SKR is leaving Paizo

[137beth]

Announcement here. (http://seankreynolds.com/misc/a-new-chapter-indiana.html)
Too late at night for me to write anything intelligent about it, so...thoughts?

[Firechanter]

Good! A game can only improve by SKR not being involved.

edit:
Thanks for posting this. MMD!

[Divayth Fyr]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHQLQ1Rc_Js

This will likely not only help the game itself, but also Paizo's image - SKR wasn't really popular and his forum posts often didn't help.

[MythicParty]

The thread over at Paizo has been pretty balanced (tough but fair) in reaction:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qpk9?Sean-K-Reynolds-is-leaving-Paizo

[Krazzman]

The design team knows I am available to help them on future books,

This is the only sentence bugging me...

Hopefully all works as planned for him and he really can focus on his writing as the design decisions he made that I know of didn't really suited my style of play.

[Drachasor]

Probably a good thing for Paizo. Definitely good for their public image. His design ability wasn't great, but it is hard to say where he stood in relation to everyone else on the team -- most of them don't go on the forums.


The thread over at Paizo has been pretty balanced (tough but fair) in reaction:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qpk9?Sean-K-Reynolds-is-leaving-Paizo

Eh? I don't see it.

[MythicParty]

Like this:
"While I may not like him very much and I clash with him on rules, it's going to be a sad day when he leaves. He's a talented designer with many years of experience and I hope him all the best luck in his future endeavors."

and

"I always appreciate your ability to sum up the reasons behind rules in just a couple of sentences."

Fair & balanced IMO.

[Drachasor]

Like this:
"While I may not like him very much and I clash with him on rules, it's going to be a sad day when he leaves. He's a talented designer with many years of experience and I hope him all the best luck in his future endeavors."

and

"I always appreciate your ability to sum up the reasons behind rules in just a couple of sentences."

Fair & balanced IMO.

FOX news agrees with you, I suppose.

On the other hand, I don't see how you could say those statements are "tough."

[Firechanter]

Yeah. It's pure cotton candy, considering this is about a designer who still doesn't comprehend the system he himself helped write 14 frigging years ago.

[MythicParty]

On the other hand, I don't see how you could say those statements are "tough."

I meant the guy that started his post with, "While I may not like him very much."

I think that's a reasonable reaction to SKR. He had a prickly personality, didn't seem to put any Ranks into Diplomacy, & no one is likely to shed any tears that he's leaving. Well, except those of joy from Nerd Rage.

But I don't need to like the singer to enjoy the song.

[Alent]

I don't know what to think about this, but I kind of think we'll need a few years to learn what it means for D20 in general.

Not that he'll ever see it, but I wish Mr. Reynolds the best of luck in finding a job more suited to him as a person. He wasn't very well matched to what he did at Paizo and many of us ended up angry at him as a consequence. :smallfrown:

I just can't shake this feeling we're going to see his name all over splats now as an "independent designer".

[upho]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHQLQ1Rc_JsLMAO! Exactly the general reaction I expect from the gaming community, really.


This will likely not only help the game itself, but also Paizo's image - SKR wasn't really popular and his forum posts often didn't help.Unfortunately, I guess the image part will be most helped. We don't really know to which extent SKR was involved in designing the worst PF rules (or do we?), and we won't know if him leaving will actually improve quality until after quite some time has passed and new stuff has been published. My guess is at least two years from now, since new stuff seem to leave the basic design phases about a year prior to release.

[Drachasor]

Unfortunately, I guess the image part will be most helped. We don't really know to which extent SKR was involved in designing the worst PF rules (or do we?), and we won't know if him leaving will actually improve quality until after quite some time has passed and new stuff has been published. My guess is at least two years from now, since new stuff seem to leave the basic design phases about a year prior to release.

We know he helped with the Monk Vows which were awful. We also know he believed the game should have options that "realistically" aren't good and those options should be mechanically bad.

However, we don't know where he fit in the spectrum of other developers, nor do we know how much influence he had. So...it's hard to say. Maybe most felt like him. Maybe he was slightly more reasonable than most. Maybe he was an outlier but everyone listened to him. Maybe he was an outlier and almost no one cared about what he said. Heck, maybe he was an outlier towards consciously making bad design choices, but the others will make things they think are good but actually suck.

Overall it is hard to judge how things will change for future game mechanics even knowing a fair bit about him. It would be easier of bad mechanics/spells/prcs/whatever weren't really, really common in PF. As it is, it is hard to say what percentage of the work he was involved in and what overall effect he had beyond the scant details we've gotten.

[Alleran]

I will be interested in seeing where the PF ruleset goes from here without him.

[Saidoro]

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qpk9?Sean-K-Reynolds-is-leaving-Paizo
Wait, are you calling us munchkins?:smallwink:

[Raven777]

I think this is representative of how a lot of people will feel about this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeQifImY4Hk)

[The Grue]

I think that's a reasonable reaction to SKR. He had a prickly personality, didn't seem to put any Ranks into Diplomacy...

...not to mention Knowledge (Pathfinder rules) and Craft (Roleplaying Games).

[Palanan]

I've never really understood the intensity of dislike the Playground has for this person. Maybe that's because I don't get too emotional about the various philosophies of game design.

Now, I've only read one of his threads on the Paizo forums, in which he was being jabbed from all sides, and he did end up coming off like a tool. However, so did everyone else in that conversation--especially some of the jabbers--so the tooldom seemed pretty evenly spread.

Apart from that, I really only know of him through the commentary here on the Playground. I don't personally see any reason not to wish him well and see where he goes from here.

[Nihilarian]

I've never really understood the intensity of dislike the Playground has for this person. Maybe that's because I don't get too emotional about the various philosophies of game design.

Now, I've only read one of his threads on the Paizo forums, in which he was being jabbed from all sides, and he did end up coming off like a tool. However, so did everyone else in that conversation--especially some of the jabbers--so the tooldom seemed pretty evenly spread.

Apart from that, I really only know of him through the commentary here on the Playground. I don't personally see any reason not to wish him well and see where he goes from here.He is good with fluff, terrible with mechanics, and has been in a position to make mechanical rules.

Among other things, he literally hates the monk and tries his best to Nerf it.

[BlackDragonKing]

Honestly, I think this can only do good things for Paizo.

From what I saw of him, SKR let his personal biases cause rules problems, and he was very dismissive when people pointed out problems with design, especially in martial classes to him. The Monk and Crossbow debates are pretty well known, and he also considered the Brawler being unable to use its maneuvers, one of the class's big, exciting selling points, on an alarmingly high percentage of the threats it will encounter at high level play, no big deal. He came across as very passive-aggressive and very resistant against constructive criticism.

A designer with a bad attitude does not do good things for a game, and SKR had a seriously bad attitude on the forums. I also suspect he was the closest adherent to the asinine "realism" obsession that needlessly weakens some of the options in character-building. I just kind of wish he'd gone to seek his fortune elsewhere before the new class play test. :smallsigh:

[Giarc]

He is good with fluff, terrible with mechanics, and has been in a position to make mechanical rules.

Among other things, he literally hates the monk and tries his best to Nerf it.

Don't forget about him comparing crossbows to water balloons. And then getting mad when water balloons were found to vastly outdamage crossbows.

http://i.imgur.com/ggpamEu.jpg

[Coidzor]

Announcement here. (http://seankreynolds.com/misc/a-new-chapter-indiana.html)
Too late at night for me to write anything intelligent about it, so...thoughts?

This can only end well.

[NightbringerGGZ]

This can only be good for the game. As I've spent more times on various message boards I've learned that the rules I like the least (and have to spend the most time fixing) tend to be the ones SKR had the most involvement with. I already know I'm throwing out the upcoming Swashbuckler class for instance.

As for the other Devs, I only have experience from the most recent play test, but I think they do a good job. I spent a ton of time in the Investigator discussion thread and MacFarland did a very good job of expressing design goals and responding to criticism. He also directed the overall conversation fairly well. Shoot, he even responded to a brainstorming session to let people know they'd already gone down that path, rejected it and then explained why.

There's a world of difference in how those two devs interact with the community, and it is pretty obvious which strategy works better.

[Ziegander]

Don't forget about him comparing crossbows to water balloons. And then getting mad when water balloons were found to vastly outdamage crossbows.

http://i.imgur.com/ggpamEu.jpg

While the link is a good example of what an out-of-touch ******* SKR is, I didn't see anything about how water balloons were found to vastly outdamage crossbows. And that's what I was most interested in. :'(

[Eldest]

While the link is a good example of what an out-of-touch ******* SKR is, I didn't see anything about how water balloons were found to vastly outdamage crossbows. And that's what I was most interested in. :'(

I share both these sentiments.

[Nihilarian]

While the link is a good example of what an out-of-touch ******* SKR is, I didn't see anything about how water balloons were found to vastly outdamage crossbows. And that's what I was most interested in. :'(

Agreed. Lack of waterballoon optimization disappointed me.

[Venger]

I've never really understood the intensity of dislike the Playground has for this person. Maybe that's because I don't get too emotional about the various philosophies of game design.

Now, I've only read one of his threads on the Paizo forums, in which he was being jabbed from all sides, and he did end up coming off like a tool. However, so did everyone else in that conversation--especially some of the jabbers--so the tooldom seemed pretty evenly spread.

Apart from that, I really only know of him through the commentary here on the Playground. I don't personally see any reason not to wish him well and see where he goes from here.

While every designer has a few gaffes with the rules they make now and then, that's really not the reason we dislike SKR so much here. Even Bruce made up psionic combat, but he's a pretty good designer as a whole.

Aside from the issues with SKR's content, the primary reason for his reputation is his bad behavior when interacting with the community. He's infamous for being very rude to people when they talk to him about rules, not just when they disagree with him, but even when they try to defend him at times. Probably the most extreme example of this was when he made a ruling about monks' flurry of blows and TWF.

that said, his design philosophy, in brief, is ridiculous. for someone unfamiliar with it, all I need to say is: feat points (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/featpointsystem.html)

[The Insanity]

Good riddance.

[Big Fau]

I've never really understood the intensity of dislike the Playground has for this person. Maybe that's because I don't get too emotional about the various philosophies of game design.

Now, I've only read one of his threads on the Paizo forums, in which he was being jabbed from all sides, and he did end up coming off like a tool. However, so did everyone else in that conversation--especially some of the jabbers--so the tooldom seemed pretty evenly spread.

Apart from that, I really only know of him through the commentary here on the Playground. I don't personally see any reason not to wish him well and see where he goes from here.

90% of the Monk "errata" came from him. He tried to nerf it nearly every time the rest of his team tried to throw the class a bone. About the only time he didn't was when they printed an archtype that turns the Monk into a mini-spellcaster, because he has a huge boner for casters in general.

He's also the reason the 3.5 Sorcerer has 0 class features beyond the spells and familiar, as he outright stated that he hates the idea of spontaneous spellcasting.

[BlackDragonKing]

Agreed. Lack of waterballoon optimization disappointed me.

As I recall, someone was able to work out that opium-laced water balloons, with their no-save 1d4 Wis and Con damage per hit, could actually neutralize most encounters with far greater efficiency than an equal-level fighter that specialized in crossbows. It also made improvised thrown weapons something you might want to use more often, if you could keep up the opium supply. :smallwink:

[Eldest]

As I recall, someone was able to work out that opium-laced water balloons, with their no-save 1d4 Wis and Con damage per hit, could actually neutralize most encounters with far greater efficiency than an equal-level fighter that specialized in crossbows. It also made improvised thrown weapons something you might want to use more often, if you could keep up the opium supply. :smallwink:

Hidden Talent(Minor Creation)? Is there an equivalent in pathfinder, or do you need to dip Psion/get a friendly wizard?

