Possible Atonement quests for Miko [spoilers]

[Mawhrin Skel]

Let us assume Miko realises she's made a dreadful error and wishes to atone. What task would she be given do this?

The obvious things are defeat Xykon and Redcloak, protect the Gates, protect Azure City, rebuild destroyed Gates. This happens to be what the OOTS is doing. However, Belkar's evil presence would make it hard for Miko to adventure with the OOTS.

So, I suggest: Paladins are supposed to inspire Goodness and lead by example. This was never really Miko's strong point. Her interpersonal skills are not great. How poetic would it be then if she were given the task of doing just that with a person with whom she fueds?

Miko has to Atone by redeeming Belkar, and by accompanying the OOTS to protect the Gates.

Thoughts? Alternatives?

[Charles Phipps]

Resurrect Shojo.

Apologize for her actions.

Try him in a fair and impartial hearing.

THEN execute him.

Miko/Mr. Scruffy's Adventures!

[fwiffo]

She has to go and get a letter of recommendation from everyone who she ever mistreated.

Ha! She'll die of old age before completing that one.

[Old Book]

A spanking! A spanking!





What?

[fwiffo]

A spanking! A spanking!





What?

And what do you know, Sabine and her schoolgirl outfit are right in same city (and looking a lot better than those dreary tan and grey clothes she got on now).

[Pvednes]

There's not much you can do to atone for regicide.

[Charles Phipps]

Shojo wasn't her Lord.

When your Lord breaks an oath with you, you aren't obligated to follow them.

[Blackdog]

Shojo wasn't her Lord.

When your Lord breaks an oath with you, you aren't obligated to follow them.

But he wasn't formally deposed. It's still regicide.

[the_tick_rules]

make her help the OOTS.

[Not a Paladin]

Resurrect every single non-Evil creature :miko: has ever killed.

Then vow never to kill an NPC until first failing a Gather Information check.

[Charles Phipps]

But he wasn't formally deposed. It's still regicide.

Paladins follow moral law rather than legal.

Shojo was never technically the King since he never believed in the faith that crowned him.

[Pvednes]

Shojo was a king, and he was a good king.

He protected Azure City for over 47 years.

[ElfLad]

Resurrect every single non-Evil creature :miko: has ever killed.

So... Shojo?

[Charity322]

He wasn't a king was he? Just the ruler. He didn't have a crown nor was he ever referred you as your majesty.

[Sebastian Bux]

Paladins follow moral law rather than legal.


Um, I disagree ... they are lawful good .. they respect the laws of the land AND morally good ideals.

[Pvednes]

He wasn't a king was he? Just the ruler. He didn't have a crown nor was he ever referred you as your majesty.

Those are just accessories. To be king is to be the hereditary ruler by lawful authority, which he was.

[xyzchyx]

A paladin cannot atone for an evil act they did willfully and deliberately. They can only atone for acts they did accidentally or acts performed while under some form of compulsion that forced them to act against their normal will.

[Charles Phipps]

Um, I disagree ... they are lawful good .. they respect the laws of the land AND morally good ideals.

That assumes the laws are good and moral.

[Scrubbed]

[Charles Phipps]

A paladin cannot atone for an evil act they did willfully and deliberately. They can only atone for acts they did accidentally or acts performed while under some form of compulsion that forced them to act against their normal will.

That rule has been flexible in the past

[Renegade Paladin]

A paladin cannot atone for an evil act they did willfully and deliberately. They can only atone for acts they did accidentally or acts performed while under some form of compulsion that forced them to act against their normal will.
There are two ways to interpret that. One is to say that unless the paladin was compelled in some manner, the fall is permanent. The other is to say that the paladin had to intentionally commit evil, therefore if the evil act was one that the paladin was not aware was evil, redemption is possible. I favor the second one. Whether Miko can atone or not is up to which one Rich leans towards.

[xyzchyx]

There are two ways to interpret that. One is to say that unless the paladin was compelled in some manner, the fall is permanent.No... if the fall was an accident, atonement is also possible. For example, if a paladin inadvertently kills an innocent bystander while charging an evil adversary.

