Extending the life of your bad guy

[KnotKnormal]

The most recent Session of my Epic Level, high stat, god slaying campaign. resulted in a combat against the god Surtur (straight from DD) that lasted a glorious 3 ROUNDS!!! the team work amongst the players was incredible and they managed to catch the luck with attacks. After double and triple checking my numbers after the session the combat was well balanced and the combat should have lasted much longer.

Are there any tips and tricks to getting the combats to last longer? I Believe the next fight is against Odin, or Ares. (I don't have my notes he at work, and I forgot which direction I decided to go with the campaign, I might end up changing my mind again)

Thanks everyone.

Changed the topic slightly. Please read the latest post from me.

[Fouredged Sword]

20 contingent last breaths? Seriously, the god should pop back up from the dead the first few times they kill him.

[pwykersotz]

I second contingency. Also, when fighting gods they have that fun future sight, so the most powerful attacks attempted should probably be auto-foiled since the deity looked to the future and prepared exactly for that attack.

[prufock]

I'm not a big "epic play" guy, so I'm not sure how things pan out at higher levels, but general advice:
-minions to spread the party's focus, distracting them from the BBEG
-the BBEG isn't really there, he's an astral projection/automaton/clone; kill him, then go find the real one
-give the BBEG favorable terrain to use during the fight, with contingencies, backup plans, and dirty tricks up his sleeve
-give the BBEG full HP rather than average or rolled
-debuff the crap out of the PCs

[Know(Nothing)]

Also hit-and-run tactics are deadly even when mooks are using them. They should be half dead by the time the reach any such boss battle.

Also once the boss battle is about to start and they buff themselves up, have the boss change scenery-- moving into a new room/outdoors etc. Then they have to spend resources rebuffing once they get to him again.

[Red Fel]

One of the things to remember in any battle, especially a BBEG battle, is the action economy. That is, barring certain exceptions, the BBEG gets one action each round (or rather, one swift, one move, and one standard) versus those of each PC. A capable party will outperform the BBEG dramatically. So you have several options.

1. The heck with the action economy. The BBEG gets multiple actions per round. Give him multiple initiative rolls, he gets to perform full actions at each.

2. Damage spikes. The BBEG's actions mean more if PCs tend to drop in a single shot. It's merciless, but it forces players to be more tactical, and draws out the battle.

3. Defenses. The converse of damage spikes. Rather than doing explosive damage, the BBEG can soak explosive damage. Give him boosted saves and HP, a contingency or five. Give him improved maneuverability options. Basically, just make him harder to kill.

4. Mooks. This is a popular choice. A crowded battlefield forces the PCs to prioritize targets. They can't all gang up on the BBEG when there's a crowd of uglies ready to gang up on them.

[Rebel7284]

3 rounds is a long battle at epic levels...

edit: 3 rounds is a long battle already at levels 13-15 with half way optimized characters.

[KnotKnormal]

One of the things to remember in any battle, especially a BBEG battle, is the action economy. That is, barring certain exceptions, the BBEG gets one action each round (or rather, one swift, one move, and one standard) versus those of each PC. A capable party will outperform the BBEG dramatically. So you have several options.

1. The heck with the action economy. The BBEG gets multiple actions per round. Give him multiple initiative rolls, he gets to perform full actions at each.

2. Damage spikes. The BBEG's actions mean more if PCs tend to drop in a single shot. It's merciless, but it forces players to be more tactical, and draws out the battle.

3. Defenses. The converse of damage spikes. Rather than doing explosive damage, the BBEG can soak explosive damage. Give him boosted saves and HP, a contingency or five. Give him improved maneuverability options. Basically, just make him harder to kill.

4. Mooks. This is a popular choice. A crowded battlefield forces the PCs to prioritize targets. They can't all gang up on the BBEG when there's a crowd of uglies ready to gang up on them.

Thanks. This is a huge help. I'll let my players know that I'm going to run some experiments next session, and if I need to NERF the combat I'll do it on the fly.

Also thank you to everyone else for your suggestions.

[Fouredged Sword]

I recommend that you don't nerf on the fly, but instead tell them ahead of time that you are trying something new, and are willing to retcon the whole session if it plays out in a way everyone agrees is unfair.

Changing the rules mid session is a recipe for confusion. Better to play it out and see how it goes.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

3 rounds is ok in my books :smallbiggrin:

[Xelbiuj]

I'll never understand the point of roll playing with such optimization and at those ridiculous levels. Granted I have limited experience with rp but it just seems childishly shallow, and dull. "Hey guys, we're cranking everything to 11."

Also seems like if your pcs can slay a god, you're not playing him properly.

