Fire!!!

[Absol197]

So, this started because of an issue so common that the esteemed Giant parodied it in his comic: my party walks calmly into a burning building and grabs their stuff, and calmly walks out. No fire resistance or anything. What should have been a tense, dangerous situation was just... Not.

So I'm going to be posting what I came up with as a fix soon, but I wanted to open up with a question: has anyone come up with a good way to make fire, you know, dangerous?


~Phoenix~

[shylocke]

Fortitude saves for every round spent in there past there con bonus. Relfex saves to dodge falling beams. Spot and knowledge architecture to spot weakened floors. It like trying to move down a trapped corridor after the rogue royally screwed up.

[BizzaroStormy]

you could increase the damage of the fire depending on whatever is fueling it but honestly fire in most RPGs simply isnt enough of a threat unless you're first level.

[kardar233]

Use drowning rules to represent smoke inhalation?

[Darrin]

Hmm. Sounds like it might have been a good spot to add more lava (http://web.archive.org/web/20110201223538/http://lavarules.com/).

Drowning is another area where the typical PC can shrug his way through a life-or-death panic. Given how long it takes to run out of breath, most PCs can just sink to the bottom, walk their way to the edge, knit a sweater, and then climb out before they run out of air.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Catching On Fire, Suffocation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm)

Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and noninstantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don’t normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash.

Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character’s clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out. (That is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he’s no longer on fire.)

A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.

Those unlucky enough to have their clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character.
It's easy enough to rule that walking through a blaze will automatically catch the character and all their carried gear on fire without a saving throw. Note that the character may have so much hp that they don't care about the damage, but their gear can be destroyed, especially magical equipment made from cloth.

A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The save must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.

When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.

Smoke Cloud (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/pyrotechnics.htm)

A writhing stream of smoke billows out from the source, forming a choking cloud. The cloud spreads 20 feet in all directions and lasts for 1 round per caster level. All sight, even darkvision, is ineffective in or through the cloud. All within the cloud take -4 penalties to Strength and Dexterity (Fortitude negates). These effects last for 1d4+1 rounds after the cloud dissipates or after the creature leaves the area of the cloud. Spell resistance does not apply.

Wooden floors that have been burning a while will collapse easily, especially if big heavy adventurers go tromping across them. They take falling damage, land prone, and get buried in rubble and debris. They have to make a Str check of around DC 25 (don't forget that -4 for the choking smoke) to get free, or they're stuck until they burn to death. Burning buildings are plenty dangerous.

Edit: Don't forget about backdrafts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backdraft) as well!

[Feralventas]

Burning buildings are not known for their structural fortitude unless the fire's only just starting out. If it's been burning for a few minutes or more it can start to compromise integrity of supports and platforms and such.

Regular reflex saves to dodge falling materials or get out of rooms before the ceiling falls in, and regular balance, jump and tumble checks to avoid obstacles.

[veti]

Few people - except firefighters and others who've been there - appreciate how dangerous fire really is.

The heat is the least of your problems. The smoke is choking, and you can model that with the drowning/suffocation rules - but remember it also obscures vision. And the very fact of being on fire makes the whole environment look very different from what you're accustomed to anyway, so some sort of rolls to make sure you know where you are and where you're going are in order.

Then there's the fire itself. It can spread incredibly rapidly - in a wooden building, reasonably ventilated and with an average amount of flammable stuff lying around, it can go from "contained in one room" to "engulfing the whole building" in just a couple of minutes. (That's why fire drills stress "getting the hell out of there" as your number one priority.)

Structural damage means that things will be falling down around you - if you walk into a burning building, the path you came in by may well not be open when you want to leave. And piles of flammable stuff mean that your tenure is punctuated by occasional explosions, fireballs and collapsing roofs.

And your room to manoeuvre is very limited, owing to (a) limited visibility, (b) stuff collapsing and (c) things being on fire. So feel free to apply a hefty penalty to Evasion checks, if you allow them at all.

Of course, if your PCs are 15th level and have appropriate survival items, all the above isn't going to worry them too much. But for low- to mid-level characters, going into a burning building - without some serious prep - should be taking their lives in their hands.

[Fax Celestis]

DMG-II has rules for how to handle a burning building encounter, among other things.

[Kane0]

- Smoke inhalation can be crippling. Fort saves if your not holding your breath or take some nasty penalties/conditions
- Increase HP damage the longer they remain in the thick of it.
- Smoke obscures, making navigation difficult. Not even counting cinders, ash and other problems with vision and contact
- Fires cause damage to the things they are burning. It doesn't take long to collapse a structure. Remember, before explosives people used fires to weaken stone for mining!
- Don't forget long term effects. Severe burns, nerve damage, tissue and organ damage, etc. It doesn't all end once you walk away from the flames.
- Walking into a fire is traumatizing. If you can visit a fire museum. Turn the encounter into an experience. The smell of burnt flesh, the screams of those trapped, the feel of debris as they blindly feel their way through the burning haze. This is very different from accidentally stepping in the campfire.

