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Fortinbro
2014-02-19, 12:17 PM
During my last campaign, right before the party fought the bigger bad the big bad flung himself into the far realms rather than letting the party defeat him.

He has since been re-created as a puppet of that realm's over-deity and may make an appearance in the sequel campaign I'm running.

How would you go about combining these two templates?:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Lich

If it can't be done, thoughts on what I should try instead?

Eldan
2014-02-19, 12:42 PM
Why do you need to merge them? Applying both is perfectly legal.

Fortinbro
2014-02-19, 01:00 PM
I guess what I'm wondering is would he suddenly gain a CON score and count as a living outsider?

How would that work for phylactery based resurrection? What about the fact that he has a prestige class and feats which require him to be undead?

Emperor Ing
2014-02-19, 01:09 PM
The template changes your type to Outsider, not Living Outsider. Nothing is preventing the lich from retaining Undead traits. For all intents and purposes he still doesn't have a Con score then.

Debihuman
2014-02-19, 07:42 PM
Yes, the lich loses his Undead status once you apply the Pseudonatural Template as he gains Con +10. He'd just be an Outsider (Extraplanar).

Debby

THEChanger
2014-02-19, 09:08 PM
Yes, the lich loses his Undead status once you apply the Pseudonatural Template as he gains Con +10. He'd just be an Outsider (Extraplanar).

Debby

Query. Is it ever stated that changing Type due to a template causes the monster to lose the traits of their previous Type? I know the SRD section on the subject (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#templates) says-


Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type.

-but it doesn't explicitly say that the old Traits are lost. And since the lich's Con would be - rather than 0, I'm not sure adding 10 to it would do anything. 10+-=?

TuggyNE
2014-02-19, 09:42 PM
Query. Is it ever stated that changing Type due to a template causes the monster to lose the traits of their previous Type? I know the SRD section on the subject (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#templates) says-



-but it doesn't explicitly say that the old Traits are lost. And since the lich's Con would be - rather than 0, I'm not sure adding 10 to it would do anything. 10+-=?

The phrasing implies that you only ever get one set of traits or features at a time; i.e., the "Traits" section is set to Y instead of X and the "Features" section remains at X.

Zaydos
2014-02-19, 09:51 PM
The phrasing implies that you only ever get one set of traits or features at a time; i.e., the "Traits" section is set to Y instead of X and the "Features" section remains at X.

Despite my knee jerk reaction being to disagree checking Fiendish Dire Rat it lacks Low-light Vision (a Trait of animals) but does have Darkvision 60-ft (a Trait of Magical Beasts). So it looks like you're correct.

Debihuman
2014-02-19, 09:55 PM
The phrasing implies that you only ever get one set of traits or features at a time; i.e., the "Traits" section is set to Y instead of X and the "Features" section remains at X.

"A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type." Usually doesn't mean always. You have to follow the template to see how this changes. Note that the Pseudonatural Template adds Con +10 to the base creature. "Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +22, Con +10, Dex +10, Wisdom +10, Intelligence at least 3." That to me, indicates that the creature gains Con +10.

This is why you have to be very careful when adding acquired templates. You have follow the template exactly.

Debby

Amechra
2014-02-19, 10:55 PM
Then cheat!

Apply Pseudonatural, then Lich. If anyone asks about it, bluff heavily.

Kaje
2014-02-19, 10:59 PM
You're the DM. Do what you want.

BornValyrian
2014-02-19, 11:04 PM
Being undead makes his con score "-", not "0". As far as I can tell, you can't increase a "-" score, as the score simply doesn't exist.

Don't know if it helps at all. Sounds like one badass crazy-lich.

Zaydos
2014-02-19, 11:05 PM
As to the OP's problem options:

Allow the augmented undead subtype to let your BBEG keep the stuff requiring undead type.
Make a custom modified Undead Pseudonatural template which is identical except that it only applies to undead, leaves you undead, and grants you +5 hit points per hit die.
Make something more unique to fit your game based on rules of cool/awesome/cosmic horror.

TuggyNE
2014-02-20, 02:10 AM
"A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type." Usually doesn't mean always. You have to follow the template to see how this changes. Note that the Pseudonatural Template adds Con +10 to the base creature. "Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +22, Con +10, Dex +10, Wisdom +10, Intelligence at least 3." That to me, indicates that the creature gains Con +10.

That doesn't negate my point, since Con +10 is not a type trait.

Actually, I suspect the lich's Con would become some arbitrary number upon losing the Undead traits (which includes Con -), probably 10, and from there it would go up by 10.

Debihuman
2014-02-20, 04:01 AM
That doesn't negate my point, since Con +10 is not a type trait.

Actually, I suspect the lich's Con would become some arbitrary number upon losing the Undead traits (which includes Con -), probably 10, and from there it would go up by 10.

No, it goes from Con -- to Con 10 if you follow the template. And yes, you can add Pseudonatural Creature Template to Undead, but that doesn't mean you have to do it in ways that don't follow the template.

Here is the thing, order matters. You cannot add Lich Template to anything that isn't Humanoid so you have to apply Lich Template first. Then you can add the Pseudonatural Creature Template because that can be added to any corporeal creature.

Debby

TuggyNE
2014-02-20, 04:36 AM
No, it goes from Con -- to Con 10 if you follow the template.

Not sure that's guaranteed, but it's really kind of ambiguous that way; it might become Con 0 and then Con 10, it might become Con 10 and then Con 20, or it might become Con (whatever it was) and then Con (whatever it was + 10). I think the second is more likely but I don't think the interaction is actually defined.

What is clear, however, is that the character will definitely have a non-null Con score.

Xuldarinar
2014-02-20, 05:04 AM
In the libris mortus, its said you can apply the lich template to fiends (lichfiends, Libris Mortus pg. 156). I think one could easily take the precedent set there and adjust it. Apply the Pseudonatural template, then apply the lich template with the following adjustment: Damage Reduction 15/byeshk and bludgeoning


Also:
https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20060407a

Debihuman
2014-02-20, 09:33 AM
Both the Good Lich and Lichfiend are VARIANT liches from Libris Mortis The lichfiend is USUALLY a demon or devil (which the base creature is not, even if you apply Pseudonatural Template first) and must have 5 at will spell-like abilities, the craft wondrous item feat and CL 11 or higher. It even lists which creatures are eligible.

The OP doesn't say much about the BBEG in his campaign and we don't know the party level either. As you pointed out, you can always break the rules.

In this case, I was pointing out that the rules didn't even need to be broken to use both templates, which was the original question.

Ultimately, it is the job of the DM to create the villains. If adding lich AFTER pseudonatural fits your campaign, then by all means do so. Note too that the pseudonatural template is EPIC so be sure that fits (it adds significantly to CR between +10 to +16) while turning into a lich only adds CR +2.

Debby

Fortinbro
2014-02-20, 09:47 AM
He would have to be Lich first.

Since a few people have requested more information, here is his article on my wiki. http://gaea-the-legendary-realm.wikia.com/wiki/Nyarlathotep

Xuldarinar
2014-02-20, 10:35 AM
Both the Good Lich and Lichfiend are VARIANT liches from Libris Mortis The lichfiend is USUALLY a demon or devil (which the base creature is not, even if you apply Pseudonatural Template first) and must have 5 at will spell-like abilities, the craft wondrous item feat and CL 11 or higher. It even lists which creatures are eligible.

