Durkon's Character Development

[Rakoa]

So, with it revealed that Durkon is in fact not this horrible vampire, what do you think this means for his character development? Given that he is (likely) still perfectly himself inside this undead imposter, where is the room for developing his character further? After all, the Giant has been planning this for years. There has to be something more to it than just another way of introducing conflict, then the vampire is staked and Durkon comes back and it's all good.

I would imagine most of it will come from Durkon's reactions to a lot of things. How his trusted party members allowed this to go on, how "he" was forced to do horrible things as this vampire, his ability to come to terms with what his reality was...

I am operating under the assumption that Durkon will come back, and it might just be wishful thinking, but I see it as inevitable.

So, what do you guys think this could mean for Durkon's character?

[Kish]

To what extent he can have character development from this, it appears it will take the form of "this was the worst thing that ever happened to me," rather than, "My viewpoint changed." Durkon is not in the driver's seat and the High Priest of Hel shows no sign of being one jot more multidimensional or sympathetic than Malack ultimately was.

I think at this point there's a good chance that Durkon will finish the comic largely the same character he was when he first appeared in On the Origins of PCs, with the message, insofar as there is one, being something like "not every protagonist needs character development."

[jidasfire]

Depending how instrumental Durkon himself is in breaking free of this threat, I would say he will have to overcome his greatest flaw: his passivity. Durkon has always been wiser and more mature than most of his team, his character development having been mostly completed during Origin of the PCs. Still, he generally has a problem with sitting back and letting the others take the spotlight, quietly willing to support them and keep the team together by not acting out in the same way the others do.

In this case, however, there's no one else to save the day. Everyone trusts the imposter, believing he's just Durkon with a new diet, except for Belkar, and no one trusts Belkar. Hence, Durkon will have to finally step up and do this himself. Of course, just how he's going to defeat a horrid monster in control of his body when presumably no one in his position has never succeeded before is anyone's guess. If the past is any indicator, however, our dwarf will have to become a better version of himself, drawing upon his inner strengths in ways he never thought he could.

Can he do it? Can Durkon mitigate any of the High Priest of Hel's impending atrocities (and let's be clear, they are coming)? I hope so, though I admit to having no idea how he might even begin.

[Acrux]

I was so very glad to see Durkon inside the vampire, because Durkon doesn't really need character development, not in the sense it's usually thought of. After all, he's essentially been the moral advisor and protector of OOTS. The real development is how does the rest of OOTS react to losing a stable influence.

Potentially, I suppose that Durkon could eventually break free and begin influencing the vampire, which could make for interesting character interaction down the line: who's really in control, and how much should OOTS trust a vampire being influencing by a LG cleric?

[Ghost Nappa]

I'm expecting that when Count Durkula, High Priest of Hel moves to betray the Order, Durkon Thundershield is going to really start nailing those Will saves (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FightingFromTheInside) and we're gonna see a bit of conflict between them (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IKnowYoureInThereSomewhereFight?from=Main.IKnowYou AreInThereSomewhereFight).

With any luck, they will meet up with O-Chul and we will have a few things to say regarding enduring evil when being held captive and he will take it to heart and at some scale inconvenience Count Durkula, High Priest of Hel.

[AKA_Bait]

With any luck, they will meet up with O-Chul and we will have a few things to say regarding enduring evil when being held captive and he will take it to heart and at some scale inconvenience Count Durkula, High Priest of Hel.

The mention of O-Chul makes me wonder something. How is the Sapphire Guard going to react to V's briefing?

My bet, Hinjo tells them to stake the HPH (High Priest of Hel) immediately, perhaps causing some conflict between Hinjo and Roy.

[Ghost Nappa]

The mention of O-Chul makes me wonder something. How is the Sapphire Guard going to react to V's briefing?

My bet, Hinjo tells them to stake the HPH (High Priest of Hel) immediately, perhaps causing some conflict between Hinjo and Roy.

I take it not well:

Belkar was already evil, "Durkon" is for all intents and purposes Evil, and V while repentant still owes about 23 minutes to the IFCC.

