How to Fix a Fighter

[Ortesk]

Not to beat a dead horse, but we all know that a fighter is just an npc class with feats. Which saddens me since i love the class so much. When i read the class description, i imagine this great force which can stand against dragons and vanquish demons. What i get is a guy turning into a magic item shops display window. So before i work on any homebrew, im wanting to ask the playgrounders what it would take to fix the fighter and make him viable. And please no ToB, what that book did was amazing yes but i want to offer a different feel than that. I want the bad ass from the movies who's power with his weapon is awe inspiring and his ability on the field is the stuff of legends.

[Kraklen88]

The only time I have seen a successful fighter is in my current Eberron campaign. He is a Warforged Fighter/Juggernaught and nothing can touch him. Add some homebrewed components and he has been doing just fine. Granted he has the dungeoncrasher ability and the group isn't high op by any means. But he has moments of shining in combat.

NOTE: Unless you gave the fighter equivalent of spells, some sort of DR, and abilities instead of feats, he will never keep up with Tier 1-2. I would probably start with the ToB classes and go from there.

[Komatik]

The problem here is that Warblade is, literally, just a Fighter, flavour and all, that works mechanically.

[Cikomyr]

The problem here is that Warblade is, literally, just a Fighter, flavour and all, that works mechanically.

Warblade with fists is a monk that works mechanically.

Warblade is the universal answer to all martial unbalance

[Komatik]

Warblade with fists is a monk that works mechanically.

Warblade is the universal answer to all martial unbalance

Now you're thinking unarmed Swordsage variant. Besides, it doesn't so much solve imbalance as just the generally terrible design (while definitely helping the balance stuff along a bunch too). But being a cryohydra riding a dinosaurus spamming Greenbound BFC-burpers and templated Elementals is probably still the better melee option :P

[Grod_The_Giant]

Not to beat a dead horse, but we all know that a fighter is just an npc class with feats. Which saddens me since i love the class so much. When i read the class description, i imagine this great force which can stand against dragons and vanquish demons. What i get is a guy turning into a magic item shops display window. So before i work on any homebrew, im wanting to ask the playgrounders what it would take to fix the fighter and make him viable. And please no ToB, what that book did was amazing yes but i want to offer a different feel than that. I want the bad ass from the movies who's power with his weapon is awe inspiring and his ability on the field is the stuff of legends.

Options beyond "full attack"
Things to do out-of-combat.
Some sort of concept beyond "guy who fights." (A leader? A smart warrior?)

[Cikomyr]

How about the Fighter automatically get those feats:

- Weapon Focus
- Weapon Specialization
- G Weapon Focus
- G Weapon Specialization

when he gets the requirements? That way, he doesn't have to blow 4 feats on +2 attack, +4 damage.

The PHB2 also offer new Fighter-only special feats that are neat, maybe we could add them to the list of automatics?

[Rubik]

The best way to fix a fighter involves a rubber band and rubbing alcohol to prevent infection.

[Harrow]

Warblade with fists is a monk that works mechanically.

Warblade is the universal answer to all martial unbalance

I tend to view monks as much more 'mystical' than you get with a warblade. Nothing a warblade does is supposed to really be magic. I'd use a swordsage as a monk replacement. Probably an unarmed swordsage.

To answer the OP, You have to let fighters do more things. Like, right now, the options a fighter has are 'Charge' and 'Full Attack', pretty much regardless of level. Those are all of the things they can do, ever. Sure, they technically have other options, but in practice not so much. They could grapple, disarm, bullrush, or overun, but those are pretty sub-optimal. They could also trip, but it's so difficult to do any of these things that if the character can do one of them, they can pretty much only do that one thing and nothing else, making your options "charge and trip" and "full attack against prone".

There are also things like the total defense action and shields that are supposed to give fighters more options, but AC is so demonstrably inferior to to-hit and damage that they see only niche use.

If you want to 'fix' fighters, you have to give them options. If a player has only one thing to spend their actions on, their character is going to get boring and not be relevant except in scenarios where that one action is useful.

To avoid ToB style fighters, I suggest you look towards what the most popular mundane build in Core is ; The Horizon Tripper. It has fast movement, reach, can trip OR hit, and at level 11 can use dimension door every couple of rounds. From there is gets a handful of other useful and interesting abilities, such as energy resistance, immunity to Blashpemy, and Tremorsense. Before that, they have a couple of skills they can use.

Anything you make that can do things is going to be more effective and fun than the fighter.

If you don't mind the question, what exactly about ToB do you not like?

[Flickerdart]

Options beyond "full attack"

There's nothing wrong with full attack. A full attack is actually a great thing - melee classes get 3-4 actions out of it. The problem is that they can't do anything with those attacks. Sure, a fighter dedicated to tripping can knock the guy over, but that's all he's got.

Consider the iconic warrior of fiction. He elbows past mooks to face the enemy captain, locks blades with him, headbutts him to break the lock, throws a dagger down to nail his foot to the ground, knocks him off-balance with his shield, delivers a punishing blow to a weak spot in the armour that wounds the foe, and then beheads him while he's in shock - all in a span of seconds. These are diverse actions that are very poorly represented by the current system.

The very first homebrew I made was the Kata Initiate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136989), which tried to deal with this problem by converting attack actions into cool effects. It was kind of slip-shod, but you might be able to draw some inspiration from it.

How about the Fighter automatically get those feats:

- Weapon Focus
- Weapon Specialization
- G Weapon Focus
- G Weapon Specialization

when he gets the requirements? That way, he doesn't have to blow 4 feats on +2 attack, +4 damage.

The PHB2 also offer new Fighter-only special feats that are neat, maybe we could add them to the list of automatics?
The solution to "all a fighter gets is feats" is not "let's give him some awful feats for free."

[The Insanity]

I gestalt Fighter with Warblade.

[Invader]

More skills, more skill points, they shouldn't have to take feats to be proficient with fighting styles since as fighters that's their whole schtick.

I never understood why I need 8 feats to be proficient using a bow and really if that's what I want to do I have no real advantage over most other classes and disadvantages compared to some others.

[OldTrees1]

There is a lot the Fighter can do with just feats that it rarely gets credit for.

Swift action: Force 1 opponent to Cower for 1 round (Kinda like a High Will DC).

Full attack: Cause several foes to be Dazed(High Fort DC) on the floor.

Out of turn: Each attack of opportunity can either use Standstill (High Ref DC) or the standard Dazed(High Fort DC) on the floor and knocked back. Attacking the Fighter eventually becomes difficult since you can't hit him after being knocked back 10ft in response to wanting to attack.


Now it is true that for some, knocking foes around, tripping them up, dazing them and rendering them paralyzed with fear in the same turn is not enough variety. However there are many people who were unaware that this is how versatile Fighter combat can be.


Given that, what more can be done to fix Fighter?
1) Move and Full Attack in the same turn.
2) Fighting style (let the fighter customize their combat feats after a short meditation)
3) More interesting and powerful feats like the ones referenced above(To make #2 worthwhile)
4) More skill points & class skills

[Darkweave31]

I like the fighter as an intelligent, disciplined, trained warrior. Barbarian relies on brute strength and primal rage, Fighter should rely on training, tactics, and wit. While WotC tried to model this by granting more feats, the reality fell short of what I think was their intended goal.