The OP doesn't say much about the BBEG in his campaign and we don't know the party level either. As you pointed out, you can always break the rules.

In this case, I was pointing out that the rules didn't even need to be broken to use both templates, which was the original question.

Ultimately, it is the job of the DM to create the villains. If adding lich AFTER pseudonatural fits your campaign, then by all means do so. Note too that the pseudonatural template is EPIC so be sure that fits (it adds significantly to CR between +10 to +16) while turning into a lich only adds CR +2.

Debby

Granted, they are variants. I simply was referring to them as potential means of aiding the combination of the two, as normally an outsider is not eligible for the Lich template. Now, yes, it can work the other way around without variants or rule-breaking, but we then have to reconcile the issue with Constitution. Considering that an undead pseudonatural creature would gain 12xHD hp, and any other pseudonatural creature, assuming the outsider type, gains (8+Con Mod)xHD. One way, we have to decide what to do with that pesky Constitution score, the other we have to break (or bend) a rule.

My suggestion for the DR is altering what the LichFiend variant does with the DR. Now, given that warlocks hat draw their power from a bond to Xorat (discussed in Dragon Magazine 332), they may have DR/Byeshk. So I figured, why not make a similar swap in this case?

Im aware that the variant is for fiends, but its not a huge step to extend that to any outsider, making tweaks as necessary. I do note that a psudeonatural creature could qualify if they got one more at-will spell-like ability, and that they were evil aligned. It does say evil outsider, and not Outsider (Evil) after all. But then we are going into semantics, dealing in the difference between evil and (Evil), and that discussion is irrelevant.

Now, given that there is a supposed need to combine the templates and not a discussion on the original post of their compatibility, I am going to assume the base BBEG is not a lich. I don't know if they technically qualify for the template anyways (are they a spellcaster? do they have the needed feat? are they a humanoid?). Given the situation at hand, personally I believe that if there is a need to apply both, and that the BBEG is not already one or the other which it doesn't sound like, using the psudeonatural template before the lich template makes the most sense. Referring to the variant, one could alter it as I suggested or since half-farspawn have DR/Magic, there isn't necessarily a need to alter the lich template at all here. Only the allowance for the template to be applied to something that isn't normally eligible (an outsider) need be necessary.


Edit: Thank you for the additional of information. I have a simple solution then. Apply things in the order of lich, then psudonatural creature, but follow the example of the epic level handbook's atropal? Seeing as they are listed as "Large Undead, Outsider (Evil)", why not make the resulting creature also dual typed?

Edit 2: I love his tainted design. Just wanted to say that.

Amechra
2014-02-20, 10:36 AM
Here's the thing; applying them the other way around (Pseudonatural, then Lich) would remove the issue with Constitution. It would change nothing else mechanically.

Heck, just don't adjust the Constitution, and bam! Same effect.

Debihuman
2014-02-20, 10:39 AM
Has this been statted out yet? Where is the Keeper of Oblivion prestige class from?

Debby

Fortinbro
2014-02-20, 01:11 PM
Has this been statted out yet? Where is the Keeper of Oblivion prestige class from?

Debby

Keeper of Oblivion is from Complete Guide to Liches. I will probably re-stat him out this weekend for those who are curious.

I think I will end up going with what the epic level handbook did for Atropal as a base-guideline. That should actually solve my problems.

Fortinbro
2014-02-24, 09:00 PM
As requested, the stat sheet:

Some explanations - Keeper of Oblivion is from Complete Guide to Liches. Death's Blessing is from one of the Tome of Horrors books. Spell shield is an alternate class feature replacing familiar summoning. These are his stats without buffs up.

Yog-Sothoth is the overdeity of the Far Realms in my campaign setting.

The following house-rule is also in effect to justify why demon/devil lords have so few items in the books:

True full-blooded non-native outsiders and full-blooded dragons and deities cannot have abilities added or have their ability scores, saving throws, skills, or armor class increased by static bonuses from magic items. The exception is that deities and certain powerful outsiders sometimes have specific items created from their essence. These items, if created by an outsider, reform in 99 years if destroyed and appear with their creator. Casting revive outsider on a destroyed outsider will also return their soul item(s) if they are destroyed as well. Outsiders, deities, and dragons can still benefit from spells being cast on them from magic items such as by command word items.



Nyarlathotep, The Harbinger

Level 11 Sorcerer/Level 9 Keeper of Oblivion

Chaotic Evil Male Psuedonatural Evolved Undead Lich (former human)

Size: Medium

Worshipper of Yog Sothoth

STR: 30+10

DEX: 29+9

CON: _

INT: 15+2

WIS: 22+6

CHA: 39+14

AC: 60 (+9 DEX,+35 Natural, +6 armor)

Speed: 60ft

FORT: +6+0 CON = +6

REF: +6+9 DEX =+15

WIS: +13+6 WIS = +19

BAB: +9/ 6 Tentacles +9/+4

Melee: +19/+6 Tentacles +19/+14

Ranged: +18/+13

Ranged:

Tentacles 2d4+10 + improved grab + 2d4 CON drain (no save) each round grabbing

HP: 520

Init: +20

Skills:

Spellcraft: 19 ranks +2 INT +2 Arcana syngery = +23

Knowledge: Arcana: 16 ranks +2 INT =+18

Knowledge: Religion: 16 ranks +2 INT = +18 (+2 on turning checks)

Knowledge: The Planes: 16 ranks +2 INT = +18 (+2 on survival on other planes)

Concentration: 16 ranks +14 CHA = +30

Bluff: 16 ranks + 14 CHA = +30

Sense Motive: 16 ranks +6 WIS+8 racial = +30

Feats:

Investigator (+2 on Gather Information & Search checks)

Spell Focus: Enchantment: +1 on Enchantment Spell DCs

Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment +2 on Enchantment Spell DCs

Death’s Blessing –CHA replaces CON for HP

Multi-Attack

Improved Multi-Attack

Improved Initiative - +4 Init

Improved Spell Like Ability –Mass Obliterate

Quicken Spell Like Ability: Mass Obliterate 3x/day can use it as a quickened action

Undead:

Undead Traits

Evolved Undead:

+2 CHA

Fast Healing 3

+1 Natural Armor

1x/Day Greater Invisibility as a Supernatural Ability

Lich:

+2 INT, WIS, CHA

Paralyzing Touch

Negative Energy Touch

DR: 15/bludgeoning and magic (overwritten by Psuedonatural)

+5 Natural Armor (overwritten by pseudonatural)

Phylactery (In Yog Sothoth’s control in Far Realms)

Immune to cold, electricity, and polymorph

+8 racial bonus to hide, listen, move silently, search, spot, sense motive

Psuedonatural:

Improved Grab

Acid Resistance 40

Spell Resistance: 100

Double Speed

Damage Reduction: 15/Epic

+35 Natural Armor

+22 STR, +10 DEX, +10 WIS, +10 CHA

At will- Blur, shield, dimension door, unhallow

Natural weapons treated as epic and ignore all concealment

Alternate Form: As standard action become writhing mass of tentacles enemies suffer -1 morale penalty attacking.

Class:

Telekinesis 3x/day (up to 2,000 pounds) DC: 44 WILL save or tripped, bull rushed, grappled, or disarmed, or push/pull up to 15 characters up to 200ft.

