Monsters with CR 20 to 60

[Bad Hair Day]

I just looked in the d20SRD and I saw that the Tarrasque has a CR of 20. At face value, this doesn't make sense to me because he also has 48 hit dice. Although maybe that makes sense since a CR is based on fighting a typical party of 4 players.

Anyways, I also saw that the oldest Great Wyrm Red Dragon is still only a CR of 26.

I've been reading about creating a campaign where the players go past level 20, then into Epic levels, then into Divine/Godhood levels.

I figured Epic levels would peter out at about 30, but now I hear that it's pretty common for high level 3.5 games to go up to level 60. Which makes sense, because all the Gods in 3.5's Deities and Demigods all have PC levels between 20 to 60.

The thing that stumps me is, other than fighting Gods, where does a DM go to find a bunch of monsters/creatures that PC's can fight when they are at levels 20 to 60?

Thanks for any and all advice.

BHD

[SimonMoon6]

Epic Level Handbook. Has lots of monsters.

Also, re: 48 HD. Yeah, well, the thing is that just being a monster who can hit things doesn't do much against anybody with actual abilities. So in order to make a monster with very few abilities equal to a certain CR, they almost always have to give it way too many HD because HD really don't do anything for you except give you a chance to survive beyond the first round of attacks. Which kind of points to how useless fighters are (a fighter would have to be at least 48th level to be a CR 20 if he was a monster but because he's a fighter, he counts as a CR 20).

The tarrasque really doesn't *do* anything except melee combat and a ridiculous amount of defense and unkillability. You can even fly away from him. So, a low CR for him. Dragons have options, so higher CR.

[Malimar]

You're going to have a hard time finding anything like as many epic monsters as non-epic ones.

But here you go (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicMonstersAndObstacles.htm).

>20 monsters outside of the SRD/ELH: MM2 has ten. Fiend Folio has four. MM1 has two. Cityscape, Draconomicon, Frostburn, Lords of Madness, and Monster Manual V have one each.

That doesn't include monsters that aren't epic but can be advanced into epic.

Races of the Dragon pp. 69-72 has a list of True Dragons and their sources, most of which should get into low epic around Wyrm or Great Wyrm.

[skyth]

Plus you can advance monsters and/or add class levels to them :)

[zlefin]

did you look at the epic monsters section of the srd?
http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicMonstersAndObstacles.htm

Tarrasque is very weak for its cr, due to its lack of answers to a lot of things.

Epic gets very silly very fast for casters, and I don't think campaigns tend to go past level 30; just some start very high for the insanity of it.

[Pan151]

If you can't find high CR creatures then you just make some.

Give that Red Great Wyrm 20 levels of cleric and you've got yourself some pretty scary stuff.
Even better, give that Gold Great Wyrm 20 levels of druid and you've got yourself a creature with enough power to shatter pantheons.
Even better, get your hands on a Prismatic Great Wyrm/Dragon Ascendant/Mystic Theurge/Monk/Fist of the Forest, which is slightly harder to kill than the average planet (also for the hilarity of a colossal+ creature that rolls +109 on hide checks and +125 on move silently checks. Actually, now that I think of it, primarily for this reason).

[Erith]

If you're willing to take the hit to your sanity from the immortals handbook exposure, there's this (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/D20_NPCs_by_Challenge_Rating). Just scroll to the bottom.

[TuggyNE]

I figured Epic levels would peter out at about 30, but now I hear that it's pretty common for high level 3.5 games to go up to level 60. Which makes sense, because all the Gods in 3.5's Deities and Demigods all have PC levels between 20 to 60.

No, your first instinct was correct; 3.5 does not sense any make past around level 30, 40 at the latest, and games at those levels are (as far as I know) extremely rare. In particular, there's no real difference between a CR 30 monster and a CR 50 monster except that one might be a little stronger … and it might not be the CR 50.

[JBarca]

If you're willing to take the hit to your sanity from the immortals handbook exposure, there's this (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/D20_NPCs_by_Challenge_Rating). Just scroll to the bottom.

What.
Why would anyone even find this enjoyable? That's DBZ-esque levels of power creep jumps at lightspeed.