In my homebrew fighter I gave the class a number of abilities that relied on a pool of tactic points much like the Factotum's inspiration points to represent their ability to use their head and quickly adapt their tactics to any combat situation.

Another way to model their training and skill is more skills and skill points, and abilities that key of of intelligence.

In 4th edition, for all it's inherent flaws, I loved the idea of the defender mechanic as a way to draw attacks away from vulnerable party members. So I came up with a similar ability that basically allowed the fighter to target a number of enemies equal to their intelligence bonus (minimum 1) each round and make attacks of opportunity if they attack an ally or move (even if the move would not normally provoke an attack of opportunity).

Besides those two things, I've often seen fighter homebrews allowing them to change their bonus feats after (insert flavor of martial preparation).

[ngilop]

1) more skill points

2) an expanded skill list the fighter literally has the worse skill list of the classes ( yes even NPC classes)

3) allow the fighter to affect more than just the AC of the opponent
3a) I.E. opponent's saves, fighter does X ability, oppoennt saves vs X with a will save etc

4) give the fighter a full attack as a standard action

5)give the fighter a way to help allies; a simple 'fighter' fix I used for a long time was a Marhsal with a full BAB, d10 Hp and a bonus feat every even level, or gestalted fighter/marshal basically

6) allow the fighter some out of combat utility

thats what I can thinkof off the top of my head.

[Stoneback]

4 + INT skill points per level.
Add Spellcraft and any one Knowledge skill to the Fighter's skill list along with one additional skill of the player's choice.

New class abilities:

Exceptional Weapons Training (Ex): The Fighter gains the following ability at 2nd level: Fighters are the most skilled and resourceful of all martial classes. Picking up new weapons and using them properly is fun and easy for them. Any Exotic weapon is treated a as Martial weapon after 1 day of study.

Forge Lore (Su): At level 5, the Fighter gains the supernatural ability to craft any magic armor, shield or weapon useable by any class and level he has attained. Time, material and XP cost apply as detailed under the Craft Magic Arms and Armor, (PHB 92).

Leadership: Fighting men of some renown are natural leaders, especially in newly-tamed frontiers and for bold, new movements and projects. At level 6, the Fighter gains the Leadership feat for free in addition to any Fighter bonus feat or other feat the character gains at that level.

This ought to keep the fighter viable through about level 10-12 and give him something to do out of combat.

[Tommy2255]

How about the Fighter automatically get those feats:

- Weapon Focus
- Weapon Specialization
- G Weapon Focus
- G Weapon Specialization

when he gets the requirements? That way, he doesn't have to blow 4 feats on +2 attack, +4 damage.

The PHB2 also offer new Fighter-only special feats that are neat, maybe we could add them to the list of automatics?

Isn't that just Pathfinder Fighter? Why don't we just use that? Maybe increase the DR they get a little, and certainly make it earlier, but I don't see what's wrong with just pulling the Pathfinder version and copy pasting it into 3.5 wholesale.

[ngilop]

Isn't that just Pathfinder Fighter? Why don't we just use that? Maybe increase the DR they get a little, and certainly make it earlier, but I don't see what's wrong with just pulling the Pathfinder version and copy pasting it into 3.5 wholesale.

Pathfinder went eh completely incorrect route of fixing the Fighter. with the 'give the fighter bigger numbers; route.

That does not address the severe definciencies the poor joke of a class the Fighter is.

I did a MINOR tweak to the Fighter and thats an NPC class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=317055) its pretty sad when all but 1 of the standard NPC classes are better than a 'PC' class.

[Invader]

The problem isn't that they can't do unique stuff with feats it's the fact that everyone can do the same stuff.

Fighters should set the benchmark for certain things and other classes should need to use feats to emulate those benchmarks.

[Invader]

I also like the idea of allowing the fighter to train other classes with various things like letting them change their weapon proficiencies.

[ryu]

What tier of effectiveness are you looking for? Based on what you wrote in about the guy who can effectively fight as the image from an action movie? I'm thinking you want high tier 4/potential low tier 3. To that end? More skill points. better class skill array (including spot and listen please), remove all of the worthless prerequisite feats, and add in a wider variety of combat strategy kinds of attacks. Suddenly you've got a thing that's easier to learn multiple fairly decent (relatively speaking) combat tricks, isn't less capable of standing guard than a wizard familiar, can have some legitimately handy skill tricks on the side, and all without using any ToB things. If you want any higher effectiveness we're gonna have to start introducing elements that are basically aping magic if not simply magic directly. In other words pass this point with this concept and you get something that's pretty much a warblade.

[Harrow]

One thing I personally dislike about the fighter is the lack of versatility. You want to be a ranged character? Well, I hope you picked up EWP for the greatbow, point blank shot, precise shot, and rapid shot. Then you'll be an adequate ranged character, which is pretty nice, unless the enemy is mounted, you're in tight conditions like a dungeon, or the DM spawns random encounters 40 feet away from you.

Want to do mounted combat? Hope you picked up Mounted Combat at the least, Ride-By-Attack, Spirited Charge, a lance, and half your skill points in ride to really contribute.

Any sort of special combat attack? Why, no, a 12th level fighter can't just grapple an opponent. They get an AoO and, being high level, they probably have a higher grapple modifier than you. No, no, you need to have paid a 2 feat tax just to have a chance, you'll need an entire character dedicated to it if you want to do it on a regular basis.

I would like a Fighter that was competent in more than one thing. A single character should succeed more than half the time hitting a monster with a ranged weapon, hitting a monster while on horseback, hitting a monster with two-weapon fighting, hitting a monster with any weapon dropped in random treasure, grappling, tripping, bullrushing, overunning, disarming, feinting, intimidating, and (if strictly necessary) sundering.

Any Fighter should be capable of that against an even CRd opponent from level 1. If a Fighter was built to a single one of those things, they should still be more capable at most of those things than any given Barbarian or Ranger of the same level and should only fail at doing their one special thing when fighting an opponent of relatively high CR or an opponent specifically built to counter their special thing.

[Stoneback]

After re-reading Warblade, it is the perfect fix for the Fighter. If only those silly maneuvers looked more like spells and not Pokemon cards...

[Flickerdart]

After re-reading Warblade, it is the perfect fix for the Fighter. If only those silly maneuvers looked more like spells and not Pokemon cards...
Have you ever taken even a cursory glance at medieval and Renaissance swordsmanship schools? You'd be lucky to find something that sounds as serious as "Sapphire Nightmare Blade."

[OldTrees1]

I would like a Fighter that was competent in more than one thing. A single character should succeed more than half the time hitting a monster with a ranged weapon, hitting a monster while on horseback, hitting a monster with two-weapon fighting, hitting a monster with any weapon dropped in random treasure, grappling, tripping, bullrushing, overunning, disarming, feinting, intimidating, and (if strictly necessary) sundering.

Fighter(Exoticist, Zhentarim soldier)
Feat cost (in order, overlapping feats are only counted the first time) 3, 2, 2, 1, 1, 2, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 = 19 feats
Top feat included per category: Boomerang Daze, Ride-by-Attack, Dire Flail Smash, Millitia*, Improved Grapple, Knock-down, Knockback, Improved Overrun, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Imperious Command, Improved Sunder.

