Stacking natural weapons and "normal" weapons...?

[drageir]

Once upon a time I can remember having read that natural attacks somehow stack with normal weapon attacks and BAB, but I can't seem to find where it's written and how this would actually work.

If a creature have both a weapon and natural attacks, from what I remember you make weapon attacks as normal and treat it as the primary weapon, and then make all your natural attacks as secondary attacks (with a -5 penalty barring feats). Is this right? Where can I find the rules?

Also, for simplicity lets say you have a Fighter with claws and a greatsword - since the Fighter carries the greatsword in his claws, would he be permitted to attack with them, or is it up to the DM?

[Curmudgeon]

No, you're off in a number of respects.

In a standard action attack you can use a primary natural weapon (if you've got one), or a manufactured weapon. You can't use both.

In a full attack you can use as many manufactured weapon attacks as you're allowed, and all your secondary natural attacks. (If you make a primary natural attack, you can't ever make manufactured weapon attacks in the same action.) If you have a BAB of at least +6 you must make all attacks in order of decreasing AB.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first. So add up all your attack modifiers, and all attacks must be in strict order of attack bonus. That'll probably mean interspersing natural weapon attacks in the middle of your manufactured weapon attacks. Your idea of "and then make all your natural attacks" won't be allowed, by this rule, most of the time.

If you want to use claws for an attack and they're holding something, you've got to free your claws first. Usually that means dropping whatever you're holding.

[drageir]

OK, so if a character has:


BAB +16
Greatsword
1 bite, 2 claws, tail

The attack routine would be Greatsword, Greatsword, Tail, Greatsword

Explanation being that bite won't be used since it's primary, claws won't attack because the characters hands are busy, tail will be used because it's free of items and is a secondary attack?

[Curmudgeon]

Yep, that's pretty much it.

[Andezzar]

You are still a bit off: You do not lose a primary natural attack, if you attack with a weapon. It merely becomes secondary. Cf. Half-Dragon:
A half-dragon fighting without weapons uses both claws and its bite when making a full attack. If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack and its bite as a natural secondary attack. If it has a hand free, it uses a claw as an additional natural secondary attack.

BAB 16 gives you four attacks.

Your example would be:

+16 Greatsword, +11 Bite, +11 tail, +11 Greatsword, +6 Greatsword +1 Greatsword.

Unless the Greatsword or the natural attacks get some bonus that the other type of attack does not, you can order the attacks with the same AB as you like.

[drageir]

You are still a bit off: You do not lose a primary natural attack, if you attack with a weapon. It merely becomes secondary. Cf. Half-Dragon:

BAB 16 gives you four attacks.

Your example would be:

+16 Greatsword, +11 Bite, +11 tail, +11 Greatsword, +6 Greatsword +1 Greatsword.

Unless the Greatsword or the natural attacks get some bonus that the other type of attack does not, you can order the attacks with the same AB as you like.
Thank you, that cleared everything up :smallbiggrin:

[Curmudgeon]

You are still a bit off: You do not lose a primary natural attack, if you attack with a weapon. It merely becomes secondary.
That's actually just an example, rather than a rule.
When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.
Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature’s description indicates otherwise (using the manufactured weapon consumes most of the creature’s attention), and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. So if a monster's full attack routine indicates manufactured as well as natural weapons, we know all of those are valid secondary natural attacks. If the monster's full attack routine only includes natural weapons, we don't know if the primary attack weapon is allowed as a secondary natural attack when the creature wields manufactured weapon(s); there just isn't any information, and the individual DM will have to decide.

[DireSloth]

This here guide to natural weapons (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0) states:


In the presence of a weapon capable of making iteratives (manufactured weapon or UAS), all primary (natural) weapons are converted to secondary natural weapons.

The clarification in the parenthesis mine.

Any one has any idea where this comes from?

[tyckspoon]

The clarification in the parenthesis mine.

Any one has any idea where this comes from?

That's how it works in every monster stat block where it comes up as a possible example, AFAIK. It is true that the rules do not *explicitly* say 'if you're using a manufactured weapon, your primary natural weapon always becomes a secondary natural weapon', but there are a number of areas in the natural weapon attacks that are covered by assumptions because the RAW simply does not speak about them. This one is supported by every single example block I have seen where it might be relevant, which is amazingly consistent for WotC's editing of statblocks.