Spell Shield –Sacrifice spell slot to prevent damage equal to 5x spell level

Aura of Exhaustion –living creatures in 60ft take -6 on STR and DEX and move at half speed, cannot run or charge

Mental Fog – If within 120ft DC 44 WILL save or forget encountering Harbinger , one save every hour for next 12 hours.

Obliterate Mass -30ft burst if hit, DC 46 (+2 ability focus) WILL SAVE or pulled into harbinger’s heart, body ripped apart, and soul cast into the far realms. Successful save deals 10D6. 3x/day

Obliterate-As above but long ranged touch attack, once per day

Gear:

Rod of Greater Maximize (3x/day)

Rod of Greater Quicken (3x/day)

(Soul Item) +1 Eager Warning Gauntlet +7 INIT

(Soul Item) – Bracers of Armor +6

Wealth:

Spell DCS:

24+Spell level

26+ Spell Level if Enchantment

Spells/day

1-10

2-10

3-10

4-10

5-10

6-9

7-8

8-8

9-8

Fax Celestis
2014-02-24, 10:13 PM
No, it goes from Con -- to Con 10 if you follow the template. And yes, you can add Pseudonatural Creature Template to Undead, but that doesn't mean you have to do it in ways that don't follow the template.

Nope.

Ø is not 0.

Ø is the absence of an ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities). Ø + 10 is still Ø. 0 + 10 is 10.

Debihuman
2014-02-25, 07:33 AM
Nope.

Ø is not 0.

Ø is the absence of an ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities). Ø + 10 is still Ø. 0 + 10 is 10.

Depends on whether the creature stops being Undead. An Undead that becomes an Outsider is no longer Undead and thus gains its Con back. An Outsider that becomes an Undead loses its Con obviously. This is WHY it matters which order you apply the templates. A pseudonatural creature that becomes a lich is Undead. However, a lich that becomes a pseudonatural creature becomes an Outsider and is no longer an Undead.


As for the creature: it has racial HD and class HD and you should have those noted as well. Obviously in this case, the Lich is the last template applied.

Debby

Fax Celestis
2014-02-25, 09:25 AM
What, exactly, do you think the augmented subtype is for?

Debihuman
2014-02-25, 12:27 PM
For identifying the original creature. In this case, you add (Augmented Humanoid [Human]). It's a convoluted process no matter which way you cut it.

Debby

Amechra
2014-02-25, 12:53 PM
Wait, what makes you think that changing type to Outsider gives them back their Constitution?

The Undead type explicitly says that you have no Con score; when you lose that type, however, Outsider doesn't say "they have a Con score" as part of its traits. So you don't get it that way.

I mean, you could argue that you get it back implicitly, in which case I point out that D&D is an exception-based ruleset, and as such "implicit" really doesn't mean much in context.

Note that Incarnate Construct explicitly states that they get a Con score after becoming Humanoid; if that was just assumed as part of changing types, would they have mentioned it?

I mean, if you gave an Ooze or Vermin a template that changed their type, would they automatically lose their Int Ø?

I mean, even if that was the case... there isn't a Con score to default to. The template mentions nothing, and an Undead creature lacks a Con score (regardless of the fact that they might have had one in the past, they've had it explicitly removed.)

EDIT: tl;dr: Debihuman, can you quote any rules that actually support your position? I don't mean implicitly, I mean that explicitly state that changing type from Undead or Construct to something that normally has a Con score gives them a Con score.

Fax Celestis
2014-02-25, 02:27 PM
For identifying the original creature. In this case, you add (Augmented Humanoid [Human]). It's a convoluted process no matter which way you cut it.

That is not what it's for.


Augmented Subtype
A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

And per this article (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060725a), once a creature is undead, it stays undead.


Other Creature Types: Creatures with most other types are affected just as humanoids are when class features change their types. Undead creatures require some special handling. The transformation into an undead creature is profound -- so much so that the rules often don't bother with assigning the augmented subtype when creatures become undead (for example, the mummy and the ghoul). Transformation to undeath also is pretty much unalterable unless the creature returns to life (in which case it would regain its old creature type). To reflect the unique state of undeath, apply any class-induced change in type to the creature's original type, even if the creature has not received the augmented subtype for its original type. For example, a ghoul with levels in the monk class begins as an undead (augmented humanoid). When the ghoul becomes a 20th-level monk, it becomes an undead (augmented outsider, native). The ghoul retains all its undead features and traits.

Due to this, the creature would become an Undead (Augmented Outsider) instead of an Outsider (Augmented Undead). Undead (Augmented Outsider) have these traits and features:


Features
An outsider has the following features.


8-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.


Traits
An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).


No Constitution score.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.

Debihuman
2014-02-25, 05:00 PM
The aforementioned article only suggests that adding CLASS levels to Undead keeps them undead. It does not say that adding a TEMPLATE to them wouldn't change it.

Outsider (Extraplanar) is how the Pseudonatural Creature template changes the base creature. If you want to add Augmented Undead subtype that is also legal.


The Pseudonatural Template says this: Abilities Increase from the base creature as follows: Str +22, Con +10, Dex +10, Wisdom +10, Intelligence at least 3.

So your creature gains Con +10. Con -- plus +10 means that the creature now has a Con score. It doesn't say that if the base creature is Undead it doesn't gain Con +10. So there is your explicit rule.

Debby

Tanuki Tales
2014-02-25, 05:20 PM
The Lich in question would be an Outsider (Extraplanar), but would keep Undead traits as they're specifically a special quality, which the template doesn't touch.

Undead traits say the creature lacks a Constitution score, ergo this Lich would not have one.

So no, there is no explicit rule here.

Amechra
2014-02-25, 06:31 PM
So your creature gains Con +10. Con -- plus +10 means that the creature now has a Con score. It doesn't say that if the base creature is Undead it doesn't gain Con +10. So there is your explicit rule.




Con -- plus +10 means that the creature now has a Con score.


Wha? No seriously, that is your argument?

A rough equivalent would be "a Lich doesn't have a bank account, but if you add 10 bucks to his bank account, he has a bank account!"

Con -- means that they don't have a Con score to add that +10 to in the first place. It's like 10 + Belkar; Belkar isn't a number, so adding the number 10 to him does nothing.

At all.

At.

All.

Debihuman
2014-02-25, 07:03 PM
Wha? No seriously, that is your argument?

A rough equivalent would be "a Lich doesn't have a bank account, but if you add 10 bucks to his bank account, he has a bank account!"

Con -- means that they don't have a Con score to add that +10 to in the first place. It's like 10 + Belkar; Belkar isn't a number, so adding the number 10 to him does nothing.

At all.

At.

All.


Because he's not an Undead, he's now an Outsider. If you don't like it, apply the template differently. All I can do is tell you what the template does and that by applying it as per the Template, that's what it does.

No need to get bent over it. If you want it to stay as a lich then apply the lich template AFTER you had applied the preternatural creature template. It gives you EXACTLY what you want. Sheesh. It isn't rocket science.

If you really need to break the rules then by all means do so, but don't act like it that isn't what is being done.

If you want Lich Pseudonatural Creature to stay Undead, then feel free to do so. But at least do so with the understanding that the Template doesn't do that if you follow the template by RAW rather than RAI.

Debby

Amechra
2014-02-25, 07:19 PM
Let me ask you a question:

Where does it state that Outsiders have a Constitution score? As in, that they are required to have a Constitution score? I am legitimately curious.