*Exoticist trades martial proficiency for 4 exotic weapon proficiencies. Millitia gets those back.

So bonus feats does have potential, however Fighter needs this potential before 18th level. Being able to respect their feats at will (with meditation) helps a lot.

[Ortesk]

If you don't mind the question, what exactly about ToB do you not like?

Honestly i love ToB, but my group thinks its broken and they refuse to allow any part of it (this discussion came when i wanted to play a shadow sun ninja)

The fact that if you bring in tob, you can increase damage is what i think bugs them. I just realized the problem isnt that a fighter needs more damage, if that was it you can just build a charger and laugh at HP, its that the fighter needs options which is why i came here asking about ideas

[The Insanity]

Your group thinks that a fine official book is broken, so your answer is homebrew?

[Ortesk]

Your group thinks that a fine official book is broken, so your answer is homebrew?

There fine with homebrew lol, which yes i know is moronic but my group is moronic when it comes to what they see as OP so what can i do

(Example, planar shephard becoming a solar at 14 with level 20 cleric spells is perfectly fine, werebear grappler with VoP is broken)

[Stoneback]

Honestly i love ToB, but my group thinks its broken and they refuse to allow any part of it (this discussion came when i wanted to play a shadow sun ninja)

The fact that if you bring in tob, you can increase damage is what i think bugs them. I just realized the problem isnt that a fighter needs more damage, if that was it you can just build a charger and laugh at HP, its that the fighter needs options which is why i came here asking about ideas

Why not home brew a "Fighter" with class abilities similar to those of a Warblade? A little work but if they dislike the ToB...?

[Tommy2255]

There fine with homebrew lol, which yes i know is moronic but my group is moronic when it comes to what they see as OP so what can i do

(Example, planar shephard becoming a solar at 14 with level 20 cleric spells is perfectly fine, werebear grappler with VoP is broken)

So I'm guessing those super broken amazing pure monk characters aren't an option?

[Talakeal]

I have been in a lot of groups that ban monks for being OP. Hell, i once made a changeling monk / war shaper with VoP inspired by mystique from x-men. I was laughed out of the room for being such a power gamer.

[Sir Chuckles]

I have been in a lot of groups that ban monks for being OP. Hell, i once made a changeling monk / war shaper with VoP inspired by mystique from x-men. I was laughed out of the room for being such a power gamer.

Ahhh, I've gotten Monks, Tripping, Sundering, Charging, Grappling, Large PCs, Fighter Dips, myself, and half a dozen feats all banned in one sitting. I still feel guilty about it.

Anyway, I like either making the variants the go-to standard, or using the one from the Rebalanced Compendium.

[Dienekes]

Well, looking at the Fighter, he is essentially a blank slate. Just full bab, d10 hit die, and a single ability every other level (plus an additional at 1st). So theoretically, at best a fighter is getting 11 abilities that need to suit him for just about every situation that comes up at the gaming table. Disregarding skills for a second (of which the fighter gets the lowest trainable amount and a crappy skill list anyway), this is just pathetic.

Now, you can make the argument that the fighter needs to be more focused. It shouldn't be a fighter, it should be a tactician, or a duelist, or a soldier, but honestly while I'm sure this works, I disagree. Wizards, Clerics, and Sorcerers aren't focused in that way at all and they're fun and very powerful classes. The problem is the number and type of abilities. A wizard gets as many abilities as money can buy, and a sorcerer gets 44, minimum. Now, I think increasing the number of abilities gained is a good step. Now the Warblade increases the number of abilities available to about 30 (not including retraining old maneuvers for new abilities), which I think is a perfectly fine benchmark to have.

However, possibly more important than the number of abilities is the usefulness of the abilities. Now, this is where things get a bit tricky. Different groups have wildly different views on what is and what isn't overpowered. You'll have to find out where your group is comfortable, if they don't like the Warblade it can be for a few reasons. Your group seems to look at the class being able to do 100+ damage in a single strike as overpowered, even though that's a fairly middling 9th level maneuver. So I would suggest making abilities that allow the fighter to instead get options other than damage (which is honestly good advice anyway). From that point, make a list of what you think are cool and appropriate abilities and figure out with your GM what level you think they're applicable.

I'd also suggest keeping the names low-key. A lot of GMs I've seen get really twitchy at something called Wall of Blades, but a Parry is the same effect sounds much more like something a fighter would do.

So a starter list to help inspire what a fighter should get for cool abilities:
Improved battle-field movement
Mess around with Initiative scores
Ignore DR
Knock a flying opponent back to the ground
Say "No" to certain magical effects
Not crying in a corner because someone is scary
Status effects; blind them, make them bleed, hit their kneecap and make them unable to move, hamstring them, daze them with a blow to the head, or even stun them
Battlefield control: Moving your opponents to get them where you want them
Battlefield control: for the commander options, you can move your allies too
Block attacks
Protect allies
Get enemies to attack you
Just keep going when you should be dead
Attack multiple foes in various ways
A single powerful strike against one foe
A perfect accurate attack
Straight up slay an enemy
Be so legendary that people are more likely to listen to you
Command those around you so they are compelled to follow
Bash down anything with ease

And don't just be limited to what the fighter can do in combat. Remember, some of our best legends were about warriors. They often had additional skills beyond hitting people. They were respected and feared. They can run and organize an entire army. Set up a skirmish, and knew when they were about to be ambushed. They could scout. They could use the terrain to their advantage. You get the idea, let your imagination run wild.

[rexx1888]

hmmm, talking about how to fix a fighter is always a bit of a laugh so ill throw in my own two cents :D

so, alot of fixes try to give the fighter maneuvers. I get why. Maneuvers are a solid analogue for spells, and giving fighters or mundanes some form of ex spell casting would fix their tier issues. The problem is it also makes them boring as mud. Im not railing against ToB classes, but they already exist. They have their own flavour, and if you fix the fighter right then it makes sense for ToB to be multiclassed into to continue your concept. But first, you have to fix the fighter.

The next thing ppl land on is trying to shoe horn feats into the same roll as spells for wizards. Letting you swap feats out at a moments notice. Fair enough, you cant fault ppl here. They have identified the core problem which is the lack of versatility in a fighter, and this would certainly fix that.. sort of. It also fits the presumed fighter niche of "FEATS, FEATS FOR EVERYONE". I still dont much like it though. Its not overly elegant, it screams "lets be a wizard too sorta" and it makes a lot of bookkeeping. Keep that last point in mind. One of the goals for fixing the fighter is to keep book keeping down. Maybe you personally dont have a problem with it(i dont) but the fighter fills a really useful role for new players. Its easy to play, so they can work out the rules of play.

so, the problem then for fighters, and really for all mundanes is a lack of versatility. Its also the fact that fixing that problem often kills off the simplicity of the class, making it anathema to new players. We want to find a way to fix it then, but without making it too complex. As such, i feel we should aim to make the fighter a solid tier 2. Admittedly, we probably wont get there. I find it hard to see fighters specifically breaking the game, which is the yard stick by which tiers one an two are measured by, but it should make them a solid tier 3.

my suggestions to achieve this are as follows, an since this is a stream of consciousness im not going to do the legwork on those suggestions unless ppl really want to see it.

find all of the iconic, fighty feats. Things like weapon focus(eugh), armour specialties, quick draw, improved blah etc. group them into similar things. Now, make the numeric bonuses scale somewhat, an then make them into class features that are distributed amongst the levels. dont get rid of the feats though. In that list you will probably find a few things that dont fit(mage killer comes to mind). Those can be picked up with feats. In the process of this youll probably find the fighter is able to wield multiple different types of weapons(TWF, archery, shield bash etc). Thats ok. Hes called a fighter. Its supposed to be his niche. If a problem comes up in a fight, he now has an option to oppose it.

