Ambassador, Warrior, Savage

[Palanan]

I could use build ideas for one of the key figures in my city campaign: an ambassador from a distant tribal confederation who's in town for high-level treaty negotiations.

He's a capable and accomplished warrior, with a powerful presence and careful dignity. He owes his position to his achievements as a war leader, his command of languages, and his personal gravitas--not to mention his mastery of tribal politics.

If the PCs play their cards right, he'll become a significant ally, but I'm not sure which way to go with his build. I don't want to bring in spellcasting or ToB, but otherwise it's wide open. What would provide both diplomatic talent and solid combat ability?

[Doc_Maynot]

Sounds like you want an orc warlord (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a)

The class is after the Gray Orc listing

[Ziegander]

What would provide both diplomatic talent and solid combat ability?

Paladin?

What would seem to be perfect for you is some sort of Paladin/Ranger hybrid. The skills and wildness of a Ranger combined with the charismatic leader/political figure that a Paladin often implies. Now, you could get the wildness from a drastically different play-style of Paladin, through roleplay (and likely through self-nerfs), but you won't get all of the skills I imagine you'd want.

Regardless, you're going to want something Charismatic.

[Rebel7284]

Barbarian marshal with motivate charisma and intimidating rage?

[gorfnab]

Marshal 2/ Barbarian (Spirit Totem: Lion ACF -CC, Wolf Totem ACF - UA, Whirling Frenzy ACF - UA, City Brawler - Drag#349, Skilled City Dweller (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) {Ride for Tumble}) 2/ Paladin of Freedom 3/ Warrior Skald 3/ Warchanter 10

Speak Language and Diplomacy as a class skills, can motivate his troops, and can hold his own in combat.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Doc_Maynot
Sounds like you want an orc warlord....

I appreciate the suggestion, and the orc warlord is great for a battlefield rager, but I'm looking for something that allows for a little more diplomatic finesse. :smalltongue:

Also, this fellow will be human, representing a human tribal culture.


Originally Posted by Rebel7284
Barbarian marshal with motivate charisma and intimidating rage?

...Maybe, but not sure I want to go the rage route. This guy is a little too smooth and controlled for that.


Originally Posted by Ziegander
What would seem to be perfect for you is some sort of Paladin/Ranger hybrid. The skills and wildness of a Ranger combined with the charismatic leader/political figure that a Paladin often implies.

Yes, indeed! Especially the ranger aspect, which I didn't want to emphasize before, but a lifetime of woodcraft is definitely a strong aspect of this character.

Thing is, although there are aspects of the paladin which would work well here, the spellcasting and the Code--not to mention the special mount--tend to put me off. I'm using a stripped-down paladin for another individual in the same campaign, but it didn't feel quite right in this instance.




Originally Posted by gorfnab
Marshal 2/ Barbarian (Spirit Totem: Lion ACF -CC, Wolf Totem ACF - UA, Whirling Frenzy ACF - UA, City Brawler - Drag#349, Skilled City Dweller {Ride for Tumble}) 2/ Paladin of Freedom 3/ Warrior Skald 3/ Warchanter 10

What leaps out at me here is Warrior Skald, which is close to perfect. Cleave is a bit of feat tax I'd rather do without, but the rest of Warrior Skald is just sauce.

Apart from the paladin, is there any other way to get Diplomacy as a class skill? Paladin of Freedom, unfortunately, trades it out for Bluff.

.

[Vhaidara]

As the DM, state that your Paladin of Freedom has Diplomacy instead of Bluff?

This is a time when I feel a DM is 100% justified in fiating something like that.

[gorfnab]

What leaps out at me here is Warrior Skald, which is close to perfect. Cleave is a bit of feat tax I'd rather do without, but the rest of Warrior Skald is just sauce.

Apart from the paladin, is there any other way to get Diplomacy as a class skill? Paladin of Freedom, unfortunately, trades it out for Bluff.

.
Marshal has Diplomacy and Speak Language as class skills. Warrior Skald is mainly there for the Bardic Music access. The War Chanter's Inspire Legion ability is one heck of a capstone.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Keledrath
As the DM, state that your Paladin of Freedom has Diplomacy instead of Bluff?

Well, there's that, although all the paladin variants have their hangups. I went through them pretty thoroughly a couple of weeks ago, including the ones in Dragon #311, and they're all built around supporting certain alignments and having issues with others.

I love the idea of a paladin/ranger, but the particulars don't always line up.


Originally Posted by gorfnab
Marshal has Diplomacy and Speak Language as class skills. Warrior Skald is mainy there for the Bardic Music access.