But I'm interested in the response to Durkon's Vampirization from:

Hinjo, Lien, O-Chul (as Paladins)
Hilgya (as a High Level Dwarven Cleric)
The High Priest of Thor

[DeliaP]

I'm going to quote what I said about character development from the main thread:



A comment on character development: this doesn't necessarily mean character change. A character gets more 'developed' when they spend more time in the spotlight, when we get to understand them better and know them in more detail. Sometimes the events that put the character in the spotlight can also cause them to grow and change, but it doesn't have to mean that. I think we're going to get more character development of Durkon, in the sense that we are going to get to know him in more detail, as we see him struggle inside his infernal prison. But it will still be the good, benevolent Durkon.


Durkon hasn't seen as much spotlight time as any of the other characters: even Belkar has shown us more of what is going on inside his head.

If you haven't read OotPCs, Durkon's motivations are pretty hard to fathom: a letter to the dwarven homelands, and an unusual response to a (misundertsood) prophecy are about all that was given, prior to the fight with Malack. OotPCs shows more of Durkon's good qualities, but not hugely more of what makes him tick.

My prediction is just that this is going to change, in this way: the Unnamed High Priest of Hel will be having his own subplot, with a lot of spotlight time, in Book 6. Durkon will be interacting with, fighting against, resisting the Unnamned High Priest of Hel. Just being in the spotlight, and getting dialogue will show us a lot more of Durkon's character than we have previously seen. I strongly suspect that the Giant has always considered Durkon to be one of the nobler and most benevolent of the OotS characters: I think now he's going to show us that side more clearly.

As a comparison, Haley spent how many comics completely unable to talk to any of rest of the OotS, and yet look at how much we learned about her during that time? All of that would have been good character development for Haley, even if she hadn't changed at the end of it.

As to how, or if, Durkon may, or may not, change, during the spotlight time that is coming: there I have nothing but wild guesses. (But I don't expect him to come out of it with a more tolerant view of undead! :smallwink: )


Depending how instrumental Durkon himself is in breaking free of this threat, I would say he will have to overcome his greatest flaw: his passivity. Durkon has always been wiser and more mature than most of his team, his character development having been mostly completed during Origin of the PCs. Still, he generally has a problem with sitting back and letting the others take the spotlight, quietly willing to support them and keep the team together by not acting out in the same way the others do.

Wait, how is this a flaw??

[jidasfire]

Wait, how is this a flaw??

Well, the point I was making in that case is he no longer has the option. This time, he's the only one who's fully aware of the threat, so he has to step up.

As to the rest of it, I don't mean his helpfulness is a flaw so much as it's proof that most of his character development was done before the story started, so he hasn't needed as much time in the spotlight to grow. Now though, his skillset, such as it is, will not be enough. There's no one for him to support out of this mess. He likely has to save the day himself or it's not going to get done.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Depending how instrumental Durkon himself is in breaking free of this threat, I would say he will have to overcome his greatest flaw: his passivity.

Agreed, and I would add that there is also a different trait (not really a flaw) that Durkon will also need to overcome: his lawfulness. "The Rules" say that he is trapped. He and the HPoH both know this. Durkon is going to have to think laterally and be sneaky and do the unexpected if he is to regain control. I.e. he will need to be far more chaotic than he has ever been before*. For a dwarf that left a city to get proper entry papers when he became aware of his rule-breaking, that might be even more of a change than taking command for once.

Grey Wolf

*Which is not saying much, but still.

[factotum]

For a dwarf that left a city to get proper entry papers when he became aware of his rule-breaking, that might be even more of a change than taking command for once.


I don't agree that was Durkon being Lawful. That was Durkon being practical--namely, he's just discovered you can be arrested and imprisoned if you don't have entry papers, so he sets out to get some to ensure he won't be arrested or imprisoned while he works out how to help the others. (A Chaotic person might well have done the same thing, only they would probably have stolen the papers from a passerby). Similarly, I see no reason why his Lawful nature would prevent him trying to escape from what he no doubt sees as an unjust imprisonment. (His reasons for doing so in Azure City was because he saw his captors as being on the same side as him--he's hardly going to see Hel and her minions in the same way!).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't agree that was Durkon being Lawful. That was Durkon being practical--namely, he's just discovered you can be arrested and imprisoned if you don't have entry papers, so he sets out to get some to ensure he won't be arrested or imprisoned while he works out how to help the others. (A Chaotic person might well have done the same thing, only they would probably have stolen the papers from a passerby).