[Gemini476]

As I recall, someone was able to work out that opium-laced water balloons, with their no-save 1d4 Wis and Con damage per hit, could actually neutralize most encounters with far greater efficiency than an equal-level fighter that specialized in crossbows. It also made improvised thrown weapons something you might want to use more often, if you could keep up the opium supply. :smallwink:

Ah yes, the Ninja/Monk drug dealer. It's really a shame that there aren't that many fun TO builds in pathfinder.

That sounds like a pretty scary splash weapon, to be honest.

[ngilop]

I don't really know what SKR made for 3rd ed D&D WoTC stuff

All i know is Monte Cook*, Jonathan Tweet, and Skip Williams are three people whom I have great wantings to slap the face of for.

I know there were a couple 3rd party things SKR did that seem pretty sweet for me.

It be nice if somebody could point me to a list or what not of all the things SKR did to make D&D bad please.

* Especially this guy.

[Kaisos Erranon]

At least he left before he could nerf Lore Wardens.

[BlackDragonKing]

90% of the Monk "errata" came from him. He tried to nerf it nearly every time the rest of his team tried to throw the class a bone. About the only time he didn't was when they printed an archtype that turns the Monk into a mini-spellcaster, because he has a huge boner for casters in general.

He's also the reason the 3.5 Sorcerer has 0 class features beyond the spells and familiar, as he outright stated that he hates the idea of spontaneous spellcasting.

This stuff is what boggles my mind most. Without bloodlines, there's really not much to say about the sorcerer beyond "Oh, it's a considerably less powerful wizard."

And how the hell can you hate spontaneous spell casting? It's a vastly more flavorful mechanic, it's much easier to pick up and play than prepared casting, and it's often easier to design and balance for. :smallconfused:

[Just to Browse]

Perhaps we will now get a water balloon fighter archetype.

[DR27]

I'm always glad to see the exit of a designer who advocates trap options. Not much more could be said about it.

[Perseus]

Announcement here. (http://seankreynolds.com/misc/a-new-chapter-indiana.html)
Too late at night for me to write anything intelligent about it, so...thoughts?

Well if they bring out some good stuff (mechanics) I might actually buy something from Paizo.

[Yawgmoth]

Skip Williams ... I have great wantings to slap the face of Fun story: I actually had dear ol' skippy throw a tantrum at me in a wotc chat when I asked him why anyone would ever take sorcerer over wizard when wizards get more feats, more skills, more skill points (via being int-based), and have a far greater level of utility. His response was "the sorcerer is FINE! there's nothing wrong with it, and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. Next question!" When the next question was something about melee getting shafted past level 6 or so, he just declared the chat over (40 minutes early) and dropped.

Classy guy, roughly on par with SKR in both public relations and design skill. It's really a shame that the game designer pool is so incestuous when so many of them demonstrate regularly that they haven't got a clue what they're doing with regards to math (and therefore even rudimentary balance), flavor text, or PR.

[Big Fau]

This stuff is what boggles my mind most. Without bloodlines, there's really not much to say about the sorcerer beyond "Oh, it's a considerably less powerful wizard."

And how the hell can you hate spontaneous spell casting? It's a vastly more flavorful mechanic, it's much easier to pick up and play than prepared casting, and it's often easier to design and balance for. :smallconfused:

He's an old-school D&D fan, who thinks being able to cast on the fly is too useful. He admitted that spontaneous casting doesn't fit in his "vision" of the game; whether he bans them at his table or not is something I don't know, but I wouldn't put it past him.

[Ziegander]

magic missile is a benchmark for spells because it's the best 1st-level spell

Guys, I just... I can't.

[ngilop]

in regards to what yawgmoth posted.

Im not sure that its they
haven't got a clue what they're doing with regards to math (and therefore even rudimentary balance), flavor text, or PR

But i think the dastardly trio wanted to give caster a huge, HUGE, HUGE power canyon over any non caster for whatever reason they did.

Thats why the destroyed the Fighter, rogue, paladin, ranger, (especially the fighter) and removed any and all limitation on spells when going from 2nd to 3rd ed and then to make matters worse they thought ' hey, let gives the spell caster spells that deliberatly make any class completely worthless that do not have these same spells' Then that way instead of just admitting their own personal spellcaster hard-on Monte Cook can do the ivory tower point ( i think that what it was called) and say spell caster players are smarter than non spell caster players and therefore have more system mastery LIKE IN MAGIC: THE GATHERING

thats why i want to slap Monte the most out of any of the trio.

Just leaving in the limitation on spells and not removing everything that made fighters, rogues and such actually decent would have went leaps and bounds to making 3rd ed more balanced between 'do you have spells y/n?'

[Zombulian]

Guys, I just... I can't.

That's almost as bad as deciding that Druids were balanced after the playtester LITERALLY NEVER USED WILDSHAPE.

[BlackDragonKing]

Guys, I just... I can't.

Well, the camp that feels there is no martial-caster disparity tends to be thinking in terms of "making things dead quick-like", so it might make sense that SKR, who sees no problem in Wizards outperforming other classes like it's going out of style, would stick to the attack that always hits for damage as opposed to the 1st-level spells that trivialize entire encounters.

[Perseus]

in regards to what yawgmoth posted.

Im not sure that its they

But i think the dastardly trio wanted to give caster a huge, HUGE, HUGE power canyon over any non caster for whatever reason they did.

Thats why the destroyed the Fighter, rogue, paladin, ranger, (especially the fighter) and removed any and all limitation on spells when going from 2nd to 3rd ed and then to make matters worse they thought ' hey, let gives the spell caster spells that deliberatly make any class completely worthless that do not have these same spells' Then that way instead of just admitting their own personal spellcaster hard-on Monte Cook can do the ivory tower point ( i think that what it was called) and say spell caster players are smarter than non spell caster players and therefore have more system mastery LIKE IN MAGIC: THE GATHERING

thats why i want to slap Monte the most out of any of the trio.

Just leaving in the limitation on spells and not removing everything that made fighters, rogues and such actually decent would have went leaps and bounds to making 3rd ed more balanced between 'do you have spells y/n?'

I never understood why casters got to play in High Fantasy from level 1... And yet the mundanes could only play in low fantasy.

What are these guys afraid of? The world exploding? *sigh*

[georgie_leech]

Well, the camp that feels there is no martial-caster disparity tends to be thinking in terms of "making things dead quick-like", so it might make sense that SKR, who sees no problem in Wizards outperforming other classes like it's going out of style, would stick to the attack that always hits for damage as opposed to the 1st-level spells that trivialize entire encounters.

Eh, even by that standard, Power Word Pain (http://dndtools.eu/spells/races-of-the-dragon--83/power-word-pain--3090/) is a thing. An average of 35 damage over 10 rounds at level 1 is hard to sneeze at.

[Venger]

Eh, even by that standard, Power Word Pain (http://dndtools.eu/spells/races-of-the-dragon--83/power-word-pain--3090/) is a thing. An average of 35 damage over 10 rounds at level 1 is hard to sneeze at.

it's generally agreed upon that power word pain and power word distract got their levels switched. PWP is more reasonable as a 4th, and PWD sucks unreasoningly for a 4th, but is pretty decent as a 1st.

[georgie_leech]

it's generally agreed upon that power word pain and power word distract got their levels switched. PWP is more reasonable as a 4th, and PWD sucks unreasoningly for a 4th, but is pretty decent as a 1st.

Yeah, but that isn't what they published now is it? :smalltongue:

That's kind of the point though. If a mistake is made, you need to acknowledge it and (possibly) try to fix it. Maybe a bit of errata saying to change the levels for the spells. Pretending like it didn't happen* just ends up perpetuating the problem.

*Or in SKR's case, arguing that it was totally intentional to reward smart players :smallbiggrin:

[Squirrel_Dude]

As a wrestling fan, all I can say is that I wish SKR the best in all future endeavors.



Guys, I just... I can't.Fireball changes the paradigm of the game, don'tcha know?

[Perseus]

As a wrestling fan, all I can say is that I wish SKR the best in all future endeavors.


Fireball changes the paradigm of the game, don'tcha know?

Pshaw, if you want to shift some paradigms you better take dodge and mobility, now those are some paradigm shifting abilities I tell you what.

[DR27]

*Or in SKR's case, arguing that it was totally intentional to reward smart players :smallbiggrin:That totally didn't need to be in blue, he actually directly said those things.

[georgie_leech]

That totally didn't need to be in blue, he actually directly said those things.

Maybe; I'm being generous though and assuming that not every outlier was a deliberate attempt at making trap options. Also, trying to avoid turning this into a thread all about SKR bashing.

Speaking of which; I'm more or less in a "wait and see" frame about this. I'd be curious to see whether a lot of his errata's are changed once he leaves, or if they remain. In the latter, I'd also wonder whether it's out of respect for a former colleague, or if the other developers agree with them.

[Silva Stormrage]

That totally didn't need to be in blue, he actually directly said those things.

Ya but a lot of people don't think he actually had that kind of foresight and was just retroactively making things up.

[DireSloth]

Have nothing to say really since i do not play Pathfinder, but i have a request. For research/hilarity purposes, does any one have links to the threads/articles where SKR or the aformentioned designers have written those gems?

I have read about the ivory tower (if its called that way), but never read the article itself, or the ones where wizard players are smarter than mundane-class players, druid playtester not using wildshape etc.

Read the feat point system though. Sad.

[Darrin]

That totally didn't need to be in blue, he actually directly said those things.

There's another whole level of absurdity when that same person is insisting that the overpowered stuff that smart players should be choosing are Manyshot and TWF.

Holy... Buh... Whu... I... MANYSHOT? Really?

Yeah, I think I'm on the same page as Ziegander.

[Raimun]

Wait, what?

Magic Missile is the best 1st level spell? I can think of off the top of my head several counter arguments and/or spells I rate higher than Magic Missile.

At first level even a crossbow is a better damage option, since most people have more than 2-4 crossbow bolts to fire per day... and then you can still cast other spells. If you can't beat a humble crossbow, there's not much to write home about.

At low levels, Color Spray or Sleep will end encounters against a whole enemy unit. Magic Missile will end encounters against a single lame goblin.

Grease will remain an useful option every level.

Cure Light Wounds is perhaps the most used spell ever and pretty much essential spell. Ask yourself this: would you rather adventure with a party that lacks MM or one that lacks CLW?

Ray of Enfeeblement is clearly the superior tactical option to MM. One hit with a MM doesn't even make the monsters angry but this spell will.

I'd rate Summon Monster I higher than Magic Missile after the first few levels. Expendable fanatical minions have many creative (and often times brutal) uses.

Shocking Grasp outperforms Magic Missile's damage in the right hands. Most often these hands belong to Magus and one of them wields a scimitar. It won't miss either since you can hold the charge.

Enlarge Person+the party Fighter/Barbarian? Fun times. Pretty much guaranteened to out damage one casting of MM. Can be used as minor battle field control... mostly in 10 ft wide corridors.

Magic Weapon? Most likely beats MM when you have to fight insubstantial foes at first level.

Comprehend Languages is useful whenever you see unfamiliar writing on the dungeon walls.

Mage Armor/Shield prepared after the 5th level? Why not.

Disguise Self and/or Charm Person can be real game changers at low levels.

True Strike sees use time and again as a corner stone in some one hit kill-stunt at higher levels.

And sure. You get more Missiles at higher levels but don't you kind of have something better to do with your standard actions at that point? At least even casting any of the spells I mentioned above.

I guess it's good that people who don't really understand the mechanics stop writing them. From what I've heard, he must have been better at writing fluff.

[Ziegander]

There's another whole level of absurdity when that same person is insisting that the overpowered stuff that smart players should be choosing are Manyshot and TWF.


I KNOW, RIGHT?

EDIT: Did you notice that not one spellcaster feat was ranked higher than 10 points and many of them were ranked lower? As in less powerful than Weapon Focus? Augment Summoning is cheaper than Weapon ****ing Focus.