Xuldarinar
2014-02-25, 07:37 PM
I know people tend to forget it, but does anyone else remember the type pyramid (Savage Species)? Construct, Outsider, and Undead are on the top of this pyramid and unless something explicitly states otherwise, a template cannot change this to another type. It even says "Some types, such as undead, cannot change (with a few, rare exceptions)." Now, I already settled the main issue in the OP (make the resulting creature a Type: Undead, Outsider), but if we go by this book then it is Undead (Extraplanar).

Amechra
2014-02-25, 07:57 PM
I think the type pyramid doesn't apply to 3.5 or later, though. Can't recall where I saw that, though...

Debihuman
2014-02-25, 08:38 PM
Good question. It doesn't explicitly state that they do but all outsiders have them except for those which are Undead Outsiders i.e. as in Zombie outsiders from Libris Mortis. Technically, the issue is of what does adding +10 Con to a creature that was formerly Undead do? I'm taking the position that once an Undead Creature takes the Pseudonatural Creature Template, it stops being an Undead and becomes an Outsider (a position clearly not liked or supported here but I like playing devil's advocate).

Of course, it is possible to add Undead status to an Outsider far more easily. But then it would be just adding the Lich template last which isn't how the OP wanted it to go.

Yes, you can just Rule 0 it as it becomes an Undead (Augmented Outsider) with no Con score but it doesn't follow the Pseudonatural Creature Template as far as using the Template goes. And it doesn't follow the template on more than one level now. Can it be done? Yep. Does it follow the rules however? Not according to the Template but according to some wacky ruleslawyering that says Con Ø can't be changed to Con 10.

Does it matter? It's more of how well does anyone care about RAW vs. RAI. I tend towards RAW as much as possible. And my main reason for this is that most people don't look at the rules and care.

Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep. So yes, that seems to indicate a Con score since you can suffocate them. Plus most all outsiders have Con score in the books other than ones that have Templates that turn them into Undead (See Creatures that Cannot Be article for turning Outsiders into Undead and Libris Mortis).

Making a Zombie Devil is far easier than than making a Medium Male Pseudonatural Lich Sorcerer 9, Keeper of Oblivion 11, worshipper of Yog Sothoth.


It can be done [I]without breaking any rules at all if you apply Lich then Pseudonatural and don't mind an Outsider with Con 10 as your final destination. If you feel the need to break the rules to get an Undead creature as your final destination, then by all means do so but don't pretend that your rules-lawyering isn't breaking how the Template works or what it does.

What do you mean it gains +10 Con because the Template says it does? Really that's the argument here. Con Ø is the sticking point for some people who are stuck that the template adds +10 to Con. As if that were the END OF THE WORLD. It's not. However, it doesn't give them the desired outcome, which is they want the creature to be Undead and not an Outsider. I grok it. But that's not what this does by RAW.

Now you can give me all the rules-lawyering argument that really it should be RAI so that you get Undead (Augmented Outsider) but you can also get that a lot easier by Adding the Lich template last, which is a hell of a lot easier.

Now if we want to follow the history of the OP BBEG, then perhaps going all ruleslawyery to get the desired outcome is indeed the way to go. But the OP was never clear what outcome was desired. He just wanted to know if he could use both templates on a creature. Yes he can.

How he or I or anyone else wants to go proceed is a whole different kettle of fish since there are several ways to tackle this.

Heck I'm game for the Undead (Augmented Outsider) version even though the designer in me is still calling it a "A Creature That Cannot Be." See here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20060407a and this article on applying templates to creatures: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060801a, which is why I took the harder stance that I did.

"If the template changes the creature's type, make the change in type. Add the augmented subtype for the creature's original type to the creature's type entry, along with any other subtypes the template specifies. For example, a lion with the celestial template changes type to magical beast, so it gains the augmented animal subtype along with the magical beast type. The celestial lion also acquires the extraplanar subtype when encountered on the Material Plane."

Also this: "Check the Abilities entry in the template.
Make any changes in the creature's ability scores as specified in this section."

Debby

Tanuki Tales
2014-02-25, 10:09 PM
The Lich in question would be an Outsider (Extraplanar), but would keep Undead traits as they're specifically a special quality, which the template doesn't touch.

Undead traits say the creature lacks a Constitution score, ergo this Lich would not have one.

So no, there is no explicit rule here.

*cough* *cough*

Debihuman
2014-02-25, 10:17 PM
A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

So changing it to Outsider (Extraplanar) means you keep the Undead Features.

Features of the Undead not the Traits are kept.

Undead features are as follows:


12-sided Hit Dice.
Base attack bonus equal to ½ total Hit Dice (as wizard).
Good Will saves.
Skill points equal to (4 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die, if the undead creature has an Intelligence score. However, many undead are mindless and gain no skill points or feats.


You might want to have that cough looked at ;-)

Debby

Tanuki Tales
2014-02-25, 10:26 PM
And you might try looking at what the template actually says. Undead traits are special qualities added to a creature when the Undead type is added. The template specifically says that Special qualities from the base creature aren't changed when its applied.

I really don't see any actual RAW basis for what you're trying to convince us of here Debi.

Debihuman
2014-02-25, 10:37 PM
Okey-dokey here are the Lich's Special Qualities:


Special Qualities
A lich retains all the base creature’s special qualities and gains those described below.

Turn Resistance (Ex): A lich has +4 turn resistance.

Damage Reduction (Su): A lich’s undead body is tough, giving the creature damage reduction 15/bludgeoning and magic. Its natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Where does it say that "Undead Traits" are Special Quality that are kept in the Template? That's not in the Psuedonatural Template at all.


Undead creatures require some special handling. The transformation into an undead creature is profound -- so much so that the rules often don't bother with assigning the augmented subtype when creatures become undead (for example, the mummy and the ghoul). Transformation to undeath also is pretty much unalterable unless the creature returns to life (in which case it would regain its old creature type). To reflect the unique state of undeath, apply any class-induced change in type to the creature's original type, even if the creature has not received the augmented subtype for its original type.

If you add classes to an Undead creature, it keeps its undead status but once you change its Type to Outsider that is no longer a "temporary change." And the Pseudonatural Creature Template changes it's TYPE to Outsider. So the lich becomes Outsider (Augmented Undead, Extraplanar) once you apply the template. Since it was formerly a Humanoid (Human) before that, you could make the claim that that should be added as well but that's a previous layer that the rules haven't addressed.


Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates. Whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature’s type—you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add.

Human to Undead Lich to Pseudonatural Outsider (Augmented Undead) is fine. The templates have NO conflict.

Human to Psueudonatural Outsider to Lich -- Lich can only apply to Humanoid but if you ignore that (via the creatures that cannot be) gives you a wholly different creature i.e. the Undead (Augmented Outsider).

What order are you applying the Templates? I was saying the first application is perfectly legal. To do so the second way requires a breaking of the template--which if that's what you want to do, then by all means go for it.

But if you follow the first, then apply the template exactly as it says and change Con -- to Con 10 because the Pseudonatural template says to do. It adds +10 Con to the base creature.

A lich that gains the pseudonatural creature template becomes an Outsider is no longer Undead. Its Type CHANGES to Outsider and it gains the Augmented Undead subtype. To try to claim otherwise means you aren't following the template.