[Axinian]

What.
Why would anyone even find this enjoyable? That's DBZ-esque levels of power creep jumps at lightspeed.

The reason you've cited as making it unenjoyable is in fact why some people enjoy it :smalltongue:

[Snowbluff]

You can try templates. A 48 HD creature with the Phrenic Template has SR 58, and a host of Psionic SLAs (Well, PLAs) to help round out it's abilities.

[Rubik]

I took a look at the star turtle at the end of that list of epic enemies. It's honestly not at all hard to take down. I mean, ability damage to any of its mental scores or its Dex would take it down really, really fast. It doesn't even have SR.

[JBarca]

I took a look at the star turtle at the end of that list of epic enemies. It's honestly not at all hard to take down. I mean, ability damage to any of its mental scores or its Dex would take it down really, really fast. It doesn't even have SR.

It's got 6,666 miles of reach. Whence will you launch your attack? Though if you can manage that, you're right. That's honestly very disappointing.

[Rubik]

It's got 6,666 miles of reach. Whence will you launch your attack?This is what Teleportation effects are for. See: Scry 'n Die.

[SiuiS]

I just looked in the d20SRD and I saw that the Tarrasque has a CR of 20. At face value, this doesn't make sense to me because he also has 48 hit dice. Although maybe that makes sense since a CR is based on fighting a typical party of 4 players.

Anyways, I also saw that the oldest Great Wyrm Red Dragon is still only a CR of 26.

I've been reading about creating a campaign where the players go past level 20, then into Epic levels, then into Divine/Godhood levels.

I figured Epic levels would peter out at about 30, but now I hear that it's pretty common for high level 3.5 games to go up to level 60. Which makes sense, because all the Gods in 3.5's Deities and Demigods all have PC levels between 20 to 60.

The thing that stumps me is, other than fighting Gods, where does a DM go to find a bunch of monsters/creatures that PC's can fight when they are at levels 20 to 60?

Thanks for any and all advice.

BHD

You make them.


CR is meaningless at that point. Two parties of level 30 could have such drastically divergent powers and expectations it's not even funny; our group began achieving immortality by level ten, for example, through rituals and alterations to change their base race, and one is now an ennui filled unique demon and another a psychopathic faerie trapped in zen logic as applies to time. Both have at last count 2 DvR. But I've also seen a game where hit dice just went up and expectations held up longer because things were played straight.

[HobbesB]

I took a look at the star turtle at the end of that list of epic enemies. It's honestly not at all hard to take down. I mean, ability damage to any of its mental scores or its Dex would take it down really, really fast. It doesn't even have SR.

It would make a hell of an animal companion, though.

[Rubik]

It would make a hell of an animal companion, though.I doubt it'd fit in most dungeons, making it fairly useless overall.

It'd be bragging rights, mainly.

[SiuiS]

I doubt it'd fit in most dungeons, making it fairly useless overall.

It'd be bragging rights, mainly.

Make it incorporeal, give it ghost touch and mind sight, go to town.

[Fouredged Sword]

AaEG has a collar that makes it small without changing it's reach or stats.

[Rubik]

AaEG has a collar that makes it small without changing it's reach or stats.Excellent point. I'd forgotten about the shrink collar, which is odd, because I actually have one for one of my characters' pets.

[Brookshw]

If you're willing to take the hit to your sanity from the immortals handbook exposure, there's this (http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/D20_NPCs_by_Challenge_Rating). Just scroll to the bottom.

I.....I can't blink hard enough. This is awesome.

A'tuin is statted? He has capsize? I don't think I want to know how that plays out. Knocking things out of orbit?

[Ravens_cry]

I.....I can't blink hard enough. This is awesome.

A'tuin is statted? He has capsize? I don't think I want to know how that plays out. Knocking things out of orbit?
He also has a +8 racial bonus to his swim check.

[Rubik]

I.....I can't blink hard enough. This is awesome.

A'tuin is statted? He has capsize? I don't think I want to know how that plays out. Knocking things out of orbit?I'm fairly sure the Discworld has very little trans-aquatic trade, since all the boats auto-sink.

[shylocke]

BOOYAH!

