depressed players

[Azoth]

This tale starts out a bit odd. I was doing some cleaning before a session and found a few old campaign binders. They were open on my coffee table when my players showed up. The group noticed several battle maps and quickly realized they were the round by round maps for a single fight. To them it was inconcievable a single fight would go on for so long or require so much movement to finish. They started boasting they could handle the fight much faster than the group that ran it did.

This got on my nerves, as you can imagine. My previous group wasn't as good at optimizing their builds for power, but were much better at tactics and lateral thinking. They were also mostly friends I have had for over a decade.

So I agreed to let them test themselves. I pulled the character sheets from that portion of the campaign to see what ECL they were building for, gave them a rundown of the premise for the dungeon they would be in, and told them to have sheets ready for the next session to run it.

I spent the next week refreshing on the campaign and that fight in particular. When the session came I was ready to dish out the pain the encounters had in store. I had not changed the areas, monsters, traps, or anything about it despite this group being larger and more optimized.

They nearly died every step of the way and were TPKed by the fight that they thought they would walk right through. This happened for several reasons.

1) They had no skillmonkey so the trap filled temple riddled them with damage and poisons.

2) They did not think laterally in most instances and burned alot of resources defeating problems that seemed more complex than they were.

3) They did not work off eachother and instead tried to act independantly the entire time.

4) Every problem was met head on with little discussion or planning.

Now right after the session the group was pissed at me and claimed that there was no way that anyone short of myself (since I designed the entire thing) could build a party that could handle all of those challenges in one day without resorting to TO tricks. This is after I pointed out my previous group beat the entire thing with mechanically weaker characters.

After the session, I turned over all of my notes from that portion of the previous campaign. They got to read an effective play by play of how each challenge was beat and the fight was won by my previous group. They are now still mad at me but more depressed with themselves, and losing drive with our current campaign.

How do I help them get over this and rekindle their love of the game to save my campaign and the gaming group as a whole?

[shylocke]

Did you explain to them that your old group was on a different level of gameplay? Try easing them into a less kick in the door approach. That's what my DM did.

[Sir Chuckles]

You do have to explain to them, in detail, what went wrong and several ways of fixing it.
From there, do the encounter in a "Lite" version. UltraLite, even. Fit it organically with the rest of the campaign, before reflavoring and recoloring the original fight.

Then, if it went well, tell them. If it went poorly, start from square one.

[Kane0]

And chat to them too. Let them know they are still fine players regardless of playstyle and skill. Just encourage them to do what they want to do, and accommodate a little for that. A little bit of empathy should go a long way to bringing them back out. It sounds like their pride got a little banged up, and they are second guessing themselves.

How experienced are they compared to the previous group?
Actually, comparing them might cause more problems than it solves...

[Harlot]

State the obvious:
That the dungeon was originally designed specifically with the old groups style of play in mind, knowing they had a skillmonkey, and solved problems differently.

Tell them, that as DM you know the current groups style of play, strenghts and weaknesses very well, and that you ofcourse design the current campaign with that in mind. You adapt.

Examples: as a DM you don't design an undead campaign if there's no cleric/divine caster, you don't run a campaign with loads of diplomacy with a group of barbarians. You don't run them through trap-ridden mazes without a rogue etc.

Basically: "this was not designed with you in mind, and thus you were bound to fail. Don't blame yourselves, don't blame me. Now lets go kick some dungeon ass - your style!"

If they need conviction, redesign the dungeon with them in mind - not the same layout ofcourse, but with same number of encounters, same encounter levels, different monsters, puzzles, challenges etc., just to prove your point.

[rexx1888]

this type of problem is a pain to fix, just to preface what im about to say.

above is a post about how you should tell them the dungeon wasnt designed with them in mind. Its good advice. Still, you could also try to explain to them a thing referred to as the aesthetics of play(its googleable). To me, it sounds like the old group of players enjoyed challenge. I personally am a big fan of challenge. Its fun. Many players though dont have the stomach for it, or think that challenge is the same as tomb of horrors(its not but lets not go there) and throw a tantrum if you mention it as a play style.

If a player just wants to steam roll encounters or doesnt think about what they are doing, or they dont get a glow from overcoming particularly difficult fights, then they probably arent into challenge. An if they arent into that sort of playstyle, they are likely to be terrible at it. Ergo, your current players abject failure. On a side note, i wouldnt sugar coat that by the way. it may not be their cup of tea, but they asked to play the challenge based dungeon, and they failed. If they feel the need to beat it fair an square, maybe they are budding challenge enthusiasts, and youll be able to ramp the difficulty of your adventure modules(which is probably more fun for you tbh, its more fun to design them for certain).

anyway, thems my two cents :)

[Azoth]

My problem with coddling their egos is that their sulking occurs whenever they fail, even more so if they do misserably. I have explained to them at the start of EVERY campaign I have run them through, that I do not believe in plot protection or main character privilege.