Also, the Pseudonatural Creature Template in Epic book is different from the one in Complete Arcane. So you also have to note which version of the template you are using. The Epic version is the more powerful version.
The one in Complete Arcane doesn't change the creature's Con score so it would retain the Con --. But the template I referred to was the Epic version.

Debby

Tanuki Tales
2014-02-25, 11:31 PM
Concerning your Constitution restoration nonse: No, it doesn't. You're basically just making that up.

And I was talking about Psuedonatural, not Lich.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wight.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/mummy.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/spectre.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm

Keep looking up Undead and you'll see that "Undead traits" is listed under Special qualities.

Debihuman
2014-02-25, 11:54 PM
If you look at lich, it doesn't say to add Undead traits under Special Qualities. The ghost template doesn't say to add Undead traits to Special Qualities either.

Is that a mistake? Maybe. I'm not in a position to argue what was going in WotC's minds.

You'll note that none of the creatures you mentioned are derived from Templates.

You will also note that an undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

It's not noted in the ghost and lich templates. That could be purposeful. I have no way of knowing.

Debby

Tanuki Tales
2014-02-26, 12:03 AM
If you look at lich, it doesn't say to add Undead traits under Special Qualities. The ghost template doesn't say to add Undead traits to Special Qualities either.

Is that a mistake? Maybe. I'm not in a position to argue what was going in WotC's minds.

You'll note that none of the creatures you mentioned are derived from Templates.

You will also note that an undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

It's not noted in the ghost and lich templates. That could be purposeful. I have no way of knowing.

Debby

It's not a mistake, they just chose for some reason to not post the sample creatures. Luckily, I have a copy of the Monster Manual, and both the sample Ghost and sample Lich has Undead traits under their special qualities.

Debihuman
2014-02-26, 01:04 AM
While the ghoul monk makes a bit of sense (ghoul taking precedence over the class feature of monk), it still doesn't say that it works that way when a creature's Type changes due to the addition of a template.

And this where I stand my ground on saying that the creature still becomes an Outsider and gains a Con score. You are of course free to disagree with me. I would lose Undead traits would add Outsider traits. See here:


Special Qualities
A template may add or remove special qualities. The template description gives the details of any special qualities a template provides, including how to determine saving throw DCs, if applicable. Even if the special qualities entry is missing from a template description, the creature still gains any qualities associated with its new type.


So yes, Ghost and Lich template should add Undead traits. Just as Pseudonatural Template should remove undead traits and add outsider traits as I originally suspected.

This can be found here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm

[EDIT]
That said, suppose you didn't want to remove the undead traits. See here: https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eo/20070401a

Creatures that cannot be makes the case for ignoring the rules and how to apply Templates that don't fit to make interesting, though not technically legal creatures. You'll note the lich nymph druid doesn't have either undead traits or fey traits listed under her special abilities.

Let's say the aforementioned Lich Pseudonatural creature (epic version rather than Complete Arcane version) since the creature keeps its undead status and its d12 HD.

You still have to reconcile the conflicting information. If you fudge the Template you end up with this:

Outsider (Augmented Undead, Extraplanar) with undead traits. [We'll assume Con — for now. BTW, Con Ø is really only used with Modern and Psionic creatures and I prefer the m-dash since it cannot be mistaken for a 0.]

Let's say it keeps these traits:

No Constitution score.
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities.
Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.


Then you are left with only reconciling what doesn't fit from the Pseudonatural Template such as it it gaining +10 Con and the need to breathe and the fact that outsiders normally can't be resurrected but destroyed undead can. The easiest ruling is that destroying a Pseudonatural Lich removes both templates but this is up to the DM.

Since the base creature also had 11 levels of sorcerer and 9 levels of Keeper of Oblivion, you'd have to add all that material in as well.

Debby

Tanuki Tales
2014-02-26, 12:08 PM
And this where I stand my ground on saying that the creature still becomes an Outsider and gains a Con score.

And I'm standing my ground that you're just making this up and don't have any actual, concrete evidence to back it up.

JoseDeburo
2014-02-26, 12:17 PM
I have talked to all my gaming buddies and looked on several different sites. Once a creature becomes an undead it permanently loses its con score. The only way for the undead to get that con score back is by bringing the creature back to life, or if an ability specifically states that it gives an undead a con score. Thus an undead will always be an undead unless one of the previously stated things happens. So you can indeed combine these two templates with no issue and the bad guy remains undead. You just ignore the con bonus.

Debihuman
2014-02-26, 12:33 PM
Once a creature becomes an undead it permanently loses its con score. The only way for the undead to get that con score back is by bringing the creature back to life, or if an ability specifically states that it gives an undead a con score.

The Pseudonatural Creature changes the Base Creature's Type and it becomes an Outsider. If you follow the Template exactly you get this:

Outsider (Augmented Undead, Extraplanar) with outsider traits and it gains Con +10. It is clearly stated that when a creature gains a TEMPLATE, it gains the traits of the NEW Type.


Templates often change a creature’s type, and may change the creature’s size.

If a template changes the base creature’s type, the creature also acquires the augmented subtype unless the template description indicates otherwise. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. Unless a template indicates otherwise, the new creature has the traits of the new type but the features of the original type.

So yes, adding the Template changes the creature significantly. A template can even add life to an undead.

In this case, the template turns an an Undead into an Outsider. Since the Template can be used on ANY corporeal creature, then you have to assume that it can be used on corporeal Undead.

The fact that the base creature become an Outsider and gains +10 Con should be enough of an indication that this is how the Template is supposed to work. Outsiders have a Con score.
The formerly undead lich now is an Outsider with a Con score. It gains +10 Con according to the Template.

Anything else is RAI rather than RAW.

[Edit] The pseudonatural template in Complete Arcane works differently since ALL of the base creature's special qualities are retained according to the template. See page 160 Complete Arcane. Of the two templates, that one does what your buddies say it does. But that's not how the Epic template works. IMO, the one in Complete Arcane is better written and clearer.

Debby

Xuldarinar
2014-02-26, 01:03 PM
I suppose one of the major questions here is, is a constitution score an inherent part of most types, or is it simply that it's absence an inherent part of the undead and construct types?

NosferatuZodd
2014-02-26, 01:07 PM
Siding with Amechra, you can't increase an ability score of - except in special circumstances.


Just because a Construct has a template applied that adds +2 to Int means he gains an int score.


It's the same case here.


It may be a psuedonatural lich, but it still has con -.

(Why are we even applying such RULES RULES RULES on something involving the Far Realms anyway? Just ignore the con and keep it at -)

Xuldarinar
2014-02-26, 01:54 PM
-snip- (Why are we even applying such RULES RULES RULES on something involving the Far Realms anyway? Just ignore the con and keep it at -)

Well, considering this is the far realm we are talking about.. Medium Potato (baked, extrasourcream) is just as valid as anything else.

Debihuman
2014-02-26, 02:38 PM
I suppose one of the major questions here is, is a constitution score an inherent part of most types, or is it simply that it's absence an inherent part of the undead and construct types?

Most creatures have a Constitution score except for Constructs, Deathless (See Eberron Campaign Setting), dead creatures and Undead. Dead creatures are those with Constitution 0 and are considered objects not creatures. Constructs, Deathless and Undead have Con -- (a non ability). hence the difference between a non-ability and a zero in an ability.