I disagree, but I am not particularly interested in trying to change your mind about this particular incident. I continue to state that of the entire order, Durkon is the "most" lawful.


Similarly, I see no reason why his Lawful nature would prevent him trying to escape from what he no doubt sees as an unjust imprisonment. (His reasons for doing so in Azure City was because he saw his captors as being on the same side as him--he's hardly going to see Hel and her minions in the same way!).

Lawful would prevent him from wresting control from Durkula because Durkula has access to his memories, not because of any issue with the evilness of his captor. Lawful is the alignment of tradition, and dependability and predictability. Chaos is the alignment of change, and trying new things and breaking with the old. Durkon is not going to beat Durkula at their little struggle if he keeps to the tried and true, because Durkula will see it coming. That is what I mean when I say that Durkon will need to become more chaotic.

Grey Wolf

[Amphiox]

In addition to any growth he might get fighting Durkula directly from within, he could have additional character growth after being restored.

Assume for example that Durkula doesn't actually last too long, and Durkon gets restored relatively quickly. Will he resent his teammates for falling for Durkula's deception so easily? For not knowing him well enough to tell the difference? (After all, the accent has already slipped several times). Will he be ok with it, but will Roy and co. be wracked with guilt, and Durkon will have to grow as a character in order to counsel them?

Or just the longterm implications of being imprisoned in his own flesh? Does the stickverse have therapists for PTSD?

[Copperdragon]

My reaction so far to this: "Good twist for the story, but... meh, Durkon stays boring and bland". I had hoped for more than just "watch the bad things your body does". Maybe it will come but right now that part of the arc ends with a :smallsigh:

[busterswd]

I don't think the development has happened yet, but there's a great chance for it to happen in the Dwarven lands. Once Durkula reveals he's not Durkon anymore, a lot of secrets people were keeping from Durkon might get exposed. For example, the High Priest is dead, but

OOTPC spoiler
the original prophecy maker is still alive, isn't he? Durkon may learn a lot of things about the people surrounding him that he may not have been intended to find out.

And yeah, having a very literal internal external demon to destroy for a character who tends to be a bit more passive could lead to development as well.

Edit: Oh, and another thing: watching people who are supposed to be your friends giving an undead abomination the same treatment they'd give you merely because it's still casting the healing spells they need can't be good for you mentally. AND on top of that, dwarves are known to have a non-standard belief system based on the afterlife. This could be equivalent to watching your friends abandon your soul to a fate worse than death. Even if it's not something the Order could have helped or known about, Durkon may not be feeling terribly rational if he ever gets free.

[Porthos]

My reaction so far to this: "Good twist for the story, but... meh, Durkon stays boring and bland". I had hoped for more than just "watch the bad things your body does". Maybe it will come but right now that part of the arc ends with a :smallsigh:

The problem is that 'evil is a corrupting disease akin to addiction' and/or 'how will a good person deal with literal evil impulses thrust into them' is just a cliched story as the 'prisoner in their own body' types.

Mostly coming down to personal taste which one finds more appealing.

I understand the concern, but I suspect Rich has things planned to make the story interesting.

[KillianHawkeye]

With any luck, Durkon will get into a decisive battle against his evil alter-ego a la Angel vs Angelus.

[Takver]

I'm not so sure Durkon's spirit has any ability to provide more than a token resistance to the vampire. "He struggles, but cannot resist...He is powerless." How can you hope to defeat an enemy who a) has you absolutely physically restrained and isolated and b) has free access to your mind?

I think the latest update signals clearly that Durkon will be back by the end of the story, but I think it's going to be the Order and friends who have to do the work to learn the truth about the vampire and defeat him.

[Domino Quartz]

I'm not so sure Durkon's spirit has any ability to provide more than a token resistance to the vampire. "He struggles, but cannot resist...He is powerless." How can you hope to defeat an enemy who a) has you absolutely physically restrained and isolated and b) has free access to your mind?