This is also not the first time they have tried the whole "We are too awesomely skilled as players to lose to a fair challenge!" routine. Last time they pulled it, there was a TPK before they made it to the first fight of the starter dungeon. The same kind of moping occured, but they worked themselves out of it.

Unfortunately, I am a "Killer DM" at heart. Very much so the kind of person who will fill a corridor with traps KNOWING you don't have someone capable of detecting them. Why? Because that happens to be this vilain's schtick. You should have noticed it from the fact EVERY time he has attacked your group it has been ambushes and baited traps! You honestly thought his house wasn't going to be trapped...

To counteract this I often make NPCs that are capable of filling missing nitches and place them as contacts in my worlds. I also set up plot/mission hooks to get these guys endebted to the party. So if you need a trap checking corpse, guess what?! The head of the Thieves Guild in the town the BBEG lives in owes you a huge favor! Might wanna call it in!

Now don't get me wrong, I want to bring them out of their funk. I want us to start having fun and be excited about gaming together again. I just think that they need to swallow this piece of Humble Pie and realize that they can fail and aren't going to always rock out and win everything by being awesome.

Truth be told, I hold back alot when I design encounters for them. I do this because I know complex tactics and co-ordinated use of abilities isn't their strong point. Puzzles and traps are used sparingly because well...these are the kind of players that would use a warhammer to punch an Iron Ingot through a key hole in an attempt to make a "replica key" so they could unlock the door.

Which kind of amazes me really. They can think to launch Glitterdust at the enemies, give the BSF FOM, drop a black tentacles on enemies and watch him chain blender Blind, Grappled, and prone enemies with glee easily. Watch them trying to deal with similar tactics or walls seperating them is painful.

[rexx1888]

sounds like your a challenge fan. Just remember that you are playing the game too. Youre allowed to have fun as well. an if them gettin all funky couse they failed is making you unhappy, you have to talk to them about it. Specifically, point out that it isnt your fault they are refusing to think when faced with problems.

also, i have no idea what a killer dm is, but i will say this. If my dm is playing the ruthless orks that want to kill me, i expect them to be attempting to kill me :\ if there are players out there that honestly think otherwise, then they need a reality check. How is any decision they make worth squat if the dm isnt playing his role properly :(

[Crake]

State the obvious:
That the dungeon was originally designed specifically with the old groups style of play in mind, knowing they had a skillmonkey, and solved problems differently.

Tell them, that as DM you know the current groups style of play, strenghts and weaknesses very well, and that you ofcourse design the current campaign with that in mind. You adapt.

Examples: as a DM you don't design an undead campaign if there's no cleric/divine caster, you don't run a campaign with loads of diplomacy with a group of barbarians. You don't run them through trap-ridden mazes without a rogue etc.

Basically: "this was not designed with you in mind, and thus you were bound to fail. Don't blame yourselves, don't blame me. Now lets go kick some dungeon ass - your style!"

If they need conviction, redesign the dungeon with them in mind - not the same layout ofcourse, but with same number of encounters, same encounter levels, different monsters, puzzles, challenges etc., just to prove your point.

The problem with all that is that the dungeon was already designed, and the players made characters specifically with that dungeon in mind, they weren't using characters from another game or something. So they had all the options available, knew roughly what they'd be up against, but they didn't make the right decisions.

That said, everything you stated is still true. A good DM will adapt a campaign to suit the players' playstyle, so if they like to kick in the door, a kick-down-the-door style dungeon would be what the DM would make.

[Tengu_temp]

Different people play the game differently. If you want the game to be fun for everyone, you'd have to adjust to their playstyle - less tactical challenges, more situations that require out of the box thinking. Because I don't think they will adjust to yours. You can call it "coddling their egos", I call it "adjusting the game to your group's style so they actually have fun".

Also, all other factors aside, throwing a trap-filled dungeon at a party without a skillmonkey is just not okay.

[Azoth]

Also, all other factors aside, throwing a trap-filled dungeon at a party without a skillmonkey is just not okay.

That is like saying using flying enemies against a party that isn't fliers themselves is not okay. Sending undead against a party without a cleric isn't okay. Having them fight anything with a special ability you haven't given them the means to specifically stop...isn't okay.

To me that is like saying having my car throw the engine rod isn't okay because I personally can't rebuild the engine myself. Doesn't matter that I have friends who are mechanics or that there are several repair shops in my city, I can't fix it so it shouldn't happen.

