short sword (a light weapon), thus with ewp bastard sword you can dual wield bastard swords at -2

There is also the sun blade is in the srd but the sun sword is much better and is in expedition to castle ravenloft as a weapon of legacy. You do not have to activate the legacy yet you can keep the short sword benefit for 3000 gp

[Gavinfoxx]

I disagree. I'm currently playing a TWF Dervish that can keep up with just about any mid to high op build

And your source of bonus damage is coming from where? I bet the OP is making a Fighter. I am just saying, 'all things being equal, unless you are in a niche build, two weapon fighting is crap'.

[eggynack]

I disagree. I'm currently playing a TWF Dervish that can keep up with just about any mid to high op build
I'm pretty doubtful, honestly, especially if you start comparing to the real heavy hitters in the melee world. Moreover, while you may need the feat TWF to be an effective dervish, and while that feat has its place in some builds, you can't really say the same for those other listed feats.

[evyldead]

Anyway, OP, you need to rethink what is considered good damage. Here's a thing that tells you what damage you can get if you work with the things that the system doesn't hate you for doing



Human, Spirit Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 9 (Wolf Totem and Knock Down and Knockback optional)

Feats:
1. Power Attack
Hu: Battle Jump
3: Improved Bull Rush
6: Shock Trooper
9: Leap Attack

Items of note: A +1 Baatorian Greensteel Gloryborn Valorous Greatsword (a +2-equivalent weapon with a bit of money invested in the mundane parts).
A +2 Enhancement item of strength.

Assumptions: He starts with an 18 strength and he puts his level 4 and 8 bonus to strength, and he maxxes Jump.

Here is his attack routine on a Whirling Frenzy-enabled Heedless Charge, jumping at the enemy to enable Battle Jump, with Leap Attack, with full power attack, at level 9:

Attack 1:
26 str (+8)
-2 to hit from whirling frenzy
+9 bab to hit
+1 enhancement to hit
+2 charge

Damage: 2d6
+1 enhancement
+12 strength (8 +4)
+1 Gloryborn
+27 with a Leap Attack Power Attack (9*3, via leap attack, rather than 9*1.5)
+1 from Greensteel

Multiplier x3 = Battle Jump (x2) + Valorous (x2)

(So a 2d6 changes into 6d6 after the x3 multiplier)

Damage on first attack is 6d6+126

So +18/6d6+126
or an average of 147 damage.

Attack 2:
26 str (+8)
-2 to hit from whirling frenzy
+9 bab to hit
+1 enhancement to hit
+2 charge

This is the same as the first attack, so +18/6d6+126
again, an average of 147 damage.

Attack 3:
28 str (+8)
-2 to hit from whirling frenzy
+4 bab to hit
+1 enhancement to hit
+2 Charge

+13 to hit

Damage:
Damage: 2d6
+1 enhancement
+12 strength (8 +4)
+1 Gloryborn
+27 with a Leap Attack Power Attack (9*3, via leap attack, rather than 9*1.5)
+1 from Greensteel

So this is +13/6d6+126
again, an average of 147 damage.

So 441 damage at level 9, while relatively under-equipped (you should have higher strength and better gear).



I honestly get what your saying. I just wanted to know cuz if you add karmic strike + double hit (+ Robilar's Gambit- I dont think it stacks with karmic strike) equals to about 6 hits on them plus whenever they hit you say 3 times which would be 6 more times so damage for this would be around 6d10+48 (using your 26 str of +8 mod) total base. so yea yours does more damage mine is more time consuming but idk it always apealed to me to make more attacks lol.

[KnotKnormal]

And your source of bonus damage is coming from where? I bet the OP is making a Fighter. I am just saying, 'all things being equal, unless you are in a niche build, two weapon fighting is crap'.

coming from scout and ranger with the feat swift hunter and Improved Skirmish. +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6 @ +6d6+42 and with a few magical buff from our friendly neighbor hood spell weaver id become +8D6+76 per attack while never being hit and a crit fishing range of 17-20

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want to make lots of attacks with two weapon fighting, wield a greatsword and armor spikes, or if your dexterity is high, a rapier and short sword (maybe feycraft or with weapon finesse), provided you have a source of bonus damage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I honestly get what your saying. I just wanted to know cuz if you add karmic strike + double hit (+ Robilar's Gambit- I dont think it stacks with karmic strike) equals to about 6 hits on them plus whenever they hit you say 3 times which would be 6 more times so damage for this would be around 6d10+48 (using your 26 str of +8 mod) total base. so yea yours does more damage mine is more time consuming but idk it always apealed to me to make more attacks lol.