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Hecatoncheires

[Rubik]

BOOYAH!

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:HecatoncheiresI do believe that's in the SRD. Also, here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dhoF7pFaDT4#t=184)

[Brookshw]

He also has a +8 racial bonus to his swim check.

Shame they didn't base her off a dire tortoise. I know I'd be surprised.

[ddude987]

Also keep in mind, throwing single monsters at a party is generally ineffective in terms of challenge because of action economy. You can shore up the CR of your monsters by also throwing in mooks, and other dynamic elements such as favorable terrain, weather conditions, etc.

[NichG]

For a campaign like this, it would help to have a very rich cosmology with structure at many scales. To make that work (and make sense) you need to be able to answer the question 'why do the different scales of the campaign stay mostly separate from eachother, except in the context of this adventure?'. If you answer that poorly, its going to seem forced when the PCs end up fighting a new overgod every week.

So an example of what I mean, take something like a setting where every rock, tree, river, etc has its own mini-god/spirit/what-have-you. All collections of things would be similarly organized under the command of a greater deity, and so on, creating a hierarchy of responsibility. The reason that these billions of epic-level creatures don't crush the world is because its not their nature to do so - the deity of a stream bed pebble doesn't just not want to conquer a human city, it is restricted by its nature to simply be unable to even conceive of acting in such a way - it has no free will, any more than a (mundane) volcano can decide to pull itself up by its roots, tromp across the ocean, and erupt on a city that it wasn't originally next to. It has a lot of power, but just within its context.

Now, throw in a villain whose gimmick is the ability to corrupt the natural order and give these elements of nature free will (or rather, change their nature to be something that actually can - and must - threaten mankind). This could be something like an Elder Evil's 'sign', so it starts with minor spirits becoming roused (CR 4-ish things), and gradually builds until the great works of mankind are coming alive and their patron spirits are wreaking havoc upon the world (CR 20-ish things), and then finally the spirits of the abstract concepts from which the universe itself is envisioned are slowly corrupted and animated - the spirit of Age, the spirit of Loss, the spirit of Light, etc (the high-epic creatures).

Of course, this is very linear - the entire thing is just the awakening cycle of a single Elder Evil, and that's very unstable for a campaign (and honestly, it would get tiring after awhile to keep going after the next corrupted spirit). So what you can do is add a few layers of insulation there, maybe some more convoluted goings-on, etc.

For example: its not just the Elder Evil that's corrupting everything, but rather its the Elder Evil's search for particular foci that bind spirits to material things within the world. When the minions capture the foci, the Elder Evil's corruption can sneak in through that connection. So the PCs can capture the foci too, to stop it from happening. Only thing is, interacting directly with the foci so much tends to transform them partially into spiritual beings themselves. So even if they stop the Elder Evil, now suddenly the God of That Tree Over There doesn't see them as some random thing passing by, but rather sees them as Unbound Gods who are trespassing in his territory. So the PCs are now operating on that level and become embroiled with the various conflicts that occur in that level of reality, unseen to the rest of the mortal world.

Perhaps there are advantages and disadvantages that encourage them to continue interacting (e.g. they can save a city from poverty by improving the social class of its patron spirit, and so on - its much easier than doing it the mortal way), and then new plots crop up around that.

Then of course, all of these spirits are just the locals, but 'Things Work Differently' elsewhere in the Planes/Cosmos/Universe/On Other Planets/what-have-you, and then you have a way to push it even further...

Anyhow, thats just an example of one style of campaign where you can do this kind of thing - certainly not for everyone, and its not necessarily the only way to do it.

As far as the actual question asked though, at some point you probably should just get comfortable inventing your own monsters at need. It's kind of silly to have a 'generic' example of anything 'epic' - every significant creature should somehow be a unique being at that point.

[Rubik]

{Epic Awesomeness}I really like this. Tie it into Faerie or some alternate spirit plane overlapping the standard reality we're familiar with, and have the PCs' presence weaken the barriers between realities due to them being spiritual beings on the mortal plane (which is a good reason why gods rarely visit, since many of the beings in such spiritual planes are potentially apocalyptically violent).

I really, really like this.