Player wants a homebrew 'fairy'

[Silentone98]

So starting up another campaign with a new group... one of the players want this fairy listed here:
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Faerie,_Variant_(3.5e_Race)

Anyone with D&D experience that actually pays attention can see several flaws already when considering the listed level adjustment of +0
*Stats are +2 over, they don't even out after applying the clan bonus.
*Stats changes are extremely high(+2 Int, -8 Str, -6 Con, +6 Dex +6 Cha ? wtf?) I am ignoring this aspect however.
*Flight speed, and a generous one at that
*Forgot to list Low Light Vision as granted by Fey Type.
*Two free feats
*idk if size would normally be considered in LA... but the huge bonus's in Hide, AC and hit rolls seem to be more of a benefit than hindrance. Although one could argue it's not worth it when even a non-grappler build would be able to grapple and destroy you easily. Thoughts?
*Flight maneuverability has an incorrect value listed... Excellent is not a level of maneuverability, and I believe the closest correction is to set it at "Good"
*Unearthly Grace, palidans class ability+ a further bonus to AC? as if the dex and size bonus wasn't enough.

Basically, its clearly a badly put together race... yet conceptionally decent. It looks to me like a players piss poor attempt to wriggle some level of BS pass a DM with no LA cost.

So my question would be, how would you fix this? My player is okay with an LA cost, and understands that this race needs DM tweaking, so there is no issue there.

[Gnaeus]

Link is blank.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm

Grig is LA +3, Pixie LA +4. Admittedly, Pixie would probably only be LA +2 without the Greater Invisibility. Thats probably a start.

[Metahuman1]

First, the link didn't work for me, so I can't view actual stats.

Second, What does the player want to do with this class wise? That matters more then you might think, trust me. In fact, there are classes were I'd seriously consider letting them have this.

[pwykersotz]

D&D wiki links have parentheses at the end that don't translate well, try this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Faerie,_Variant_(3.5e_Race)).

[Nirhael]

Go here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Faerie).

I'd put that at LA +2 at least, 60 ft Excellent flight, a bunch of SLAs, two free Feats (albeit potentially useless ones) and those stat modifiers.

Edit: Didn't even notice Unearthly Grace, that'd bump the LA to +3 for me.

[Silentone98]

Link is blank because the last ) is getting cut out of the link for some reason... let me try something else.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Faerie,_Variant_(3.5e_Race)

Hopefully this works.


as to what he wants... I honestly don't know.. he is the most indecisive player I met outside of myself.
It started with pyrokineticist, but he quickly decided against it when I pointed out there is no power point or powers learned progression, outside of its class abilities.

Then he has been fiddling with the idea of Barbarian(wtf?) Ardent, non-healing cleric, and some others I cant remember...

so class idea is completely blank atm

[Silentone98]

...
Second, What does the player want to do with this class wise? That matters more then you might think, trust me. In fact, there are classes were I'd seriously consider letting them have this.

While class matters in the end product of a character, I don't believe that factors in at all when determining a races LA.

If that were true, then every single race in existence should be revisited and adjusted each time a new class was considered to be applied to it.
If the player choose a class that meshed poorly with the race and made its stats/abilities sub-par.. I'd chalk that up to poor character building on the players part, and give him props for making it work(if he made it work)
But that isn't even possible with this race, as it gives excessive bonuses at no cost, placing it above any reasonable race.

@Nirhael

I'd put that at LA +2 at least, 60 ft Excellent flight, a bunch of SLAs, two free Feats (albeit potentially useless ones) and those stat modifiers.

Edit: Didn't even notice Unearthly Grace, that'd bump the LA to +3 for me.

*What about nuking flight speed to 30ft, good maneuverability?
*The SLA's are kinda lame, and I seen plenty of +0's with equivalents
*I agree the two feats are near useless outside finding a melee class capable of using this kind of race, but they do exist.
*That unearthly Grace is pretty OP... spot on

I want to try and aim this down to a +1 as he is primarily interested in caster types and I don't think he understands how much casters can suffer with a hefty LA.

[SinsI]

Look at the change history of that page - those stats have been revised several times, and the page still has "LA +2" tag from one of the earlier editions.

Without LA it is obviously extremely overpowered (notice that a sorcerer gets +8 Charisma).

I'd sat that LA+2 or LA +3 is about right.

[Silentone98]

Look at the change history of that page - those stats have been revised several times, and the page still has "LA +2" tag from one of the earlier editions.

Without LA it is obviously extremely overpowered (notice that a sorcerer gets +8 Charisma).

