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lvl0Dmdave
2014-02-19, 12:35 PM
So i just recently started to Dm a 3.5 campaign. I have played a few games of 3.5 as a player and decided to give a try at being a dm and i can tell already i love it a lot more. Due to the creative aspect as well as the supreme control over the game.
Now my campaign has been going relatively smooth so far up until now. (please note i am not really following any game lore in particular.) So my players had stumbled upon a magical lock box and after searching for a way to break the seal on it they opened it thinking they would get some nice loot only to be sucked into another plane for the box was used as a entrance to a dark plane. Inside the plane they found a dark elf were she explained to them that her body is being held prisoner some were in the normal world. and that she will reward them if they rescue her. but they all don't want to help her due to the group consisting of a elf, half elf, two dwarf's. Non of which are found of elf's (dwarf stand point) and dark elf's (the elf's stand point). Now my campaign is kinda wrapped around the dark elf due to her actually being the main villain in the world and i was going to trick them into freeing her from her prison. So my question is how should i get them to want to pursue the dark elf. or should i just drop it all together and find a new story for them to follow?
Any help would be nice and feed back on my story. :)

Jay R
2014-02-19, 01:10 PM
Your problem is that you think you have "supreme control over the game." You don't. You only have supreme control over the setting.

And you've just bumped into the difference. The players can certainly affect the game, and they just did.

Now, they don't want to follow the dark elf's plot. That doesn't mean that that plot doesn't exist, or won't affect them. It means that you need to find something else for them to do until one of the following happens:
A. Somebody else frees the dark elf, who then becomes the party's recurring nemesis.
B. Because the dark elf is gone, somebody else becomes the main villain.
C. Because the dark elf is gone, there is something they can do now that she would have prevented.

You wrote yourself into a corner by pretending they had an option when you didn't really have one ready. But they chose not to take the quest hook, and to go somewhere else instead. So now you have to invent a somewhere else.

[But don't forget the elf. *Some* body's going to free her, and now she knows the party and has a reason to want revenge against them.]

Red Fel
2014-02-19, 01:12 PM
So my question is how should i get them to want to pursue the dark elf. or should i just drop it all together and find a new story for them to follow?
Any help would be nice and feed back on my story. :)

Short version? A hard lesson for any new DM to learn is that the PCs have agency. It's not just your story - it's also theirs. As a result, occasionally, the players will decide to go in a direction you, as DM, didn't expect - or, in some cases, didn't want.

You have to decide whether you're going to be the kind of DM who says, "No, this campaign has a plot and you guys need to adhere to it," or if you're going to be the kind who learns to roll with it. The advantage of the former is that your campaigns will tend to be fairly well-structured, the players will know what to expect and will prepare for precisely what you've got. No surprises, smooth sailing. The advantage of the latter is that players will have the opportunity to truly immerse themselves in your world, by taking the actions they feel are right, instead of the ones you prescribe. It will make things trickier for you, but far more satisfying for your players.

Note that there are some players who don't do well in a sandbox; they may need more of a railroad-style plot to keep them involved. Note also that the railroading DM is not a popular archetype, to put it charitably.

Where the heck am I going with this, anyway? Oh, right. If your players have no interest in helping a damsel in distress, you have several options.

Option the first is to let them do what they want. They're elves and dwarves; they don't like her, and feel no compulsion to help her. Fine. Let them do something else. Cook up some plot hooks while they go wandering around looking for stuff to kill.

Option the second is alignment guilt. I'm going to assume your party is Good, and that this dark elf hasn't done anything Evil (apart from being a member of a Usually Evil race). She's in trouble and reached out to them for help. A typical Good response, although not a mandatory one, is to rescue someone in distress; you could remind them of this and see if it goads any of them to step up and be heroes. Note that this is a sort of passive-aggressive railroading, more along the lines of begging the players to play along than actually railroading them, so it might not win you many fans.

Option the third is the more direct approach - force them. All aboard the railroad. Since I'm not a fan of this approach, I can't advise you how to do it effectively.

My advice is simply to let the players go where they want with this. Keep Miss Dark Elf in Distress on the shelf, perhaps turn her into a BBEG later, but don't force them. If you built your plot around them seeking her out, either find a new trigger for the plot or rewrite the plot altogether. The players don't know the plot, since you haven't revealed it yet, so you still have time to change things. If you do rewrite the plot, take the tendencies of the players into consideration - you know they won't help a dark elf, so what would get their attention?

ElenionAncalima
2014-02-19, 01:23 PM
Your problem is that you think you have "supreme control over the game." You don't. You only have supreme control over the setting.

And you've just bumped into the difference. The players can certainly affect the game, and they just did.

