Monk/Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja Build Help.

[CrazyYanmega]

Hello Giants! Another Optimization question from yours truly!

I am running a Poison Dusk Lizardfolk Monk, and was flipping through the Tome of Battle when I found the perfect Prestige class for him: Shadow Sun Ninja. It fits perfectly with his +9 Racial and Size Bonuses to Hide, and I tend to roll high for Hide and Move Silently. Also, the "Giant Killing Style" Setting Sun stance works well with his small size.

I am wondering when I should get out of Monk and start leveling in Swordsage, and whether or not I should level in Shadow Sun Ninja as soon as I am able. Also, any recommendations regarding Maneuvers, Stances, or Feats?

Character Info:The monk's name is Szazrik'k, he is level 2 with +1 LA, which he will be buying off shortly. His ability scores are as follows: STR 15, DEX 16, CON 15, INT 13, WIS 15, and CHA 9. The DM ruled that he can chain his Flurry of Blows to his natural 2 Claws and Bite, but loses the first extra strike from Flurry of Blows.

Any extra tips or tricks are always appreciated, as usual.

EDIT: Important note: The campaign revolves around climbing the inside of gigantic trees.

[Toshiro]

Monk 2/Swordsage 6/Shadow Sun Ninja x. You want to get into the prestige class early because the SSN excels 10th-15th levels. You only need to go into monk for two levels just to get evasion, nothing else is worth while. Are you using the normal Swordsage or the Unarmed variant? If you're not doing the Unarmed Swordsage, what are you doing with your life. Do the Unarmed Swordsage so you can continue your monk capabilities for trading in your light armor bonus (you don't need it anyways). For maneuvers, Assassin Stance is a must. +2d6 sneak attack damage? awesome. ^-^ Clinging Shadow Strike and Shadow Blade Technique are great first picks. Baffling Defense at level two is hilariously great to use to dodge incoming attacks. Shadow Jaunt, 'nuff said so take it. I'll get back to more maneuvers and stances later.

For Feats:
Improved Natural Attack - Not only improves your bite and claws, but it also helps your monk capabilities. (Only one of them though.)
Snap Kick - Extra 1d12 attack at full attack bonus? Take it as soon as you can.
Weapon Finesse - Exchange your Str. for Dex. on attack roles. Look at the next feat.
Shadow Blade - Add your Dex. for damage with your Str. and it's for people with the Shadow Hand disciple. (aka Swordsages)
Gloom Razer - Just a follow up feat for the previous two feats, but it's a nice tactical feat.

If your campaign is around the forest, think about splashing 3 levels of Fist of the Forest?

[Urpriest]

For Feats:
Improved Natural Attack - Not only improves your bite and claws, but it also helps your monk capabilities.

Only works on one of the attacks, and is a pretty small boost unless it's for Unarmed Strike, so probably not worth it. The others are good, though.

Fist of the Forest isn't really a forest class so much as a hobo class, not sure if it would be useful here.

You might want to look into feats like Confound the Big Folk if you want to exploit your small size.

[Toshiro]

Fist of the Forest isn't really a forest class so much as a hobo class, not sure if it would be useful here.


I only recommend it for "flavor" of the class along with the monk's level progression for unarmed strike.

Forgot Improved Natural Attack only goes for one. I only use it for Unarmed Strike anyways. >_>

[Fouredged Sword]

And Shadow Blade adds your DEX to damage WITH your STR, it does not replace it.

[CrazyYanmega]

Monk 2/Swordsage 6/Shadow Sun Ninja x. You want to get into the prestige class early because the SSN excels 10th-15th levels. You only need to go into monk for two levels just to get evasion, nothing else is worth while. Are you using the normal Swordsage or the Unarmed variant? If you're not doing the Unarmed Swordsage, what are you doing with your life. Do the Unarmed Swordsage so you can continue your monk capabilities for trading in your light armor bonus (you don't need it anyways).

If your campaign is around the forest, think about splashing 3 levels of Fist of the Forest?

What is this Unarmed Variant of Sword Sage? Could you direct me to it?

The Campaign isn't forest based. It's a single, fast growing, destructive tree which may or may not have cursed Wish Fruits at the top.

[Red Fel]

What is this Unarmed Variant of Sword Sage? Could you direct me to it?

At the end of the Swordsage section of ToB is a heading marked "Adaptation." It proposes that you could lose the Swordsage's light armor proficiency, but gain the Monk's "unarmed strike progression." The problem is that (1) the term "unarmed strike progression" is not defined, and (2) this isn't a properly statted variant or ACF, but rather just a general proposal, and thus subject to a certain amount of massaging and DM approval.