I think the latest update signals clearly that Durkon will be back by the end of the story, but I think it's going to be the Order and friends who have to do the work to learn the truth about the vampire and defeat him.

You're forgetting the rules of drama! HPoH saying stuff like "He is powerless to influence our plans" and "He is of no concern" all but guarantees that Durkon will have a moment of Heroic Willpower and seize control for long enough to have a significant effect.

[Ross_Varn]

Lawful is the alignment of tradition, and dependability and predictability. Chaos is the alignment of change, and trying new things and breaking with the old.

If this was the case, there's be more than one incredibly dead adventurer on the books! I see that you're attempting to justify your own choice of alignment here, but I'm also going to say one thing to deny this line of thinking- O-Chul. Xykon had the lead Lawful Good paladin of a defeated city dead to rights as a captured prisoner of a newly-established regime. According to your definition of Law & Chaos, he should have just bit the bullet and waited for Redcloak or someone to do him in, as being captured was now the Way Things Are, with a one-two punch of New Authority and Prisoner Status. What'd he do instead? Take every opportunity he had to escape, and when deprived of that, to instead punch an evil lich in the face with his fist. Since this method of operating definitely didn't cause him to Fall, I'd say it's proof enough that your idea of this particular alignment is a wee bit warped. Along with, you know, Tarquin, an excellent example of Lawful Evil.

Lawful doesn't mean Complacent. Lawful means respecting authority and your fellow beings, and ceding when necessary to maintain order. Chaotic means holding your own goals over others, and doing whatever it takes to get them done. When somebody violently violates your free will by, say, hijacking your body and using it as a meatpuppet for their own goals, you, as a Lawful individual, have every right to beat their Evil rear into a bloody pulp and then shove it off this mortal coil.

I became incredibly excited to see Durkon still kicking. Him being completely A-Okay with being turned into an undead abomination didn't quite sit right with me. However he comes out of this, it will be excellent in the end, as Durkon's probably my favorite character, and there's no way he's going down without a fight. That fight hasn't come, yet, but when it does... there'll be Hel to pay.

[Gift Jeraff]

What if, after being resurrected or regaining control of his body, Durkon's character development comes in the form of being pissed that Roy didn't listen to Belkar and stake the vampire right away?

[KillianHawkeye]

What if, after being resurrected or regaining control of his body, Durkon's character development comes in the form of being pissed that Roy didn't listen to Belkar and stake the vampire right away?

I'm not sure if he'll be angry at Roy, but it's likely Durkon will hold Roy at least partly responsible for whatever evil deeds that Vampire!Durkon commits because Roy chose not to destroy it immediately.

[Skorj]

... How can you hope to defeat an enemy who a) has you absolutely physically restrained and isolated and b) has free access to your mind?

By talking to him. I suspect the High Priest of Hel has free will, and can make moral choices (simply because, story-wise, that's far more interesting than the approach that a vampire is an evil-doing automaton). That means persuasion is possible. Killing an evil opponent is the easy path, and really how many panels would that take once the OOTS figures it out? But persuading an evil opponent to change his ways? When not written in a shallow and trite way? That's worth reading! That could be the main story arc for a book.

[elros]

The Giant has been planning Durkula since OtOotPC, which means that we will be seeing a lot more of Durkon and his struggle with the High Priest of Hel. I predict that Durkon will interfere with the plan at the last moment, and ultimately it will end in (yet another) heroic sacrifice. After all, Durkon's greatest wish is to "be buried with me family (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0333.html)."
So I don't anticipate resurrection or a traditional happy ending (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HappyEnding) for Durkon. Remember that he was the one who said, "What the heck does happiness have to do wit' bein' a dwarf?? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html)"

[Pigkappa]

I don't think Durkon can influence what the vampire does in any way, unless there is some external intervention. Durkon is dead, really dead, as Roy was after the battle of Azure city. His soul (which they call spirit in the comic) is trapped in the vampiric body instead of being in the right plane lf existence but has no power at all. I would find it a little disappointing if the soul could actively help in solving the problem (unless there's some great reason).