I think you're looking for Jack B. Quick (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=6944.0).

[Gavinfoxx]

OP, if you want to make lots of attacks, read this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595

[Barmoz]

The only way I have been able to make a twf build I was happy with without going out to level 40+ was with gestalt.

Here's a build I've worked that I'm playing now, currently level 10. Full BAB, two extra attacks from flurry and 10d6 sneak attack. Hustle for move action and full attack, plus provoking as many AoO as I can for ripostes and I'm pretty happy with him.

Add speed on both weapons, and as soon as I roll over to 21 Sneak Attack of Opportunity, he'll be a Jack B Quick on steroids. Had to use flaws for extra feats, and had to do a psy war dip for feats as well, but he's a solid twf, without having to go tempest or dervish.

1 Fighter 1 Monk 1 Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus Longsword, Monastic Training, EWP Thinblade, Talashatar
2 Fighter 2 Monk 2 Dodge, Combat Reflexes
3 Fighter 3 Psion 1 Combat Expertise, Expanded Knowledge: Vampiric Blade
4 Fighter 4 Psion 2 Weapon Specialization
5 Fighter 5 Psion 3 Whirling Steel
6 Fighter 6 Psychic Warrior 1 Karmic Strike, Imp Two Weapon Fighting, Double Hit
7 Fighter 7 Psychic Warrior 2 Deft Opportunist
8 Fighter 8 Psion 4 Daring Warrior
9 Swashbuckler 1 Rogue 1 Daring Outlaw, Weapon Finesse
10 Rogue 2 Psion 5 Practiced Manifester
11 Fighter 9 Psion 6
12 Fighter 10 Psion 7 Robilar's Gambit, Craven
13 Rogue 3 Psion 8
14 Swashbuckler 2 Psion 9
15 Swashbuckler 3 Rogue 4 Melee Weapon Mastery
16 Swashbuckler 4 Rogue 5
17 Swashbuckler 5 Rogue 6
18 Swashbuckler 6 Rogue 7 Greater Two Weapon Fighting
19 Swashbuckler 7 Rogue 8
20 Swashbuckler 8 Rogue 9

[OldTrees1]

You do know that this is one of the weakest methods of fighting in the game?

You need:

Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Bastard Sword
Two Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting

to even consider doing this, and even then, you are behind in damage to someone who is just two handing a simple club with Power Attack. The game HATES YOU for having the GALL to consider that fighting with two bastard swords is cool. Heaven forbid you might want to actually fight with two LARGE SIZED bastard swords (!!). Understand?

Perhaps it is wise to respect the OP? They said they wanted to dual wield bastard swords. Suggesting they twohand a greatclub is as unhelpful as suggesting they eat a fish.

[eggynack]

Perhaps it is wise to respect the OP? They said they wanted to dual wield bastard swords. Suggesting they twohand a greatclub is as unhelpful as suggesting they eat a fish.
I think his point was to just not do this specific thing, which is wielding suboptimal weapons in a suboptimal manner. Folks have posted some reasonable builds that meet the plan halfway, ditching the bastard sword aspect in favor of some less crappy weapons, and sticking some stuff to incentivize TWF on top of that. It seems reasonable enough to me.

[OldTrees1]

I think his point was to just not do this specific thing, which is wielding suboptimal weapons in a suboptimal manner. Folks have posted some reasonable builds that meet the plan halfway, ditching the bastard sword aspect in favor of some less crappy weapons, and sticking some stuff to incentivize TWF on top of that. It seems reasonable enough to me.

The other posters were able to convey the cons of the OP's plan without being disrespectful to the OP.

[eggynack]

The other posters were able to convey the cons of the OP's plan without being disrespectful to the OP.
That's really more of a style thing than a content thing, I think. I thought the posts were reasonably styled, if a bit aggressive, though it's certainly a matter of opinion.

[Sir Chuckles]

That's really more of a style thing than a content thing, I think. I thought the posts were reasonably styled, if a bit aggressive, though it's certainly a matter of opinion.

I'm going to have to go with:
"The only way to truly lose at DnD is to ruin or impeded other player's fun."