I'd sat that LA+2 or LA +3 is about right.

really? Im gonna check out the earlier revisions real quick,... nice catch

EDIT: lol, and +16 Dex,... wow, love the level of crack someone was on writing this thing. We'll stick to adjusting the LA of the current version, and possibly nuking something.

[Rebel7284]

-6 Con is certainly somewhat of a balancing factor, but still, 0LA is not right, but there are 0 LA fey that he can use instead in printed material. https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

And there is always the Unseelee fey from dragon compedium.

[Silentone98]

*+2 Int, -8 Str, -6 Con, +6 Dex +6 Cha (+Clan modifier, as per original Fairy)
*Fey: The Faerie is given the Fey type for all spells, effects, and magical abilities, etc. that affect the fey type
*Diminutive: As a Diminutive creature, a Faerie gains a +4 size bonus to Armor Class, a +4 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +12 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses significantly smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits is one-quarter of those of a Medium character.
*A Faerie's base land speed is 10 feet: Their flight speed is 60 30ft(ExcellentGood) (Minor maneuverability correction+ speed adjustment to standard player speed)
*Racial Feats: a faerie gets combat reflexes and weapon finesse as bonus feats (Keep these just so a melee class that doesn't rely on Strength is still viable)
*Unearthly Grace(Su): A Fairy adds half her Charisma modifier (rounded up) as a bonus to all her saving throws and as a deflection bonus to her Armor Class. (bringing in line to palidans class ability)
*Spell-Like Abilities: Faeries can use the following spell-like abilities once per day: dancing lights, faerie fire, speak with plants, speak with animals. Caster level equals the Faerie’s class levels.
*Automatic Languages: Common and Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Auran, Aquan, Terran, Ignan, Abbysal, Infernal, Celestial, Elven, Orc and Druid.
*Favored Class: Sorcerer
*Level Adjustment: +1


How does this look?

@Rebel
probably would be better,... but I tried that already and got stone walled... this is what he wants on race. lol.. must be the flavor
as to the savage species breakdown, it isn't nessessary so we'd rather avoid that.

[Gnaeus]

*+2 Int, -8 Str, -6 Con, +6 Dex +6 Cha (+Clan modifier, as per original Fairy)
*Fey: The Faerie is given the Fey type for all spells, effects, and magical abilities, etc. that affect the fey type
*Diminutive: As a Diminutive creature, a Faerie gains a +4 size bonus to Armor Class, a +4 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +12 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses significantly smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits is one-quarter of those of a Medium character.
*A Faerie's base land speed is 10 feet: Their flight speed is 60 30ft(ExcellentGood) (Minor maneuverability correction+ speed adjustment to standard player speed)
*Racial Feats: a faerie gets combat reflexes and weapon finesse as bonus feats (Keep these just so a melee class that doesn't rely on Strength is still viable)
*Unearthly Grace(Su): A Fairy adds half her Charisma modifier (rounded up) as a bonus to all her saving throws and as a deflection bonus to her Armor Class. (bringing in line to palidans class ability)
*Spell-Like Abilities: Faeries can use the following spell-like abilities once per day: dancing lights, faerie fire, speak with plants, speak with animals. Caster level equals the Faerie’s class levels.
*Automatic Languages: Common and Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Auran, Aquan, Terran, Ignan, Abbysal, Infernal, Celestial, Elven, Orc and Druid.
*Favored Class: Sorcerer
*Level Adjustment: +1


How does this look?

@Rebel
probably would be better,... but I tried that already and got stone walled... this is what he wants on race. lol.. must be the flavor

Should be at least +2 LA, and it is a strong +2 la. It is much much much much better for a sorcerer than human, between the huge armor bonus, the huge charisma bonus, and free at will fly. Also what melee class would be viable with a 0 foot reach and diminutive weapons? Its a caster, or its a rogue, and either one will be delighted with it at +2 LA. The con bonus isn't really that big a limiting factor, since anything that hits your low level sorcerer will ko you anyway, and this guy is much harder to hit. Worst, it is very swingy. If you do things that take into account the build's weaknesses, (like AOE damage, or AOE con damage like cloudkill) it probably just dies.

[Nirhael]

Compared to a lot of other races, still feels like LA +2, but then there's the Unseelie Fey... hard to judge, you're the DM so slap on what you think seems right.

[Silentone98]

Thanks for all the input guys,... i'll talk with my player and see how he feels with those changes. Should go smoothly.

planning to go with the race setup I last posted with either a +1 or +2, i'll let him decide since I think I am okay with either on that setup.