And, he won't be able to talk the vampire out of his plan. You can talk Belkar or some other chaotic dumb evil guy out of something, but we are dealing with an High Priest of Hel who knows Durkon has every reason to be against him. And Durkon has no Charisma and likely no ranks in Bluff and Diplomacy.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I see that you're attempting to justify your own choice of alignment here,

No, I'm not. Also, your explanation with O'Chul completely misses my point, given that O'Chul did exactly what anyone would have expected him do do: endure, until his brute force provided him a way out.

Grey Wolf

[Pigkappa]

The Giant said he expects the plot to last 4 more years. This is roughly 400 comics, that is, two books, that is, in theory two plot arcs (which will be very closely tied I guess, probably more than usual, as the last gate must still be involved with both).

So, I think there is a chance that the next plot arc will be about the events in the dwarven homeland more than on the gate. Durkon is well behind Roy, Elan and Vaarsuvius as long as events focused on him, probably quite behind Haley, and more or less on par with Belkar.

[skim172]

"Character development" is an overused catch-all term for any kind of change to a character - even the changes that do absolutely nothing to contribute to the narrative and story.

In this case, I don't think Durkon's character development is necessary or even relevant. Because his character development ... is that he's dead. Effectively, he is dead. Yes, his soul is imprisoned and unable to resist helping this monster take control of his body and perhaps, he's even aware of what is going on - which must be hell.

So what kind of "character development" are we expecting? What, that Durkon should awaken from this somewhere down the road and be more sympathetic to the undead for having seen the world through their eyes? I think that would derail the story more than anything else - as well as not making any sense. But so many were pushing for that while the fate of Durkon/Darkon (I refuse to say Durkula - it sounds like a cheap vampire-themed porno) was still unknown - that becoming a vampire would, I guess, "teach Durkon a lesson" or something to that effect. Becoming evil or becoming sympathetic to evil isn't character development in itself.

If Durkon ever does reawaken, fully aware of what has been happening in his absence, then he should awaken as a tortured, gibbering, insane wreck, destroyed spiritually and mentally, subjected to an unimaginable hell. Which could be an interesting turn of events, but again, would derail the story immensely if we had to focus on a new plotline following Durkon's psychiatric rehabilitation over years and decades of therapy and treatment instead of the whole "saving the world" thing.

Treat Durkon as if he's dead - he'd be better off if he was.

[jidasfire]

If Durkon ever does reawaken, fully aware of what has been happening in his absence, then he should awaken as a tortured, gibbering, insane wreck, destroyed spiritually and mentally, subjected to an unimaginable hell. Which could be an interesting turn of events, but again, would derail the story immensely if we had to focus on a new plotline following Durkon's psychiatric rehabilitation over years and decades of therapy and treatment instead of the whole "saving the world" thing.


I don't know. Look at Durkon's face in that last panel. He's not sad, he's not scared, he's not in pain. He. Is. Pissed. And I would not be at all surprised if he fights his way out of there tooth and nail, inch by bloody inch.

[factotum]

I continue to state that of the entire order, Durkon is the "most" lawful.
.
.
.
Durkon is not going to beat Durkula at their little struggle if he keeps to the tried and true, because Durkula will see it coming. That is what I mean when I say that Durkon will need to become more chaotic.


I wouldn't disagree with you on that point either, he definitely *is* the most Lawful. As for the second bit, I misunderstood what you meant in your first post--I thought you meant Durkon wouldn't even try to escape because it would mean rebelling against his imprisonment, whereas what you *actually* meant was that his captors will know how he's likely to try and escape and will thus be able to guard against it. I can agree with the latter, but definitely not the former!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I wouldn't disagree with you on that point either, he definitely *is* the most Lawful. As for the second bit, I misunderstood what you meant in your first post--I thought you meant Durkon wouldn't even try to escape because it would mean rebelling against his imprisonment, whereas what you *actually* meant was that his captors will know how he's likely to try and escape and will thus be able to guard against it. I can agree with the latter, but definitely not the former!

My apologies, then, since I did indeed mean the latter. Of course I think Durkon will struggle and attempt to escape. That impulse is neither chaotic nor lawful, neither evil nor good, as far as I can tell. Every character, regardless of alignment, would attempt escape.