Now, the trick above is to compress those feats into class abilities. An then there are some more they need. A post above lists a bunch of things fighters probably need, an they also need some form of scaling DR, the ability to function well in armour(my preference is to ignore armour penalty for all but swimming ut whatever) and probably a bunch of other things. At this point they are getting sort of feature heavy. The irony is they probably arent as powerful as a wizard. I say ironically because whoever developed the spell system needs a smack upside the head. The amount of options open to casters is far to big, with far to little cost, an nothing we do for mundanes will ever really meet that. So we move the goal post. We arent aiming to make fighters ubir flexible to the point of challenge breaking, so this is a solid start.

[Ivanhoe]

Well, looking at the Fighter, he is essentially a blank slate. Just full bab, d10 hit die, and a single ability every other level (plus an additional at 1st). So theoretically, at best a fighter is getting 11 abilities that need to suit him for just about every situation that comes up at the gaming table. Disregarding skills for a second (of which the fighter gets the lowest trainable amount and a crappy skill list anyway), this is just pathetic.

Now, you can make the argument that the fighter needs to be more focused. It shouldn't be a fighter, it should be a tactician, or a duelist, or a soldier, but honestly while I'm sure this works, I disagree. Wizards, Clerics, and Sorcerers aren't focused in that way at all and they're fun and very powerful classes. The problem is the number and type of abilities. A wizard gets as many abilities as money can buy, and a sorcerer gets 44, minimum. Now, I think increasing the number of abilities gained is a good step. Now the Warblade increases the number of abilities available to about 30 (not including retraining old maneuvers for new abilities), which I think is a perfectly fine benchmark to have.

However, possibly more important than the number of abilities is the usefulness of the abilities. Now, this is where things get a bit tricky. Different groups have wildly different views on what is and what isn't overpowered. You'll have to find out where your group is comfortable, if they don't like the Warblade it can be for a few reasons. Your group seems to look at the class being able to do 100+ damage in a single strike as overpowered, even though that's a fairly middling 9th level maneuver. So I would suggest making abilities that allow the fighter to instead get options other than damage (which is honestly good advice anyway). From that point, make a list of what you think are cool and appropriate abilities and figure out with your GM what level you think they're applicable.

I'd also suggest keeping the names low-key. A lot of GMs I've seen get really twitchy at something called Wall of Blades, but a Parry is the same effect sounds much more like something a fighter would do.

So a starter list to help inspire what a fighter should get for cool abilities:
Improved battle-field movement
Mess around with Initiative scores
Ignore DR
Knock a flying opponent back to the ground
Say "No" to certain magical effects
Not crying in a corner because someone is scary
Status effects; blind them, make them bleed, hit their kneecap and make them unable to move, hamstring them, daze them with a blow to the head, or even stun them
Battlefield control: Moving your opponents to get them where you want them
Battlefield control: for the commander options, you can move your allies too
Block attacks
Protect allies
Get enemies to attack you
Just keep going when you should be dead
Attack multiple foes in various ways
A single powerful strike against one foe
A perfect accurate attack
Straight up slay an enemy
Be so legendary that people are more likely to listen to you
Command those around you so they are compelled to follow
Bash down anything with ease

And don't just be limited to what the fighter can do in combat. Remember, some of our best legends were about warriors. They often had additional skills beyond hitting people. They were respected and feared. They can run and organize an entire army. Set up a skirmish, and knew when they were about to be ambushed. They could scout. They could use the terrain to their advantage. You get the idea, let your imagination run wild.

This is one of the best analyses of what is wrong with the fighter design that I have read so far!

I'd like to add the following perspectives:

The fighter was designed to be balanced with, say, the wizard by:

assuming that his bigger constant hp, AC (the low-medium levels) would be needed in the group when the wizard runs out of spells
the feats would mean the fighter gets the highest damage output (correct to a certain degree, but mostly only vs individual foes)
and that this would be enough for most games, making out-of-combat abilities negligible (so, only 2 skill points/level, limited skill list, no special abilities).
moreover, magic items (as in many legends and myths) were supposed to keep the fighter relevant at the high/magic-intense levels (penetrating magic foes' defenses, boosting own defenses vs dangerous magic, teleporting, flying, etc).


We can say that this design objective has failed, since

most groups, even when not yet in the "scry and die/15min adventuring day" mode yet will have a gaming evening only with one combat as a highlight. So all casters just nova and dominate everything, from very early on.
feats really hurt the moment more sourcebooks out of core are added compared to the many ability/spell slots casters have and which now can all be boosted compared to just 11 bonus feats of the fighter.
many groups love infiltration or intrigue games, enjoy figuring out riddles or revealing the true BBEG power behind the throne. For all of this, a fighter (as his name implies) is near useless.
finally, people hate magic marts and a lot of DMs love to restrict magic item access, while allowing casters free access to all spells since getting that teleport scroll is considered so much less broken often than providing a fighter with a permanent flying item.


So, to fix the fighter, the design should take into what kind of gaming is mostly played. Concretely, this means:

fighter should get 1/x/day abilities that are way more powerful than feats; similar to caster power level (ToB points into the direction, but is still much weaker than spells in that regard)
Possibly get either rid of feats or multiply the number of feats the fighter gets once non-core material is in, so that he can also use all those options instead of making tough choices that casters do not need to make.
Widen the skill list and increase skill points and/or give non-combat special abilities (for instance something like game-relevant boosts to a leadership route...). Again, ToB or the thug ACF provide some first steps into that direction.
Give the fighters things like ancestral weapon or item familiar that he desgins himself and that grows in power with him as he levels. No more magic mart needed. Or some VoP variant that provides powers instead of magic items.

[OldTrees1]

The next thing ppl land on is trying to shoe horn feats into the same roll as spells for wizards. Letting you swap feats out at a moments notice. Fair enough, you cant fault ppl here.

This was convincing.


find all of the iconic, fighty feats. Things like weapon focus(eugh), armour specialties, quick draw, improved blah etc. group them into similar things. Now, make the numeric bonuses scale somewhat, an then make them into class features that are distributed amongst the levels.

Initially I was shocked at the idea of giving the Fighter an extra 25ish feats. However as the initial impression passed, I could not see a way to abuse this new gift. It increases the combat options without noticeably increasing the optimization ceiling.