It's why I don't say anything when my munchkin plays a Monk 21, or why I am ultimately ok my Lawful Arse player rage quitting my group. Telling someone how to play is...poor form. Especially when it's "you should ditch your idea completely".

So, yes, you SHOULD take Oversized TWF, to make your offhand sword count as a light weapon.

[Prince Raven]

D&D is a cooperative game, being underpowered isn't really that big of a deal.

[Gavinfoxx]

D&D is a cooperative game, being underpowered isn't really that big of a deal. so not pulling your weight in a party is a big deal.

Fixed that for you....

[TrueJordan]

I'm really bad with the TWF rule; can someone help me? If I'm an 8th level fighter with a +8 str and greater two weapon fighting, is that 4 attacks? 5?
Thanks for the helpage

[OldTrees1]

I'm really bad with the TWF rule; can someone help me? If I'm an 8th level fighter with a +8 str and greater two weapon fighting, is that 4 attacks? 5?
Thanks for the helpage

Well at 8th level you should have Improved Two Weapon Fighting (Greater Two Weapon Fighting is the 3rd feat and is generally considered not worth it for dualwielders)

BAB of +8 gives your primary hand 2 attacks. You get a single attack with your off hand plus 1 extra attack since you have Improved Two Weapon Fighting.

Since you have +8 Str you will either attack as

Primary +14/+9 & Light Off Hand +14/+9
or
Primary +12/+7 & One Handed Off Hand +12/+7

[Gavinfoxx]

I'm really bad with the TWF rule; can someone help me? If I'm an 8th level fighter with a +8 str and greater two weapon fighting, is that 4 attacks? 5?
Thanks for the helpage
What weapons are you wielding and what is your exact feat list?

[TrueJordan]

Ah, yeah, I meant improved.
Fighting with two warhammers, dunno if that makes a difference

[OldTrees1]

Ah, yeah, I meant improved.
Fighting with two warhammers, dunno if that makes a difference

Warhammers are one-handed so you take a -4 penalty (instead of the -2 penalty for a light off hand weapon)

Primary +12/+7 & One Handed Off Hand +12/+7

[ericgrau]

If you want to wield twin bastard swords then get oversized TWF. Two weapon pounce helps out your first round attack. This will do well enough in a typical group even though there are high optimization options that do way more than TWF. On a straight fighter too. Still much better than a TWF rogue even with his sneak attack, because the rogue also has medium BAB, d6 HD and light armor. Or get the best of both with this variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) if your DM allows. It's a bit feat starved though, so without flaws you may still want regular fighter.

[Gavinfoxx]

Ah, yeah, I meant improved.
Fighting with two warhammers, dunno if that makes a difference

It means you need another feat to not suck terribly. Oversized Two Weapon Fighting. And it makes it a super, super weak fighting style, since feats are there to help you kick asks, not suck slightly less, like these feats do. Read the link I posted earlier in this thread.

[Ramza00]

Gavinfoxx can you tone it down some? I agree some choices by the OP are not optimal and it is okay to make suggestions otherwise and to show the math behind the mechanics.

But do we really need to hear you say, your feats are crap, you are not pulling your weight, feats are there to help you kick asks not suck, etc.

Your word choice is very negative and confrontational. Just because something is not optimal doesn't mean you have to demean it.

[tricktroller]

Hey OP!

Look here is some information for you that you might not have been aware of from the beginning.

On these forums, you will always have someone who says, "Its not tier 1? It sucks and its stupid!"

Screw them. Play what you want. I have played several dual bastard sword wielders in my time playing DnD and I loved them!

It is less optimal than the uber charger but if you are playing to always win all the time so I only ever play anything but wizards, well then you might as well play WoW instead.

The most fun characters I have ever made were all completely unoptimized. The only time optimization really comes in to play anyways is mid-high level. So until you hit 14th-20th level a dual bastard sword wielder will do just fine.

[Gavinfoxx]

My words are confrontational because missing all the time and never dealing enough damage to get past DR, let alone stand to to toe to monsters the game expects you to as a front line combatant is not fun. Like it or not, this is a game with a Par and mathematical minimums of effectiveness in fighting monsters at or around your CR.

[tricktroller]

then obviously it is up to you as a player to convey this to your DM and try to reach some kind of compromise. I kicked the crap out of plenty of things when I played my dual wielder. And right now I am a sword and board cleric with EWP bastard sword, augment healing, I took Leadership at 6th but I don't keep my cohort or followers with me. They are rebuilding my Fortress Temple.