You would be better served by supplementing the thematic effects with the mechanical ones rather than the other way around.

[Absol197]

Thanks, y'all! You've driven home the point that maybe I didn't do enough work in making the encounter challenging.

However, I have started writing up new mechanics for how fire works, so I wanted to post what I have to get some opinions:

FIRE
Fire has two properties: intensity, and size. A fire’s size is just like any creature or object's—it measures how much space the fire takes up. Size for a fire can be anywhere between Fine and Colossal. Intensity is an indication of how hot a fire is, and therefore how much damage it does. Intensity is rated on a scale of 0 to 5, with 0 being the least intense, and 5 being the most intense.

Fire can deal damage in multiple ways: touching fire obviously deals damage from the intense heat, but even being near a powerful fire can deal damage just from the heat that radiates off of it. Each intensity of fire has two types of damage: touch damage, which determines how much damage a creature takes when touching the fire, and proximity damage, which indicates how much damage they take when nearby the fire.

{table=head]Fire Intensity|Touch Damage|Proximity Damage
5|15d8|15
4|10d8|10
3|5d6|5
2|2d6|2
1|1d4|1
0|1|0[/table]

When touching a fire, a creature is also “nearby” the fire, and so takes both the touch damage and proximity damage. So a character pushed into a campfire or burned by a torch (intensity 1) would take 1d4+1 points of fire damage per round (the touch damage and proximity damage), while a person held just over the campfire or torch without actually touching it would only take 1 damage (the proximity damage).

The amount of damage from the heat of a fire declines the further from the source of the fire one is. As you get further away, the intensity of the heat in your square is less, as shown on the chart below:

{table=head]Intensity|Same space|5 ft.|10 ft.|20 ft.|40 ft.|80 ft.
5|5|4|3|2|1|0
4|4|3 |2|1|0|—
3|3|2 |1|0|—|—
2|2|1 |0|—|—|—
1|1|0|—|—|—|—
0|0|—|—|—|—|—[/table]

Proximity damage from multiple fires or fire in multiple squares stacks with itself to determine how much damage a person takes per round. So a person who is 5 feet from two intensity 3 fires would take 4 points of fire damage per round.

Fires that are size Small or smaller must first fill up their current square before they start dealing proximity damage. The radius for proximity damage for such a small fire is “Same Space/Same square/5 ft./10 ft./20 ft./40 ft.” The range for all fires proximity damage is doubled if a creature is directly above the fire.

Catching on Fire
A creature that is on fire takes increased fire damage, on account of being on fire. The die size of the fire’s touch damage increases by 1 step, and the number of dice rolled increases by the fire’s intensity.

{table=head]Intensity|Touch Damage
5|20d10
4|14d10
3|8d8
2|4d8
1|2d6
0|1d2

The creature also still takes proximity damage for it’s fire, as well as any other fires in the area. So a creature that falls in a campfire and catches fire (both intensity 1) would take a total of 2d6+1d4+2 fire damage. 2d6+1 from being on fire, and an extra 1d4+1 damage from being in the same space as another fire.

[eggynack]

Hmm. Sounds like it might have been a good spot to add more lava (http://web.archive.org/web/20110201223538/http://lavarules.com/).
Those're easily the most comprehensive and logical lava rules out there. They just address every possible concern.

[Absol197]

Nothing? How disappointing...I thought they were decent, at least...

[Kane0]

The rules seem fine, but what you really want is the feel. Getting that is how you make the fire have an impact. Straight HP damage is only the start.

[veti]

For starters, I'd like to see some idea of what these intensities correspond to. A campfire is intensity 1 - OK. How about a coal fire in a house? Or a house on fire, which is where this conversation started? What is molten lava?

Whatever the answer, I think (although I've no intention of trying to test it) that it's probably possible for a normal human to survive contact with molten lava, even if they may lose a limb in the process. So the "geometrically rising damage dice" might be a bit unfair.

I think you're still thinking of 'fire' as just a passive environmental effect. Maybe it would be more productive to write it up as a monster, with special attacks, vulnerability to water and suffocation, actions per round, growth rate, the works. After all, some firefighters (and pyromaniacs, for that matter) talk about fire in terms of a living thing.

[Fax Celestis]

I think you're still thinking of 'fire' as just a passive environmental effect. Maybe it would be more productive to write it up as a monster, with special attacks, vulnerability to water and suffocation, actions per round, growth rate, the works. After all, some firefighters (and pyromaniacs, for that matter) talk about fire in terms of a living thing.