So, to fix the fighter, the design should take into what kind of gaming is mostly played. Concretely, this means:

fighter should get 1/x/day abilities that are way more powerful than feats; similar to caster power level (ToB points into the direction, but is still much weaker than spells in that regard)

While I agree that Fighter should get some abilities that are balanced with the most common kind of gaming in mind. This does not necessitate limited use abilities. Just increase their constant strength by a fraction of the amount you would have if you were to make it a limited use ability. (If you wanted to give them +30 utils per work day as a limited ability. Instead consider giving them a constant +30 / number of times the ability is used in the common workday)
Why do I think it is important to solve Fighter without merely slapping limited use abilities on it? Because some of the appeal Fighter has despite being outdone by ToB is that Fighter relies on constant ability rather than limited use abilities. Removing this style of play from the game is a risky move at best and inconsiderate at worst.

[Ivanhoe]

Why do I think it is important to solve Fighter without merely slapping limited use abilities on it? Because some of the appeal Fighter has despite being outdone by ToB is that Fighter relies on constant ability rather than limited use abilities. Removing this style of play from the game is a risky move at best and inconsiderate at worst.

Yes, it may be risky. It depends probably on the group.
When a group likes nova play, then a fighter should be re-designed to match that (basically going even beyond ToB in that regard).
When a group enjoys having many encounters per day (in a deadline scenario, a full-scale battle lasting a whole day, an ongoing arena fighting etc.), then the fighter possibly does not need getting more nova abilities, but can make use of his solid constant chassis.

[OldTrees1]

Yes, it may be risky. It depends probably on the group.
When a group likes nova play, then a fighter should be re-designed to match that (basically going even beyond ToB in that regard).
When a group enjoys having many encounters per day (in a deadline scenario, a full-scale battle lasting a whole day, an ongoing arena fighting etc.), then the fighter possibly does not need getting more nova abilities, but can make use of his solid constant chassis.

I would base the design of the fighter class on the fighter player's preference rather than group average preference. Otherwise I agree.

So if the player preferred constant abilities despite preferring the 15 minute work day...

[Drachasor]

The Fighter needs mobility and versatility.

I think....
6 skill points per level
All good saves

Certain Blow: If they use a standard action on an attack, they deal double damage.

Athletic: Bonus on Jump and Climb checks equal to half their level. At level 5 they can take 10 at any time on these skills. At level 8 they can jump as high as their jump check and climb at their full speed. At 12th level their jump results are doubled...(add continuing buffs until 20).

Wounding Strike: They can spend an attack to wound part of an enemy. They choose to disable a body part (fort save), supernatural, or spell-like ability (will saves), DC 10+1/2 Level+Strength or Dex. If successful then the opponent can't use that body part for a minute, they are healed to full, or until they receive healing magic that removes fatigue (but immunity to fatigue does not prevent this ability). This attack deals normal damage, and this ability can only be used once every other round.

Willful: One per minute they can break any targeted affect with a duration that has targeted them. Or they can gain a +5 bonus on all skill checks and saves, and ignore any miss chance for one round.

Anyhow, they need stuff like that. Hmm, they also need something that lets them climb on dragons and force the dragon to fly into the ground.

Edit: And they need to be able to ignore hardness too.

Though, buffing skills in a sensible way would help non-magic characters.

Optionally, remove a lot of the bad feats and add a lot of GOOD feats and give a fighter a feat every level.


Have you ever taken even a cursory glance at medieval and Renaissance swordsmanship schools? You'd be lucky to find something that sounds as serious as "Sapphire Nightmare Blade."

People never seem to care about this. Nor that the effect of ToB is actually pretty realistic. Ignorance is bliss.

[Alent]

Warning: In a bit of a goofy mood ATM. Post may be excessively snarky and contain high amounts of non-blue sarcasm, no offense or malice is meant towards anyone or anything except the Fighter and possibly several 3.x writers. I also haven't read half of this thread yet, since it happened while I was writing, so sorry if I retread points.


Not to beat a dead horse, but we all know that a fighter is just an npc class with feats. Which saddens me since i love the class so much. When i read the class description, i imagine this great force which can stand against dragons and vanquish demons. What i get is a guy turning into a magic item shops display window. So before i work on any homebrew, im wanting to ask the playgrounders what it would take to fix the fighter and make him viable. And please no ToB, what that book did was amazing yes but i want to offer a different feel than that. I want the bad ass from the movies who's power with his weapon is awe inspiring and his ability on the field is the stuff of legends.

I don't understand why so many people have a problem with ToB's "feel" but want the feel of a good movie badass. If you want someone from the movies achieving impossible feats of awe inspiring heroics, Asian martial arts Choreography is almost always more enjoyable to watch. I'd love to see some Asian martial arts movies make movies set in europe using some of the resurrected european longsword styles.

The "it's so cool" choreography seems to be why so many people on the ninja side of the ninja vs pirate debate believe if you take a highwayman, make him asian, dress him in black and give him shuriken he's somehow better. He's still the same poor dullard farmer turned to highwayman because his field went fallow, but now somehow the black outfit throwing sharpened spades that have had the handle removedKunai is an invincible powerhouse, capable of taking down ancient an ancient sorceress after seducing her and her innocent handmaiden both. (spoiler: he takes the handmaiden home with him in the end and she turns out to be a kitsune in the second movie, and runs away because mundanes can't have nice things.)

As off topic as that seems, that right there is our clue as to what's missing from Fighter: Identity, and applicability.

First, as you've noticed, the fighter is the stone in stone soup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Soup). His identity is whatever ingredient you bring to the table. The issue here is that not every identity is equal, and once you bring it you get someone else. "I'm going to be a sneaky, dirty fighter." You now have either a Thug fighter or a rogue. "I'm going to be a master tactician" You now have a Marshal. "I'm going to be a hunter." You now have a Ranger.

So instead, we bring the flavor we perceive to be Fighter: "I want to be that awesome swordsman from the movies!" What do we get? Warblade. Warblade was made to be that choreographed epic swordmaster from the movies, blurring the line between western movie heroes and asian movie heroes.

Now let's look at Applicability.



"Lucille, God gave me a gift. I shovel well. I shovel very well." - The Shoveler

A Fighter has one trait we consider his even though it isn't: his BAB. It isn't a superpower, it just equates to hitting the same guy over and over again with a stick that comes in three flavors: Piercing, Slashing, and Crushing. Sometimes he throws the stick, sometimes he launches it from a bunch of horns glued together with something's lard, but usually he swings it.

That is really only applicable to one niche. So we shower him with magic items. You don't want that, and nor should you- it cheapens your legitimate victory.

Now, flipping back to the exaggerated Ninja parody, the Ninja actually suffers the same problem, here. DMs, Scriptwriters, and Choreographers spend excessive amounts of time trying to think of things that seem like problems to the Ninja but can be solved with clever* application of hitting things with recycled farm tools, throwing recycled farm tools, or the sudden appearance of a guest star who uses magic- usually an onmyoji with his talisman magicWizard who casts grease.

*) for varying degrees of clever, often interchangeable with contrived. I think there's also a fallacy term for this in relation to justifying D&D class balance.

So, let's look at some classic fighter skills in movies.


