Hel's Plan

[realroadcrossin]

So I think I know what Hel's trying to do here. It's pretty simple actually - she's going to try to use the snarl to kill Thor.

We now know from Redcloak that the gate ritual transports the gate to another plane, explicitly to be used as a threatening bargaining tool to the other gods. With Durkula under her control she has the divine spellcaster she needs. The main question is, who would be her arcane spellcaster for the ritual?

The obvious theory is V, but there are a couple of problems with that. Beyond the question of whether Hel and the fiends would cooperate with each other, the gate ritual takes weeks, and the fiends only have possesion of V's soul for about half an hour total. In addition, they don't actually control V for that period of time - they just take his soul into the underworld for that time period.

However, if the fiends were to cooperate with Hel, they'd have an easy way around that. Durkula could turn V into a vampire, which is also a process that usually takes a period of weeks, except Malack's staff explicitly has a spell that accelerates that process.

Another possibility I've thought of is that Xykon could take over V's body, either when the fiends take it or after Durkula vampirifies it, in a hypothetical situation where Redcloak has destroyed Xykon's phylactery and Xykon's soul is just hanging about the area when this all goes down.

I think there's definitely a lot of holes here, but I'm pretty sure the general gist is about right. A god entering the playing field here is a big deal, even indirectly, especially since she's probably the only character with an active part in the story right now who really knows what the deal with the Snarl is. She probably even knows something about the ritual the Dark One doesn't, since she was around when they originally imprisoned it (or whatever).

What do you guys think?

[thereaper]

Being a Lich whose phylactery is destroyed would not give Xykon the ability to possess other people. Indeed, the only things the phylactery does is act as a temporary holding vessel for Xykon's soul if he is destroyed and create a new body for him. Until that point, it's just a pretty little bauble.

We have no indication that Hel is in cahoots with the IFCC. In fact, what little we do know about them indicates that they are keeping the evil gods in the dark about the plan (recall how they dealt with Tiamat, for example).

Moreover, we don't even know that the Gate Ritual developed by the Dark One is known to any of the other gods. It might be possible that they've developed their own versions (the one RC has specifically gives control of the gate to the Dark One; not anyone else), but it is far from certain that they have.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Let's start from the top.

1. The snarl is not a sniper rifle, it is Dr. Device (from Ender's Game, in case you don't know. It basically disintegrates a collection of molecules. Protip: Don't use it on any planet you want to ever use again).
2. Malack's staff might be able to accelerate vampirism, but that's no reason to think that it can accelerate anything else.
3. Xykon's soul wouldn't be "floating around" after he dies and his phylactery is destroyed, it would be in the Abyss.

Overall, I find it likelier that Hel would be interested in bringing about Ragnarok, which in the source material, killed Thor. Will kill Thor? Not sure how that works. Worked. Whatever.

[konradknox]

It's possible that the fiends could splice V's soul and abilities to another, evil, spellcaster over a period of several weeks on and off?

[Math_Mage]

With respect to Hel, the main point of her plan is to 'bring ruin to this world'. Killing Thor is a side benefit.

With respect to Xykon possessing V, no.

[realroadcrossin]

Being a Lich whose phylactery is destroyed would not give Xykon the ability to possess other people. Indeed, the only things the phylactery does is act as a temporary holding vessel for Xykon's soul if he is destroyed and create a new body for him. Until that point, it's just a pretty little bauble.

We have no indication that Hel is in cahoots with the IFCC. In fact, what little we do know about them indicates that they are keeping the evil gods in the dark about the plan (recall how they dealt with Tiamat, for example).

Moreover, we don't even know that the Gate Ritual developed by the Dark One is known to any of the other gods. It might be possible that they've developed their own versions (the one RC has specifically gives control of the gate to the Dark One; not anyone else), but it is far from certain that they have.

For the whole plan, it's not necessarily dependent on Xykon though, that's just one of many arcane powerful arcane spellcasters Hel could loop in, especially since Durkula can probably cast sending at some point to virtually any villain they've ever met.

Hel most likely knows the ritual though, since the Dark One learned about the gates and the snarl from the other older evil gods in a poker game. If anything, she probably knows MORE about the ritual than he does. She probably knows more than anybody else here does, actually!

[Carl]

Hel most likely knows the ritual though, since the Dark One learned about the gates and the snarl from the other older evil gods in a poker game.

But did he learn about the ritual in the poker game or did he come up with that by himself later on?

[Zmeoaice]

She said she wants Thor to kneel before her, so killing him would defeat the purpose.

[Winter Light]

She said she wants Thor to kneel before her, so killing him would defeat the purpose.

Well I mean, she is a death goddess and all, so...

[The Pilgrim]

So I think I know what Hel's trying to do here. It's pretty simple actually - she's going to try to use the snarl to kill Thor.

No.

She stated her plan quite clearly: To bring ruin to the OOTS world.

I bet she is not specially satisfied with her lot in the current cosmological order. She doesn't gets anybody to worship her. She only gets a marginal amount of souls who died under very specific conditions (and even when the conditions are fulfilled, Thor seems to snatch the souls from her most of the time).

She probably wants the world destroyed so that, when a new world is created, she gets a better deal.

[ti'esar]

She probably wants the world destroyed so that, when a new world is created, she gets a better deal.

Although "ruin" is an ambiguous word and shouldn't necessarily be read here as meaning "destroy", that would be my best guess at this moment as well. Even the Dark One has more of a solid base of worshipers then she does, which is probably why he's "only" trying to tilt the playing field in their favor while Hel wants to knock over the whole thing.