[Phelix-Mu]

Diminutive seems problematic in and of itself. Tiny is generally considered the limit of playable, if only because the numbers for stealth and Strength start to get pretty stupid when you alter printed monsters down to being diminutive.

Realistically, Strength penalty should probably be higher. Otherwise, we are talking something the size of a toad that can have the Strength of the average human, at most. I'd make it -10 or -12, personally, but maybe that is just me. Remember, you can't really calculate Strength penalties off of existing Diminutive critters, because Strength can't be below 1. It could be -18, and it would still look like -8 or -10 from the MM entry.

[Metahuman1]

*+2 Int, -8 Str, -6 Con, +6 Dex +6 Cha (+Clan modifier, as per original Fairy)
*Fey: The Faerie is given the Fey type for all spells, effects, and magical abilities, etc. that affect the fey type
*Diminutive: As a Diminutive creature, a Faerie gains a +4 size bonus to Armor Class, a +4 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +12 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses significantly smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits is one-quarter of those of a Medium character.
*A Faerie's base land speed is 10 feet: Their flight speed is 60 30ft(ExcellentGood) (Minor maneuverability correction+ speed adjustment to standard player speed)
*Racial Feats: a faerie gets combat reflexes and weapon finesse as bonus feats (Keep these just so a melee class that doesn't rely on Strength is still viable)
*Unearthly Grace(Su): A Fairy adds half her Charisma modifier (rounded up) as a bonus to all her saving throws and as a deflection bonus to her Armor Class. (bringing in line to palidans class ability)
*Spell-Like Abilities: Faeries can use the following spell-like abilities once per day: dancing lights, faerie fire, speak with plants, speak with animals. Caster level equals the Faerie’s class levels.
*Automatic Languages: Common and Sylvan. Bonus Languages: Auran, Aquan, Terran, Ignan, Abbysal, Infernal, Celestial, Elven, Orc and Druid.
*Favored Class: Sorcerer
*Level Adjustment: +1


How does this look?

@Rebel
probably would be better,... but I tried that already and got stone walled... this is what he wants on race. lol.. must be the flavor
as to the savage species breakdown, it isn't nessessary so we'd rather avoid that.

I would just like to point out that unearthly grace, as normal, doesn't need to be brought into line with Paladin Divine Grace. Look, I get being worried about and OP race, but that little boost to AC is good for LA 1 and quite frankly I don't even feel this race is worth LA 2 even with the AC boost, let alone with out it.

[Silentone98]

I would just like to point out that unearthly grace, as normal, doesn't need to be brought into line with Paladin Divine Grace. Look, I get being worried about and OP race, but that little boost to AC is good for LA 1 and quite frankly I don't even feel this race is worth LA 2 even with the AC boost, let alone with out it.

+3 AC from race granted dex, +4 Size modifier, + another 3 AC from CHA,... +10AC from race stats alone isn't more than +1 LA on its own? no, pretty sure that needs to be brought inline. The extra AC is already there from other sources+ with that size theres a spot check penalty that can be argued for, making the player even less likely to be targeted to begin with.

Not to mention that CHA turns into a second DEX stat for AC. BUMP IT UP BABY! lol

[Drachasor]

If you have Races of the Wild, I'd say do something like...

1. Take the Killorian stats
2. Reduce size to small
3. +2 Dex, -2 Strength ability adjustments
4. Remove Manifest Nature's Might
5. Add the Glide->Fly chain from Raptorans
6. Change Racial Skills to +2 Knowledge Nature, +2 Survival
7. Change base movement speed to 20

Something like that.

[Red Fel]

I'd suggest simply using a refluffed version of the Half-fey or Unseelie Fey templates.

Half-Fey, for +2 LA, gives you boosts to Dex, Wis and Cha, plus a penalty to Con, wings, low-light vision and enchantment immunity, and a progression of SLAs. Unseelie Fey, for +0 LA, gives you wings, vision, DR, a special seasonal power, iron vulnerability, boosts to Dex and Cha and penalties to Str and Con.

It feels like you're reinventing the wheel with this thing. Try one of the pre-existing ones instead.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

I would suggest looking at the Petal from MMIII. It's a +2LA race reserved for cohorts by RAW, but since your are looking at homebrew it should work out rather well.
The only Fey I know of as small as what you are looking at is the Shimmerling (alos MMIII), which is also animal intelligence until it swarms and forms a hive-mind.

[Silentone98]

not me reinventing anything... this is what my player brought to me and is stated as 'what he wants, period'
as stated above, yet I wasn't quite clear on that

I have tried alternate suggestions already, I have been stonewalled. This is the race he wants, period. I may "adjust" it as needed as is my right. But scraping the entirety and building off something else is not an option.