Undead were all once living. Constructs were never alive. The problem with most of the Undead creatures is that unless there is a template for them, the DM really doesn't have a clue about the base living creature. The most you get is in the description of the creature that died (see Banshee in MM II as an example).

Anyhow, to get back to your questions: the answers would likely be YES to both. Having a Con score is inherent part to most Types (see above) and its lack is an inherent part of the Undead and Construct types.

A Template that changes a creatures Type can be difficult to negotiate. You can end up with contradictory information.

This is made more difficult because the monster creation rules aren't even codified in one spot. See how often we're citing from various sources and various parts of the SRD.

The monster rules changed a LOT from 3.0 to 3.5. There is a lot of official errata for monsters for that reason. Some can be found in the 3.5 update but also many books have their own errata. You can find this on the WotC website in their archives.

To compound all this, WotC's horrible proofreading and editing means there are a migraine's worth of mistakes in the books. The Rules Compendium clears some of it up, but WotC sometimes just wrote articles on how things are supposed to work. Their archives are a terrific resource for monster creation but you have a lot to wade through. See archives here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archives

This is why people looking for information have disagreeing views. I get where the hierarchy of Types came from (Savage Species) but like the Epic level book it suffered from really bad editing and proofreading not to mention it uses 3.0 rules instead of 3.5.

One of the reasons 3.5 monster design is so difficult is that the books that needed to be updated to 3.5 weren't because of 4th ed. It's frustrating at best.

Even with the information, it's a lot to process. I'm primarily a monster designer and I am also fairly conservative in how I go about it. I tend to be a stickler for following the rules as exactly as possible because I want the best possible design for any monster.

And while I can appreciate breaking the rules, most people don't think about any unintended consequences. So your Pseudonatural Lich is undead instead of being an Outsider. What happens when it is destroyed and a NPC (Or even a PC) tries to resurrect it? Destroyed Undead can be resurrected but they lose their Undead Template. Does this also remove the Pseudonatural Template? Note that Outsiders cannot be resurrected at all so this can have unforeseen consequences.

Ultimately, people will create the kind of creature that suits them best. For some it will be an Undead. For others, it will be an Outsider. But for anyone who wants to learn how to design monsters, it helps to know when and where to break the rules and to even be aware of what the rules are.

And this just annoys me:

And I'm standing my ground that you're just making this up and don't have any actual, concrete evidence to back it up.

The Template says the creature becomes a Outsider and gains +10 Con.
See Template here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/pseudonaturalCreature.htm


Debby

Tanuki Tales
2014-02-26, 03:35 PM
Ignoring for a second this nonsense debate over this creature having a Con score, it most certainly would be an Outsider.

Outsider, Construct and Undead are on the same level of the type pyramid, so none of them take precedent over the other. And the application of templates leaves the type determined by the last template.

There can be an argument this should be Undead (extraplanar) for common sense sake, but there's little RAW to support it.

Edit:

Yeah, Debi, you can keep pointing at something I've already read, but you're still wrong.

NosferatuZodd
2014-02-27, 11:19 AM
Tanuki Tales is right, when you "gain a bonus to your constitution score"

guess what happens if you DON'T have one?

It does nothing.


Going by official DND stuff anyway, whenever they needed a CON for undead they just used their CHA score.

Debihuman
2014-02-27, 12:30 PM
You didn't have one; now you have one. You used to have Con -- but now you have add +10 to your Con, which is Con 10. If you were still Undead, then that bonus couldn't be added since Undead have no con score but Outsiders don't have that rule. The creature is no longer Undead.

This is the problem with the Template. It can be added to ANY corporeal creature. Adding it to Undead means that they aren't Undead any more.

Debby

Tanuki Tales
2014-02-27, 12:40 PM
You didn't have one; now you have one. You used to have Con -- but now you have add +10 to your Con, which is Con 10. If you were still Undead, then that bonus couldn't be added since Undead have no con score but Outsiders don't have that rule. The creature is no longer Undead.

Debby

There is no rule precedence for this. You can rule that way if you want, at your table, but that's you making it up.

Debihuman
2014-02-28, 04:22 AM
You only need to follow the template. What other rule do you need?

Debby

Tanuki Tales
2014-02-28, 09:42 AM
You only need to follow the template. What other rule do you need?

Debby

Templates don't work that way. You're literally making things up and trying to say it's RAW.

-+10 =/= 10.

Debihuman
2014-02-28, 11:26 AM
Templates don't work that way. You're literally making things up and trying to say it's RAW.

-+10 =/= 10.

The Epic Level Handbook was published (July 2003) AFTER the Savage Species book (Feb. 2003) so if it were accepted that Undead and Constructs can't become Outsiders, then the Pseudonatural Creature Template should only apply to LIVING corporeal creatures, but it does not. So somewhere along the way WotC superseded that rule or neglected it. I don't know if it was purposeful or an error.

By the most recent RAW, you can apply the the Pseudonatural Template to a Lich. The question then becomes how to do it.

Since the Template says that the base creature gains +10 Con, then that is what the template says to do. I'm not "interpreting" the rules here, I'm following them. You are one who says that Con — can't be changed.

Even Savage Species has an example of a ghost barghest with a constitution score on pg. 144. Granted, it's not the best example since it's clear that ghost template can't be added to Outsiders, but if that creature can have a constitution score, I really can't see why the Pseudonatural Lich couldn't have one as well.

Clearly it doesn't HAVE to. You are more than free to offer your own interpretation of how this thing should look. But you haven't bothered. All you are intent on doing is putting down what I and others are doing because you don't like how we are doing it.

Moreover, I really fail to see how this version of Pseudonatural Ghoul is any better. Here is what it looks like without a Con score. Seriously dude, this isn't rocket science here. We're just having fun with the templates.

In this version of the monster it keeps its undead traits and has no Con score.

Pseudonatural Ghoul
Medium Outsider (Augmented Undead, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 2d12 (24 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 47 (+2 Dex, +35 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 45
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+13
Attack: Bite +28 melee (1d6+12 plus paralysis) or tentacle rake + 28 melee (2d8+12)
Full Attack: Bite +28 melee (1d6+12 plus paralysis) and 2 claws +23 melee (1d3 +6 plus paralysis) or 2 tentacle rakes +28 melee (2d8+12)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Ghoul fever, improved grab, paralysis, rotting constriction, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Alternate form, constant insight, damage reduction 5/epic, darkvision 60 ft., resistance to acid and electricity 15, spell resistance 10, undead traits, +2 turn resistance
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +5
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 25, Con —, Int 13, Wis 24, Cha 12
Skills: Balance +6, Climb +5, Hide +6, Jump +5, Move Silently +6, Spot +7
Feats: Multiattack
Environment: Far Realms
Organization: Solitary, gang (2-4), or pack (7-12)
Challenge Rating: 17
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: 3 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: —

Pseudonatural ghouls speak the languages they spoke in life (usually Common).

Combat

Pseudonatural ghouls try to attack with surprise whenever possible. They strike from behind tombstones and burst from shallow graves.

Alternate Form (Su): At will, a pseudonatural creature can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass (or another appropriately gruesome form), but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against pseudonatural creatures in this alternate form.

Constant Insight (Su): The creature makes all its attacks with a +15 insight bonus. The creature is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target.