My point was in the method to achieve escape. Lawful characters are, by an large, more predictable that chaotic ones, because they are less likely to leave the beaten path (Haley puts it nicely here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html): lawful characters are easy to con, since they don't even realise there is an alternative to following rules). Durkon won't escape the clutches of Durkula in the usual way, because Durkula will see it coming - Durkula has access to all of Durkon's memories, techniques, etc. Durkon has to surprise Durkula, and that will take a shift towards Chaos (slight shift, of course: he won't become Elan - at least I hope so).

Grey Wolf

[AKA_Bait]

I'd like to add that there's also room for some character development even if it is actually impossible for for Durkon to "escape." It might be kind of a downer, but the occasional scenes of him struggling with his bondage and negotiating with the HPH are enough to show some change. It would be a downer, but we might even see what a Durkon utterly defeated and despairing looks like.

[Rakoa]

I'd like to add that there's also room for some character development even if it is actually impossible for for Durkon to "escape." It might be kind of a downer, but the occasional scenes of him struggling with his bondage and negotiating with the HPH are enough to show some change. It would be a downer, but we might even see what a Durkon utterly defeated and despairing looks like.

Wow that makes me sad already. I don't see giving in and despairing as something Durkon would ever do...but that would be character development for ya, eh? :smallwink:

[AKA_Bait]

Wow that makes me sad already. I don't see giving in and despairing as something Durkon would ever do...but that would be character development for ya, eh? :smallwink:

I agree that it would take something really, really extreme to push Durkon to that point. That said, the Giant did at one point say something along the lines of drama happening at the edges of a character's limits. Trapping Durkon behind the eyes of an evil creature as it deceives his friends (and probably worse), turns his people into vampires (seems like a very logical first step), and furthers the goals of Hel under Thor's nose while he is utterly powerless to do anything is a pretty extreme psychological position to put him in.

[Bundin]

The topic title is "Durkon's Character Development". I haven't really seen any since the formation of the party. To me, Durkon has always been a lovable, but uninteresting character. Nothing really interesting happened to him, he was never challenged much. All he did was be lawful and good and calm and composed (unless trees are involved) and that's that.

The current situation is the first major challenge he faces. On the one hand, I am slightly disappointed that there's a second entity that's keeping the 'real' Durkon prisoner. I thought it would be interesting to see where 'old' Durkon would end up when confronted with the effects of vampirism. After all, no race/creature is 'always alignment x', exceptions are possible.

On the other hand, it wouldn't be real development for Durkon if the external force is strong enough to (nearly) completely overpower the old personality. It wouldn't be Durkon adjusting his values and beliefs, but his values being yanked to some extreme and him having to deal with it. That's not really interesting character development.

By keeping Durkon trapped, but still himself, that pitfall has been avoided. And it allows for the option to let him come to terms (or not) with what happened after the vampire-issue is resolved in some way. He is resisting, but we don't know yet if he can see/hear what is going on around formerly his body.

All in all, I'm simply looking forward to what'll happen. Even if he hasn't seen many changes so far, the next challenge definitely is an interesting one :)

[zimmerwald1915]

If Durkon ever does reawaken, fully aware of what has been happening in his absence, then he should awaken as a tortured, gibbering, insane wreck, destroyed spiritually and mentally
We've already had one of those.

[Amphiox]

I'm not so sure Durkon's spirit has any ability to provide more than a token resistance to the vampire. "He struggles, but cannot resist...He is powerless." How can you hope to defeat an enemy who a) has you absolutely physically restrained and isolated and b) has free access to your mind?

I think the latest update signals clearly that Durkon will be back by the end of the story, but I think it's going to be the Order and friends who have to do the work to learn the truth about the vampire and defeat him.

It is Durkula's word only that tells us that Durkon is "powerless" and "cannot resist." Durkula is a villain, and it is a rare villain indeed who does not overestimate his own capacity and underestimate a hero's degree of power.

I think it is 50:50 if not better odds that the mind access goes both ways, that Durkon also has free access to Durkula's mind, and that at the least affords him some power that could be exploitable in the right circumstance.