- - + - -

When it comes to Healing, there are two kinds of fighter: The guy who says "just stitch me up" while pretending something doesn't hurt because the doctor is a hot lady*, and the guy who sews his own cuts together and cauterizes his own wounds with a branding iron before riding back into battle, using weapons as if he was never wounded until poked in the right place by the antagonist/the dragon/the judas, to raise the tension before his dramatic victory.

*) Gender roles reversible for female fighters.

The first is essentially fighter as we have now - "patch me up, cleric". The second is sort of representable by using a fighter who has ranks in heal, but then you have to get into drown healing and other odd shenanigans to actually be healthy enough to go back on the front lines for the day's second encounter of five. A fighter fix should address this somehow.


- - + - -

When it comes to being the party face, the Fighter is at a disadvantage since cha is his dump stat. This one's fuzzy enough I usually gloss over it- DMs will often be forced to treat whatever character he's speaking with as the party face and just roleplay it, even if the fighter is a half dragon half water orc half aberration dwarf in the elfwood.

Strictly, the party face angle could be addressed by giving the fighter more skill points- he NEEDS them anyway.


- - + - -

Puzzles are another area where literary convention betrays our poor fighter. Not because he isn't good at them - on the contrary, MacGyver himself is probably something like a 6th level fighter with houseruled crafting feats, extra skill ranks awarded by backstory, the ultimate masterwork crafting tool, and a vow of pacifism.

No, the problem here is one with hints of stormwind: Int is a fighter dump stat. Warblade fixed this by letting you add Int all over the place. Any good fighter fix is going to do this- it will add more skill ranks by itself, and it will make it seem less absurd to people who think that a half dragon half water orc human with 7 int like Worf* can't solve puzzles and shouldn't be able to roleplay solving them.

This one is pretty much an awkward point for Fighters. Solving puzzles is going to take creative play, which usually relies on tools or abilities you've brought with you. For a wizard... this means magic and whatever is in his spell component pouch. For a fighter... this whatever is in his bag of holding... which usually means magic items.

*) Worf was chosen as an example because he embodies the Worf EffectFighters can't have nice things trope- he's played as lower int than everyone around him, he's got a few racial templates, and he still gets tossed around the bridge every time a race with sufficiently advanced magic shows up and needs to look awesome. Despite this, he still flies spaceships and performs rocket surgery. He can also formulate military tactics in three dimensions, which is something most D&D players can't do. He's also Mr. T in space.


- - + - -

Battlefield Control is often irrelevant in movies. Our fighter, being the star, is the focus of attention- he rarely even needs to work to keep it because the antagonist wants him dead for some reason that's badly defined and usually makes no sense.

That said, one thing I often see in movies that is actually a fairly big point fighters lack in D&D is "the dance"- the standoff where both the fighter and his opponents float at the edge of each other's range, testing each others defenses before they both commit to an attack. The D20 system just calls this "base attack range" and moves on.

I'm not honestly sure how to address this without revamping D20. Readied actions and ToB counters are the closest things you can accomplish here. There's more theatrical game systems, and strangely 2e actually does this side of fighter better.


- - + - -

I could probably go on, but it's getting late, I'm tired, and I think I've given you enough food for thought on the "movie fighter" as differentiated from the "stone soup fighter". I'm also not meaning to poke holes in any propositions, just snark at the problem itself as a way of thinking about it from a different angle.

The thing I think is important to take away here is that depending on theatrics and narrative convention is not going to fix fighter by itself, and that it's immensely difficult to fix dependence on magic items- or just items in general- without changing the system itself. This is one thing I will give to pathfinder, as it becomes possible for many classes to get most of the core numeric bonuses strictly from level. It's just numbers, it doesn't give us a wide degree of variety to work with, but it does grant some base competency without magemart.

There's other threads that have discussed "necessary magic items" and some are highly DM specific - not every DM believes his players should be flying all over the place like birds by level 11. I think DMs should discourage magical flight unless the setting emphasizes it and makes it commonly available. For example, a setting based on Skies of Arcadia should have, at baseline, some common, mundane crafted flight options. A setting based in medieval times where wizards just cast overland flight and it sucks to be fighter is bad and actually the fault of the setting designer for failing to consider how everything should fit into the world- but then we're starting to look beyond fighter and most fighter fixes emphasize fixing fighter in a vacuum.

Designing in a vacuum is wrong.

I know on the setting I'm building for my group, I'm redesigning the fighter as a part of the setting, but that fighter revamp will be closely, almost inseparably, linked to the campaign setting he's designed for. At the same time, I'm also looking at adjusting the casters for the setting, because I don't want Greyhawk's omnipotent archmagi in towers ruling the world, I want casters to be a less powerful, integral part of society- as integral as fighter.

I don't want this to be confused for the fallacy that says Fighter is fine as long as the DM throws him a bone. Fighter should be DM proof. To that end the game/setting designer needs to make a coherent world where Fighters have a role supported by fluff and fill that role by class features, and real class features- not bonus feats- that can be empirically tested and verified under RAW conditions.

It just goes way beyond a simple fighter fix.

[Rondodu]

Consider the iconic warrior of fiction. He elbows past mooks to face the enemy captain, locks blades with him, headbutts him to break the lock, throws a dagger down to nail his foot to the ground, knocks him off-balance with his shield, delivers a punishing blow to a weak spot in the armour that wounds the foe, and then beheads him while he's in shock - all in a span of seconds. These are diverse actions that are very poorly represented by the current system.But… shouldn’t that be fluff? I mean can’t combat be more than dice rolling without adding more rules? Do you (indefinite you) really need a rule which tells you how to headbutt a guy to do it?

[Ivanhoe]

A Fighter has one trait we consider his even though it isn't: his BAB. It isn't a superpower, it just equates to hitting the same guy over and over again with a stick that comes in three flavors: Piercing, Slashing, and Crushing. Sometimes he throws the stick, sometimes he launches it from a bunch of horns glued together with something's lard, but usually he swings it.

While full BAB is certainly not that hot, it basically means more than you just described. From level 6 onwards, you get several actions per round, compared with less actions from spells (usually, of course, unless celerity and swift/immediate actions say hello...).
If there were more combat maneuvers apart from trip, grapple etc., every attack could be filled with something powerful in effect (for instance, a greater dispel instead of an attack action or some such).


No, the problem here is one with hints of stormwind: Int is a fighter dump stat. Warblade fixed this by letting you add Int all over the place. Any good fighter fix is going to do this- it will add more skill ranks by itself, and it will make it seem less absurd to people who think that a half dragon half water orc human with 7 int like Worf* can't solve puzzles and shouldn't be able to roleplay solving them.

Well, there is the knowledge devotion feat which makes INT-based fighters possible. Also, the combat expertise tree is based on INT 13+. MAD is certainly in issue (also for the Warblade), but then just use higher point buy.
Hey wait, maybe the fighter could be balanced by just allowing way more point buy than for others like the wizard. (though I am not sure how many mor ability points a fighter needs to have to equate teleport and gate...):smallwink:


I don't want this to be confused for the fallacy that says Fighter is fine as long as the DM throws him a bone. Fighter should be DM proof. To that end the game/setting designer needs to make a coherent world where Fighters have a role supported by fluff and fill that role by class features, and real class features- not bonus feats- that can be empirically tested and verified under RAW conditions.

