Martial Study Question

[Dudze]

Sorry if this has been asked before but I've been looking for awhile and I can't find it.

Now from what I've read here and on other sites: Martial Study allows a character of any class to take a Martial Maneuver, including those belonging to "Shadow Hand," "Stone Dragon" and so forth, without taking levels in Swordsage, Warblade or Crusader; however, the character must have any valid prerequisites to the Martial Maneuver, usually other maneuvers.

So assuming all that is true my question is this: What prevents a character from using this to get higher level maneuvers like "Death in the Dark," or "Shadow Stride," which are blatantly over powered for the cost of one feat at any level. :smalleek:

My assumption is that you would need to be at least the appropriate Character Level to use the maneuver; however, I can't/don't know where, to find anything to this effect.

[Kaje]

You have to have a certain Initiator Level to take a given maneuver.

[eggynack]

As an addendum, any level in a non-initiating class counts as half of an initiator level, which is how non-initiators can take feats that require an initiator level.

[Zetapup]

You have to have a certain Initiator Level to take a given maneuver.

Yup, characters without any levels in a class that uses manuevers (warblade, crusader, and swordsage) have an initiator level of one half their character level. For example, an 8th level fighter would have an initiator level of 4 and be able to select 2nd level manuevers. A warblade 2/barbarian 6 would have an initiator level of 5 and be able to select 3rd level manuevers. This information can be found on page 39 of ToB, if you need any more clarification.

[Dudze]

Thanks for the expedient answers. :smallsmile:

[Dudze]

This information can be found on page 39 of ToB, if you need any more clarification.

Went ahead and read that. Just to make sure I'm thinking this through clearly.

You get half your non-initiator class level as Initiator levels.
You get Maneuvers level half (rounded down) of your initiator level.
You get Maneuvers level half (rounded up_ of your initiator level.

[Gemini476]

Went ahead and read that. Just to make sure I'm thinking this through clearly.

You get half your non-initiator class level as Initiator levels.
You get Maneuvers level half (rounded down) of your initiator level.

You get new levels of maneuvers at pretty much the same rate as a Wizard gets new levels of spells. 1st at 1st, 2nd at 3rd, 3rd at 5th etc.

[Zetapup]

Went ahead and read that. Just to make sure I'm thinking this through clearly.

You get half your non-initiator class level as Initiator levels.
You get Maneuvers level half (rounded down) of your initiator level.
You get Maneuvers level half (rounded up_ of your initiator level.

You get one manuever, which can be any level from the levels you can pick one. For example, a fighter takes martial study at 18th level (initiator level 9) and could choose one manuever of 5th level or lower. If the fighter takes martial study at, say, 10th level (initiator level 5), they'd only have access to manuevers of level 3 or below. I think you've got it though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So in answer to your original question, there are two things that get between a non-initiator and a higher level maneuver:

Initiator level; at the given rate non-initiators are restricted to 5th level and lower maneuvers.

Prerequisites; -most- maneuvers above first level, and even some first level maneuvers, require that you have one or more other maneuvers from the same discipline. Getting to higher level maneuvers will require burning multiple feats on martial study and/or martial stance, usually.

[Firechanter]

Note that you also have to meet any prerequisites, i.e. "this many [Discipline] maneuvers. So a Fighter 10 can't just grab any 3rd level maneuver -- most of them have 1 maneuver prereq which he'd have to meet first.

Of course, it's much smarter to be a Martial Adept mainly, and dip a few Fighter levels if you really need some extra feats.

edit: swordsaged

[Curmudgeon]

You get new levels of maneuvers at pretty much the same rate as a Wizard gets new levels of spells. 1st at 1st, 2nd at 3rd, 3rd at 5th etc.
Sorry, but that's incorrect for non-martial adepts. Wizard spellcasting rounds up the level in its computation, but that's not the way things work if you don't have any martial adept levels.
Rounding Fractions

In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger.

Exception: Certain rolls, such as damage and hit points, have a minimum of 1. If you have no martial adept levels you take half your character level and round down. So a Fighter 1 would have an IL of 0, not 1.

[ddude987]

I hate to start this argument, but RAW, nothing prevents you from taking super high leveled maneuvers. Nowhere in Tome of Battle does it say initiator level is a prerequisite for maneuvers.

Of course, I could be very wrong, I just remember Tippy saying something about this. In my playground, things Tippy says are generally treated as actual RAW.

[Crake]

Sorry, but that's incorrect for non-martial adepts. Wizard spellcasting rounds up the level in its computation, but that's not the way things work if you don't have any martial adept levels. If you have no martial adept levels you take half your character level and round down. So a Fighter 1 would have an IL of 0, not 1.

he was referring to initiator level and their relation to maneuvers, not non-adepts and their initiator level.


I hate to start this argument, but RAW, nothing prevents you from taking super high leveled maneuvers. Nowhere in Tome of Battle does it say initiator level is a prerequisite for maneuvers.

Of course, I could be very wrong, I just remember Tippy saying something about this. In my playground, things Tippy says are generally treated as actual RAW.

Tippy often likes to take vaguely ambiguous things and construe them as clearly obviously working as he wishes, like saying stances are maneuvers, allowing you to get them with the magic items that grant you maneuvers known (which they aren't, and you cant). Page 39 is quite clear that your initiator level determines the maximum level maneuver you can select.

Probably not his fault though, can't expect someone to have their rules straight when they go through that much material.

[ddude987]

I don't know the ins and outs of RAW as well as some people on this board so I concede (I'm probably wrong anyways). But the RAW is basically what the OP was asking, so its only fair to say there is support for both sides of the argument.

[Big Fau]

I hate to start this argument, but RAW, nothing prevents you from taking super high leveled maneuvers. Nowhere in Tome of Battle does it say initiator level is a prerequisite for maneuvers.

Of course, I could be very wrong, I just remember Tippy saying something about this. In my playground, things Tippy says are generally treated as actual RAW.


See Table 3–1, page 39, to determine the highest-level maneuvers you can learn.


Your level in a martial adept class determines the highest-level maneuvers you can select. For example, a 5th-level warblade can select maneuvers of 3rd level or lower.

It isn't a prerequisite, but it is a restriction. Oddly, Martial Study just outright ignores it unless you read this part:


In addition to meeting the class and level requirements before you can learn a maneuver,

To make level a prerequisite.

[Phelix-Mu]

In addition to adding to the arsenal of other martial characters, the coolest thing about Martial Study and Stance is that they can be a very nice boost to monsters and npcs. One of the big drawbacks of the feat is lack of nice recharge mechanic; but a monster or npcs is lucky to get their nice maneuver off once before getting pasted by the party, anyway. Some of the high-level maneuvers really do work nicely on a big tough boss (Mountain Tombstone Strike, was it?).