But yes... the paladin code is strict. FAR stricter than the codes for the alignments themselves.

[FelixZ]

Don't let Miko become a paladin again. Instead, what if Xykon turned her into a blackguard?

:xykon: Do you want to get back at the OoTS?
:miko: Of course you miserable bag of bones!
:xykon: Ok, ok, then listen. I can train you to kill them. I can give you weapons so powerfull you could tear them apart. All you have to do is swear your undying soul to an archdemon.

[Renegade Paladin]

Don't let Miko become a paladin again. Instead, what if Xykon turned her into a blackguard?

:xykon: Do you want to get back at the OoTS?
:miko: Of course you miserable bag of bones!
:xykon: Ok, ok, then listen. I can train you to kill them. I can give you weapons so powerfull you could tear them apart. All you have to do is swear your undying soul to an archdemon.
Even if she does go to blackguard, she wouldn't fall for anything so blatant. Besides, Xykon would probably not care enough to bother.

[Setra]

Does xykon even know who the OotS are? He might vaguely remember them, but does he remember the name Order of the Stick?

[Porthos]

A paladin cannot atone for an evil act they did willfully and deliberately. They can only atone for acts they did accidentally or acts performed while under some form of compulsion that forced them to act against their normal will.

That was only true pre Third Edition. As of (at least) 3.0 a Paladin can willingly commit an evil act and still get an Atonement. Of course, since it will cost the caster XP (since it was an action by the persons own free will), you better believe the caster will slap a heavy duty geas/quest on Paladin in question. :smallbiggrin:

[TinSoldier]

A paladin cannot atone for an evil act they did willfully and deliberately. They can only atone for acts they did accidentally or acts performed while under some form of compulsion that forced them to act against their normal will.Umm, yes they can.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#exPaladins

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/atonement.htm

[TinSoldier]

Um, I disagree ... they are lawful good .. they respect the laws of the land AND morally good ideals.Only so long as those laws are legitimate.

[Raxtenko]

That was only true pre Third Edition. As of (at least) 3.0 a Paladin can willingly commit an evil act and still get an Atonement. Of course, since it will cost the caster XP (since it was an action by the persons own free will), you better believe the caster will slap a heavy duty geas/quest on Paladin in question. :smallbiggrin:

This is true for 3.5 as well, just so everyone knows. <<

[xyzchyx]

hmmm... my bad.

My old-school upbringing must be showing.

Man, and here I've mentioned it I don't know how many other times in other threads on the forum...

(is there a smiley for eating crow?)

[Igan]

Assuming Miko even *will* atone. She just had her life shattered and now she's adrift in the world. There's no telling what she'll latch onto as a means of pulling herself back together and giving her some sort of purpose in life. It could be atonement, or it could be revenge. I'm not going "LIEK ZOMG LOL MIKO A BLAKGARD," but I don't find it completely unthinkable that, through a series of encounters and periods of personal reflection, she finds her adherence to 'Good' breaking down and tries to solace herself with revenge on her sworn enemies. Besides, she always got waaaay too much of a kick out of killing stuff...

[agentx42]

[Scrubbed]

[Heliomance]

[Scrubbed]

Due to Godwin's Law, you just lost the argument.

[Tokeloshe]

Miko, upon losing her powers has a mental breakdown. At first everyone is a bit freaked out that she is curled up in a fetal position, rocking backwards and forwards mumbling "I was wrong, I was wrong, I was wrong" over and over again, but eventually someone gets the courage up to go and touch her shoulder.

They carry her off to a mental asylum.

Once she has recovered she starts thinking about her life and comes to the realisation that outside of being a paladin, she never really had one. She escapes from the asylum when a certain airship crashes into her cell, and goes on a journey of self discovery which includes romance, comedy, and a startling number of training montages.

Eventually she finds her true calling in the wilds of the world, as a hitherto unknown taoist druid version of a Paladin, who must be true neutral, rather then anything else. This allows her to use her otherwise wasted class levels to come back into the story as an peaceful, calm Miko who freaks everyone out because, somewhere along the line she lost the stick up her backside.