Now, they don't want to follow the dark elf's plot. That doesn't mean that that plot doesn't exist, or won't affect them. It means that you need to find something else for them to do until one of the following happens:
A. Somebody else frees the dark elf, who then becomes the party's recurring nemesis.
B. Because the dark elf is gone, somebody else becomes the main villain.
C. Because the dark elf is gone, there is something they can do now that she would have prevented.

You wrote yourself into a corner by pretending they had an option when you didn't really have one ready. But they chose not to take the quest hook, and to go somewhere else instead. So now you have to invent a somewhere else.

[But don't forget the elf. *Some* body's going to free her, and now she knows the party and has a reason to want revenge against them.]

I second all of this.

I particularly like the idea of someone else freeing her. You still get your big bad...and now she has a built in rivarly with the players. She clearly thinks of herself as a manipulator, but they saw through her. She isn't going to want people like that in her way.

Also, some advice for future plot hooks. Plans are always going to be dependent on your players...but in particular, plans that rely on players falling for something are highly unreliable. You run the risk of your players passing their sense motive rolls, seeing through your poker face as DM or just being paranoid in general.

Also, its worth noting that while this may not have been your plan...don't look at it as a derailment...look at it as an opportunity. Its a great feeling as a player when you get to say the words, "I knew it!". You can now play with those suspicions. Perhaps have other people fall for the dark elf's tricks...the party will love it when they finally get to prove she's evil and take her down.

veti
2014-02-19, 03:37 PM
What Jay R said.

But one more detail. You said you're "not really following any game lore in particular". So how did everyone decide that elves hate dark elves, and dwarves hate all elves regardless of subrace?

Clearly, there is a lot of game lore that's come into your campaign from somewhere. I recommend you need to be a lot more aware of it, which probably means writing a lot more of it (history, culture etc.) down. You don't have to share it all with the players at once, but you will need it sooner or later, and it's better to have it consistent from early on.

Gavran
2014-02-19, 04:23 PM
What Jay R said.

But one more detail. You said you're "not really following any game lore in particular". So how did everyone decide that elves hate dark elves, and dwarves hate all elves regardless of subrace?

Clearly, there is a lot of game lore that's come into your campaign from somewhere. I recommend you need to be a lot more aware of it, which probably means writing a lot more of it (history, culture etc.) down. You don't have to share it all with the players at once, but you will need it sooner or later, and it's better to have it consistent from early on.

In my experience elf-hating dwarves are a vehicle for player opinions, completely unrelated to the setting. You have a point about the elf vs dark elf antipathy though.

Also, obligatory reminder that there are players who prefer a more rail-road-y game and expression that people on this forum are far too much "don't you dare play in the way I don't like" and not enough "play the way your players want to."

I think most really do mean the latter, but the former gets said way more often. :c

jedipotter
2014-02-19, 06:29 PM
Due to the creative aspect as well as the supreme control over the game.
So my question is how should i get them to want to pursue the dark elf. or should i just drop it all together and find a new story for them to follow?
Any help would be nice and feed back on my story. :)

I'm on the other side from everyone, as always. You do, as DM, have supreme control over the game.

You set up a bit of a story and plot. And the players say 'na'. So the advice is to drop it and do something else? Um, no. That is not good advice. What if the players don't like #2, or #3 or #4 and so on? Do you just keep on putting things out there and having the players shoot them down? If you do, that is silly.

Sure you don't want to 'force' the players to play the game....but the reality is that most players won't play unless they have ''encouragment''(aka force).

And this is where the supreme control over the game comes in. You can make anything, anything, anything. For example, it is easy to tempt the characters. Offer them whatever they want, to get them to free the dark elf. She might suddenly have 'anything' they wanted. Something they want so bad, they will be willing to help.

Or you can give the characters a curse.....something like the always get stuck in the box or some such. How do they break the curse? Free the dark elf, of course.

You can even toss in another trapped good elf...that hires the characters to help 'relock up' the dark elf......except, of course, it is the dark elf all along. Or you could have the good elf for real too....

Troacctid
2014-02-19, 08:04 PM
You set up a bit of a story and plot. And the players say 'na'. So the advice is to drop it and do something else? Um, no. That is not good advice. What if the players don't like #2, or #3 or #4 and so on? Do you just keep on putting things out there and having the players shoot them down? If you do, that is silly.

I'd totally drop it and do something else. If they repeatedly reject my plot hooks, it's a sign that they're not interested in having an overarching plot. At that point I'd be giving them episodic encounters and sidequests instead. Nothing wrong with that.