Great idea. I'd probably start with an Ooze (Fire, Incorporeal, Shapechanger), make it mindless, give it a Split ability (swift action, usable if it wasn't affected by a [Water] or [Cold] effect in the past round), and have a smoke breath weapon (steal the effects of smoke from the wall of smoke spell in SpC). Rob the fire elemental of its Burn ability, give it an incorporeal touch slam attack for fire damage, steal the Engulf ability from other oozes, and make it Mindless, immune to status conditions, and go from there.

[eggynack]

Fire as a monster sounds kinda amazing. It seems rather amusing to consider the fact that creating a campfire would presumably be generating this fancy ooze with a stat block and nifty attacks.

[Fax Celestis]

You know what? I'm goin to go stat some up.

[atomicwaffle]

look up the spell wall of fire. It gets so hot that water turns to steam and doesn't put it out.

Maybe a pyro set a trap, and you're caught in a burning building with several medium fire elementals trapping you inside, distracting you with combat when you could be escaping. Also, since you're in an inferno, they get bonuses. Also, you can't hear anything over the roaring of the flames and the crackling as structures burn, so they have to shout to communicate, but they can't because no smoke no air. Movement speed is reduced and fiery debris all over the floor.

Forest fire is even worse because they don't have any air. You can also pass out from heat fairly easily. Make them fatigued then exhausted. Perhaps they get viciously scarred and suffer a permanent -2 to charisma and a -2 to fortitude saves.

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, only issues I've run into thus far: fire shouldn't have any stats. Like, what does Str or Dex or Wis mean to a fire? Related: making it a creature means you can do things like slap buffs and debuffs on it. While some are cool (slow, for instance, has some neat thematic usages), limiting spells that affect it to those that affect objects is a little weird (disintegrate, shrink item), and I can't seem to come up with a simple rule that doesn't involve
DM adjudication on a case by case basis.

I suppose I could make a new creature type: Environment or Effect or Hazard might work, and stick all the weird rules bits in there.

[eggynack]

The latter seems like the ideal solution. I figure that the ideal isn't to actually have fire be a creature, but to just use that as a fancy game shorthand for a thing that can do stuff. However, fire does feel a lot like a swarm to me. It scurries about mindlessly, can't be touched by most things, and its effects on a party tend to automatically occur when it's in close proximity, instead of being an active attack. A fire swarm sounds kinda nifty, actually.

[Incorrect]

The fire hazard might not have stats, but a list of abilities might be suitable.
I think a new Type is needed.

The fire gains 1HD each round it spreads. Plus an option for increased growth?
The HDs increases its size (and as a result its modifier to Intimidate, of cause)
High level Hazards, such as Gargantuan Fires, have a chance to attract mephits or elementals perhaps?

Maybe it has an AOO mechanic where it can cause extra damage, trip people or otherwise ruin their day.

[hemming]

Some of the below (all 3.5) rules might give you what you want (or give some new ideas for modified rules). I think the rules on severe and extreme heat capture (somewhat) what you are trying to do w/ intensity. Combining some of these affects can up the danger of the situation pretty quick:

The ship fire rules from stormwrack (p31) could be of use:

-Entering a burning square does 2D6 dam and must make DC 15 reflex save or catch fire (taking an additional 1D6 that round and each subsequent round until save is made per DMG) - so traveling through 30 ft of burning squares is 12D6 dam no save + 6 reflex saves or catch fire

-Each turn roll d%: 1-10 = 1 square burns out ; 11-75 = no change; 76-100 = fire spreads by one square per 4 on fire

Cityscape decrepit building rules -

-Each turn a decrepit building takes damage, roll D20. if equal to or less than damage, building collapses. All inside take 1D8 per floor and pinned beneath rubble (DC 15 for half dam and avoid pin). DC24 EA or grapple to escape. Additional 1D6 each round pinned

DMG-

-Smoke Effects (DMG p304) - Fort save each round (DC15+1 per previous check) or spend round choking and coughing (no action); choke for two rounds and take 1D6 nonlethal

-Extreme Heat (p303) - (if air temp is 140 F or higher) 1d6 dam per minute (no save); Fort save (15 + 1 per previous) or take 1D4/round. Any armor gives you a -4 to save; all metal items act as though affected by a heat metal spell

I keep editing this post as I think of stuff. Substitute search for spot checks to fit the situation better and:

-You could treat weakened sections of floor as concealed 10 foot deep pit traps (Ref to avoid; maybe with an added pinned by rubble or burning rubble effect)

-treat falling beams as "Stone blocks from ceiling" traps (search DC 25) with 2d6 physical dam and 2d6 burning dam

-obviously the party won't be able to disable these 'traps' through conventional means

[veti]

Okay, only issues I've run into thus far: fire shouldn't have any stats. Like, what does Str or Dex or Wis mean to a fire? Related: making it a creature means you can do things like slap buffs and debuffs on it. While some are cool (slow, for instance, has some neat thematic usages), limiting spells that affect it to those that affect objects is a little weird (disintegrate, shrink item), and I can't seem to come up with a simple rule that doesn't involve
DM adjudication on a case by case basis.