[valis]

I believe that Miko's crime wasn't just murder but also pride. She needs to be humbled and learn humility and maybe then she can be a Paladin again. Perhaps her atonement won't be a quest but instead serving others in quiet dignity.

[chibibar]

her atonement path would be difficult, consider Miko's current personality is black and white. Everything to her is either good or evil, no middle ground no exception. She manage to uphold good in her limited way thus far, but from what we read so far. It took 12 gods (not one animal but all 12) to remove her powers. I would say she would need to apease all 12 before she can get it back.

Pride is one of the seven sins.

[Renegade Paladin]

Due to Godwin's Law, you just lost the argument.
Godwin's Law only applies if you're comparing your opponent or his position to Hitler. It's not activated by any and all mentions of the Nazis.

[teratorn]

Miko will become the first paladin in the name of Banjo. Elan gets to set the quest. Best thing is that Banjo paladins go around the world invisible.

[Alfryd]

...rebuild destroyed Gates.
That may not be possible without extensive magical research.

However, Belkar's evil presence would make it hard for Miko to adventure with the OOTS.
Not anymore! Mark of justice, and suspension of association restrictions!
Well, at least, not any harder than voyaging with the OotS in general.

...make her help the OOTS.
I'd love to see this, but the problem with this scenario is that I can't think of anything that would compel the OotS to agree to her presence while completing their mission. There's just too much bad blood.


Miko/Mr. Scruffy's Adventures!
:miko: "Windstriker! You don't understand! He meant nothing to me!"

...This allows her to use her otherwise wasted class levels to come back into the story as an peaceful, calm Miko who freaks everyone out because, somewhere along the line she lost the stick up her backside.
Nah, I kinda liked her with a certain amount of angst.
It tones her buttocks.


There's not much you can do to atone for regicide.
Repentance is a state of mind, not black ink on some imagined ethical balance sheet.


Well, I wasn't going to respond, but since I'm Jewish and you dropped the 'Hitler' card, I have to say something.
Oh, for frack's sake.
*SUMMON GODWIN XI*!

It's not activated by any and all mentions of the Nazis.
Great. Now I can't unsummon. Here he comes.

[CGM3]

Miko will become the first paladin on the name of Banjo. Elan gets to set the quest. Best thing is that Banjo paladins go around the world invisible.

She has to go naked?!?

:smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek:

Hmm, I could get behind that.

:smallamused:

[chibibar]

She has to go naked?!?

:smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek: :smalleek:

Hmm, I could get behind that.

:smallamused:

Her vanity (if any) wouldn't allow her to do that. She is just too proud... then again.. who knows.

Miko is a devout belief in the gods, when the gods finally spoke (in term of stripping away her power) she might incline to do anything the gods wishes to get her power back.

I can see the Monkey god goes," You shall now train in the art of Ninja!"

[Whisper]

I see more of Miko helping the OoTS in defense of the city then leaving on her quest of discovery. I don't see her as a permanent member of the Oots but she may accompany them for a short while.

[chibibar]

I see more of Miko helping the OoTS in defense of the city then leaving on her quest of discovery. I don't see her as a permanent member of the Oots but she may accompany them for a short while.

In spite of her personality and her short coming, Miko still believe that it is her duty to protect the city and willing to sacrifice herself for it. (I can totally see that) she will continue to fight Xykon with or without her paladin abilities.

[Tokeloshe]

Whisper

That is assuming she recovers from the great big shock of having killed an innocent in relatively cold blood and having had her gods in no uncertain terms ditch her before Xykon gets there. Right now insanity is about the only thing that could keep her from getting thrown in jail. She is not going to be fighting alongside everyone else to stop the invasion.

[Alfryd]

She is not going to be fighting alongside everyone else to stop the invasion.
That depends on how desperate things get. You do not ignore the usefulness of a level 14 fighter/monk 2, even minus bonus feats.

[Amon Star]

Give her a choise.

1) Dress as a school girl and have V cast Evan's Spiked Tentacles Of Forced Intrusion on her; or

2) Marry :belkar: and host a cookery show.