Many people take it to mean that the Swordsage loses light armor proficiency, gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at Swordsage 1, and deals unarmed damage as a Monk of his Swordsage level.

[Urpriest]

I only recommend it for "flavor" of the class along with the monk's level progression for unarmed strike.


That's what I meant. It's ok mechanically, but the flavor isn't very sylvan, so I wouldn't recommend it for the flavor.


What is this Unarmed Variant of Sword Sage? Could you direct me to it?


It's right after the Swordsage class entry. It's not fully detailed, so your DM would need to clarify a few things.

[Tokiko Mima]

What is this Unarmed Variant of Sword Sage? Could you direct me to it?

It's in the Adaption section at the end of the Swordsage description in Tome of Battle. You get Unarmed Strike as a Monk of your swordsage level, in exchange for Light Armor proficiency. A great trade for anyone with Monk levels.

If you really want to uber your unarmed attack damage, I would go the route of taking a few warlock levels as well, and using the Eldritch Claws/Beast Strike feat combo. It's a good way to double your UA damage, as well as having it advance a d6 whenever your eldritch blast damage does. It's especially handy since warlocks can get items to directly add EB dice. You basically give yourself the ranged capabilities of a fighting games character while making your punch even more lethal. It's also nice to combo with Touch of the Shadow Sun, meaning it will damage/heal enough to make it worthwhile as a tactic.

Also, if I can give a suggestion: the Spiderwalk invocation will help massively in a campaign where you are climbing a tree. It's a Least invocation and easy to grab if you'll be using it.

[CrazyYanmega]

Monk 2/Swordsage 6/Shadow Sun Ninja x. You want to get into the prestige class early because the SSN excels 10th-15th levels. You only need to go into monk for two levels just to get evasion, nothing else is worth while.

For maneuvers, Assassin Stance is a must. +2d6 sneak attack damage? awesome. ^-^ Clinging Shadow Strike and Shadow Blade Technique are great first picks. Baffling Defense at level two is hilariously great to use to dodge incoming attacks. Shadow Jaunt, 'nuff said so take it. I'll get back to more maneuvers and stances later.

For Feats:
Improved Natural Attack - Not only improves your bite and claws, but it also helps your monk capabilities. (Only one of them though.)
Snap Kick - Extra 1d12 attack at full attack bonus? Take it as soon as you can.
Weapon Finesse - Exchange your Str. for Dex. on attack roles. Look at the next feat.
Shadow Blade - Add your Dex. for damage with your Str. and it's for people with the Shadow Hand disciple. (aka Swordsages)
Gloom Razer - Just a follow up feat for the previous two feats, but it's a nice tactical feat.

If your campaign is around the forest, think about splashing 3 levels of Fist of the Forest?

Would Assassin Stance really be that good compared to Giant Slayer Style? We're mostly fighting plant monsters, which are immune to crits and thus also immune to SA. Giant Slayer Style, on the otherhand, give +2 to all attack rolls and +4 to all damage rolls against anything Medium-Sized or larger, which is almost everything.

I can see Snap Kick working, which would give me a minimum of 5 attacks per round. Shadow Blade not so much, since I would (1) have to be in a Shadow Blade stance for it to work, and (2) need to be using a Shadow Hand associated weapon, of which Unarmed Strike and Natural Attacks are not part of.

Is Improved Natural Attack really worth taking on this character? Going from 1d3 to 1d4 damage dice for either claws or bite seems pretty lousy compared to what else I could spend the feat on.

[Toshiro]

Would Assassin Stance really be that good compared to Giant Slayer Style? We're mostly fighting plant monsters, which are immune to crits and thus also immune to SA. Giant Slayer Style, on the otherhand, give +2 to all attack rolls and +4 to all damage rolls against anything Medium-Sized or larger, which is almost everything.


I'm just recommending it. You can always switch out your maneuvers and stances.



I can see Snap Kick working, which would give me a minimum of 5 attacks per round. Shadow Blade not so much, since I would (1) have to be in a Shadow Blade stance for it to work, and (2) need to be using a Shadow Hand associated weapon, of which Unarmed Strike and Natural Attacks are not part of.

Shadow Blade only for Gloom Razer if you're focusing on Shadow Hand disciple since all the tactical abilities it gives you for concealment. If you talk with your DM, if you're using the Unarmed Variant, I'm sure he will allow you to use it as a Shadow Hand weapon.



Is Improved Natural Attack really worth taking on this character? Going from 1d3 to 1d4 damage dice for either claws or bite seems pretty lousy compared to what else I could spend the feat on.