Guess what? That won't stop my car from throwing its engine rod. I need to deal with someone who has the skills to fix it if I still want to use my car.

In my games, there are people who do that kind of thing for a living. I make the PCs aware of them. I go out my way to give them a chance to get the guy endebted to the party so he HAS TO HELP IF ASKED.

That is far better than life has given me when I need a mechanic, ac repair man, doctor visit. That doesn't come without a price tag.

[Tengu_temp]

"Party" is a term that also includes NPCs travelling with the PCs. Why such a knee-jerk reaction? If you react like this while DMing too, then I can see why the group is frustrated so often.

Now, if they have access to NPCs who can take care of traps for them, that's okay. No idea why didn't they take their services though. Maybe ask them and see what their reason was.

[Azoth]

Sorry for the knee jerk reaction. I am dealing with an insomniatic fit at the moment. Haven't slept in close to 60hrs. This makes me a bit impulsive and rather rude.

I also hate the "Its not fair" line alot on a personal level.

I also previously stated that because I build dungeons with themes or certain tactics that I make NPCs that can tackle these things avalable to the players. This is independant of if they can handle it or not.

Alot of times they don't do it because in their minds it is better to risk death than run the risk of forking over any loot or paying for services. Doesn't matter if the have a "Redeem for 1 free favor! No questions asked" cupon. They automatically think adding anyone to the group means smaller shares of loot to go around.

With this mentality, I honestly thought that by now, they would build characters to cover all the bases. This is not the case at all.

[Harlot]

The more I read what you write, Azoth, the more I find your DM'ing style to be the heart of the problem here - not in general (how would I know? As it is descibed here I would like your style in a DM very much!) but in regard to this particular group of players:

You have been playing several campaigns with them by now, and you know your players well. You know their style, and their weaknesses. You also know what they are and aren't capable of pulling off - as players.
And that is not a lot - they are not smart as players, they do stupid things, they don't plan ahead, they split up, when they shouldn't etc.
For you it is frustrating as hell watching them fail at simple tasks when all of the solutions are RIGHT THERE for every one to see. And they don't see it. But even more frustrating to listen to their complaints afterwards.
But the thing is: Theirs is not a style of play, chosen consciously. It is mere stupidity. It cannot be cured, and they will never learn. The 'not learning' part seems obvious.

And STILL you insist of making campaigns in which they ought to think of using NPC's (they don't) or that requires subtlety and scheming, when their style is kick-in-the-door.They obviously cannot change how they play. You've tried to guide them, instruct them, give them hints, and they don't grasp what you're getting at.

No wonder you run into the same problem over and over again!

You like to run your campaigns your way, and you're the DM so thats your right ofcourse. But knowing they cannot adapt to your style op play, why insist on sticking to it?

Essentially D&D is about having fun, and at this point your game sounds more like a struggle - for them, because they find the challenges unfair or too hard and can't figure out how to adapt to the challenges you throw at them. For you because their lack of imagination does not fit your style as a DM.

IMO you have to be the solution; you ought to adapt to their style of play.
And if that is 'not using flying enemies against a party that isn't fliers themselves' (which is a rather extreme example; I blame your insomnia) then yes, so be it. Don't cuddle them, but give them things they understand how to handle.

If you will not change your style (I actually understand if you will not - there's nothing wrong with it per se, and it has worked just great with other groups of players) and they cannot fathom how to change theirs, and neither part is really enjoying the sessions, then why bother playing at all?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Azoth
3) They did not work off eachother and instead tried to act independantly the entire time.

4) Every problem was met head on with little discussion or planning.

You know your players far better than I do, but these two lines in particular suggest that there's a deficit of maturity in this group. Especially your description of their boasting before the session and the sulking afterward.


Originally Posted by Azoth
My problem with coddling their egos is that their sulking occurs whenever they fail, even more so if they do misserably.

Again, this strikes me as incredibly immature.


Originally Posted by Tengu_temp
Because I don't think they will adjust to yours. You can call it "coddling their egos", I call it "adjusting the game to your group's style so they actually have fun".

You certainly have a point here, but I think a DM should also have the right to run the kind of campaign he wants, since he's the one putting in the time, energy, and effort to design and manage the whole shebang. There should be a modicum of fun in there for the DM as well.


Originally Posted by Azoth
That is like saying using flying enemies against a party that isn't fliers themselves is not okay. Sending undead against a party without a cleric isn't okay....

To me that is like saying having my car throw the engine rod isn't okay because I personally can't rebuild the engine myself.... Guess what? That won't stop my car from throwing its engine rod.