Its as simple as dual wielding a pair of shock acid bastard swords or just get a few crystals of energy assault lesser for each sword and swap out if there are immunities from the enemy.

[Gavinfoxx]

It's sounds like you are above WBL. Have you checked and done an itemization? Also, you are a Cleric. Cleric is so powerful at self buffing you can do silly thematic stuff and still hit things. Less so, Fighter.

[tricktroller]

I am not above wealth by level and I don't just buff myself. I buff the whole party rather than single target buffs and I heal. I am not optimized but I always have fun with the personality of Sir Chandler of Aarinoth. I don't know why you are so dead set against sub optimal builds.

It's as simple as talking to your DM about being courteous, and if your DM is a big enough douche to say something along the lines of "its your own fault for not optimizing" then I would quit playing with that DM after throwing his own DMG at his head.

DnD isn't about "winning" its about playing the damn game with people you like. If you think that DnD only comes down to the number and rolls then you are missing the intent of the game, which I suppose is right up your alley since you look for ways to abuse RAW instead of following RAI when you are optimizing.

[TrueJordan]

I am not above wealth by level and I don't just buff myself. I buff the whole party rather than single target buffs and I heal. I am not optimized but I always have fun with the personality of Sir Chandler of Aarinoth. I don't know why you are so dead set against sub optimal builds.

It's as simple as talking to your DM about being courteous, and if your DM is a big enough douche to say something along the lines of "its your own fault for not optimizing" then I would quit playing with that DM after throwing his own DMG at his head.

DnD isn't about "winning" its about playing the damn game with people you like. If you think that DnD only comes down to the number and rolls then you are missing the intent of the game, which I suppose is right up your alley since you look for ways to abuse RAW instead of following RAI when you are optimizing.

I agree with this for the most part, though if you're a numbers guy like myself and clearly Gavin, there's a beauty in optimizing as well; designing the 'best' character you can differs from person to person.
In Gavin's defense, clearly he's not all about optimizing completely, since he is talking about the melee classes...

[tricktroller]

Don't get me wrong, I like writing up optimizations, its like a very complex puzzle and I understand the beauty in building the perfect character, however that isn't the only way to play. Acting like you are a bad player/person simply because you choose a suboptimal path is not only beyond the intent of the game it is rude.

Being a **** because someone wants to play a character idea you don't like is ridiculous, not to mention childish.

And to be perfectly clear, me berating Gavinfox is not being a ****. I don't think he plays crap choices for optimizing, I think his attitude is crappy.

[OldTrees1]

My words are confrontational because missing all the time and never dealing enough damage to get past DR, let alone stand to to toe to monsters the game expects you to as a front line combatant is not fun. Like it or not, this is a game with a Par and mathematical minimums of effectiveness in fighting monsters at or around your CR.

So since a style of play is not fun, you have to be confrontational towards anyone interested in that style of play? You have to actively try to de-facto ban dual wielding for everyone just because you did not like it?

Please consider how rude, ineffective and unhelpful you are being.

You do not have the right to attack the OP for wanting to do something you personally dislike. Your confrontational posts are very attack like.

[SinsI]

I wonder if there are any variant rules that make two-weapon fighting grant extra Parry instead of extra attacks. At least that's what Wikipedia article on Dual Wield make me think:


Due the positioning of the body and the need to maintain balance, the use of two weapons requires the practitioner to use one weapon offensively and the other defensively. To perform an attack by the defensive weapon after the first, the user needs to perform a separate and distinct action.[1] The main advantage of using two weapons is the user can use one as a holding weapon after contact is made and use the other to attack the open area of the opponent.

[OldTrees1]

I wonder if there are any variant rules that make two-weapon fighting grant extra Parry instead of extra attacks. At least that's what Wikipedia article on Dual Wield make me think:

Yes, but they were terrible.
Off Hand Parry was a feat that gave you +2 AC if you took the TWF penalties but did not attack with your off hand.
It was buffed when it became the Two Weapon Defense feat chain. Which is still not worth considering for dual wielders.

[eggynack]

Yes, but they were terrible.
Off Hand Parry was a feat that gave you +2 AC if you took the TWF penalties but did not attack with your off hand.
It was buffed when it became the Two Weapon Defense feat chain. Which is still not worth considering for dual wielders.
Wow, it's crazy to think that TWD could be a buffed version of anything. Those feats are just so bad.