[Perseus]

Have nothing to say really since i do not play Pathfinder, but i have a request. For research/hilarity purposes, does any one have links to the threads/articles where SKR or the aformentioned designers have written those gems?

I have read about the ivory tower (if its called that way), but never read the article itself, or the ones where wizard players are smarter than mundane-class players, druid playtester not using wildshape etc.

Read the feat point system though. Sad.

I would love a compendium of stuff from him...

So that when I get bored or a bit sad I can have so.ething to make me laugh.

[Raimun]

I KNOW, RIGHT?

EDIT: Did you notice that not one spellcaster feat was ranked higher than 10 points and many of them were ranked lower? As in less powerful than Weapon Focus? Augment Summoning is cheaper than Weapon ****ing Focus.

Yeah.

Which one is more likely to be seen in a game?

Summoning specialist without Augment Summoning.

Any kind of weapon specialist without Weapon Focus.

Edit: Though I have to agree with his call that Weapon Focus (or Skill Focus) is about two times better than Quicken Spell. Not really. Quicken is at least two times better than both of them combined.

[Big Fau]

Not really. Quicken is at least two times better than both of them combined.

Twenty time times better if you go by bonuses; Quicken can give a +20 to Weapon Focus' +1 (via True Strike).

[Perseus]

Twenty time times better if you go by bonuses; Quicken can give a +20 to Weapon Focus' +1 (via True Strike).

Bit weapon focus can be used 1000 times a day and quicken true strike cant!!!!

Wait do I need to make that blue or can y'all tell

[Firechanter]

Magic Missile is the best 1st level spell? I can think of off the top of my head several counter arguments and/or spells I rate higher than Magic Missile.


That might be be because, ya know, Magic Missile is almost the _worst_ level 1 spell.

[Karnith]

EDIT: Did you notice that not one spellcaster feat was ranked higher than 10 points and many of them were ranked lower? As in less powerful than Weapon Focus? Augment Summoning is cheaper than Weapon ****ing Focus.
My favorite example: Toughness is rated at a 6. A 5 HP version of Toughness is rated at a 10 (i.e. the ideal balance point for a feat). Natural Spell, though? It's a 5.

Using that feat point system, you could take Natural Spell and, I dunno, Quicken Spell or something, for the same cost as taking a 5 HP Toughness.

[12owlbears]

I like that greater fortitude, lighting reflexes, and iron will are supposedly equivalent to two metamagic feats

[Perseus]

That might be be because, ya know, Magic Missile is almost the _worst_ level 1 spell.

You know what is the scariest and saddest thing about all this.

The way he views magic missile, someone who worked in the industry for years, is the same way that newb sees magic missile.

It really tells you a lot...

[Firechanter]

Yeah, that Feat Point System thing is truly hilarious, or actually, it would be if it weren't so sad that the guy who [I assume] honestly believes that Quicken Spell and Natural Spell _combined_ are not worth more than, say, Skill Focus Craft:Basketweaving has had such a great influence on the mechanics and balance of the game for years and years.
Note btw that this article was published after the release of 3.5, so it's not like a few years hadn't passed since the introduction of the D20 engine.

Sure, the article is about 10 years old, but he never amended or commented it later, so we can only assume he is still of roughly the same opinion. I mean, if I had ever written something and then learned better, and didn't want to take the article down altogether, I'd at least edit in a preface like "Look at the sort of silly nonsense we actually believed when the Third was young".

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think far too much damage has already been done for it to matter much. Maybe it'll help PF 2E suck less.

It will be interesting to see what changes, especially with FAQ rulings. While I definitely loathe SKR and think he's wrong 99% of the time....paizo is kind of an echo chamber. I suspect that in many cases when he trotted out to make controversial/horrible defenses of PF rulings, he was serving as Jason Bulmahn's personal flak shield (ie, doing the dirty work for him; it just happened SKR agreed with him as well).

[Silva Stormrage]

That might be be because, ya know, Magic Missile is almost the _worst_ level 1 spell.

Hey now thats not true. There are several that are much worse. Curse Water for example.

Now of course its no where near the BEST spell but its decidedly "meh" rather than terrible. :smalltongue:

[NightbringerGGZ]

Eh, it isn't fair to expect him to go back and update old articles. For one thing, he probably just doesn't care all that much about the old article. I ran a Shadow Priest blog for a few years but I'm not exactly going back to update talent critiques or combat strategies on an article I wrote 4 years ago.

I do think a lot of SKRs antagonism stems from people being rude to him upfront. I found him perfectly easy to communicate with on subjects other than game rules. He's just stuck in a vision of D&D from 20 years ago while most gamers want a system that incorporates modern game design concepts. That leads to a lot of arguments.

[Manly Man]

And there was much rejoicing. (http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/1465429/much-rejoicing-o.gif)

In all seriousness though, there isn't much I can say about him that wouldn't come off as bashing, so after that little GIFt, I think I'll be done here.

[Artillery]

Ah yes, the Ninja/Monk drug dealer. It's really a shame that there aren't that many fun TO builds in pathfinder.

That sounds like a pretty scary splash weapon, to be honest.

Does Pathfinder have any decent poisons? I have Ectoplasmic Creation aka Psionic Minor Creation on my not quite king of smack build. Only has an effective Colossal size on the claws, but 4 claw attacks on a full attack at level 9 isn't bad.

[Captnq]

SKR? Never heard of him.

[Ramza00]

A question which designers/rule book/supplements books authors do you forum readers actually like if everybody hates skip, sean, cooke, etc.

[Venger]

A question which designers/rule book/supplements books authors do you forum readers actually like if everybody hates skip, sean, cooke, etc.

Everybody likes Bruce Cordell, the guy behind 3.x psionics in addition to sandstorm, hyperconscious, and other goodies.

[NightbringerGGZ]

A question which designers/rule book/supplements books authors do you forum readers actually like if everybody hates skip, sean, cooke, etc.

Hail Gygax

Edit: Stephen Radney-MacFarland seems like a pretty good guy and has demonstrated good design skills based on my experiences in Paizo's last play test. I try not to judge designers as people until I've had a chance to interact with them. SKR was fairly antagonistic, but so were most of the people interacting with him. Personally, it seems like every system/feature of Paizo that have huge problems were SKRs pet projects.

[Khatoblepas]

Hey now thats not true. There are several that are much worse. Curse Water for example.

Hey, sometimes you really need to destroy angels and deathless. It's like the Decanter of Endless Holy Water in reverse! Turn the firehose on the good guys!

As for SKR...

Though he is gone, SKR's crowning achievement (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/prestige/serpentarcher.html)* will not be missed.

*Goofy as it is, if it was like, a single feat instead of a 7 level prestige class, I'd say it had potential. Firing a Venomfire'd snake at a dude would be pretty boss, especially since the damage from Venomfire procs when the venom is used, not on a bite attack. I dare say it would be a viable, if dumb, archer build.

[DR27]

A question which designers/rule book/supplements books authors do you forum readers actually like if everybody hates skip, sean, cooke, etc.Dunno, who wrote Tome of Battle? I like that guy's style. Same for whoever wrote up the Duskblade and Beguiler.

[StreamOfTheSky]

A question which designers/rule book/supplements books authors do you forum readers actually like if everybody hates skip, sean, cooke, etc.

I don't think most people hate Monte... at least, not 3E/PF players. 4E players seem to... When Monte joined WotC for 5E, it gave me a brief glint of hope that it might actually turn out alright. Then he left. I mean, I'd never expect a balanced game out of Monte, but at least he's pretty up front about loving casters forever and talked about ivory tower game design, timmy cards, etc... As long as the martials have something to do and the game is well written, whatever.
Likewise, I suspect all of the "hate" for Skip is from his advice columns where he used a lot of his own houserules (which were almost always terrible) in the advice, and that rubbed people the wrong way. When it comes to actually writing books? Eh.

It's hard to think of designers I like. I only really remember the names of ones I dislike. Tweet never did anything horrible, iirc...

[ngilop]

Rich Baker did ToB. and liek the Monte cook version in arcana unearthed. It just didn't go far enough for me.

That and the guy couldn;t have just said in a pre-word " yeah we messed up with some of the classes in the PHB, we completely undervalued spells against other class abilities so here is the Fighter, Paladin, and Rogue: REDUX"

Its the same reason why I am not going to be purchasing the dreamscarred press's new verion of the TOB, Path of War. Instead of just creating a better fighter, rogue, paland and ranger.. they instead just make completely new classes that render those one completely moot ( though Paizo did that to the paladin with the inquisitor)

I made the mistake of wasting money on teh ToB for basically giving me the middle finger and sayin 'screw you' becuase I wanted a better fighter, rogue and other and they siad 'no here are new classes to make those ones completely pointless YAAY you are dumb so buy this now idioyt'

[Firechanter]

Dunno, who wrote Tome of Battle? I like that guy's style.

Richard Baker, Matthew Sernett, Frank Brunner.

Can't say any of these names rang a bell otherwise. Also, ToB has a bunch of errors / dysfunctions, which never were officially errataed. But that notwithstanding, it's awesome and my single favourite splat because it does so many things _right_.

[Snowbluff]

Rich Baker did ToB. and liek the Monte cook version in arcana unearthed. It just didn't go far enough for me.

That and the guy couldn;t have just said in a pre-word " yeah we messed up with some of the classes in the PHB, we completely undervalued spells against other class abilities so here is the Fighter, Paladin, and Rogue: REDUX"

Its the same reason why I am not going to be purchasing the dreamscarred press's new verion of the TOB, Path of War. Instead of just creating a better fighter, rogue, paland and ranger.. they instead just make completely new classes that render those one completely moot ( though Paizo did that to the paladin with the inquisitor)

I made the mistake of wasting money on teh ToB for basically giving me the middle finger and sayin 'screw you' becuase I wanted a better fighter, rogue and other and they siad 'no here are new classes to make those ones completely pointless YAAY you are dumb so buy this now idioyt'

3 things:
1) Is your screen name a typo? :smalltongue:

2) Rogue/etc were already useless.

3) Warblade is free. (https://www.google.com/search?q=dnd+3.5+warblade&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-aurora&channel=sb)

[Firechanter]

I made the mistake of wasting money on teh ToB

Iono, even if you hate it, if you still have it you should be able to make a pretty penny off it nowadays. :p

[Deophaun]

Its the same reason why I am not going to be purchasing the dreamscarred press's new verion of the TOB, Path of War. Instead of just creating a better fighter, rogue, paland and ranger.. they instead just make completely new classes that render those one completely moot ( though Paizo did that to the paladin with the inquisitor)
Step 1)Get a crayon
Step 2)Get your copy of ToB
Step 3)Go through your ToB and, using the crayon, cross out all mentions of "Warblade" and replace with "Fighter"
Step 4)Repeat Step 3, except with "Swordsage" and "Rogue."
Step 5)Repeat Step 3 again, except with "Crusader" and "Paladin."

There. Now your complaints re: ToB have been fixed. Go forth and have fun.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Step 1)Get a crayon
Step 2)Get your copy of ToB
Step 3)Go through your ToB and, using the crayon, cross out all mentions of "Warblade" and replace with "Fighter"
Step 4)Repeat Step 3, except with "Swordsage" and "Rogue."
Step 5)Repeat Step 3 again, except with "Crusader" and "Paladin."

There. Now your complaints re: ToB have been fixed. Go forth and have fun.

Factotum is rogue. Swordsage is monk.

[Ziegander]

A question which designers/rule book/supplements books authors do you forum readers actually like if everybody hates skip, sean, cooke, etc.

Rich Baker, Keith Baker, James Wyatt, David Noonan, and Rich Berlew, to name a few. Mike Mearls I could take or leave. I was never a big fan of any of his third-party material and since being hired on to WotC I don't think he's produced anything to excite me.