Ghoul Fever (Su): Disease—bite, Fortitude DC 12, incubation period 1 day, damage 1d3 Con and 1d3 Dex. The save DC is Charisma-based.
An afflicted humanoid who dies of ghoul fever rises as a ghoul at the next midnight. A humanoid who becomes a ghoul in this way retains none of the abilities it possessed in life. It is not under the control of any other ghouls, but it hungers for the flesh of the living and behaves like a normal ghoul in all respects. A humanoid of 4 Hit Dice or more rises as a ghast, not a ghoul.

Improved Grab (Ex): If the creature hits an opponent smaller than it with a tentacle, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Paralysis (Ex): Those hit by a ghoul’s bite or claw attack must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 1d4+1 rounds. Elves have immunity to this paralysis. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Rotting Constriction (Ex): Once the creature has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check it makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, the creature regains 10 lost hit points.

Spell-Like Abilities (Sp): At will—blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow. Caster level 20th. The DCs are Charisma-based.

RedWarlock
2014-02-28, 02:08 PM
The Epic Level Handbook was published (July 2003) AFTER the Savage Species book (Feb. 2003)
No, mine says first printing July 2002..

Debi, my biggest point of contention is that you keep insisting that a score of Ø withy +10 equals 10. Why does Ø equal 0? Where do you get that equivalency? What if Ø equaled 10, since Ø has neutral effect on numbers that would otherwise benefit from con, just like a 10/+0?

Please use clear rules to establish that Ø equals 0 and not 10.

Xuldarinar
2014-02-28, 03:23 PM
No, mine says first printing July 2002..

Debi, my biggest point of contention is that you keep insisting that a score of Ø withy +10 equals 10. Why does Ø equal 0? Where do you get that equivalency? What if Ø equaled 10, since Ø has neutral effect on numbers that would otherwise benefit from con, just like a 10/+0?

Please use clear rules to establish that Ø equals 0 and not 10.

Argument that - = 10: Both values have the same modifier.
Argument that - = 0: Both values represent nothing.

Argument that - ≠ 0 or 10: It is like with divine ranks. Not having a divine rank is different from being divine rank 0. Every character in 3.5, with few exceptions, has effectively divine rank -, sanity -, corruption -, depravity -, taint -, and comeliness -. Unless they are a spellcaster, all levels of spell slots for them are - and not 0. Unless a feat, class, or racial trait says otherwise, they have power point pool of - and and essentia pool of -.

Interestingly enough, the argument for - not being equal to 0 is the strongest argument for if you add anything to it that - is effectively 0. Lets say you have - power points, then from some source you acquire +2 power points. Power points become a valid statistic as far as your character is concerned, and you now have 2 power points. Same goes for essentia, same goes for corruption and depravity/taint. If you do not possess a statistic, and you gain a bonus to it, it generally becomes a valid statistic. No longer possessing the undead type, they no longer have anything specifically saying they cannot have a constitution score, though if the template changed their type and and didn't apply a modifier you could argue they remain at constitution -. This issue rarely comes up, but thats because most templates specifically refer to types in terms of what is valid or specify living so that they are not valid.

Debihuman
2014-02-28, 04:28 PM
No, mine says first printing July 2002..

Hmm. Lemme go back and look again. I could have sworn it was a 3 but it could have been a 2 and I'm just blind as a bat....


Debi, my biggest point of contention is that you keep insisting that a score of Ø withy +10 equals 10. Why does Ø equal 0? Where do you get that equivalency? What if Ø equaled 10, since Ø has neutral effect on numbers that would otherwise benefit from con, just like a 10/+0?

Please use clear rules to establish that Ø equals 0 and not 10.

The ONLY rule that I am applying is what the template says. It says to add +10. So unless you can figure out a better way to add +10 to Con--, then please enlighten me.

Since we're starting from a null number you have several options: +10 to Con Ø has no effect on Con whatsoever and the Pseudonatural ghoul keeps its original Con score (viable but doesn't add +10 to Con); +10 to Con Ø simply gives you Con 10 since a nonability has no score; +10 to Con Ø effectively gives you Con 20 since Con Ø has effective modifier of +0 which is the same as if it already had Con 10; Roll 3d6 for Con and add +10 (which by averages gives you Con 20).

By far, the KISS principle is to change Ø to +10. There are no actual rules on how this applies. If anything, I just said I was following the letter of the template to the best of my ability since that's the only thing the rules say to do: Follow the template.

Debby

NosferatuZodd
2014-02-28, 04:52 PM
You CAN'T add to a non-existent score because IT'S NOT EVEN THERE.


All you need to do is ignore the +10, not try to jump through hoops and claim there's RAW for this when there isn't. Non-existence doesn't equal 0 or 10.

Xuldarinar
2014-02-28, 05:39 PM
You CAN'T add to a non-existent score because IT'S NOT EVEN THERE.


All you need to do is ignore the +10, not try to jump through hoops and claim there's RAW for this when there isn't. Non-existence doesn't equal 0 or 10.

Please provide RAW that says you cannot apply a bonus to a non-ability, that says that - cannot later become a number.

Fax Celestis
2014-02-28, 06:04 PM
By far, the KISS principle is to change Ø to +10. There are no actual rules on how this applies. If anything, I just said I was following the letter of the template to the best of my ability since that's the only thing the rules say to do: Follow the template.

So what happens then if a zombie puts on an amulet of health +2? Does he gain a Con score of 2? Does he take a penalty to his HP equal to 4*HD (because his Con mod went from +0 to -4)? Does his Fort save drop 4 points?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empty_set

A nonability is not 0, it is the absence of an ability. 0 indicates a score is present but is so weak that it is not worth mentioning (and inflicts a penalty on the creature in question, ranging between paralysis, coma, and death).

In fact, if you posit that Ø is the same a 0, then please explain to me how creatures that lack Int scores (say, due to being mindless) aren't constantly in a coma? After all (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss):


Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.

Or hey! Our ghoul in question? Dead. Not undead, dead.


Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.

Which, by the way, undead creatures are not immune to. They're immune to death effects (you know, things with the [Death] descriptor), but not actually being dead.

Debihuman
2014-02-28, 07:47 PM
So what happens then if a zombie puts on an amulet of health +2? Does he gain a Con score of 2? Does he take a penalty to his HP equal to 4*HD (because his Con mod went from +0 to -4)? Does his Fort save drop 4 points?

No, because a zombie is still UNDEAD whereas the pseudonatural lich is an OUTSIDER and isn't an Undead creature at all. Outsiders can gain a health score so yes, if the pseudonatural lich put on an amulet of health, it would gain +2 health. Undead by definition have No Constitution. That is a trait of Undead. When a creature gains a New Type it also gains those traits and loses the traits that it originally had.

Now if you want to say that the Undead traits should trump the Outsider traits, you'd have a reasonable argument. That is the argument for saying you cannot apply the Pseudonatural Creature template on any Undead creature. If WotC hadn't written such shoddy material, the Template would say it can be used on any living corporeal creature but that's not what it says.


A nonability is not 0, it is the absence of an ability. 0 indicates a score is present but is so weak that it is not worth mentioning (and inflicts a penalty on the creature in question, ranging between paralysis, coma, and death).

A living creature with Con 0 is dead and is an object and not a creature at all. If you raise it, it becomes a living creature again.