I'm usually ambivalent about the marshal, but in this case it's a strong contender.

And IC is exactly what I'd like from Warrior Skald.

:smalltongue:

.

[Bigmchuge]

Sounds like a Savage Bard/ Dragon Totem Barbarian to me. Bard for the Inspiration and charisma boosts, Dragon Totem barbarian for the Frightful Presence variant. From there I'd say Warrior Skald or Warchief from the Miniatures handbook. 10 levels of Warchief gives you a +6 to Char and a +10 Str to everyone in his tribe within 30', sure they take 1 point of dam per hit die each round its active, but +5 to hit and +5 to dam, more if they're 2H fighters, is worth it. Plus he has devoted body guards.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by gorfnab
Marshal has Diplomacy and Speak Language as class skills.

Looking at marshal again, I'm a little disappointed at the BAB progression--ideally I'd like to keep full BAB. (Yes, it's an NPC, but still.)

I could also just lead with a level in bard, but that also sets me back in BAB and drags in spellcasting, which I'd really like to avoid.

If only there were a bard without spellcasting--that would really do the trick here.

:smallconfused:

[Bigmchuge]

Looking at marshal again, I'm a little disappointed at the BAB progression--ideally I'd like to keep full BAB. (Yes, it's an NPC, but still.)

I could also just lead with a level in bard, but that also sets me back in BAB and drags in spellcasting, which I'd really like to avoid.

If only there were a bard without spellcasting--that would really do the trick here.

:smallconfused:

I know of no raw that'll allow it. But swap bardic spells for a raven familiar or a dog animal companion. Might take some tweaking to balance it, if you go animal companion, but it'll give you what you want. Use the caster level for the animal's level, maybe.

[Averis Vol]

It sounds like this guy is William Wallace incarnate :P

as for a build, for a lot of diplomacy sway you are going to have to eat some lost BaB, which isn't the end of the world, honestly.

If you want some bardic music, without the bardic baggage, why not go with a harmonious knight paladin of freedom. Harmonious knight trades away detect evil for a piss poor bardic music (+1, but that can easily be adjusted with the magical items a high level diplomat should have.) This also opens you up to the warchanter route. Something like:

Silverbrow human Paladin of freedom 5/ Warchanter 10/ whatever X

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Averis Vol
It sounds like this guy is William Wallace incarnate....

Well, maybe, but with less greatsword and more time at swanky banquets. :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by Averis Vol
If you want some bardic music, without the bardic baggage, why not go with a harmonious knight paladin of freedom.

In fact, I've done almost exactly this for another concept (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=16902620) not long ago, involving a variant paladin topped off with warchanter. It worked out well for that character, but I'm leaning differently on this one.

At the moment, I'm thinking some combination of ranger, feat rogue and Warrior Skald, since that would get me the fundamentals of woodcraft, Diplomacy as a class skill, and IC to top it off.

I'll probably take advantage of a couple ranger ACFs, since an animal companion doesn't really fit my concept. Any feats I should look at in particular?

[Averis Vol]

Depends on the combat style you want for him.

[Twilightwyrm]

This is going to end up sounding at bit weird, but if you didn't want BAB loss, bust still wanted Diplomacy, you could theoretically take a couple levels in Swashbuckler. Think some combination of Swashbuckler/Ranger/Warrior Skald/War Chanter. The Weapon Finesse will be a bit wasted unless you want to give him high Dex, but if he supposed to be a fairly intelligent leader, Insightful Strike can help.
If you do not mind him being lawful, you could go Ranger 3/Swashbuckler 3/Purple Dragon Knight 4/War Chanter 10. This is a bit odd, as it would be using Purple Dragon Knight for this purpose (which doesn't exactly come off as tribal), but the Purple Dragon Knights were already a rather campaign specific PrC, so you could rework it as you see fit. The other issue is, if you don't like feat taxes, Negotiator and Mounted Combat might put you off a bit. Flavor wise though, they are a good fit for a leader.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Twilightwyrm
This is going to end up sounding at bit weird, but if you didn't want BAB loss, bust still wanted Diplomacy, you could theoretically take a couple levels in Swashbuckler.

--Hold on, the swashbuckler gets Diplomacy?

*flip flip flip*

Whaddaya know. I must have missed it when I checked swashbuckler before. That certainly makes for an interesting option.


Originally Posted by Twilightwyrm
Think some combination of Swashbuckler/Ranger/Warrior Skald/War Chanter. The Weapon Finesse will be a bit wasted unless you want to give him high Dex, but if he supposed to be a fairly intelligent leader, Insightful Strike can help.