Doesn't help that he brought a homebrew to me, and I don't know if he realizes that the people that make homebrews are not always(ever) keeping balance at the forefront of their design.

I'll have to look at that Unseelie Fey tho... maybe he'll change his mind eventually. Cept I don't own dragon compodium

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, it seemed like the OP's player already has their heart set on something. From experience, it's often easier to come to a compromise over homebrew or refluffing, rather than turning down someone's dream concept and suggesting existing options. But the DM does have the final call, so take that as you will.

A more playable Tiny fairy is certainly desirable, I think, being a big fan of Fey myself. Diminutive is kind of nuts as a pc race (again, speaking from experience), but I get that it's also a bit iconic as fairies go.

Also, carrying capacity is in quarters? Is that all? That doesn't seem right, though I guess the strength penalty is going to make even that pretty onerous. Remind the player that this means almost nothing will be portable unless custom made for the character (and, unless magical, almost nothing can be custom made unless made by fairies...normal humanoids with mundane tools would have some extreme difficulty fashioning stuff for this race). A gold piece would be like a spare tire to this character.

[Yawgmoth]

This right here is a sterling example of why the dandy is considered by all right-minded players to be useless dreck. If I had a player request this for a game I was running, it's entirely likely that I would kick them right there, and also not let them in my group. It gives several class abilities and dumps stats you are guaranteed to not care about (except con, maybe) by building in a reason to not care about them. Why do I care what my str is if my dex is through the roof and I get finesse as a racial? Why do I care what my con is if my cha boosts my saves and AC? Not to mention that your size further boosts both. Why care what your land speed is if your fly speed lets you hover?

All in all, it screams "pretending to be balanced so I can do what I want to do absurdly well." I could accept this as maybe a first draft, rough sketch, just-throwing-ideas-on-a-page version. Pitching it as anything else ought to get you pitched.

[Silentone98]

....

Thanks for this input... I agree with the size issue, as well as the armor issues.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Movement,_Position,_and_Distance
quartered carrying capacity is correct, halved if we go Tiny- which is desirable, as you said

[Silentone98]

All in all, it screams "pretending to be balanced so I can do what I want to do absurdly well." I could accept this as maybe a first draft, rough sketch, just-throwing-ideas-on-a-page version. Pitching it as anything else ought to get you pitched.

lol, as stated in OP... a piss poor attempt to get **** pass a DM. You get where I am coming from :)

[Chronos]

If that's what he wants, period, then your only sensible answer is no, period. There are no LA 0 races smaller than Tiny, and precious few of those. There are no LA 0 races with flight at level 1. There are no LA 0 races with positive total ability modifiers, or any ability modifier better than +4.

[Silentone98]

If that's what he wants, period, then your only sensible answer is no, period. There are no LA 0 races smaller than Tiny, and precious few of those. There are no LA 0 races with flight at level 1. There are no LA 0 races with positive total ability modifiers, or any ability modifier better than +4.

you missed the part where he gave me freedom to edit THIS race to bring it inline. Much of what you mentioned is already changed,... and character size is pending

[Metahuman1]

+3 AC from race granted dex, +4 Size modifier, + another 3 AC from CHA,... +10AC from race stats alone isn't more than +1 LA on its own? no, pretty sure that needs to be brought inline. The extra AC is already there from other sources+ with that size theres a spot check penalty that can be argued for, making the player even less likely to be targeted to begin with.

Not to mention that CHA turns into a second DEX stat for AC. BUMP IT UP BABY! lol

Which is all well and good until the monsters have +30's and more to hit AFTER taking off for PA if they use it, have effective auto succeed on any kind of combat maneuver they try on you, or can use magic to attack your saves, which is not a matter of if but of what level.

All this means is that she has to wait a bit longer before being in reach of melee's and not having initiative is death.

[Silentone98]

Which is all well and good until the monsters have +30's and more to hit AFTER taking off for PA if they use it, have effective auto succeed on any kind of combat maneuver they try on you, or can use magic to attack your saves, which is not a matter of if but of what level.

All this means is that she has to wait a bit longer before being in reach of melee's and not having initiative is death.

okay... well, we are talking about a time when you need to learn to rely on a bit more than just your racials, now arnt we? by your logic we should add 20 ++ AC to every race,... just because they will one day, at a very high level, face monsters that hit that easily.

If a player doesn't have other safeguards by this time well, they are screwed no matter what their AC, because every player faces this same issue and your logic does not stand up.