[Dienekes]

Factotum is rogue. Swordsage is monk.

Swordsage is swordsage. You can use it to be very roguish, strangely sorcerery, or a cool monk (particularly with unarmed variant).

[The Glyphstone]

Hey, sometimes you really need to destroy angels and deathless. It's like the Decanter of Endless Holy Water in reverse! Turn the firehose on the good guys!

As for SKR...

Though he is gone, SKR's crowning achievement (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/prestige/serpentarcher.html)* will not be missed.

*Goofy as it is, if it was like, a single feat instead of a 7 level prestige class, I'd say it had potential. Firing a Venomfire'd snake at a dude would be pretty boss, especially since the damage from Venomfire procs when the venom is used, not on a bite attack. I dare say it would be a viable, if dumb, archer build.

This is extra ironic juxtaposed against his linked rage-hate for crossbows. Or maybe not, because all the class features only work for bows despite crossbow use being able to qualify for the class.

[Keneth]

SKR made a lot of good stuff and a lot of bad stuff. Whether him leaving the team is a good thing remains to be seen.

At this point I've pretty much stopped caring about the poor design choices paizo makes. If I don't like something, I just houserule it.

[DR27]

ToB has a bunch of errors / dysfunctions, which never were officially errataed. But that notwithstanding, it's awesome and my single favourite splat because it does so many things _right_.I tend not to blame designers for editing mistakes/time crunch at the end of 3.5. I mean, Tome of Magic could have been pretty good, but obviously was done in an unacceptable timeframe.


At this point I've pretty much stopped caring about the poor design choices paizo makes. If I don't like something, I just houserule it.You kind have to give WotC credit for that bit at least - if I'm not mistaken, the only reason that all their stuff is free online is because of the OGL. Otherwise, the whole "just house rule it" mantra is incompatible with me paying for something. The whole reason I'm paying the designer is so that I don't have to make it myself.

[Beowulf DW]

Until proven otherwise, I'm just going to assume that the complaints from the playtest were finally tallied, and this was Paizo's way of letting him leave with some dignity.

While I would never wish harm on SKR, he needs to be kept away from all-encompassing games like Pathfinder and D&D, or kept on a leash just out of reach from the mechanics. Maybe he'll find a place with a game only about casters. He'd probably be very happy with that. In a game that's suppose to handle multiple kinds of character concepts, he just ends up railing against the ones he doesn't like.

[Yawgmoth]

SKR made a lot of good stuff [citation needed]

I just houserule it. That doesn't excuse doing an actively terrible job of his job, which is to provide useful, functional material for the games he wrote for that maintains some semblance of balance (e.g. not making one class ultimately and objectively better at everything another class is supposed to do).

[Covent]

Well while trying to be nice, I have held my tongue when SKR appears in Paizo forums, and I do wish him well.

However after the vow and waterballon debacle, I have to admit my first feeling when reading this news was very similar to This (http://youtu.be/oTB46FJOF5w).

I personally feel that hopefully designers like Stephen Radney-MacFarland will have more effect or perhaps more visible effect, as while I do not agree with all of his views/decisions he seems to be very willing to discuss things rationally and was very impressive in the most recent playtest.

Tl;DR: Good Luck SKR, Wish you well, however I personally am not terribly sad you are going.

[Seerow]

Until proven otherwise, I'm just going to assume that the complaints from the playtest were finally tallied, and this was Paizo's way of letting him leave with some dignity.

While I would never wish harm on SKR, he needs to be kept away from all-encompassing games like Pathfinder and D&D, or kept on a leash just out of reach from the mechanics. Maybe he'll find a place with a game only about casters. He'd probably be very happy with that. In a game that's suppose to handle multiple kinds of character concepts, he just ends up railing against the ones he doesn't like.

The worst part is, he wrote a blog post some time back about how much he hates writing crunch books, and blaming players not buying the all-fluff books for him being forced to write crunch.

Seriously. It was one of the most ludicrous whiny rants I've ever read.

[Beowulf DW]

The worst part is, he wrote a blog post some time back about how much he hates writing crunch books, and blaming players not buying the all-fluff books for him being forced to write crunch.

Seriously. It was one of the most ludicrous whiny rants I've ever read.

Wow, really? Can you link to it, or was it too long ago?

[avr]

If the guy wants to write fluff but was in a role where he had to write crunch, it's good for everyone that he left.

Where I could positively identify the rules he'd written I wasn't impressed, from D&D 3.0 Ghostwalk to the Brawler in PF's Advanced Class Guide. If he wants to write a novel I'm happy to judge that entirely separately.

[Deophaun]

If the guy wants to write fluff but was in a role where he had to write crunch, it's good for everyone that he left.
That role being "RPG designer" instead of "novelist."

[Seerow]

Wow, really? Can you link to it, or was it too long ago?

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/forgottenrumsstory.html

Here you go.


Edit: The worst part is, his fluff isn't much better than his mechanics. When I was first introduced to this article, I was given a few exerpts from the book it references (unfortunately I can't remember where this was), and they were all very uninspired. I was not surprised that the book sold poorly enough that the 'evil bean counters' told him to stop writing fluff.

[DR27]

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/forgottenrumsstory.html

Here you go.


Edit: The worst part is, his fluff isn't much better than his mechanics. When I was first introduced to this article, I was given a few exerpts from the book it references (unfortunately I can't remember where this was), and they were all very uninspired. I was not surprised that the book sold poorly enough that the 'evil bean counters' told him to stop writing fluff.Wow. Just wow. I hope he never takes down his blog, it's pure comedy.

[The Glyphstone]

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/forgottenrumsstory.html

Here you go.


Edit: The worst part is, his fluff isn't much better than his mechanics. When I was first introduced to this article, I was given a few exerpts from the book it references (unfortunately I can't remember where this was), and they were all very uninspired. I was not surprised that the book sold poorly enough that the 'evil bean counters' told him to stop writing fluff.

That is the most hilarious, beautiful passive-aggressive allegory I have ever witnessed. I am in awe.

[georgie_leech]

That is the most hilarious, beautiful passive-aggressive allegory I have ever witnessed. I am in awe.

I don't know, it's between that and the Planet Express Crew working for the Box Corporation with the malfunctioning sign that had their executives ground into paste for incompetence.

[BlackDragonKing]

That is the most hilarious, beautiful passive-aggressive allegory I have ever witnessed. I am in awe.

His fluff's nothing special, his crunch is terrible, and his attitude is abysmal, but SKR has passive-aggressive down to an art form. :smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

I don't know, it's between that and the Planet Express Crew working for the Box Corporation with the malfunctioning sign that had their executives ground into paste for incompetence.

But that is fictional. This happened in real life. No contest.

[12owlbears]

Hey, sometimes you really need to destroy angels and deathless. It's like the Decanter of Endless Holy Water in reverse! Turn the firehose on the good guys!

As for SKR...

Though he is gone, SKR's crowning achievement (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/prestige/serpentarcher.html)* will not be missed.

*Goofy as it is, if it was like, a single feat instead of a 7 level prestige class, I'd say it had potential. Firing a Venomfire'd snake at a dude would be pretty boss, especially since the damage from Venomfire procs when the venom is used, not on a bite attack. I dare say it would be a viable, if dumb, archer build.

Wow I have to say I have trouble thinking of a more ridiculous image than some one shooting a snake out of a crossbow. Was this meant as a joke?

[Snowbluff]

Wow I have to say I have trouble thinking of a more ridiculous image than some one shooting a snake out of a crossbow. Was this meant as a joke?

I'd totally shoot snakes at people. That sounds like fun. It should be a feat, though. :smalltongue:

[12owlbears]

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/forgottenrumsstory.html


Did SKR write the lords of madness? I kind of liked that book, but that's more because aberrations are awesome and less to do with how well the book was written.


I'd totally shoot snakes at people. That sounds like fun. It should be a feat, though. :smalltongue:

I agree but still it's kind of hard to visualize without snickering

[Reverent-One]

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/forgottenrumsstory.html

Here you go.


Edit: The worst part is, his fluff isn't much better than his mechanics. When I was first introduced to this article, I was given a few exerpts from the book it references (unfortunately I can't remember where this was), and they were all very uninspired. I was not surprised that the book sold poorly enough that the 'evil bean counters' told him to stop writing fluff.

Huh, I'm not sure how you took liking writing some less "crunchy" in addition to crunchy ones (notably for a series intended to be more fluff heavy) and got to "hates writing crunch". At no point do the "elves" wish they never had to write the "crunchy" books, and their main objection to making the FR books less fluffy is that's part of those books' appeal for the fanbase. Also, he's not even credited as a writer for The Silver Marches (though he did a Web enhancement with spells and such for it), so not only would that make excerpts from it a poor way to judge his fluff work, but it seems like he's writing this for sake of other "elves", not just himself.

[Deophaun]

Only those that have suffered the bite of the snake can truly understand its potency.
And nothing about the PrC actually deals with poison except, you know, not accidentally poisoning yourself. Great fluff/crunch there, SKR!

[Nihilarian]

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/forgottenrumsstory.html

Here you go.


Edit: The worst part is, his fluff isn't much better than his mechanics. When I was first introduced to this article, I was given a few exerpts from the book it references (unfortunately I can't remember where this was), and they were all very uninspired. I was not surprised that the book sold poorly enough that the 'evil bean counters' told him to stop writing fluff.And then The Sliver Munches sold poorly and proved once and for all that fans wanted the crunchy. With this proof, the bean-counters reached a compromise and had the elves write books that were both fluffy and crunchy, to the delight of all except one sour, passive-aggressive elf. But the sour elf had a plan. He would bide his time churning out inferior products until he wormed his way into the trust of the bean-counters. Finally he was put in charge, and he began to poison the products he didn't like so that others couldn't enjoy them either...

And after a long and terrible reign, he got bored and left, the end.

I love a good happy ending.

[Beowulf DW]

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/forgottenrumsstory.html

Here you go.


Edit: The worst part is, his fluff isn't much better than his mechanics. When I was first introduced to this article, I was given a few exerpts from the book it references (unfortunately I can't remember where this was), and they were all very uninspired. I was not surprised that the book sold poorly enough that the 'evil bean counters' told him to stop writing fluff.

Thank you. And wow.

[Seerow]

Huh, I'm not sure how you took liking writing some less "crunchy" in addition to crunchy ones (notably for a series intended to be more fluff heavy) and got to "hates writing crunch". At no point do the "elves" wish they never had to write the "crunchy" books, and their main objection to making the FR books less fluffy is that's part of those books' appeal for the fanbase. Also, he's not even credited as a writer for The Silver Marches (though he did a Web enhancement with spells and such for it), so not only would that make excerpts from it a poor way to judge his fluff work, but it seems like he's writing this for sake of other "elves", not just himself.

Even if he wasn't a writer on that book, as others in the thread have noted the attitude behind the article alone is enough to be worthy of mockery. Also, regardless of who wrote it, Silver Marches was not a good fluff book, and it's completely unsurprising that it sold poorly. If that is what the writers considered to be a good fluff book, those in charge were totally right to get those writers to change direction and do something else.

[Nihilarian]

The only thing I know about the Silver Marches is that it has what's probably the best archery PrC in 3.X.

This is not saying much.

[Alent]

And then The Sliver Munches sold poorly and proved once and for all that fans wanted the crunchy. With this proof, the bean-counters reached a compromise and had the elves write books that were both fluffy and crunchy, to the delight of all except one sour, passive-aggressive elf. But the sour elf had a plan. He would bide his time churning out inferior products until he wormed his way into the trust of the bean-counters. Finally he was put in charge, and he began to poison the products he didn't like so that others couldn't enjoy them either...

And after a long and terrible reign, he got bored and left, the end.

I love a good happy ending.