Miko will become the first paladin in the name of Banjo. Elan gets to set the quest. Best thing is that Banjo paladins go around the world invisible.

LOL!


:miko: "Windstriker! You don't understand! He meant nothing to me!"

ROTFL!!!

[EntilZha]

The only atonement I want to see Miko do is take her secondary weapon and shove it into her stomach. :smallmad:

[Lord Zentei]

Does xykon even know who the OotS are? He might vaguely remember them, but does he remember the name Order of the Stick?

They completely messed up his plans for the Redmountain gate; I think it is pretty reasonable to assume he remembers them. His pretense not to do so is probably to mess with people, IMHO.


Godwin's Law only applies if you're comparing your opponent or his position to Hitler. It's not activated by any and all mentions of the Nazis.

Hmm. Actually, I think that it applies to Nazism in general, if I remember correctly... :smallconfused:


The only atonement I want to see Miko do is take her secondary weapon and shove it into her stomach. :smallmad:

Yay for haters.

Lighten up, dude.

[Igan]

Death isn't atonement...I mean, the whole Samurai viewpoint of "May-I-Disembowel-Myself-Honorably-If-I-Sin" was dramatic and noble and compelling and so, so stupid.
Warrior traditions have been waaaay to quick to recommend suicide as a course of action when a fallen warrior could have more profitably been put to some use other than fertilizer.
Atoning for a crime, no matter how heinous, is knowing what you did, understanding the full implications of what you did, and then living your life trying to make up for that crime. Even if your lifetime wouldn't be enough time to make up for it.
In Miko's case, atoning would mean a thorough breakdown of her beliefs and personality, and then her trying to correct whatever wrong she did. Death would be the easy way out for her, and I dislike her enough to want to see her go through the painful process of confronting who she really is, what she really is, and what's she done with her life. I do, however, concede that her surviving the process with her sanity intact and atoning would make a good spiritual story.
But her getting her beliefs twisted around, even to the point of becoming a Blackguard, also has a narrative quality going for it, which is why the 'Fallen-Good-Becomes-Evil' thing sees such a lot of use.
Even if the Giant does go that way, I have faith he can make it a graceful story, as opposed to Anakin's fall from grace...

[vbushido]

I think it far, far healthier if Miko found a gentler, less violent calling, redeeming herself through corporal acts of mercy and learning what the G in her alignment means. Becoming a Hospitaler might be a good choice. Paladin may simply be too painful and poisoned a choice for her now. Of course, this depends on if she's been guided through the shock and denial phases. If her immediate response is to flee in utter despair, she may simply become a mercenary and years later realize what happened to her. For all my distaste of the character in the past, I find I want to extend her mercy now.

-----
If Bill Gates had a nickel for every time Windows crashed....Oh wait! He does!

[Delfedd]

From the way Miko was acting, It seemed like she was poised to take control of the Azure City. I imagined her shoving the dead Monarch off the cracked throne, and then throwing the Azure army's might up against the Undead Hobgoblin army brought by the OoTS

[Renegade Paladin]

The only atonement I want to see Miko do is take her secondary weapon and shove it into her stomach. :smallmad:
She won't. In No Cure for the Paladin Blues, Rich said she'd be around on and off for the entire rest of the storyline. She doesn't die here.

[TheNovak]

I wouldn't mind seeing her forced into the Order of the Stick, either to defeat Xykon or to try and influence Belkar. The inevitable result? Miko goes Chaotic and starts takin' levels in Barbarian.

[MReav]

I'm just wondering... now that she's no longer a Paladin, but is fully aware of the Gates, maybe the Sapphire Guard can send her on the missions to check up on the other Gates (well, they may be able to do that now, given there is an actual clear and present danger on the Gates)/

[Lord Zentei]

I'm just wondering... now that she's no longer a Paladin, but is fully aware of the Gates, maybe the Sapphire Guard can send her on the missions to check up on the other Gates (well, they may be able to do that now, given there is an actual clear and present danger on the Gates)/

I don't know... they would most likely see that as a breach of the spirit of the code, even though it follows the letter. Hinjo was indignant that Shojo was meddling in the gates using outside agents, after all.