In fact, I was planning to emphasize his Dex and Int, so this could work really well. It does sound a little weird, but it also fits nicely.

I'd been thinking to go mainly ranger, but since I'm not looking for spellcasting or the animal companion, I probably don't need too much ranger after all. Thoughts?

[Twilightwyrm]

--Hold on, the swashbuckler gets Diplomacy?

*flip flip flip*

Whaddaya know. I must have missed it when I checked swashbuckler before. That certainly makes for an interesting option.



In fact, I was planning to emphasize his Dex and Int, so this could work really well. It does sound a little weird, but it also fits nicely.

I'd been thinking to go mainly ranger, but since I'm not looking for spellcasting or the animal companion, I probably don't need too much ranger after all. Thoughts?

Yeah, makes it helpful for qualifying for quite a few PrCs.

As for the build, it depends on you. From a strictly mechanical standpoint, you want Swashbuckler 3 if you are going to get Insightful Strike, and Ranger 3 just happens to get you Endurance, your Combat Style and a Favored Enemy without going into spells or an animal companion, as you note. Now, if you really don't want spell-casting, but want more levels of ranger, you can always take the spell-less variant from Complete Warrior (assuming the DM allows it) or the ACF from Complete Champion that swaps spell-casting for feats. There are also a number of ACFs that can swap out the Animal Companion, although you don't need to make it a vital part of what he does. A simple owl, raven or hawk to keep watch, a particularly favored steed, or a "pet" wolf/dog all work perfectly well as animal companions without giving the feeling that he is relying on one.
Now, if you want more levels of Ranger you have a few options: first, you could take either variant (or neither if you are okay with having some minor spell-casting), take the Wildshaping Ranger variant from UA, then give him Ranger 5. Without spells, this lets him be a non-spellcasting, but still have an element of mystery and the wild about him, as he can occasionally transform into a beast of the wild to get to the party, gather information on rival diplomats, or other such activities. If you keep his spellcasting, you can help this theme by having him prepare nothing but Aspect of the Wolf (Spell Compendium), which will let him further take on the guise of animals (particularly wolves). Extra effective if his clan or family symbol is a wolf. This gives him a further mystical quality, without making him feel as much like a normal "spell-caster". Unfortunately, this route means giving up the Two-Weapon combat style, but since you would only be going to level 5, you wouldn't be missing more than one free feat, and you could take Two-Weapon Fighting normally for his combat method. Adding more levels of Ranger also means giving up more potential levels of War Chanter, meaning the overt leadership aspects of the character will be emphasized somewhat less than the mysterious and wild aspects. Maybe this is what you want, maybe not.
This will also depend on what level you want to make him at, but for the purposes of this discussion, I will assume 14th, if only because this is the level Cityscape sets the highest level of such nobles and dignitaries you are likely to encounter:
Leadership Emphasis: Human Ranger 3/Swashbuckler 3/Warriod Skald 3/War Chanter 5. Feats: Power Attack (Human Bonus), Cleave, Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler Bonus), Two-Weapon Fighting (Ranger Bonus), Song of the Heart (Recommended), Three Open
Mysterious Wild Emphasis: Human Ranger 5/Swashbuckler 3/Warrior Skald 3/ War Chanter 1. Feats: Power Attack (Human Bonus), Cleave, Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler Bonus), Two-Weapon Fighting (Optional), Extra Wild Shape (Recommended), Song of the Heart (Optional)

Was this something like what you had in mind?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Twilightwyrm
*tall stack o' goodness*

Whew, that's a lot of good advice, thank you. I hadn't been planning to go the spellcasting route, but I like your suggestions about Aspect of the Wolf, so I may end up developing another character based on what you've suggested here.

As for this fellow, right now I'm thinking he'll be Human Feat Rogue 1/Ranger 2/Swashbuckler 3/Warrior Skald 2. (I'd been aiming for seventh level, but the second level of Warrior Skald is a nice one.) This gives him a nice tally of feats and skill points, plus IC once he hits Warrior Skald. Fits very well with what I'd been looking for.

The only real downside, which was a little unexpected, is that he really loses out on the Will save--he has all of +1 for his base save, as compared to +9/+9 for Fort and Reflex. But I can see my way towards an equivalent of the Otyugh Hole, so that should help a little.

Thanks again for opening my eyes to the swashbuckler, and also for enough ideas to develop a second character with a shamanistic/skinwalker feel. Much appreciated!