Furthermore, a weak melee is the trade-off a player taking this race would be choosing to take... this is the players choice, and mechanically sound. To hand them something for nothing is a ridiculous thought and exactly what you propose.

[ZamielVanWeber]

You will need to: squish down those modifiers; go for a net -2 before clan bonus; ibcrease size to tiny; remove Unearthly Grace. That will get you close to +0.

[Dorian Gray]

You could base it off of the petal race- something like
-12 str, +10 dex, -4 con, +2 int, +4 cha, with 30/40 (good) flight and diminutive size, would probably be worth around +1 la. The important thing about allowing really small sizes is tracking encumberence- a 1 str diminutive character can carry a grand total of 3/8 of a pound of stuff. Even then, that's enough for a fairy carrying a needle and leaf armor- very flavorful.

[SinsI]

Why do I care what my str is if my dex is through the roof and I get finesse as a racial?

Penalty to damage is still there... Plus you need to be able to lift your weapon.

[Phelix-Mu]

I am thinking of a pretty cool ranged character you could do with this. Maybe a bow-using bard or something...wasn't there a magical bow that let's you add Charisma to damage? The Deadeye feat for Dex to damage, magical bow...even with a weapon that only deals 1 point of damage, you could end up with a decent amount (at least compared to a run-of-the-mill un-op'd archer).

Anyway, it is interesting to consider more off-the-wall builds, especially for a race that basically screams sorcerer/Cha-caster. Oh, if only wilder didn't totally suck you-know-what.:smallsmile:

[Silentone98]

He accepted the changes, including the one to changing size to Tiny, instead of diminutive

thanks for the help and feedback guys

[Invader]

I'd tone down the stat modifiers quite a bit. It's usually not good to have that many scores adjusted that drastically. Maybe, Str - 4, Dex +2, Con -2, Cha +4 that nets you a 0 before the clan bonuses.

[Phelix-Mu]

I'd tone down the stat modifiers quite a bit. It's usually not good to have that many scores adjusted that drastically. Maybe, Str - 4, Dex +2, Con -2, Cha +4 that nets you a 0 before the clan bonuses.

Except that doesn't reflect the standard size changes that any creature reduced to diminutive gets, which is part of the problem, since those changes are really big compared to what normal races have access to. Ironically, while being really big or really small makes a race more attractive to mundane builds, it also makes the whole thing look unfair because, while the diminutive fairy would be very sneaky, everything that makes it a good rogue makes it a terrific caster.

BTW, touch AC of the original fairy would have been lol. I'd have made a battledancer with the evasion feat that lets you move 5' whenever targeted by something, lol. Wouldn't be able to do much, but the enemies would die from exhaustion after all the wiffing (especially with the Unearthly Grace).

[Invader]

Except that doesn't reflect the standard size changes that any creature reduced to diminutive gets, which is part of the problem, since those changes are really big compared to what normal races have access to. Ironically, while being really big or really small makes a race more attractive to mundane builds, it also makes the whole thing look unfair because, while the diminutive fairy would be very sneaky, everything that makes it a good rogue makes it a terrific caster.

BTW, touch AC of the original fairy would have been lol. I'd have made a battledancer with the evasion feat that lets you move 5' whenever targeted by something, lol. Wouldn't be able to do much, but the enemies would die from exhaustion after all the wiffing (especially with the Unearthly Grace).

Those were with the assumption that he was increasing the size.

[Doc_Maynot]

I am thinking of a pretty cool ranged character you could do with this. Maybe a bow-using bard or something...wasn't there a magical bow that let's you add Charisma to damage? The Deadeye feat for Dex to damage, magical bow...even with a weapon that only deals 1 point of damage, you could end up with a decent amount (at least compared to a run-of-the-mill un-op'd archer).

Anyway, it is interesting to consider more off-the-wall builds, especially for a race that basically screams sorcerer/Cha-caster. Oh, if only wilder didn't totally suck you-know-what.:smallsmile:

Don't forget the Tome of Battle feat, Shadow Blade. Lets you add dex to damage with certain weapons when in a Shadow Hand stance.

[Phelix-Mu]

Don't forget the Tome of Battle feat, Shadow Blade. Lets you add dex to damage with certain weapons when in a Shadow Hand stance.

But only in melee? I'd be hesitant to bring the diminutive version of this into melee...or the tiny version, really.

Would be interesting, however, to consider a HiPS build using Craven and other stuff to op precision damage while in the enemy's square. I guess this might also benefit from some of the schtick of I May Be Small, But You're Dead.