Get Improved Natural Attack on your Unarmed Strike.

[Urpriest]

Would Assassin Stance really be that good compared to Giant Slayer Style? We're mostly fighting plant monsters, which are immune to crits and thus also immune to SA. Giant Slayer Style, on the otherhand, give +2 to all attack rolls and +4 to all damage rolls against anything Medium-Sized or larger, which is almost everything.

In your situation, yeah, Giant Slayer is probably better. That said, there are ways to really boost up the sneak attack, including wands of Vinestrike to let it work on plants, Craven to give you +level to damage, and various feats that let you sacrifice sneak attack damage for debuffs. Shadow Blade also won't work in Giant Slayer Stance, if that ends up being useful. Basically, Assassin Stance is good if you can invest resources in it, but if you can't Giant Slayer is better.


I can see Snap Kick working, which would give me a minimum of 5 attacks per round. Shadow Blade not so much, since I would (1) have to be in a Shadow Blade stance for it to work, and (2) need to be using a Shadow Hand associated weapon, of which Unarmed Strike and Natural Attacks are not part of.

IIRC Unarmed Strikes are Shadow Hand weapons. Claws and Bites aren't though, yes.


Is Improved Natural Attack really worth taking on this character? Going from 1d3 to 1d4 damage dice for either claws or bite seems pretty lousy compared to what else I could spend the feat on.

Yeah, it's not worth it. Even on your Unarmed Strikes it's not going to be a huge jump in damage, and you're better off spending feats on more meaningful things.

[Fouredged Sword]

One feat to look into is beast strike. It adds your claw base damage to any unarmed strikes you preform. Now, 1d4 added damage doesn't seem like much, but it is added to every unarmed hit, so it can add up.

If you can get your claw to deal bashing damage somehow, you can get the party wizard to target it with greater mighty wallop every day (along side your unarmed strike). Then you are looking at much more damage on every hit.

[Red Fel]

Yeah, it's not worth it. Even on your Unarmed Strikes it's not going to be a huge jump in damage, and you're better off spending feats on more meaningful things.

Agreeing with Urpriest here, but consider something else - Beast Strike.

Tokiko mentioned it earlier in connection with Eldritch Blast, but it's great on any build that uses unarmed strikes and claw attacks. With your house rule, it actually doubles your claw damage on Flurry of Blows; instead of doing unarmed, then claw, then bite, you do (unarmed and claw), then claw, then bite. Which is pretty nice, really. (Note that, ordinarily, claws are not part of a Flurry of Blows; Beast Strike gets around this.)

As an alternative to Assassin's Stance, consider taking Hunter's Sense. Scent is a great ability, hands down.

EDIT: And, appropriately for the thread, swordsage'd.

[CrazyYanmega]

I can't seem to find this "Beast Strike." Could you clarify what it is? A feat, or a maneuver?

Also, someone was kind enough to send me a homebrew feat called "Twin Dragon Disciple," which is very nice and would probably bump me up in combat prowess.


Twin Dragon Disciple

Prerequisites

Must be able to ready 2nd level maneuvers from Shadow Hand/Desert Wind/Setting Sun disciplines, Flurry of Blows class feature

Benefit

Your swordsage and monk levels stack for determining maneuvers/stances known/readied as well as their initiator level.

Your swordsage and monk levels stack for determining Flurry of Blows and Unarmed damage.
Thank you, Garagos!

[Red Fel]

Beast Strike was a feat in Dragon Magazine (I think Dragon #355). It's a General or Fighter feat, requires BAB 5+, Improved Unarmed Strike, and a claw or slam attack. It adds your claw or slam damage to your unarmed strikes and damaging grapple checks.

If your table doesn't allow Dragon Magazine, it'll be no-go; but if they allow homebrew, it's not unreasonable to ask for Dragon.

[Particle_Man]

Another thing to get maybe is Leadership and get a cohort with the necropolitan template. Then you basically have unlimited healing of hp between combats (touch the cohort, touch a living guy, touch the cohort, touch a living guy, rinse and repeat).

[CrazyYanmega]

Another thing to get maybe is Leadership and get a cohort with the necropolitan template. Then you basically have unlimited healing of hp between combats (touch the cohort, touch a living guy, touch the cohort, touch a living guy, rinse and repeat).

Necropolitan Template? What is that?

Also, we already have a healer NPC, though it IS a pain in the rear trying to get him up the tree.

[Lanaya]

Necropolitan Template? What is that?

It's in Libris Mortis. It's a no-frills undead template, no fancy abilities or undead powers or anything, just changes your type to undead and doesn't cost you any LA.