Very much so. To me, an essential part of the challenge in an adventure is for the party to deal with situations and opponents they weren't expecting and aren't designed to easily dispose of. And really, a heavily trapped lair isn't that much of a curveball.

Also, I really dislike that particular flavor of player entitlement which believes any stiff challenge is an affront to their natural right to steamroll everything in their path. I've dealt with that in more than one campaign. It's never enjoyable, and it always seems to come down to individual maturity, or lack thereof.

[prufock]

The man's undone forever; for if Hector break not his
neck in the combat, he'll break it himself in
vain-glory.

Your players, in their hubris, fell. Had they succeeded, their arms would be wrenched from their shoulders in patting themselves on the backs. And now they cry because their vainglory was not justified.

One type of person will see failure as an opportunity to learn and a motivator to improve. We call this person resilient. Another type of person will see failure as an opportunity to give up and a motivator to cry "unfair." We call this person whiny.

If it wasn't for the fact that their sulking is disrupting the game, I'd say let them sulk for a while. I'm a fan of the direct approach. If they're acting whiny, ask them "What the heck is your guys' problem lately, anyway?" If their response is along the lines of what I'm thinking it would be, I'd answer "Oh grow up and get over yourselves. Your egos got shot because you were so full of yourselves and claimed you could steamroll an encounter I ran with a group years ago. You failed because you thought you were too good for planning and strategy. Are you going to cry about it for the next six months or what?"

[caden_varn]

Like many other of the posters, it does sound to me like a fundamental difference in playstyle between the DM and the players. Given that it seems to have been going on for a long time, it seems neither side wants the change.

First thing to say is there is nothing wrong with either playstyle IMO, but neither is innately superior to the other. That out of way, I'd always start by suggesting talking to the players, asking what they want from a game and enjoy about a game. Then tell them what you enjoy about the game and what you want out of it. THis needs to be a two way discussion, to see if you can find some kind of compromise you are all happy with - whether that is them adapting their style, you adapting yours or both adapting towards the centre.

If not, you need to think about whether this group is for you. I personally prefer not to play than to play in a group with a playstyle wildly different from my preferences. It might be walk away, or swap to playing boardgames or whatever else is appropriate in your case.

[Eldonauran]

... I would be honored to have a DM like Azoth.

I think there are a lot more issues going on here than just a difference in DMing style though to discuss those things would bring up my theories and opinions on real world issues, which I will spare everyone from.

Azoth, you need to be having fun otherwise what's the point? Hopefully you and your group can have a good discussion on this issue. I have found many times that it goes much smoother if you approach a player individually, rather than as a group. Explaining your preferred style is always easier one-on-one rather than in a group, since there will be a group mentality and other people's opinions that can, and will, drown out your own.

[prufock]

Like many other of the posters, it does sound to me like a fundamental difference in playstyle between the DM and the players. Given that it seems to have been going on for a long time, it seems neither side wants the change.

I disagree. I don't even think this is a gaming problem, I think this is a personal attitude problem. They got upset that they made a prideful challenge and then failed. Okay, fine, happens to the best of us. They then sulked about it.

Have you ever played a board game or a sport with a sore loser? Someone who claims you were cheating, or that they don't like this game anyway, or just sits and fumes because they lost?

I would be more sympathetic if this was their main campaign and the DM was brutal and unfair, but this was a boastful challenge that they made to the DM. They built characters specifically for this challenge, and had time to prep. The DM showed his notes when all was said and done so that they could see that it wasn't an unfair challenge.

All that happened was their pride got hurt and they couldn't handle it. This is a personality trait.

[Harlot]

We kind of got away from the original question:

How do I help them get over this and rekindle their love of the game to save my campaign and the gaming group as a whole?

I must agree with the fora in here that, yes, in this particular case they have no right to be sulking, it was hubris, end of. Stop moaning...

But there is an underlying problem, and whether it is a difference in playstyles, immaturity in the group or a 'sore loser attitude', or all of the above, it is hardly important.

IMO it boils down to this: If you honestly want to help them and rekindle their love for the game, and do not want to split from the group, you have to meet them on their terms, more or less at least. Be the bigger man.
Because they cannot stomach a defeat, they cannot stomach a TPK, which admittedly is very bad gaming, but that is the kind of players you're stuck with, and you seem to want the group to continue.

Find out what kind of games and challenges they like, ask them directly what they specifically disliked in the recent game. and the previous games Talk!

THEN, when you know what they want from their DM, ponder this:
Is it worth it? How much must you go out of your way to make them re-like the game? If making their kind of campaign would make you yourself unhappy, then there's no reason to continue as a DM in this group.
Ask another player to DM for a while, and stay on as a player instead.
Then you can be the skillmonkey, they do not know they need.