I wasn't around back then, I get Donut core are the core rulebooks, Forgotten Rums and Fae Rum are glaringly obvious. Sliver Munches tho?

[Nihilarian]

I wasn't around back then, I get Donut core are the core rulebooks, Forgotten Rums and Fae Rum are glaringly obvious. Sliver Munches tho?Silver Marches, unless I miss my guess.

[Venger]

Did SKR write the lords of madness? I kind of liked that book, but that's more because aberrations are awesome and less to do with how well the book was written.



I agree but still it's kind of hard to visualize without snickering

no he did not. he's referring to "lords of darkness" which, like others he worked on, was full of uninteresting fluff that bloated the campaign setting and left DMs and players alike very little "room" in the world for their characters to insert themselves.

[Reverent-One]

Even if he wasn't a writer on that book, as others in the thread have noted the attitude behind the article alone is enough to be worthy of mockery.

Because corporate meddling to seek the lowest common denominator is always good, right? :smalltongue: Or is it only when it's someone we don't like complaining about it?


Also, regardless of who wrote it, Silver Marches was not a good fluff book, and it's completely unsurprising that it sold poorly. If that is what the writers considered to be a good fluff book, those in charge were totally right to get those writers to change direction and do something else.

*Shrugs* I haven't read it, but some quick googling easily finds those who like it. And since fluff heavy books selling less than crunch heavy books is a pretty commonly accepted fact of RPG sales (like Core books selling more than non-core books), it's doubtful the quality of the book was really the key factor. It's just how these things work.

[Trunamer]

...I honestly thought that SKR was the Paizo illustrator dude until just now. Maybe with him gone, we'll get a more playable PF 2.0.


I'd totally shoot snakes at people. That sounds like fun. It should be a feat, though. :smalltongue:
I remember a sorcerer in one of the Conan movies firing a snake from his bow, and killing C's girlfriend at the time. Not that Conan is a shining example of fine creativity...but maybe it explains where SKR got the idea from.

[Zombulian]

...I honestly thought that SKR was the Paizo illustrator dude until just now. Maybe with him gone, we'll get a more playable PF 2.0.


I remember a sorcerer in one of the Conan movies firing a snake from his bow, and killing C's girlfriend at the time. Not that Conan is a shining example of fine creativity...but maybe it explains where SKR got the idea from.

Mm you're thinkin of Wayne Reynolds.

[BlackDragonKing]

Because corporate meddling to seek the lowest common denominator is always good, right? :smalltongue: Or is it only when it's someone we don't like complaining about it?

An alleged professional taking that sort of passive-aggressive tone rather than actually discussing his feelings on the matter directly reflects very poorly on the alleged professional in question, don't you think?

Let it never be said SKR said "I disagree with this thing" if there was a chance for him to try and be snidely condescending instead.

[ngilop]

I am just going to say that a man ( or woman) should be able to say wha they want on their own personal blog.

And while I can say that SKR never really could take any criticism or anybody having a difference of opinion ( which it seems like EVERY member of paizo is alike in that manner)

at least SKR never called me stupid for not playing a pure caster.

[Reverent-One]

An alleged professional taking that sort of passive-aggressive tone rather than actually discussing his feelings on the matter directly reflects very poorly on the alleged professional in question, don't you think?

I don't have a problem with someone making their point in a more entertaining way. Sure, he could have just said "Hey guys, fluff-heavy FR books are going to the wayside unless this one sells well", but that's a far more boring blog post.

[Nihilarian]

I am just going to say that a man ( or woman) should be able to say wha they want on their own personal blog.

And while I can say that SKR never really could take any criticism or anybody having a difference of opinion ( which it seems like EVERY member of paizo is alike in that manner)

at least SKR never called me stupid for not playing a pure caster.Instead, he just nerfed noncasters over and over again.

I don't know who called you stupid. A lot of us want to play competent noncasters. SKR made it harder every time he sat down at his computer.

[Squark]

I am just going to say that a man ( or woman) should be able to say wha they want on their own personal blog.

And while I can say that SKR never really could take any criticism or anybody having a difference of opinion ( which it seems like EVERY member of paizo is alike in that manner)

at least SKR never called me stupid for not playing a pure caster.


Have nothing to say really since i do not play Pathfinder, but i have a request. For research/hilarity purposes, does any one have links to the threads/articles where SKR or the aformentioned designers have written those gems?

I have read about the ivory tower (if its called that way), but never read the article itself, or the ones where wizard players are smarter than mundane-class players, druid playtester not using wildshape etc.

Read the feat point system though. Sad.

Thirdhand, but there you go.

[The Glyphstone]

Wow I have to say I have trouble thinking of a more ridiculous image than some one shooting a snake out of a crossbow. Was this meant as a joke?

Well, it gives the sizes of snake that various Hand Crossbows can fire, right after specifying that the ability only functions with Light or Heavy Crossbows.

[TuggyNE]

I am just going to say that a man ( or woman) should be able to say wha they want on their own personal blog.

Yes and no. Sure, they should have the freedom to say what they wish. But if it's stupid or horrifying or painful or otherwise nasty, then anyone who interacts with them on a personal or professional level should have the freedom to say "do not want!" and respond appropriately.

In this case, the story was agonizing in its broad allegorization and astonishingly thin similes. Also, rather unprofessionally insulting.

[Quorothorn]

It actually gets on my nerves this guy was paid to be like this, for years.

Also...people care about 'fluff' in tabletop RPG books? Really? With a decent number of exceptions, there's a reason people writing fluff sections are writing their fiction in such books and not novels: it's because their writing isn't good enough. I don't think I've read anything that wasn't rules-text in a tabletop book in a year or more. Hey, if one happens to enjoy them, more power to you, but at this point I'm not going to bother. (Admittedly the final nail in that coffin for me was much more nWoD than D&D, heh.)


A question which designers/rule book/supplements books authors do you forum readers actually like if everybody hates skip, sean, cooke, etc.

Given 'where' we are, Rich Burlew is a pretty safe guess, as is Keith Baker.


Because corporate meddling to seek the lowest common denominator is always good, right? :smalltongue: Or is it only when it's someone we don't like complaining about it?

It's when a professional (so-called) is whinging up a storm and using the most thinly-veiled excuse for an 'analogy' ever, I suspect.

But yes, also when someone 'we don't like' is doing said whinging, true that.


Mm you're thinkin of Wayne Reynolds.

The Pathfinder Iconics' outfits/design make no sense at all and are terrible, incidentally. (But in fairness I doubt they're all that indicative of that artists' skill.)

[georgie_leech]

Yes and no. Sure, they should have the freedom to say what they wish. But if it's stupid or horrifying or painful or otherwise nasty, then anyone who interacts with them on a personal or professional level should have the freedom to say "do not want!" and respond appropriately.

In this case, the story was agonizing in its broad allegorization and astonishingly thin similes. Also, rather unprofessionally insulting.

I dunno, I thought the characterization of his works of fluff as instructions on how to work with a substance known for causing angry outbursts and a vector for poor decisions was pretty spot on. :smalltongue:

[Drachasor]

My personal guess is that PF design won't change that much. There have been indications that SKR's design philosophy was generally agreed with by PF designers.

However, maybe the PF forums will be a more healthy environment now. SKR tended to respond to people disagreeing with him by being insulting and dismissive, refusing to engage in an intellectual debate. I'm sure there were people on the other side that weren't blameless, but SKR could have promoted an environment where healthy debate was encouraged. Instead his behavior encouraged divisiveness. Indeed, he would favorite and encourage posts that were insulting and mean towards those he disagreed with (posts that on this forum would result in warnings or bans). Generally I think he is one of the reasons that the PF forums are so polarized.*

*Though PF being designed to appeal to the more reactionary gamers as a response to 4E is likely a part of it too. That said, you shouldn't encourage that sort of thing.

[Ziegander]

Jason Buhlman isn't any better.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Jason Buhlman isn't any better.

Jason Buhlman is basically SKR with a higher charisma score.

[eggynack]

Jason Buhlman isn't any better.
Really? I don't think I've seen him associated with much that I dislike, and from what little I've seen of his posting style, it seems significantly less confrontational than that of SKR. I mean, he made factotums, dungeoncrasher, and I think he made summoners. All of those things get my seal of approval, for whatever that's worth.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Really? I don't think I've seen him associated with much that I dislike, and from what little I've seen of his posting style, it seems significantly less confrontational than that of SKR. I mean, he made factotums, dungeoncrasher, and I think he made summoners. All of those things get my seal of approval, for whatever that's worth.

Supposedly he's the one behind the myriad Rogue nerfs. According to the legends, he got upset about sample flask rogue builds in the PF playtest and basically stated that if a rogue's doing something besides tumbling into flanking for a dagger sneak attack, he's being cheesy. And so splash weapons ceased to count as weapons (read Quickdraw and go "WTF?!" with me) and explicitly couldn't be sneak attacked with, blinking no longer granted SA, etc.... until the ranged rogue was dead.

Of course, then paizo also nerfed tumbling because I guess that's also cheesy or something. And then a few years after the core book, they unleashed the Flanking Foil feat upon the world and revealed that they were trolling this whole time and didn't actually think rogue should have *any* role in combat. :smallmad:

EDIT: He also was likely the designer back during the playtest that said the Paladin utterly sucking was an intended design feature (the initial PF Paladin was actually worse than the 3E one). All I know about that is, everyone revolted over it, and the new, actually decent PF Paladin was born.

[Ziegander]

Really? I don't think I've seen him associated with much that I dislike, and from what little I've seen of his posting style, it seems significantly less confrontational than that of SKR. I mean, he made factotums, dungeoncrasher, and I think he made summoners. All of those things get my seal of approval, for whatever that's worth.

Do you know that he wrote the Factotum and Dungeoncrasher? He's listed as an author on the cover, but I don't know which parts of the book he wrote and which parts he didn't. Rich Burlew, a designer whose material and credentials I trust much more considerably, is also on the cover.


SKR tended to respond to people disagreeing with him by being insulting and dismissive, refusing to engage in an intellectual debate.

This is what I meant Buhlman isn't any better at. Which is slightly inaccurate. He isn't quite as toxic or outright mean-spirited, but he still has a track record of being dismissive of criticism and refusing to engage in intellectual debates. He's actually the reason I hadn't given Pathfinder a chance until just recently. Back when he was the sole designer on the project I threw my hands in the air and dismissed Pathfinder entirely, because anytime I tried to talk to him about the direction the game was going in he didn't want to hear any of it. And now all of his high talk of backwards compatibility is pretty much bull****, because Pathfinder ended up being a lot more different than D&D 3.5 than he was making it out to be.

Basically, a lot of people, back when Pathfinder was still Alpha/Beta testing, myself included, were encouraging Paizo to go a little less backwards compatible in order to make improvements to the game engine and to classes and playstyles, etc. Those people were fairly vehemently dismissed by Jason Buhlman as not having any place in his perfectly constructed world. Which I find ****ty since the game is not very backwards compatible anyway and with the changes they've decided to make, they could've done a lot more to improve inter-class balance and things like that, but they wouldn't. Because Jason Buhlman.

[eggynack]

Supposedly he's the one behind the myriad Rogue nerfs. According to the legends, he got upset about sample flask rogue builds in the PF playtest and basically stated that if a rogue's doing something besides tumbling into flanking for a dagger sneak attack, he's being cheesy. And so splash weapons ceased to count as weapons (read Quickdraw and go "WTF?!" with me) and explicitly couldn't be sneak attacked with, blinking no longer granted SA, etc.... until the ranged rogue was dead.
That does sound pretty stupid. Still, I don't think anything can stand up to the might of the feat point system. It was covered earlier in this thread, but man, that is just one of the stupidest things I've ever seen. Seriously, he gave leadership an 8. And then he used that weird notation to make a claim that I don't even understand. I think he was pointing out positive things, because leadership grants extra attacks, has no use limitation, and lacks a power cap, but then there's no justification listed for its low score. Just a big ol' 8, sitting on the screen. Actually, it looks like those things I listed were supposed to be the inverse of what I said, so I don't even know anymore. I just don't know.