It just goes way beyond a simple fighter fix.

Well, basically all classes are dependent on DM interpretations and a DM throwing bones...:smallbiggrin:

[Dienekes]

But… shouldn’t that be fluff? I mean can’t combat be more than dice rolling without adding more rules? Do you (indefinite you) really need a rule which tells you how to headbutt a guy to do it?

Well, there are two frames of mind on that, if you will excuse the false dichotomy for the sake of brevity. Yours, in which the combat abilities should be abstracted, and mine/Flickerdart's where it shouldn't.

If you abstract combat, you gain the benefit of simplification. You attack, you can fluff the attack as anything you want. Which is a reasonable way to do things. It also allows the player to imagine his character to be able to fight in a cinematic and interesting way without the prerequisite of a feat or ability beforehand.

Unfortunately, if you abstract to far what you're left with is a fighter who does only one thing: attack for hit point damage. That's it. You can fluff it however you want, but in the end it just comes out in hit point damage. After awhile, for me anyway, that gets boring. You also have to remember that the fighter is in a game in which it has to compete for effectiveness with magic-using classes. Magic is not abstracted in this system, at all. There are spells that all have very specific effects, many of which completely negate the need for hp damaging abilities. So, to create a more mechanically interesting class the level of abstraction has to decreased in order to make specific types of attacks into things other than hit point damage.

Again, the level of detail here is heavily dependent on the comfort your gaming group has with tier levels and the problems of magic vs mundane conflict resolution. I'm sure there are a large number of gaming groups that have never had a monk outclassed by a wizard at their table. That's fine, probably don't need as many or any changes at those tables. But, for others like me who have seen the discrepancy in power in all its ugliness, changes have to be made.

[The Insanity]

Copy-paste Warblade, but change names of his abilities and name him "Fighter Fixed".

[JusticeZero]

One, lots more feats. I know it's the same stuff everyone else gets, but they should have enough to use them frivolously.
Two, leadership tricks. Their skills should actually be inspiring; give them teamwork buffs and party buffs powered by being impressive in battle.

[Telonius]

Bigger numbers don't really solve the basic problem (i.e. being compared to casters and ability to solve encounters) but it can help around the edges. My own fighter-applicable houserules:

- Weapon Focus grants a bonus equal to Fighter Level/5 (minimum 1). Greater Weapon Focus doubles the bonus.
- Weapon Specialization grants a bonus equal to 2*(Fighter Level/5). Greater Weapon Specialization doubles the bonus.

- Fighters get 4+Int skill points per level.
- At level 5, Fighters gain the "Adaptable Focus" class ability. Once a day Fighters can spend 1 hour practicing with a weapon to change the kind of weapon for which they have Focus or Specialization. This designation lasts until the Fighter spends an hour to change the weapon focus again.

The idea is that the Fighter is supposed to be the best at (drumroll....) fighting. Right now, he's not. Bumping up the numbers on the iconic (and awful) Focus and Specialization lines gives players some reason to take them - or stay in the class at all, since they scale specifically with Fighter levels.

I've been doing more tinkering with my Paladin and Ranger houserules recently, but there's definitely room for more goodies. I have been toying with the idea of making Weapon Focus a bonus feat at first, then making the other feats into Class Features (and freeing up feat space for other things), but haven't really decided on that yet.

[ericgrau]

Not to beat a dead horse, but we all know that a fighter is just an npc class with feats. Which saddens me since i love the class so much. When i read the class description, i imagine this great force which can stand against dragons and vanquish demons. What i get is a guy turning into a magic item shops display window. So before i work on any homebrew, im wanting to ask the playgrounders what it would take to fix the fighter and make him viable. And please no ToB, what that book did was amazing yes but i want to offer a different feel than that. I want the bad ass from the movies who's power with his weapon is awe inspiring and his ability on the field is the stuff of legends.

You will never keep up with high op, so I would focus on normal/low op. There damage can actually be useful. The problem is that it's boring. I would give them a way to pick redundant feats without gimping themselves from loss of focus. I had a homebrew that did this by basically giving you free feats as long as they didn't synergize well, but it was a bit clunky. Providing new special abilities can work too which is why ToB gets so much attention. But not the feel I like either. Core special attacks are nice too, but can only be used so often. You might take those further.

I wouldn't dis magic items too much as they are an integral part of the system. I've made a couple chars who out-versatiled the party wizard by a good margin with my grab bag simply because I put more thought in it than he put into his utility spells. While even a commoner could use many of them, some are related to swinging a weapon. Besides "stuff of legends" maybe you could create another optional variant that works better than other classes with magic items besides attack/mobility magic items. Sort of a 60s Batman utility belt.

I've actually made some fun fighters with items and special attacks, and I can never get enough feats to satisfy me. You might expand one or all 3 of those. And focus more on fun than the futile and pointless effort of crushing sudden jaunt, SR bypassing, spontaneous divination, 5 days of scry prep Schrodinger wizards.

[Person_Man]

You can check out my Fighter fix, the Knight Champion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16056437).


Key issues that any Fighter fix should resolve:

1) Fighter needs actual class features that do things, and not numerical bonuses. The Fighter can already deal excellent damage, has a good to-hit, and has good AC. More of those things don't really fix anything. I would also say that it's a terrible design mistake to make a class numerically superior in all things (Saving Throws, hit points, BAB, Skills, armor, weapons, etc). A class needs both strengths and weaknesses.

2) The list of class features need to scale with levels. With the exception of damage multipliers (which has a diminishing return at high levels of optimization), most Feats generally stop scaling around ECL 6 or lower. Few Feats are the equivalent of mid to high level class abilities/spells/powers/vestiges/etc possessed by other classes.

3) The list of class features should allow the player to fill multiple different Niches. Only being able to fill Melee Damage, Meat Shield, and Ranged Damage adequately well severely limits the players options in the game. (Conversely, it's equally bad design if a class can fill every Niche amazingly well, as a few Tier 1 classes can). Check my Niche ranking system or this discussion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=329912) for context.

4) The player needs to be able to change out the class features in some way. Being permanently "locked in" to all of your build choices minimizes your flexibility, and punishes players for trying interesting/different things that may not work out.

[SinsI]

I think that instead of Bonus Feats, Fighter should select a whole subfighter class to gestalt instead - something like Swashbuckler, Kensai, Dervish...
Every Fighter level thereafter is a Gestalt with that class.

As he progresses, he can add additional subfighter gestalt classes.

[strider24seven]

How to Fix a Fighter:
Give him Shapechange (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4210.msg83125#msg83125).

[ngilop]

Yes fixing the fighter is going to be beyond simple.

I knwo for me, personally. The idea behind and the inpsiration behind is not the action movie star like Jet Li or Sylvester Stallone but heroes of the anceint world Heracles, Indrajit, Beowulf, Ajax, Lu Bu and others

To me leave the walking on air and other wushu stuff to the monk.

I see the fighter as being firmly rooted in what a mundane can do. No Fighter is ever going to bring the dead back to life or summon beings from the great beyond to do his will.