[Der_DWSage]

Actually Xel...that's more a problem of Deities and Demigods than in his playing him properly or no. DD was pretty woefully underoptimized, to the point where it really is believable that the Wizard 20/Cleric 20 deity can be killed in 3 rounds by a well prepared PC. Heck, he could be killed in the first round by a well-prepared Wizard that pulls his spells from outside core.

[Xelbiuj]

Actually Xel...that's more a problem of Deities and Demigods than in his playing him properly or no. DD was pretty woefully underoptimized, to the point where it really is believable that the Wizard 20/Cleric 20 deity can be killed in 3 rounds by a well prepared PC. Heck, he could be killed in the first round by a well-prepared Wizard that pulls his spells from outside core.

Meh, perhaps but given salient divine abilities, divine senses, portfolio senses, the ridiculous **** they can do at will, the prep, minions, home field advantage, etc . . . it's just ridiculous.

How does a well-prepared wizard beat a god with all the wizard &or cleric spells and is more weller-prepared?

[Crake]

Meh, perhaps but given salient divine abilities, divine senses, portfolio senses, the ridiculous **** they can do at will, the prep, minions, home field advantage, etc . . . it's just ridiculous.

How does a well-prepared wizard beat a god with all the wizard &or cleric spells and is more weller-prepared?

Yeah, i gotta agree with Xel here, any tricks the player could pull, the god was able to pull them off millennia ago

But that's aside the point, some people like to just play a number crunching game, and others play gods by the letter as they're written in DD

[Zweisteine]

Well, if the players are using actual weapons, Ares might be immune as he might just turn their weapons into rubber, shouting "hahaha you can't stab a god of war!" Of course, that might be a bit mean...

The best way to do this is to make it very difficult to kill gods (even more so than it already is). High-level play degenerates very quickly into rocket tag, so it's hard to keep fights going.

For Ares, you might consider splitting him into identical copies, forming a (very) small army. It's at least a little harder, I would guess, to beat more rhan one god at rocket tag at the same time.

Or the gods were smart, and set up illusions/avatars, so the players waste their strongest powers. This wot work more than once or twice, though, if at all.


EDIT:
The players probably have some special device/spell that let's them kill gods. Give the device a warm-up time, so the fights have a minimum length, an certain players have to survive to actiate the device when it's ready. Of course, if its a spell, don't force the caster to do nothing for a few rounds, unless the player doesn't mind. Perhaps after they cast the spell, is hovers in the air for a few rounds, before requiring a command to attack the god it was cast for.

Or maybe limit their god-killer power to removing divine ranks, one at a time. This might be the best/most realistic-feeling method, but it would require you to have the gods' stats at each divine rank rather than just for one.
(And each time they lose a divine rank, thu mint heal to full HP, and/or be freed from any debilitating effects.)

[Brookshw]

I'd say restated the gods personally. I redid graz'zt for the ending of my last epic, 2 1/2 hours of fighting later we settled for, "its late, we haven't knocked him much below 50%, and this war of attrition sucks. We shattered his plans, destroyed his power base, and took everything from him. Time to flip him off, gate out, and leave him to his impotent fury".

[yougi]

If I were to run a battle against a deity, I'd make it using AngryDM's Boss Monster (http://angrydm.com/2010/04/the-dd-boss-fight-part-1/) ideas. It's meant for 4E, but very much usable with 3.5.

[Der_DWSage]

Meh, perhaps but given salient divine abilities, divine senses, portfolio senses, the ridiculous **** they can do at will, the prep, minions, home field advantage, etc . . . it's just ridiculous.

How does a well-prepared wizard beat a god with all the wizard &or cleric spells and is more weller-prepared?

Long story short? Deities and Demigods was written with only core spells in mind. Start going outside that, and you'll see how it can start getting wonky.

[Keneth]

You fool! This isn't even my final form!

[Silentone98]

You fool! This isn't even my final form!

I agree with this.... and the deity having backup....

probably the party only killed the deities manifested avatar and not the deity itself. (this would likely hurt the deity to some extent however.)

Honestly, there are a mountain of options a deity has and can pull off with but a single free action thought.... I'd capitalize on this and make random crap happen anywhere it's portfolio is concerned.

[Zweisteine]

If the deities were unkillable, I would say that they are something of semi-sentient concepts that exist outside of reality. The gods as we know them are physical manifestations of those powers, but not the powers themselves. Boccob is a sentient manifestation of magic, Ares is a manifestation of war. The death of the living aspect (Ares, in this example) leads to another aspect forming, possibly a different one.