Edit:
Do you know that he wrote the Factotum and Dungeoncrasher? He's listed as an author on the cover, but I don't know which parts of the book he wrote and which parts he didn't. Rich Burlew, a designer whose material and credentials I trust much more considerably, is also on the cover.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I remember finding a quote by Rich Burlew about this a bit ago. I'ma check the index for it.

Double edit: Found it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10722208&postcount=21).

[Drachasor]

This is what I meant Buhlman isn't any better at. Which is slightly inaccurate. He isn't quite as toxic or outright mean-spirited, but he still has a track record of being dismissive of criticism and refusing to engage in intellectual debates. He's actually the reason I hadn't given Pathfinder a chance until just recently. Back when he was the sole designer on the project I threw my hands in the air and dismissed Pathfinder entirely, because anytime I tried to talk to him about the direction the game was going in he didn't want to hear any of it. And now all of his high talk of backwards compatibility is pretty much bull****, because Pathfinder ended up being a lot more different than D&D 3.5 than he was making it out to be.

Basically, a lot of people, back when Pathfinder was still Alpha/Beta testing, myself included, were encouraging Paizo to go a little less backwards compatible in order to make improvements to the game engine and to classes and playstyles, etc. Those people were fairly vehemently dismissed by Jason Buhlman as not having any place in his perfectly constructed world. Which I find ****ty since the game is not very backwards compatible anyway and with the changes they've decided to make, they could've done a lot more to improve inter-class balance and things like that, but they wouldn't. Because Jason Buhlman.

Buhlman can be dismissive, but he's a heck of a lot more polite about it. In my experience that makes a pretty big difference in how forum communities work. It is definitely preferable to dismissive and full of vitriol.

I agree that I don't care for them doing "playtests" and then they are dismissive about feedback on mechanics. Instead they just seem to want you to talk about your feelings or something. Buhlman was certainly part of that and a lot of similar stuff.

But yeah, Buhlman is one of the reasons I don't expect the actual design in PF to change. Especially after the advanced class playtesting -- that seemed to mostly cement the core tier system. I found the Raging Berserker (or whatever the Barbarian-Sorc hybrid is called) the oddest one there. His flavor text specifically talked about his destructive and rageful magic, but all the people who thought the mechanics should back that up were shot down. We weren't even asking for much, we just wanted his 4 levels of casting to have boosts so blasting with it made sense (since that was the flavor).


Edit:
Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I remember finding a quote by Rich Burlew about this a bit ago. I'ma check the index for it.

Double edit: Found it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10722208&postcount=21).

I kind of get the feeling that the good stuff (and the bad to an extent) Jason makes is more accidental than anything else. In the sense that he doesn't seem to understand game balance very well (and doesn't want to talk about it either).

Imho, 4E did something right by actually spelling out expected damage for abilities at various levels. 3.5 and 4E could have used something like that -- a sound baseline to compare and contrast things to.

[StreamOfTheSky]

That does sound pretty stupid. Still, I don't think anything can stand up to the might of the feat point system.

Well, yeah. It's nearly impossible to perfectly match that level of pants-on-head stupid. But Buhlman is similar to SKR in his nerfing of martials and buffing of casters, as evidenced by him actually being the chief architect of PF. He just has more social skills than SKR, or (as I suspect) had him take the heat for everything that he himself also supported. JB is often notably absent from the REALLY angry threads, like when they decided flurrying with unarmed strikes alone was overpowered and tried to claim it was never legal in the first place.

[Drachasor]

Well, yeah. It's nearly impossible to perfectly match that level of pants-on-head stupid. But Buhlman is similar to SKR in his nerfing of martials and buffing of casters, as evidenced by him actually being the chief architect of PF. He just has more social skills than SKR, or (as I suspect) had him take the heat for everything that he himself also supported. JB is often notably absent from the REALLY angry threads, like when they decided flurrying with unarmed strikes alone was overpowered and tried to claim it was never legal in the first place.

I think he got involved in my "discussion" with SKR on the PF Paladin's Smite Evil ability. I was arguing that the rules were unclear on how it interacted with incorporeals. The ability itself describes your attacks as "Smite Evil attacks" and so I said there was a really good argument that your attacks were supernatural in nature when under its effects. Well, I also pointed out that since you target SE then there's a 50% chance it doesn't work by RAW. They disagreed with me on all points in the usual "ignore the text" way that PF devs sometimes do.

SKR was more involved and both were dismissive -- even though I was just saying if that's not what they wanted then, imho, they should clarify it in errata. Naturally SKR was a lot more rude about the whole thing.

[Ziegander]

I think he got involved in my "discussion" with SKR on the PF Paladin's Smite Evil ability. I was arguing that the rules were unclear on how it interacted with incorporeals. The ability itself describes your attacks as "Smite Evil attacks" and so I said there was a really good argument that your attacks were supernatural in nature when under its effects. Well, I also pointed out that since you target SE then there's a 50% chance it doesn't work by RAW. They disagreed with me on all points in the usual "ignore the text" way that PF devs sometimes do.

SKR was more involved and both were dismissive -- even though I was just saying if that's not what they wanted then, imho, they should clarify it in errata. Naturally SKR was a lot more rude about the whole thing.

Anyone got a link?

[Squirrel_Dude]

This is what I meant Buhlman isn't any better at. Which is slightly inaccurate. He isn't quite as toxic or outright mean-spirited, but he still has a track record of being dismissive of criticism and refusing to engage in intellectual debates. He's actually the reason I hadn't given Pathfinder a chance until just recently. This doesn't actually bother me too, much to be honest. I understand that there is a desire for the developers to directly respond to fan criticism, but I can understand why they wouldn't want to, or wouldn't necessarily see the reasoning for it. It's not like the designers have never had these discussions with each other when they were first drawing up and testing the classes.

Echo chamber effect and all that has probably lead to the developers being resistant to listen to the loud and negative community. My issue with SKR's commentary, or perhaps a better phrase would be "confusion about", would be the tone he used on the forums.

[Drachasor]

Anyone got a link?

Hmm, I think it was just SKR. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py7w&page=1?Smite-Evil-and-Incorporeal-creatures)

I forgot how many times I had to repeat myself in that thread and the thread that spawned it (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxyw&page=1?Smite-Evil-on-an-Incorporeal). Manly because I was talking about supernatural attacks and a lot of people kept looking at text regarding "magical weapons."

And I was largely making a point that the text is unclear and there's a good case to be made for it.

Edit: And there was SKR's whole "targeting things isn't a game term" and related madness.

[Sith_Happens]

Supposedly he's the one behind the myriad Rogue nerfs. According to the legends, he got upset about sample flask rogue builds in the PF playtest and basically stated that if a rogue's doing something besides tumbling into flanking for a dagger sneak attack, he's being cheesy. And so splash weapons ceased to count as weapons (read Quickdraw and go "WTF?!" with me) and explicitly couldn't be sneak attacked with, blinking no longer granted SA, etc.... until the ranged rogue was dead.

Of course, then paizo also nerfed tumbling because I guess that's also cheesy or something. And then a few years after the core book, they unleashed the Flanking Foil feat upon the world and revealed that they were trolling this whole time and didn't actually think rogue should have *any* role in combat. :smallmad:

Considering the hoops you have to jump through to make the Factotum relevant in combat (though once you do it's a thing of beauty), this doesn't surprise me at all.


I kind of get the feeling that the good stuff (and the bad to an extent) Jason makes is more accidental than anything else. In the sense that he doesn't seem to understand game balance very well (and doesn't want to talk about it either).

Once again, see Factotum. While it's a great class, its writing style is so unlike almost anything else in the entire system that I'm surprised his editor didn't slap him.

[Ziegander]

This doesn't actually bother me too, much to be honest. I understand that there is a desire for the developers to directly respond to fan criticism, but I can understand why they wouldn't want to, or wouldn't necessarily see the reasoning for it. It's not like the designers have never had these discussions with each other when they were first drawing up and testing the classes.

Oh, I can understand the desire to not respond to fan criticism, and I am not bothered when the devs simply ignore it, but that's not what was/is happening. Buhlman would actively respond to critics, but when confronted with reasoning and analysis he was always dismissive. It's one thing to ignore critiques, it's another to be constantly going, "Well, I did it this way for reasons, and if you don't like it, then Pathfinder's not your game." Because that happened a lot.

[DR27]

Yes and no. Sure, they should have the freedom to say what they wish. But if it's stupid or horrifying or painful or otherwise nasty, then anyone who interacts with them on a personal or professional level should have the freedom to say "do not want!" and respond appropriately.This. As Evelyn Beatrice Hall wrote, “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

But I'll also add my personal addendum: "I'll defend to the death my right to ridicule the things you say that I disagree with."

SKR really deserves ridicule for his public ridicule of his bosses requests. They have a solid point that he did nothing to refute. Some books sell more than others just because. Tough titties, boo hoo - you didn't get your way and had to work at a job instead of getting money to jerk off to your personal D&D fluff. Write your fluff only books separately under a pseudonym and publish them under the OGL if you care that much. Or find a way to shoehorn more mechanics into your fluff books, or whatever. It's called problem solving, and I'm pretty sure even fast food workers are valued for this quality. Figure it out privately, or risk ridicule from random noobs like me. You can't really have it both ways.

[Kudaku]

Anyone got a link?

I'm guessing it was this (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py7w&page=1?Smite-Evil-and-Incorporeal-creatures) thread, but Jason never posted in it. It could also be this (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxyw&page=1?Smite-Evil-on-an-Incorporeal)one, but that does not have any developer posts.

Those where the only two threads I could find containing Drachasor posts and "smite evil".

For what it's worth I participated heavily in the Warpriest thread (which was assigned to Jason Bulmahn) and though I have to say his communication skills need work compared to other designers like Stephen, the changes he made to the initial Warpriest definitely took the community feedback into consideration.

That said, the initial Warpriest design was a piece of crap. :smalleek:

Edit: Ninjaed!

[Drachasor]

I'm guessing it was this (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py7w&page=1?Smite-Evil-and-Incorporeal-creatures) thread, but Jason never posted in it. It could also be this (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxyw&page=1?Smite-Evil-on-an-Incorporeal)one, but that does not have any developer posts.

Those where the only two threads I could find containing Drachasor posts and "smite evil".

For what it's worth I participated heavily in the Warpriest thread (which was assigned to Jason Bulmahn) and though I have to say his communication skills need work compared to other designers like Stephen, the changes he made to the initial Warpriest definitely took the community feedback into consideration.

That said, the initial Warpriest design was a piece of crap. :smalleek:

Edit: Ninjaed!

Maybe I should have looked at the Warpriest more. I mostly just looked at the Arcanist and Raging Berzerker. With a glance on the Pugilist.

Edit: Those SE threads were very frustrating. I spent half the time repeatedly clarifying what I was saying.

[Firechanter]

re Snake thing : this obviously Tulsa Doom from the first Conan movie.

re PF Paladin: I dug out my copy of the Alpha Playtest and don't see how it was worse than the 3.5 one. Not really better; just a few more meaningless abilities stacked on top - but technically not worse, unless I'm missing something. Care to enlighten me?

[Deophaun]

Edit: Those SE threads were very frustrating. I spent half the time repeatedly clarifying what I was saying.
But smite evil doesn't make your sword a magic weapon.

[Kudaku]

Well, the first thread is about 800 pages of numerous people (including me) arguing with Ciretose (before he was banned from the Paizo forums) about the favored weapon mechanic, but it does eventually improve somewhat :smallbiggrin:.