HammeredWharf
2014-02-20, 06:36 AM
Roll with the punches. So, they encountered an elf and decided to ignore her? Someone may call that a failed plot hook, but I call it foreshadowing! Now she'll get freed by someone else and bully the players later on! Oh, they decided to go north instead of south? So did your dungeon, except it's full of snow instead of sand! Did they kill the NPC who was supposed to be their main quest giver? Turns out his achnemesis is very pleased and will offer them some quests! Maybe even the same quests, because hey, they won't find out!

Of course, radically altering the course of your campaign as a result of player agency is good and highly recommended, but quick and dirty fixes like these can move your campaign along when the players' decisions are minor. Now you've got a villain they hate without her doing anything, so all is good.

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-02-20, 07:07 AM
I second all of this.

I particularly like the idea of someone else freeing her. You still get your big bad...and now she has a built in rivarly with the players. She clearly thinks of herself as a manipulator, but they saw through her. She isn't going to want people like that in her way.

And potentially another group in the mix, either for the Dark Elf to control (maybe she can get them home, or has promised them riches and power), or to be rivals against the players.



Also, some advice for future plot hooks. Plans are always going to be dependent on your players...but in particular, plans that rely on players falling for something are highly unreliable. You run the risk of your players passing their sense motive rolls, seeing through your poker face as DM or just being paranoid in general.

Or you account for that, and plot around it. Or assume they're going to be contrary and put your plan in place so that they walk into it by not doing what it appears you want them to do. Manipulative railroading if you like.



Also, its worth noting that while this may not have been your plan...don't look at it as a derailment...look at it as an opportunity. Its a great feeling as a player when you get to say the words, "I knew it!". You can now play with those suspicions. Perhaps have other people fall for the dark elf's tricks...the party will love it when they finally get to prove she's evil and take her down.
Agree - possibly the greatest skill any DM can have is improvisation. You can plan everything you want, put in huge levels of detail for things the party will never see, but sooner or later the players are going to do something you don't expect, and you're going to have to appear to be three steps ahead of them, even while you're running to try and catch up.

lytokk
2014-02-20, 08:42 AM
A good question to ask is if they're still stuck on that plane? If so, I've got a thought that could work. Have some time pass on that plane, just fast forward about a month or so. This leads me to the A path. After a set time, another party opens the box and gets sucked in. Only this party is more than willing to free the drow, for promises of power. The drow sends that party out, only your party overhears them talking about slaughtering any who get in their way. Make them seem REALLY evil, like over the top. Your party may decide at that point to ya know, lie to the drow and tell her that they will free her, because they feel they can do it with less bloodshed. Or the drow accidenatally sends them all out of the plane. Now you've set up a race against the clock for your party to stop the anti-party, and if the antiparty succeeds, which they will since they travel at the speed of plot, your drow now has lieutenants that your party has to fight before getting to the BBEG.

Maybe have the party try to find a way off the plane via some sort of exploration. Maybe they find someone else on the plane. It could be some demiplane of imprisonment that a high powered wizard created in order to seal away his foes. This one, isn't a drow, but something else. A human, or non offensive race, who also has the power to send them off the plane. Make sure he appears to be a good guy. and he wants the same thing. When they free him, BOOM, it was the drow, who just hapenned to be very gifted with illusions. Railroady, yes, but lighter more invisible rails, which I am very comfortable myself with using.

Talos
2014-02-20, 03:57 PM
I know you said you are new to the DMing thing. but like the others have said your world is not just your player's characters. the world continues with or with out them so do events good and bad. Keep track in your head or write it down on a story board how these events take shape. how they will effect the players or npcs they will come contact with.

Example: 3.5 ed FR my players encountered a wealthy merchant in the town of tiziir. he was alike a Mafia boss. pillar of the community in the public eye, cutthroat and ruthless for real. on the books he moved all types of goods. off the books he moved black market items too. he was in love with a priestess of talona. she had manipulated him in to helping her collect divine artifacts and powerful items from other patheons. this is the plot my players took. meanwhile they encountered a thieves guild, and college of mages with dragon cult ties and pirates. they made a few friends along the way. so while they delt with the merchant. these mages were trying to create a dracolich, the thieves were plotting revenge on them. the pirates lost a vampire leader so they plotted revenge. all of which had nothing to do with the plot they chose but will eventually effect their personal world along with many other cities and town because of their actions.

so even if they don't save your dark elf and leave her rot. that decision still may effect them in the future.


in my case i would have a rumor mill for each town some local rumors and some with the events they didn't bother with. just to make them think alittle. and of course way fun for me.

lvl0Dmdave
2014-02-21, 06:00 PM
Thank's for all your advise and input. you helped a lot to generate some neat idea's of what i can do to the story/world. Also I understand that I don't have "Supreme control" but I have the ability to manipulate the world to my liking to guide and push the players to certain thing's.
One other thing that i am struggling with his some thing REALLY basic. I don't know were to draw the line when it comes to adding new players to the game and making there back story in the game. Like how they meat or what said player was doing in the world before he met the group or if i don't even have control over that at all.

sktarq
2014-02-21, 06:14 PM
well if you have them sucked into a dark plane now. Finding previous adventurers caught in "stasis" or new arrivals (either via other portals or perhaps prisoners) is a cheap way to introduce people. I know I generally wanted 3-6 people in the party. To account for absenteeism and a group dynamic but not slow things down too much. And did the party have a "point", missions, theme or whatnot when created? They help in terms of purpose and cohesion as well as allowing others to fit in new archetypes that will help.