But being able to jump hundreds of feet, sunder time/space to create a gate to the underworld, train men to me better warriors themselves
check check and check

I am of course still working on my own Fighter Re-Tool (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318268). But constantly in my mind are the thoughts of memories of who those heroes of yore could do, and how do i best incorporate those into the game mechanics

to touch earlier on to what rondulu asked. thats my biggest gripe about 3rd ed. It became more rule-playing than role playing (of course stripping the figjhter of every ability he ever had and then giving it to every other class while making spell more powerful and taking away any hindrances they might have is the 2nd) Literally you cannot do something becuase there is no rule and heres is something else MR. Wizard has free reign on creating his own spells at any time he wants at any point. while mr Fighter is specifiall called out with the ' no the fighter can never make his own new feats, yes we know he is supposed to be the master of combat in all of its form, but he is too stupif to actually make a new combat style, or a new form of attack or whatever"

[Dienekes]

How to Fix a Fighter:
Give him Shapechange (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4210.msg83125#msg83125).

Is that Sir Monks-Partially-Charged-Wands Giacomo? Man whatever happened to that guy?

[Rubik]

Is that Sir Monks-Partially-Charged-Wands Giacomo? Man whatever happened to that guy?He's currently Sir Not-Appearing-In-This-Forum.

[Stoneback]

How to Fix a Fighter:
Give him Shapechange (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4210.msg83125#msg83125).

Well. As long as we're on that tear, I hear E6 is pretty balanced. :smallamused:

[Talakeal]

One problem I have with the fire and forget maneuvers is that they make a fight like this impossible:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CDt9FrVOPZk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DCDt9FrVOPZk

Also, both ToB need a fighter to "memorize" a small set of powers before a fight rather than just going in ready for anything, and they also forget all of their low levels maneuvers, which both leaves them free of vital options and flies in the face of everything we know about how human beings work in the real world.



As for my fighter fixes:
All good saving throws (although keep evasion, mettle, slippery mind, still mind, etc out of their reach)
Give them 4 plus int skills per level
Give them way more class skills. At the very least the perception skills, heal, and balance / tumble.
Make mundane healing do something.
Give fighters a feat every level.
Make weapon focus / specialization as well as the phb2 armor and shield specialization and weapon mastery passive fighter class features and make them scale with level. Maybe do the same with the mage hunter feats from complete arcane, at least make sure those feats are available to every fighter by putting them in core / srd.
Make maneuvers like trip and bullrush work on all size categories of monsters.
Give mundanes some way to dispel standing spells and cut through force effects.
Add BAB to damage on a standard attack. (Not full attack)
Do something to make a fighter better able to tank, whether this be a 4e style mark, a knights challenge, pfs come and get it feat, or simply allowing them to always make an aoo even if the enemy tumbles or five foot steps.


Then if you want to play a more mythical fighter add a system for feats of superhuman strength like moving mountains, swimming oceans, or jumping cliffs.

[CombatOwl]

Not to beat a dead horse, but we all know that a fighter is just an npc class with feats. Which saddens me since i love the class so much. When i read the class description, i imagine this great force which can stand against dragons and vanquish demons. What i get is a guy turning into a magic item shops display window. So before i work on any homebrew, im wanting to ask the playgrounders what it would take to fix the fighter and make him viable. And please no ToB, what that book did was amazing yes but i want to offer a different feel than that. I want the bad ass from the movies who's power with his weapon is awe inspiring and his ability on the field is the stuff of legends.

Fundamentally? Low hit points needs to hinder enemies, and fighters ought to have a class feature that makes it hinder them less. That's the only thing that would "fix" fighters.

New and innovative ways of doing more hit point damage is meaningless until you get rid of that last point.

[Talakeal]

Fundamentally? Low hit points needs to hinder enemies, and fighters ought to have a class feature that makes it hinder them less. That's the only thing that would "fix" fighters.

New and innovative ways of doing more hit point damage is meaningless until you get rid of that last point.

Players absolutely hate "death spiral" systems. I have experimented with them, and it always has the effects of making a bad situation worse and causing players to rage quit the game once things start to go bad.

It is also a giant pita for DMs to keep track of so many modifiers for every npc.

[rexx1888]

on another note, death spiral systems are a pain for players to keep track of as well, and they almost always forget that they have penalties or some such.

Personally, i think something like wound cards might be the go. They give players a specific effect AND its something right there, that they are holding, that is sitting wherever they look first thats easy to remember. And if your nice, make some wound cards do nice things in addition to bad things, so that players feel more inclined to gamble and not throw a tantrum the minute they take a steak knife to the eye lol.

[lumberingmenace]

Up the hit die to a d12
Get a feat every level
Increase max dex bonus on different armor classes by scale to your level
Built in sr increases like saves.

The last suggestion is good for all mundanes.

[Flickerdart]

Up the hit die to a d12
Get a feat every level
Increase max dex bonus on different armor classes by scale to your level
Built in sr increases like saves.

The last suggestion is good for all mundanes.
None of those things actually let the fighter do anything new, though. Numbers are not his problem. Numbers are easy to get.

[Harrow]

Fighter(Exoticist, Zhentarim soldier)
Feat cost (in order, overlapping feats are only counted the first time) 3, 2, 2, 1, 1, 2, 3, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 = 19 feats
Top feat included per category: Boomerang Daze, Ride-by-Attack, Dire Flail Smash, Millitia*, Improved Grapple, Knock-down, Knockback, Improved Overrun, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Imperious Command, Improved Sunder.

*Exoticist trades martial proficiency for 4 exotic weapon proficiencies. Millitia gets those back.

So bonus feats does have potential, however Fighter needs this potential before 18th level. Being able to respect their feats at will (with meditation) helps a lot.

You know what? This. If you want to fix the Fighter, look at feats like these, Mage Slayer, Cloak Dance, Roll With It, and pretty much the rest of the Fighter Feats from the PHB and PHB II.

These all together are either essential or cool, removing an artificial penalty only put in to make another Fighter feat or abilities that would be genuinely useful if not for the killer requirements. Your average Barbarian is better at disarm attempts than your average Fighter because the Barbarian's +strength is worth more than the Fighter's extensive training, even when it comes to special combat maneuvers.

Dungeoncrasher is a good point of reference too. You could also grab effects from maneuvers and stances from ToB without activating them the same way. I'm personally a fan of both the Factotum's Inspiration Point system and the Action Point system. Skill Tricks are awesome, if more of a Rogue thing.

I guess the point to this is, there are a lot more sources that you could base new Fighter abilities off of than 'use higher numbers' and 'use ToB instead'.


If, after pouring through all of those abilities, you still don't have enough that you like to fill out a 'new' base class, then I have one last suggestion. Command. In many stories, powerful fighters have a sort of presence about them. Grace. Confidence. The White Raven discipline in ToB played off of this to some extent, mostly going the direction of using battle planning skills to help your allies. I would like to see it go another direction, Fighter's using military experience to mimic the effects of Enchantment spells. Shouting an order at an enemy bandit with so much confidence and authority (bluff check modified by fighter level) that it acts like a Command spell. At higher levels, they can just start casually ordering around random passers-by, who do as asked without thinking, effectively copying effects such as Charm, Suggestion, and Dominate.