My main gripe with Jason in the Warpriest play test was that he just wasn't around very much - the Arcanist went through a major revision before the other classes and it felt like he was giving it all his attention for the first week, so the Warpriest thread was pretty much abandoned. When he released the revised Warpriest the changes did fix most of the main gripes people had with the class (action economy, favored weapon pidgeonholing, generally underwhelming to a plain fighter/cleric) but it would have been really, really nice if he'd have given us some hints as to those changes along the way.

As it was a lot of time and posts was spent reiterating arguments focusing on those downfalls that could have been spent more productively if he'd have popped in after ~400 posts and gone "got it, we'll open up Favored Weapon to more options" or "something like Spell Combat but that focuses on buffs instead of touch attacks? I'll look into that".

[Hurnn]

Hey, sometimes you really need to destroy angels and deathless. It's like the Decanter of Endless Holy Water in reverse! Turn the firehose on the good guys!

As for SKR...

Though he is gone, SKR's crowning achievement (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/prestige/serpentarcher.html)* will not be missed.

*Goofy as it is, if it was like, a single feat instead of a 7 level prestige class, I'd say it had potential. Firing a Venomfire'd snake at a dude would be pretty boss, especially since the damage from Venomfire procs when the venom is used, not on a bite attack. I dare say it would be a viable, if dumb, archer build.


It could be a fun 2 level dip, but thats it.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Hmm, I think it was just SKR. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py7w&page=1?Smite-Evil-and-Incorporeal-creatures)
I forgot how many times I had to repeat myself in that thread and the thread that spawned it (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxyw&page=1?Smite-Evil-on-an-Incorporeal). Manly because I was talking about supernatural attacks and a lot of people kept looking at text regarding "magical weapons.".
Holy HELL these people are stupid.

[Drachasor]

But smite evil doesn't make your sword a magic weapon.

http://i.imgur.com/GpIcvPr.jpg?1?1132

[Squirrel_Dude]

As it was a lot of time and posts was spent reiterating arguments focusing on those downfalls that could have been spent more productively if he'd have popped in after ~400 posts and gone "got it, we'll open up Favored Weapon to more options" or "something like Spell Combat but that focuses on buffs instead of touch attacks? I'll look into that".That goddamned class. I'm still frustrated by how terrible that thing was when it was first handed out for testing. At least by the end it was mostly serviceable, even if it was MAD. How bad was it at the start, you ask?

The class's entire schtick was fighting with bonuses based on their deity's favored weapon. The class did not start with, or gain automatic proficiency with their deity's favored weapon.

Ugh... Just, Ugh...

[Kudaku]

That goddamned class. I'm still frustrated by how terrible that thing was when it was first handed out for testing. At least by the end it was mostly serviceable, even if it was MAD. How bad was it at the start, you ask?

The class's entire schtick was fighting with bonuses based on their deity's favored weapon. The class did not start with, or gain automatic proficiency with their deity's favored weapon.

Ugh... Just, Ugh...

The revised version doesn't gain proficiency either :smallbiggrin:

At least he admitted that was an accidental omission (twice, no less) and he got a fair bit of ribbing over that when the play test ended.

And yeah, I still have the original play test PDF - I occasionally load it up just to look at the original warpriest and marvel at the sheer blandness of it.

[Squirrel_Dude]

The revised version doesn't gain proficiency either :smallbiggrin:

At least he admitted that was an accidental omission (twice, no less) and he got a fair bit of ribbing over that when the play test ended.

And yeah, I still have the original play test PDF - I occasionally load it up just to look at the original warpriest and marvel at the sheer blandness of it.That original class might as well have been renamed "5 Levels to Holy Vindicator."

Was it ever clarified whether or not the class qualified for fighter feats?

[Kudaku]

That original class might as well have been renamed "5 Levels to Holy Vindicator."

Was it ever clarified whether or not the class qualified for fighter feats?

To the best of my knowledge, no it was not - but since other classes (like the Brawler) had specific language that they qualified for fighter feats, the general consensus was that the warpriest did not qualify.

[Ziegander]

Hmm, I think it was just SKR. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py7w&page=1?Smite-Evil-and-Incorporeal-creatures)

I forgot how many times I had to repeat myself in that thread and the thread that spawned it (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxyw&page=1?Smite-Evil-on-an-Incorporeal). Manly because I was talking about supernatural attacks and a lot of people kept looking at text regarding "magical weapons."

And I was largely making a point that the text is unclear and there's a good case to be made for it.

Edit: And there was SKR's whole "targeting things isn't a game term" and related madness.

To your credit, I understood what you were saying immediately, and, yes, SKR's "explanation" of why Smite Evil works the way he says it does was really very stupid. It targets the Paladin? Does it? Did he even read what it says? I think a lot of times SKR and other designers like him think that because they say something it magically changes the rules. They just do not grasp that even though he might have written the rule, if it's not written the way he wants it to work, then it doesn't work the way he wants it to work.

[The Random NPC]

I'm here to defend the Feat Point system. It's an excellent system, it just needs a little work to perfect it. Like adjusting how much every feat is worth.
Seriously though, the system itself is good.

[Squirrel_Dude]

To the best of my knowledge, no it was not - but since other classes (like the Brawler) had specific language that they qualified for fighter feats, the general consensus was that the warpriest did not qualify. Of course it doesn't. :smallsigh:

I could probably complain about this class more and more, but I've ****ing hated it from the beginning, so that's not surprising. I could bitch about that whole book, from conceit to execution, for a really long time. Let's just drop it and not risk derailing the thread.

[Drachasor]

To your credit, I understood what you were saying immediately, and, yes, SKR's "explanation" of why Smite Evil works the way he says it does was really very stupid. It targets the Paladin? Does it? Did he even read what it says? I think a lot of times SKR and other designers like him think that because they say something it magically changes the rules. They just do not grasp that even though he might have written the rule, if it's not written the way he wants it to work, then it doesn't work the way he wants it to work.

Yeah, that does seem to often be a problem. Maybe they take bad wording personally. I don't know. PF in particular seems to have an issue where the designers like to say something that equates to "ignore the text, it works like this" which is weird when they can change the text. Seems like half the FAQ is like that.

[eggynack]

I'm here to defend the Feat Point system. It's an excellent system, it just needs a little work to perfect it. Like adjusting how much every feat is worth.
Seriously though, the system itself is good.
True enough. Sonofzeal did a revision (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245177) that repriced everything to a less completely stupid place. That normal version though, it's like every time I look at it, I'm somehow surprised by how bad it is. I already know a lot of this stuff by memory, like how melee feats are priced higher than magic feats for some reason, or how he decided that this list of baseline feats, like weapon focus, deserves one of the highest rankings. It still always surprises me. The feat point system is special like that.

[Harrow]

I'm here to defend the Feat Point system. It's an excellent system, it just needs a little work to perfect it. Like adjusting how much every feat is worth.
Seriously though, the system itself is good.

I'm actually going to agree with you here. I at first only read the basis of the idea, and it seemed good to me so I kept on in this thread. But then people kept complaining, so I went back and found the table.

By Pelor's shining gaze, is this satire? Weapon Focus < +2 X Save < Skill Focus < Scribe Scroll. They are not equal. And the Armor proficiency feats? I could leave that at normal stupidity instead of advanced stupidity if he just assumed that they didn't require pre-reqs. Heavy armor has as much benefit with much harsher drawbacks over light armor than light armor has over being unarmored. Marginal benefit ; learn it.

And his justification of the lowered cost of proficiency feats was basically "Well, fighters get a ton of them, so they can't be that good"

But now that I think of it, was there a thing on his little list of discounts for feats that have requirements? Because that should probably be the single biggest cost reducer.

Not that adding that would fix this abomination.

[Kudaku]

Of course it doesn't. :smallsigh:

I could probably complain about this class more and more, but I've ****ing hated it from the beginning, so that's not surprising. I could bitch about that whole book, from conceit to execution, for a really long time. Let's just drop it and not risk derailing the thread.

I agree and I disagree - I think a divine defensive counterpoint to the arcane offensive magus is a wonderful concept and I think the Warpriest has the potential to be a real gem. I've played similar characters before and there's definitely both untapped potential and room for a niche class there.

The way the original class was written is just so goddamn uninspired. Uh, let's give it some +1 bonuses to armor and weapons, throw on some bonus feats, partial spell progression, 'blessings'... Yeah, that looks about right.

The first time I read it I kept looking for the class-defining ability. Then I realized it stopped getting class features at lvl 7 and they were all about as much fun as watching paint dry.

I really, really hope the WP gets some much-deserved help before it's unleashed on the public. The revised edition is a big step in the right direction but it's still far from home.

[D-naras]

I'm here to defend the Feat Point system. It's an excellent system, it just needs a little work to perfect it. Like adjusting how much every feat is worth.
Seriously though, the system itself is good.

Of course it's good. It's a point buy system and these work. The tricky part is pricing the feats properly. You know, the thing that requires system knowledge, a bit of math, setting expectations and other stuff a RPG designer should know.

[Keneth]

[citation needed]

People will always be remembered for all the bad things they've done, regardless of how much good they might have done as well.


That doesn't excuse doing an actively terrible job of his job

I wasn't trying to make excuses for SKR or Paizo. We all know rule 0 is not an excuse for anything. I was simply stating a fact.

[Larkas]

I'm guessing it was this (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2py7w&page=1?Smite-Evil-and-Incorporeal-creatures) thread, but Jason never posted in it. It could also be this (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pxyw&page=1?Smite-Evil-on-an-Incorporeal)one, but that does not have any developer posts.

Those where the only two threads I could find containing Drachasor posts and "smite evil".

For what it's worth I participated heavily in the Warpriest thread (which was assigned to Jason Bulmahn) and though I have to say his communication skills need work compared to other designers like Stephen, the changes he made to the initial Warpriest definitely took the community feedback into consideration.

That said, the initial Warpriest design was a piece of crap. :smalleek:

Edit: Ninjaed!

Pretty much this. I participated in the Arcanist playtest, and I must say he payed attention to what was being said at the thread, and acted accordingly. Furthermore, he participated in the thread that culminated at this piece of errata (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5le61?Monkeying-Around), and wasn't dismissive even when the original poster was a little aggressive (and was actually quite sensible... let's see if I can dig it up). Maybe he's been working on improving his track record recently?

EDIT: Here it is (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p7fi&page=6?Paizo-needs-to-get-their-house-in-order#279).

EDIT2: Oh, look! SKR was the one that spawned the discussion (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nrv4&page=1?Flurry-of-Changes-to-Flurry-of-Blows)!

EDIT3: Oh, the taste of sweet, sweet irony. (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qpk9&page=5?Sean-K-Reynolds-is-leaving-Paizo#211)

PS: I also remember Jason commenting that the problems with the monk class are much deeper than can be resolved with items/single abilities, which indicates that he knows (at least now) that there's a problem, but don't know how, or can't, address it at the moment (errata can't change the number of pages, that kind of stuff). That's positive, though it isn't much good for us players in the short term.

[maximus25]

Happy Days Are Here Again!

[Boci]

People will always be remembered for all the bad things they've done, regardless of how much good they might have done as well.

That's not a citation. Seriously I am actually interested, what did he work on you find good? There's bound to be something.

[Darrin]

PS: I also remember Jason commenting that the problems with the monk class are much deeper than can be resolved with items/single abilities, which indicates that he knows (at least now) that there's a problem, but don't know how, or can't, address it at the moment (errata can't change the number of pages, that kind of stuff). That's positive, though it isn't much good for us players in the short term.

I don't have much hope there. Even if he's aware of the problem, I don't see how he could fix it if this is the same person that thinks that monks taking Improved Natural Attack is overpowered and that totally has to get hit with the nerfbat. Yeah, +1 average damage is so amazingly OP... guh. I can't... it just makes my soul hurt.

[Perseus]

That's not a citation. Seriously I am actually interested, what did he work on you find good? There's bound to be something.