In fact, if you posit that Ø is the same a 0, then please explain to me how creatures that lack Int scores (say, due to being mindless) aren't constantly in a coma? After all (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#abilityScoreLoss):

Int 0 and Int Ø are not the same. However, I said that for the purpose of applying the template you add +10 to the creature's Con. If you want to treat Con Ø as the equivalent of 10 for that purpose, you could do that too since it has the same save bonus. The creature gains 10 points of Con because the Template says it does. How you want to apply those points is up to you. If you say that Con Ø is immutable and can't be changed by the addition of a template you can say that as well, but then you aren't following the Template as written.

A mindless creature that gains +10 Intelligence due to gaining a Template isn't going to make people nearly as incensed. It simply stops being mindless and becomes an Intelligent creature. Thats how the awaken spells work.

An Undead creature that changes to an Outsider because it gained pseudonatural creature template effectively gets a free pass at becoming a living creature again.

An Undead creature that is destroyed and the raised also becomes a living creature again and loses its Undead Type and regains whatever Type it had before it turned Undead. Ghouls become Humanoids with up to 4 HD for example.

I said that for purposes of the TEMPLATE which changed the creature's type from Undead to Outsider, that Con Ø becomes the equivalent of Con 0 for the express purpose of following the template which says to ADD +10 to the base creature.

The Lifespark Template is a way to give Mindless Constructs new mental stats. It's easier to follow because the instructions are clearer: Replace the base creature’s Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores with new ones between 3 and 18.

The pseudonatural creature template is badly written. it is open to interpretation (no kidding).

Here are a list of choices:

1. You can't apply the Pseudonatural Creature because Undead creatures can't gain templates that change their type. [Perfectly acceptable but fails the rule of cool]

2. You apply the template but the creature keeps its original undead traits and still has Con Ø. [acceptable but then it's a less exact following of the Template as it is written since you aren't following all the steps]

3. You apply the template verbatim (you give it 10 points of Con as the Template dictates). The creature has Con 10 and outsider traits. [KISS principle. This is a strictly addition formula +10 Con is Con 10. Effectively you erase the Con Ø and add 10 points of Con. Mathematically speaking Con Ø + 10 Con = 10 Con. It's not rocket science here].

4. You apply the template treating Con Ø as Con 10 because that would be the average of 3d6 and then add +10 Con. [Not as exact and more complicated but still perfectly possible].

All four are valid points of view; #3 follows the template more closely as the template is written, which is all I ever said it was.

Debby

Tanuki Tales
2014-02-28, 11:05 PM
I'm arguing with a brick wall here. I'm going to leave you fine folks to believe whatever you want, debate it further however you want and I wish you all of the gods speed in your future endeavors.

Doxkid
2014-03-01, 02:29 AM
I understand Debbie completely. It's a houserule, and possibly a logical one, but I understand him.

Anyway we have eight or nine people agreeing against Debbi's point of view and backing their opinions up with more than rhetoric. Pretty sure this case is closed.

TuggyNE
2014-03-01, 03:34 AM
I understand Debbie completely. It's a houserule, and possibly a logical one, but I understand him.

Anyway we have eight or nine people agreeing against Debbi's point of view and backing their opinions up with more than rhetoric. Pretty sure this case is closed.

For what little my opinion may be worth, I maintain that Debi's reading of the rules is substantially accurate, due to the loss of the Undead type and the resulting loss of the Con nonability trait.

The only reason I haven't kept posting is because no new arguments against that have developed; I have said my piece, and consider it sufficient in a RAW debate.

peacenlove
2014-03-01, 04:38 AM
Shouldn't the resulting creature have the constitution score of the pre-lich humanoid +10?
Since you usually need 11 class levels in order to become one, that means you have the elite array to work with (8-15 + any modifiers due to race or levels). That would be your constitution pre template IMHO.

TuggyNE
2014-03-01, 05:15 AM
Shouldn't the resulting creature have the constitution score of the pre-lich humanoid +10?
Since you usually need 11 class levels in order to become one, that means you have the elite array to work with (8-15 + any modifiers due to race or levels). That would be your constitution pre template IMHO.

That's a reasonably sensible ruling, although it's not entirely clear if the previous Con score is, as it were, remembered.

Debihuman
2014-03-01, 09:53 AM
I'm arguing with a brick wall here. I'm going to leave you fine folks to believe whatever you want, debate it further however you want and I wish you all of the gods speed in your future endeavors.


Shouldn't the resulting creature have the constitution score of the pre-lich humanoid +10?
Since you usually need 11 class levels in order to become one, that means you have the elite array to work with (8-15 + any modifiers due to race or levels). That would be your constitution pre template IMHO.

It still has the Lich template which would have to be removed to gain back its original Con score. Theoretically, you could kill it and then resurrect it and then it would come back as the Humanoid it was before the Lich template was added. This assumes that death removes both templates. Having it come back with the pseudonatural template is still a distinct possibility (and it would depend on the DM).

Stacking templates gets weird and tricky. Still it can be a lot of fun. I may post some more pseudonatural undead creatures.
Debby

peacenlove
2014-03-01, 02:02 PM
That's a reasonably sensible ruling, although it's not entirely clear if the previous Con score is, as it were, remembered.

Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) and its greater brother can bring back a person to life who had become an undead creature and later destroyed. The creature keeps its old constitution (if explicitly not lowered by the spell) stemming from the same assumption that a dead creature (a constitution-less object) keeps its constitution score when returned to life.
So the undead creature still has this information, if it came from a method that creates undead (such as ghoul bite, lichdom or vampirism) even if it would lose all its other abilities.
For example bob the 20th level fighter, turned into an ordinary ghoul and then resurrected would be the same bob, minus any spell adjustments.

My point is, why this information is used when the creature is resurrected only, and not on other aspects of the game, where it is needed.

TuggyNE
2014-03-01, 07:44 PM
Resurrection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) and its greater brother can bring back a person to life who had become an undead creature and later destroyed. The creature keeps its old constitution (if explicitly not lowered by the spell) stemming from the same assumption that a dead creature (a constitution-less object) keeps its constitution score when returned to life.
So the undead creature still has this information, if it came from a method that creates undead (such as ghoul bite, lichdom or vampirism) even if it would lose all its other abilities.
For example bob the 20th level fighter, turned into an ordinary ghoul and then resurrected would be the same bob, minus any spell adjustments.

My point is, why this information is used when the creature is resurrected only, and not on other aspects of the game, where it is needed.

Because resurrection is magic. :smalltongue:

More precisely, we know from RAW that (true) resurrection can restore Con to what it was. We do not know from RAW that this is always the case for any hypothetical means of turning an undead creature back into the living creature it used to be, and still less that this is always the case for any hypothetical means of turning an undead creature into a somewhat different living version of itself. It is reasonable to extend the principle, but not required by the rules.

Debihuman
2014-03-03, 02:19 AM
For example Bob
Bad example. Ghouls are limited to 4 HD and a ghoul has to be destroyed first and then can be resurrected. Bob is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of prepared spells. However, the subject loses one level, or 2 points of Constitution if the subject was 1st level.

So Bob the 4th level fighter, turned into an ordinary ghoul is destroyed and then resurrected, would be Bob the 3rd level fighter.


My point is, why this information is used when the creature is resurrected only, and not on other aspects of the game, where it is needed.

Because most DMs don't have a human Bob's stats made in advance :-)

Debby