[tricktroller]

I always thought the easiest way to fix TWD was to let your weapons enhancement bonus count to your shield bonus, but only from one weapon.

[OldTrees1]

I always thought the easiest way to fix TWD was to let your weapons enhancement bonus count to your shield bonus, but only from one weapon.

As far as +numbers feats go*, that looks weak-fair. It is fair if you have reliable access to Greater Magic Weapon(spell).

*Generally I have to play a straight classed fighter to run out of +stuff feats and have to start taking the weaker +numbers feats.

[tricktroller]

well in all honesty having done sword fighting I can tell you fighting someone who actually knows how to fight with two weapons is extremely difficult without a reach weapon and even then it can be rough. I think there should be some sort of reworking for the mechanic itself, like enemies get a -2 to -4 to defend against a twf character and the twf gets a +2 bonus to Ac, as long as he attacks with both weapons in a round. That way in a round of attacking with only one weapon you are easier to defend against and easier to hit, but in a round where you are a whirling wall of hurt you are pretty scary.

[OldTrees1]

well in all honesty having done sword fighting I can tell you fighting someone who actually knows how to fight with two weapons is extremely difficult without a reach weapon and even then it can be rough. I think there should be some sort of reworking for the mechanic itself, like enemies get a -2 to -4 to defend against a twf character and the twf gets a +2 bonus to Ac, as long as he attacks with both weapons in a round. That way in a round of attacking with only one weapon you are easier to defend against and easier to hit, but in a round where you are a whirling wall of hurt you are pretty scary.

I'm with you. Two weapons should be hard to defend against. However AC would need to be reworked so it was actually useful at higher level. Then you could add in TWF having some advantage on accuracy.

[tricktroller]

lol well I am working on redoing the system into something that I feel is a bit more balanced and makes more sense in the real world. I understand some people will freak out about adding realism to the game, but there are so many things that are completely terrible in the game that just are amazing in the real world. For instance Spears!

[eggynack]

I don't think that reducing the opponent's AC necessarily makes sense. It may be harder to defend against someone with two weapons, but it's also harder to hit someone when you're using two weapons. Reducing AC isn't really a logical game object when you can use the mechanism of increasing to-hit, so you'd presumably just be altering the existing attack penalty. Thus, the question becomes whether the existing penalty adequately balances out the loss in ability to hit with the increase in defense difficulty, and it probably does that reasonably well. I could see just dropping the penalty altogether, but extra AC shrinkage just seems like an over-complication.

[OldTrees1]

but it's also harder to hit someone when you're using two weapons.

Is it? Your hits are not as strong but it seems fairly easy to slide a blow in from my limited* experience.

*My friends hit each other with sticks in the backyard.

Having twice the d20 rolls seems like a better representation of the increased accuracy. So maybe removing the TWF penalties and give everyone Perfect Two Weapon Fighting.

[eggynack]

Is it? Your hits are not as strong but it seems fairly easy to slide a blow in from my limited* experience.

I would think so, yeah. At least that's my understanding of the situation.

Having twice the d20 rolls seems like a better representation of the increased accuracy. So maybe removing the TWF penalties and give everyone Perfect Two Weapon Fighting.
That seems like a logical enough thing, and I think it's a rather common one as well. You just have the feat TWF activate each feat in the line when it becomes relevant, and also drop all of the penalties. I dunno if I'd allow doubled attacks for non-iteratives, as perfect grants, but it'd likely not be problematic. TWF is still usually worse than THF, even after you do that stuff.

[Sir Chuckles]

The general fix I like for TWF is to condense the whole line into one feat that scales.

I, personally, also houserule a 0/0 penalty if BOTH weapons you're using are light. My players like to go dual Sai or punching daggers, and they usually forget that TWF has penalties anyway.

Overall, TWF is fun but not so functional. Key word: fun. D&D is meant to be fun. And if nobody is playing the numbers game in your group, you can have fun in just about any way you want.

[Gavinfoxx]

My main complaint is that these are not combined into, say, one or two feats, total. That automatically scale as you level. If that was the case, two weapon fighting might be okay.

The feats:

Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Defense
Dual Strike
Improved Two Weapon Defense
Greater Two Weapon Defense
Two Weapon Attack of Opportunity
Two Weapon Pounce
Two Weapon Rend
Double Hit

[OldTrees1]

My main complaint is that these are not combined into, say, one or two feats, total. That automatically scale as you level. If that was the case, two weapon fighting might be okay.