Troacctid
2014-02-21, 06:31 PM
Occam's razor. One or more of the other PCs has a prior relationship with them and considers them trustworthy enough to accept into the party.

Red Fel
2014-02-22, 12:00 AM
One other thing that i am struggling with his some thing REALLY basic. I don't know were to draw the line when it comes to adding new players to the game and making there back story in the game. Like how they meat or what said player was doing in the world before he met the group or if i don't even have control over that at all.

This is the beautiful thing - you don't have to do a thing except introduce the scene.

For example, are your players in the wild? The new player stumbles across their campsite. Are they in town? You can set up any number of encounters. Are your players in a dungeon? The new player is being attacked, save him!

When you're adding new players, they're really just adding themselves. Go over the new character's backstory with the new player in advance, make sure they fit in your setting and are likely to jive with the party. Wait for a good time, and then simply announce the presence of the new player, and let him introduce himself.

You control the circumstances of a new player introduction, but not the actions of the PCs.

Troacctid also makes an excellent point - it works even better if you let the new player collaborate with an existing player on backstory, so that there's some pre-existing familiarity in-character. "Jim, is that you?" "Bob, quit gawking and help me kill this spider before it makes dinner out of me!" Easiest introduction you'll ever run.

jedipotter
2014-02-22, 12:18 PM
One other thing that i am struggling with his some thing REALLY basic. I don't know were to draw the line when it comes to adding new players to the game and making there back story in the game. Like how they meat or what said player was doing in the world before he met the group or if i don't even have control over that at all.

The easy way is to have the new character have an easy story. They trained in the mountain monastery for 2o years and are now out to see the world. Or they just grew up on a farm. Not everyone is a prince or has an amazing backstory.

To meet, just drop the new character right in front of the group. Whatever they are doing.....oh, look there is the new guy.

Trick one--Combat. Attack the group. And have the new player nearby...so they can run over and help. The bond of combat is strong and makes a good story.

Trick two--Give new player the Crystal Penguin or whatever the group is looking for/would like to have....

Storm_Of_Snow
2014-02-24, 07:14 AM
Thank's for all your advise and input. you helped a lot to generate some neat idea's of what i can do to the story/world. Also I understand that I don't have "Supreme control" but I have the ability to manipulate the world to my liking to guide and push the players to certain thing's.
One other thing that i am struggling with his some thing REALLY basic. I don't know were to draw the line when it comes to adding new players to the game and making there back story in the game. Like how they meat or what said player was doing in the world before he met the group or if i don't even have control over that at all.
Coincidental goals? Think of the early Order strips - the Order's hunting Xykon, when they bump into the Linear Guild, who're looking for Dorukan's talisman, and they team up because they further each other's ends. Or Miko and the Order teaming up against the Ogres to rescue the dirt farmer.

Of course, those example don't end that well, but there's no reason why a party can't meet someone new and get along.

Or, chances are the party aren't the only people to have heard the rumours about the Caves of Wherever housing the wossifor of destiny (the unidentified thing at the back of the kitchen cupboard that one day you pull out, examine, and ask "wossifor?" :smallwink: ), and on their way there, they bump into someone who's also heading there, and has a skill set that the party might need enough to be worth the extra share of treasure and XP they'll take.

Equally, if the players know in advance they'll be missing the next adventure, you can write them out in similar ways, they're out on tasks that are important to them (the cleric's got a religious ceremony that he has to be present at, else he won't get his spells again, the mage needs to harvest herbs for her material components that are only available at a certain time of the year, the barbarian's out because he had too many beers, started a bar brawl, the watch arrested him, and as his punishment, he's now having to rebuild the bar that got trashed, and so on).

kyoryu
2014-02-24, 04:16 PM
My best advice is to read Dungeon World, and look at how that game works and the advice in it on how to run games and fronts.

Really, really awesome stuff. I'd actually recommend *running* Dungeon World, but you've already started with 3.x (which is near the top of my list for 'bad games for new GMs').

You've made one fundamental error here: You've written yourself a scenario that only works if the players do certain things. Ideally, threats progress if the players *don't* interfere.