[EntilZha]

She won't. In No Cure for the Paladin Blues, Rich said she'd be around on and off for the entire rest of the storyline. She doesn't die here.

I haven't read it yet, darn you. :smalltongue:

[Amon Star]

She won't. In No Cure for the Paladin Blues, Rich said she'd be around on and off for the entire rest of the storyline. She doesn't die here.

YAY! :smile:

[Suldarr]

Don't let Miko become a paladin again. Instead, what if Xykon turned her into a blackguard?

:xykon: Do you want to get back at the OoTS?
:miko: Of course you miserable bag of bones!
:xykon: Ok, ok, then listen. I can train you to kill them. I can give you weapons so powerfull you could tear them apart. All you have to do is swear your undying soul to an archdemon.
You mean:


:xykon: "...The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be... unnatural."
:miko: "Is this possible to learn those powers?"
:xykon: "Not from a Jedi."

[rosebud]

She was an orphaned Samurai monk.
He was a unappreciated halfling ranger.

Apart, they fell from grace.

Together, they atone for their crimes
Save the world from the darkest evil
And find true love on their adventure.

It has Disney written all over it.

[Paramajic]

:miko: 's quest for atonement should have her taking care of those who her actions have left orphaned or abandoned.

That is, she should be placed on permanent Mr. Scruffy litterbox duty, until Mr. Scruffy forgives her. You know how fickle cats can be.

[Alfryd]

Dress as a school girl and have V cast Evan's Spiked Tentacles Of Forced Intrusion on her...
As has been pointed out beforehand, she might enjoy that.

I mean, the whole Samurai viewpoint of "May-I-Disembowel-Myself-Honorably-If-I-Sin" was dramatic and noble and compelling and so, so stupid.
Well, the idea was to make sure that a defeated force stayed very much defeated- and that the price of defeat was automatically high.
In practice, it wasn't actually practiced much until later historical periods when the samurai were essentially irrelevant as a military force.


In No Cure for the Paladin Blues, Rich said she'd be around on and off for the entire rest of the storyline. She doesn't die here.
Excellent, though I suspected as much. Oh, dear. I just hope she doesn't remain definitively antagonist for her entire stretch.

[pendell]

Eventually she finds her true calling in the wilds of the world, as a hitherto unknown taoist druid version of a Paladin, who must be true neutral, rather then anything else.


It would also allow her to go both ways, and as the Giant has told us, that is SO hot.

Bad, Brian! Bad!

---
My atonement quest for her would be very simple:

1) Submit to the laws of the land. IF by some chance they don't execute her, continue. Otherwise, if she submits with grace, she can have her paladinship back in the afterlife.

2) Put her on the detective beat solving *really* hard cases. Hopefully, this will A) teach her not to jump so quickly to conclusions and B) force her to deal with informers, undercover folks and such, showing her that even white has it's smudgy spots. Perhaps teach her a sense of proportion.

If, after a period of several years, she is able to demonstrate A) an ability to THINK her way through rather than simply jump to conclusions B) demonstrate an ability to ferret out *real* evil from good men gone wrong C) demonstrate compassion and respect for the dignity of others.

If, after a period of seven years she can do this and do it consistently, she can have her sword back. Until then, not only is she not a paladin, I wouldn't even let her be a fighter. Not until she fully understands when you DO and do not use lethal force -- and is willing to abide by those rules -- can she be a Paladin again.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Amon Star]

She was an orphaned Samurai monk.
He was a unappreciated halfling ranger.

Apart, they fell from grace.

Together, they atone for their crimes
Save the world from the darkest evil
And find true love on their adventure.

It has Disney written all over it.

ROTFL!!!


As has been pointed out beforehand, she might enjoy that.

I know, that was me that suggested that she might enjoy it. However, it would be fun for everyone to watch. :smallwink:


It would also allow her to go both ways, and as the Giant has told us, that is SO hot.

QFT!!!