I seconded this... I want to see some good SKR stuff.

[Larkas]

I don't have much hope there. Even if he's aware of the problem, I don't see how he could fix it if this is the same person that thinks that monks taking Improved Natural Attack is overpowered and that totally has to get hit with the nerfbat. Yeah, +1 average damage is so amazingly OP... guh. I can't... it just makes my soul hurt.

That's kind of the point. He says that a single feat like that doesn't make much to improve where a monk stands (which I agree), and since making it not work on Unarmed Strikes because it simply doesn't make sense (which I couldn't disagree more) won't change anything (which again I agree).

It's not so much about the end result, but the means to get there. Jason's "it shouldn't affect the monk much because the class' problems are much deeper" gives more hope than SKR's "it's OP, and you should feel bad for wanting things to work that way". IMO, of course.

[BlackDragonKing]

I'm here to defend the Feat Point system. It's an excellent system, it just needs a little work to perfect it. Like adjusting how much every feat is worth.
Seriously though, the system itself is good.

Properly priced, I think the feat point system would be fantastic. It would be a great way to get around feat taxes, make some of those non-scaling but sometimes handy skill-aiding feats more appealing, and generally allow bonus feat classes to get a lot more milage out of the extra "points" rather than blowing all their slots on bloated feat chains anyway. I mean, take the Vital Strike chain; in its third and final form, you now have two prerequisite feats that DON'T DO ANYTHING anymore; feats are not usually so freely given that people want to have two that are purely there to qualify for a third, which is a big, big problem with Spring Attack and the Wind/Lightning stances under the current system. I think the feat point system and maybe making some of the chains into feats that scale with level would streamline things immensely.

[Perseus]

Properly priced, I think the feat point system would be fantastic. It would be a great way to get around feat taxes, make some of those non-scaling but sometimes handy skill-aiding feats more appealing, and generally allow bonus feat classes to get a lot more milage out of the extra "points" rather than blowing all their slots on bloated feat chains anyway. I mean, take the Vital Strike chain; in its third and final form, you now have two prerequisite feats that DON'T DO ANYTHING anymore; feats are not usually so freely given that people want to have two that are purely there to qualify for a third, which is a big, big problem with Spring Attack and the Wind/Lightning stances under the current system. I think the feat point system and maybe making some of the chains into feats that scale with level would streamline things immensely.

Most feats geared toward mundanea could be given without prerequisites and it wouldn't harm the game.

Spring Attack? Pshaw, nothing that crazy... Heck it speeds up combat (no AoO).

The biggest problem I would have is that it still forces you to take crappy feats to get to a decent to good feat. The feat system needs to be reworked from the ground up, possibly with scaling feats, but the lower side of those shouldn't suck.

[subject42]

I feel kind of bad jumping on this train, but do any of you know if SKR made Vital Strike a standard action, and thus incompatible with spring attack?

[Snowbluff]

I seconded this... I want to see some good SKR stuff.

SKR's 3.5 stuff is something I find continuously applicable. Ghost Savage Progression and Divine Minion are his, if I recall correctly. Of course, neither of these are balanced...

[Perseus]

SKR's 3.5 stuff is something I find continuously applicable. Ghost Savage Progression and Divine Minion are his, if I recall correctly. Of course, neither of these are balanced...

Divine Minion is... Well the fluff is good but... Yeah I would say "great idea but lacking on the execution".

Ghost Savage... I have no clue about... I'll check it out though.

[Firechanter]

And I kinda agree with his verdict on Weapon Speeds (article on his website). Not necessarily with all of his reasoning, but with the main line of thought and conclusion. [short version so you don't need to read: speed of small weapons and reach of large weapons cancel out. Thus, no need for weapon speed.]

There! I said something nice about SKR!

[Perseus]

And I kinda agree with his verdict on Weapon Speeds (article on his website). Not necessarily with all of his reasoning, but with the main line of thought and conclusion. [short version so you don't need to read: speed of small weapons and reach of large weapons cancel out. Thus, no need for weapon speed.]

There! I said something nice about SKR!

I raise my +2 pitchfork and shout "Demon"!

:smalltongue:

[Darrin]

[short version so you don't need to read: speed of small weapons and reach of large weapons cancel out. Thus, no need for weapon speed.]


Yes, the annals of medieval history are full of the brave accounts of rank-and-file quick-bladed daggermen who valiantly stood their ground against a similar number of sluggish pikemen.

(Ok, to be fair, I concede from a game balance perspective he's got a point, and the larger problem of D&D's treatment of the history of weapon development is not something we can lay at the feet of SKR.)

[Eldan]

Yes, the annals of medieval history are full of the brave accounts of rank-and-file quick-bladed daggermen who valiantly stood their ground against a similar number of sluggish pikemen.

(Ok, to be fair, I concede from a game balance perspective he's got a point, and the larger problem of D&D's treatment of the history of weapon development is not something we can lay at the feet of SKR.)

Know what finally broke Swiss Pikemen and German Landsknechte on the battlefield? Unarmoured Spanish fighters with rapiers and bucklers.

[Kaisos Erranon]

Nobody in that "Goodbye to SKR" thread on the Paizo forums seems to understand WHY everyone who hasn't met him in real life hates his guts so much.
The answer is not simply "ignorance" or "malice". I wish they'd at least try to comprehend that.

[Nihilarian]

Nobody in that "Goodbye to SKR" thread on the Paizo forums seems to understand WHY everyone who hasn't met him in real life hates his guts so much.
The answer is not simply "ignorance" or "malice". I wish they'd at least try to comprehend that.Everyone who hates him is either staying quiet or pretending they don't, because they'll probably get banned if they express their joy at his departure.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Everyone who hates him is either staying quiet or pretending they don't, because they'll probably get banned if they express their joy at his departure.Or because it's impolite to walk into someone's going away party and start yelling about how this little world will undoubtedly be better when their gone.

[Dienekes]

Know what finally broke Swiss Pikemen and German Landsknechte on the battlefield? Unarmoured Spanish fighters with rapiers and bucklers.

The rodeleros were very much not unarmored, and that was one tactic that defeated the Swiss a handful of times, (and lost against them as well) when they were already on the decline. Arquebusiers, support polearms, and canons all had a hand in breaking the supremacy of the pikeline, and even then it survived as a useful tactic for quite some time.

[Perseus]

Or because it's impolite to walk into someone's going away party and start yelling about how this little world will undoubtedly be better when their gone.

Rude or not, doing just that would be the only way to really hammer home the fact that SKR didn't help paizo and that paizo is better off without him.

Or else they may stick with his ideas, hire similar people that get his recommendation, or hire him back.

Politeness isn't always for business or fandom. Politeness can in fact send the wrong message and make it viewed as support when you are against a subject.

[Larkas]

Everyone who hates him is either staying quiet or pretending they don't, because they'll probably get banned if they express their joy at his departure.

If you read closely, there are posts being deleted by the moderation. That's probably why you don't see any critics there.

[Drachasor]

Rude or not, doing just that would be the only way to really hammer home the fact that SKR didn't help paizo and that paizo is better off without him.

Or else they may stick with his ideas, hire similar people that get his recommendation, or hire him back.

Politeness isn't always for business or fandom. Politeness can in fact send the wrong message and make it viewed as support when you are against a subject.

But this isn't really the time or place. Paizo already made its decision regarding SKR and the sort of community they want to foster. They chose to go with Devs that are dismissive of technical and balance concerns by players -- and also dismissive of RAW (so much so they'll readily ignore it and even claim it says stuff that it doesn't rather than go with errata). This makes for a community that largely supports how SKR and other devs have acted, so you'll never see a big outcry against them on their own forums. People who dislike that atmosphere tend to not stick around.

Making a stink in that thread is at best going to get you banned and your posts deleted. At worse you are going to piss people off for no benefit. This is a time when nostalgia and well-wishing are high, and it is rude, mean-spirited, and unproductive to crap on it.

They aren't going to learn some lesson if they haven't already. How some people view SKR is already well-known and they didn't do a dang thing about it. Well, unless they've politely pushed him out the door, in which case complaining about him isn't going to do anything either.

[Squirrel_Dude]

If you read closely, there are posts being deleted by the moderation. That's probably why you don't see any critics there.Holy ****, they actually deleted one of mine. I didn't think it was that bad. Unfortunately, I can't it show it to you now, for obvious reasons. I will do my best to reproduce it.



Sean's handling of Golarion deities, his various Little Cool Things and his ability to counter-flame trolls will all be dearly missed. Because feeding a troll with the attention they crave instead of ignoring or banning them is the best way to deal with them.

I'll appreciate SKR's positive impacts on 3e game design, but I'll be glad to see less of his prickly personality

This is my only other post in the thread: [link] (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qpk9&page=3?Sean-K-Reynolds-is-leaving-Paizo#119)


To be clear: Don't rage against the machine here. I don't hold it against them for deleting it. I'm to surprised too do that right now. Just showing that Larkas is correct.

[Boci]

Or because it's impolite to walk into someone's going away party and start yelling about how this little world will undoubtedly be better when their gone.

Except its not a leaving party, its a forum thread, a bit less personal. I was actually quit surprised at the attitude of some of the staff, enough that it made me think maybe he quite for medical reasons, but then maybe I was just being overtly practical.

[Reverent-One]

To be clear: Don't rage against the machine here. I don't hold it against them for deleting it. I'm to surprised to do that right now. Just showing that Larkas is correct.

*Rage-

Oh.

*Unrages*

*Feels tired for two rounds*

But yeah, I'm not surprised, though that's because the mods in the thread have been explictly saying they're doing it and posting reminders that the thread isn't about the airing of grievances.

[Perseus]

But this isn't really the time or place. Paizo already made its decision regarding SKR and the sort of community they want to foster. They chose to go with Devs that are dismissive of technical and balance concerns by players -- and also dismissive of RAW (so much so they'll readily ignore it and even claim it says stuff that it doesn't rather than go with errata). This makes for a community that largely supports how SKR and other devs have acted, so you'll never see a big outcry against them on their own forums. People who dislike that atmosphere tend to not stick around.

Making a stink in that thread is at best going to get you banned and your posts deleted. At worse you are going to piss people off for no benefit. This is a time when nostalgia and well-wishing are high, and it is rude, mean-spirited, and unproductive to crap on it.

They aren't going to learn some lesson if they haven't already. How some people view SKR is already well-known and they didn't do a dang thing about it. Well, unless they've politely pushed him out the door, in which case complaining about him isn't going to do anything either.

Which is sad for them and their fans.

Sticking your fingers in your ears and going "BLAH BLAH BLAH" to criticism is a horrible way to deal with..err.. Well anything.

[Deophaun]

If I was a passive aggressive man like SKR, I'd suggest we all go to that thread and post about all the crap he did... as if it were good. Just to see if the mods catch on.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If I was a passive aggressive man like SKR, I'd suggest we all go to that thread and post about all the crap he did... as if it were good. Just to see if the mods catch on.

http://www.scancrit.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/excellent-4689_preview.png

[Metahuman1]

If I was a passive aggressive man like SKR, I'd suggest we all go to that thread and post about all the crap he did... as if it were good. Just to see if the mods catch on.

It took this team this long to have one person realize that Monks have issues. That's likely too subtle for them to catch on.

[georgie_leech]

I'm not a fan of SKR, but I can't imagine how that could possibly help anything. People will get upset, accounts will get banned, the divide between the Paizo and GitP forums gets bigger. Seriously, posting to get a rise out of the forums is pretty much the definition of Trolling, and no one wants to be a troll. Don't vindicate his attitude that those that disagree with him are just doing it for the sake of being disagreeable.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff: A thread about the merits or failings of a game system is fine, but a thread to bash a real life person is just trolling, and if said person is a poster here (however infrequent), it's also flaming.

Thread locked.