You miscounted: Efficient TWF is the following 3 components
1) Two Weapon Fighting
2) Barbarian (Spirit Lion) 1
3) Gloves of the Balanced Hand

[Gavinfoxx]

You miscounted: Efficient TWF is the following 3 components
1) Two Weapon Fighting
2) Barbarian (Spirit Lion) 1
3) Gloves of the Balanced Hand

*laughs* I suppose so!

[animewatcha]

Is the OP still active in this thread? If so, can these questions be answered? is Dragon magazine allowed? If so, what about a retrain?

[tricktroller]

Here is how I plan to redo TWF in the game I will be running next where I try some alternate rules.

All penalties stay the same, but the wielder may make an attack with both weapons when a single attack would be allowed (AoO, Charge, Standard Action)(Also I stole this part from the boards) upon gaining an iterative atttack you ghain an attack with your offhand as well (so fighters get 8 attacks at 16th level pre haste where they will get 10)(speed can be placed on both weapons to give you an extra attack on each hand during a full attack)

This also allows someone wielding a light or heavy shield to make a shield bash attack without losing their shield bonus to AC. Light shields are counted as light weapons, heavy shields are counter as one handed, Tower Shield are counted as two handed weapons.

Also I plan to make mithral and Adamantine rare in my world but give them a few extra things they can do.

Mithral (Ripped from the boards)
Bypasses Dr/Silver
Weapons :
Light - can wield this weapon as if you had weapon finesse.
One Handed - Counts as light or one handed weapon at user's discretion.
Two Handed - Counts as One handed or Two handed at user's discretion.

Adamantine (mine)
Weapons
All : Enhancements to weapon cost only 75% normal cost

So a +1 Adamantine sword only costs 1,500gp, +2 6,000, +3 13,500, etc

[SinsI]

Another problem with two-weapon fighting is that you need to buy two weapons instead of one. Which gets ridiculous if you think about all the other modifications you need - cold iron, silver, bludgeoning....

So, idea:
What if the weapon bonus was applied not to the attack bonus made with that weapon, but to the melee attack bonus of the user?

It would mean that you only need one +5 weapon, while the secondary one can be much cheaper, maybe even nonmagic.
It would also give TWF a great boost - sure, your main +5 weapon will still be affected by the enemy's DR, but you can switch secondary one to an appropriate type for the monster.

[Fitz10019]

Has anyone tried the alternate route to 2WF, with shield use? It doesn't require Dex or being a Ranger in light armor.


Shield Proficiency (PHB, or class proficiency)
Improved Shield Bash (PHB) [retain shield AC even after bashing with it]
Shield Specialization (PHB2) [shield AC increases by 1]
Agile Shield Fighter (PHB2) [get 2WF at -2 per attack when using a shield and a 1-handed weapon]

It's a dead-end because you couldn't go into Improved 2-Weapon Fighting from there, but I'm considering it for a level 6 1-shot game (low opt).

[OldTrees1]

Has anyone tried the alternate route to 2WF, with shield use? It doesn't require Dex or being a Ranger in light armor.


Shield Proficiency (PHB, or class proficiency)
Improved Shield Bash (PHB) [retain shield AC even after bashing with it]
Shield Specialization (PHB2) [shield AC increases by 1]
Agile Shield Fighter (PHB2) [get 2WF at -2 per attack when using a shield and a 1-handed weapon]

It's a dead-end because you couldn't go into Improved 2-Weapon Fighting from there, but I'm considering it for a level 6 1-shot game (low opt).

I have heard good things about the Shield fighter.

Finish it off with
Shield Charge (CW) [If your shield hits on a charge, make a trip attack]
Shield Slam (CW) ["As a full-round action or as a charge action" Fort Save or Daze]

Honestly, I have never had a problem reaching the 15Dex for TWF. (And ITWF does not have prerequisites if picked up with the Gloves of Balanced Hand)

[Fitz10019]

I scorn your good advice!

I'm going to ruin the BAB and iterative attack by taking Rogue levels for Sneak Attack. Rogue in Full-Plate. Sneak Attack in a can.



[clang, clang]
Orc: Are you trying to sneak up on me?
Rogue: [clang, clang] Almost there...
Orc: Seriously?
Rogue: [clang, clang] Made it! Now, close your eyes or balance on one leg.