This can easily be adjusted to allowing for permanent deity death. If the power behind the deity is killable, fighting a god could be an adventure, or even a campaign. Perhaps the heroes have to fight the gods time and again, and the gods, angered at their repeated deaths at one group's hands, eventually start teaming up. They start forming stronger manifestations (i.e. the gods the players fight get stronger each time after the first few). Eventually, they come to a "node," the point where a deity pushes into reality; the birthplace of one of the aspects they'd been fighting. Somehow, they destroy it, which either cuts off the deity's power from reality (which could create another whole set of adventures to reopen and control that power), or destroys the deity itself. However, in those final battles, the gods will put all of their power into the fight, because they don't want to die.
The final battle against any deity will be very difficult (i.e. divine rank 20, and scary optimization).

[KnotKnormal]

"its late, we haven't knocked him much below 50%, and this war of attrition sucks. We shattered his plans, destroyed his power base, and took everything from him. Time to flip him off, gate out, and leave him to his impotent fury".

Do you mind if I steal this? It's hilarious.

[KnotKnormal]

Ok based on some of the posts here I feel a little bit of back ground is needed.

Cupid is my BBEG he realized his power can make things "fall in love" with idea. With this he controlled, perverted, and corrupted the gods. Because of this the gods started a way between themselves and it quickly and violently spilled over into the material plane. After a time of the gods using, abusing, and killing, people and even their own follows, the mortals of this plane got tired of being kicked around. they raised armies to fight the gods. (at this point many of the gods have already died from each other, and the big named gods' divine power went the way of this morning breakfast burrito, leaving the stranded in the material plane, BUT PISSED OFF) Signet (home made god of stuff and things.) sacrificed himself to give a group of would be heros a piece of his divine essence, so that they ay be able to defeat the gods and bring the war to and end before the material plan is destroyed.

That's a very brief synopsis of what my world has ben up to. It's missing a lot of details, so please take it at face value.

Thanks again everyone for your help.

[KnotKnormal]

Since It's related to this post I just tacked it o to the end.

What sort of mooks should go with Odin. I need mass weinies that do poke damage. I the a right hand man that an deal massive damage, and I need a left hand man that can put out a lot of attacks with slightly less damage.

Thank you all for your help so far.

[Red Fel]

It depends. Are you going for proper mooks, or simply distractions?

For example, a bunch of ravens would be thematically appropriate, but wouldn't even qualify as mooks, really.

For more traditional mooks, you could go with any number of low-level Barbarians, or bring in more Outsider-y types, like Valkyries. The thing to remember about Barbs and the like is that they tend to deal spikier damage - that is, they tend to dump a heap of pain on an opponent. Now, if your party is focusing fire, taking them out would be straightforward, but any round in which a Barb-type can take its full attack is a round in which somebody's going to experience a world of hurt.

For the right-hand, I would definitely go with some sort of Frenzied Berserker or Runescarred Berserker or similar. Berserker, baby. Foam at the mouth and chop up anything that moves.

For the left hand, I'd suggest more of a Shieldmaiden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shieldmaiden), but what the name suggests rather than what they actually resembled. In brief: Shieldmaidens, despite the name, were warrior women, not just shield-bearers. But for purposes of this build, consider an actual shield-maiden - more like a Paladin or Knight than a Berserker. Yes, she deals damage, but her focus is more to be an obstacle. Since "tanking" in the traditional sense doesn't work well in D&D, you need to give the PCs a reason not to completely ignore her. One trick is to give her more battlefield control abilities - this will force the PCs to attack her if they want to break her hold over the battlefield.

Basically, you get your army of low-level frothing mooks, one big scary musclebound beefcake, one tough-as-nails lady in armor, and the Allfather.

[Brookshw]

Do you mind if I steal this? It's hilarious.

Didn't see this reply until now. By all means :smallbiggrin:

[Der_DWSage]

I'd actually go for a completely different direction for the left hand. Not a frenzied berserker. Not a Barbarian beefcake. Not even one person.

Huginn and Muninn, the Ravens of Mind and Memory. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huginn_and_Muninn) They completed him and they were his knowledge and foresight-that sounds like a Divination Wizard and Cloistered Cleric to me. Suddenly, things got even more interesting. Imply that they brought Odin back last time, too.

I'd even replace the tentative shield-maiden with Geri and Freki, the wolves. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geri_and_Freki) There's your crazed, Runescarred Berserkers. And Freki, the Ravenous, definitely needs some kind of Swallow Whole ability.

THEN you can have generic Barbarians that do poking damage. Still, expanding Odin to include his animal companions sounds like more of a fair fight than Odin by himself.

[KnotKnormal]

Thank you Red Fel and Der_DWSage these have been huge helps, I might do some sort of combo of the two. maybe even 2 separate combats. I'll hash out the details before this weekend.

Also thank you Brookshw for your permission. I might use it next time I play in my friends campaign.

Thanks again everyone.