Check out the Swarm subtype, to replace Incorporeal. Immunity to all weapon attacks, and all spells that affect a limited number of targets (Disintegrate specifically listed as example).

[veti]

This is my homebrewed attempt to make fire more... interactive. Feedback is welcome.

Fire, non-magical
Construct, Fire, Swarm (Fine)

All fires have the following base attributes:
Speed: 0
Initiative: 0
Special attacks: Growth, Distraction, Obscurement, Burn, Smoke
Special qualities: Construct traits, Vulnerable to water and smothering
Abilities: A fire has no Str, Int, Dex or Con. Its Wis is 10. Cha depends on size.
Attacks: Swarm

A fire has no movement of its own; it is permanently attached to its fuel source. A fuel source may be any creature, object or structure made of organic material, such as wood. Incorporeal and Elemental creatures, and anything that is immune to fire, cannot be a fuel source.

Growth: a fire generally starts out small, and grows (unless checked) until its size equals the size of its fuel source. Each round, the fire makes an attack against its fuel source. When the source takes 10 points of damage, the fire grows by 1 HD; this growth continues until its size matches the size of the fuel source. (See the 'Stats' table below.) Conversely, when the fire takes 10 points of damage, it loses 1 HD (and may shrink to a lower size category, losing stats in the process).

Swarm: A fire does damage (of type fire, duh) each round to every target within reach. No attack roll is required, and there is no miss chance from concealment or invisibility.

Distraction: Any creature occupying the same space as a fire is affected by Distraction (requires a Fortitude save to avoid nausea for 1 round, spellcasting requires concentration check of DC20 + spell level).

Burn: Any creature or object damaged by a fire must make a Reflex save or itself catch fire. It becomes the source of a new Tiny fire. The fire will burn until it is extinguished (for a creature, this requires a move action which cannot be attempted while nauseated). If the creature dies, it becomes a standard, nonmoving fuel source, and will burn until exhausted or extinguished.

Obscurement: A fire makes it hard to see clearly. Everything within a fire square, including the fire itself, is treated as partially Concealed (20% miss chance). This concealment is not affected by darkvision, ultravision or illumination, magical or otherwise, and is impervious to blindsight, except for creatures with the Fire subtype.

Smoke: A fire usually emits smoke. The volume of smoke varies with the type of fuel, as well as the size of the fire. Any creature percieved through a smoke cloud gains concealment (20%). Any creature within the cloud must make a Fortitude save each round (DC15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round coughing and choking. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

If the creature has at least one round's warning of the smoke, it can attempt to hold its breath. Under ideal conditions, a creature can hold its breath for 2 rounds per point of Con before starting to make Con checks; however, every action uses oxygen, and every non-free action taken counts as another round's worth of held breath. Once the 'free' time is up, the creature must make a Con check every round (DC10, +1 per successive round) to continue holding breath.

Water can be used to give protection from fire damage: 1 cubic foot of water, applied to a creature, gives it 5 points of fire resistance for 1d6 minutes. Water can also be used to damage the fire directly: 1 cubic foot of water does 3d6 damage to the fire.

Smothering:A fire can be smothered (grappled) by any creature that is at least one size category larger than the fire; the creature must throw itself onto the fire, and is subject to damage each round until the fire is extinguished. If the creature dies, it is added to the fire's fuel source (if it can burn).

Traits: A fire is mindless, blind, immune to all weapon attacks, critical hits, flanking, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death and necromancy effects, fire, electricity and sonic damage, ability drain or damage, fatigue, exhaustion, and any spell that affects a specific number of targets (including single-target spells). It cannot be staggered, tripped or bull rushed. It is not subject to massive damage checks. Unlike some swarms, it cannot be dispersed by strong wind (although it can be damaged by wind-based attacks).

A fire's fuel source burns up in time, and the fire will eventually die of its own accord unless more fuel is added. The base time taken for a fire to burn out depends on the size of the fuel source; however, this base time may be altered by a very wet or very dry fuel, and the available ventilation.

Fire stats
{table]Size|HD|Reach |Damage |Cha |Time to burn
Tiny |1HP |0 |1d4 |6 |2d6 rounds
Small |2d10| 0| 1d6| 8| 1d6 minutes
Medium| 4d10| 0| 1d8| 10| 3d6 minutes
Large| 8d10| 5'| 2d8| 14| 6d6 minutes
Huge| 16d10| 10'| 3d6| 18| 1d4 hours
Gargantuan| 24d10| 20'| 4d6| 20| 2d4 hours
Colossal| 36d10| 30'| 5d6| 30| 3d6 hours[/table]