[Thrillhouse]

Well, the plan definitely involves the gates. If Hel didn't know about them before, she would have to know NOW, since Durkula has access to Durkon's memories and would tell her.

Her plan could be similar to the Dark One's(snarl blackmail would guarantee Thor bowing down before her), or it may simply involve destroying the last game in order to destroy the OOTS world. Xykon doesn't need to possess anyone for this to work though--a much simpler plan would simply be to vampirize the OOTS once they've reached the dwarven lands and then get the entire adventuring party to take control of the gate and either destroy it or ritualify it.

Which, of course, won't be that tough, at least in theory. Roy is agreeing to let Durkula drain all but his last drop once a day, so whenever Durkula wants to start his attack(once they're close enough to the Dwarven lands, most likely), he just has to drain ALL of Roy's blood. That gives him one of the few OOTS members with a high will save for free, and then puts him at 2 Vampires to 4 adventurers. Belkar doesn't have a high enough save to resist the vampiric gaze, so he's a given, and we can only be sure of V's resistance.

Obviously the story won't end that way, but from Hel's perspective, this has to sound like a pretty sure thing.

[Codyage]

Spoiler, but didn't we see the Snarl getting used on Thor in the crayon drawing? That could have been a bit of subtle foreshadowing.

[thereaper]

Well, the plan definitely involves the gates. If Hel didn't know about them before, she would have to know NOW, since Durkula has access to Durkon's memories and would tell her.

Her plan could be similar to the Dark One's(snarl blackmail would guarantee Thor bowing down before her), or it may simply involve destroying the last game in order to destroy the OOTS world. Xykon doesn't need to possess anyone for this to work though--a much simpler plan would simply be to vampirize the OOTS once they've reached the dwarven lands and then get the entire adventuring party to take control of the gate and either destroy it or ritualify it.

Which, of course, won't be that tough, at least in theory. Roy is agreeing to let Durkula drain all but his last drop once a day, so whenever Durkula wants to start his attack(once they're close enough to the Dwarven lands, most likely), he just has to drain ALL of Roy's blood. That gives him one of the few OOTS members with a high will save for free, and then puts him at 2 Vampires to 4 adventurers. Belkar doesn't have a high enough save to resist the vampiric gaze, so he's a given, and we can only be sure of V's resistance.

Obviously the story won't end that way, but from Hel's perspective, this has to sound like a pretty sure thing.

What exactly makes you think he would need to drain that much blood from Roy to sustain himself, or that Roy would let him do so?

[Knight.Anon]

I don't think Hel wants to use the Snarl, She was there when it ate an entire pantheon, then ate a planet for dessert. The only god that wants the Snarl is the Dark One who has no idea what he is getting into.

I think Hel is acting like a comic book villain. She wants to defeat Thor and kill the Dwarves in a way that will bring them all to her.

I think Odin has plans of his own and is giving Hel enough rope so he can get rid of her and her father. There is no way that Loki isn't also in on this, the whole Durkula subterfuge is his type of ploy not Hels. That wolf at her feet was probably Garmr, but it could also her father Loki (in disguise of course).

[factotum]

With respect to Hel, the main point of her plan is to 'bring ruin to this world'. Killing Thor is a side benefit.


And doing so using a largely uncontrollable god-killing abomination would seem to be a very, very bad idea in the first place.

[ti'esar]

I think Odin has plans of his own and is giving Hel enough rope so he can get rid of her and her father. There is no way that Loki isn't also in on this, the whole Durkula subterfuge is his type of ploy not Hels. That wolf at her feet was probably Garmr, but it could also her father Loki (in disguise of course).

I doubt Loki is involved. He appears to more-or-less be an accepted part of the divine order, not an outcast like Hel or the Dark One - I don't think it's a coincidence that both of the gods we've seen directly involving themselves in the Material Plane are gods that were shown to have no stake in the current status quo.

(Also, his previous appearances were played entirely for laughs... but so were Hel's, so that doesn't mean much).

[RMS Oceanic]

Here's something I want to know, and this thread looks the best for raising it: How much of Hel's agenda is forward planning and how much is seizing opportunity?

By which I mean: Think back to this argument with Thor during that fateful fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html). At the time it was just a gag, but could it have served a double purpose? By distracting Thor, Hel potentially prevented him from granting a boon to Durkon that may have allowed things to turn out differently. Was this deliberate? Did she know a high level dwarven cleric was in danger of getting vamped, and tweaked the circumstances so she could make her play? Or was her first knowledge of it the siring of Durkula and came up with this plan on the fly?

[Thrillhouse]

What exactly makes you think he would need to drain that much blood from Roy to sustain himself, or that Roy would let him do so?

I had thought that they actually said this, but I see now I was merely assuming that 90% of a person's blood counted as a "full serving" based on Malack having Durkula leave Belkar alive by leaving his "last drop".

However, the key thing isn't how much blood he ACTUALLY needs. What matters is how much he can CONVINCE them that he needs. If he says "I need as close to a full portion as I can get", the OOTS is likely to believe him (maybe minus Belkar) since they don't know anything about vampires in the first place. Even if he only takes half the blood each time, it still means that every night he will be one on one with a member of the OOTS and have them in a vulnerable position, and the person won't get suspicious until they drop below half blood--it puts him in a very good position to beat that person.

So the question is really whether the blood donor would notice that he was taking too much in time to stop him. Again, both plot and plausibility would suggest that something could go wrong in this plan, but from the perspective of a crafty vampire, this would seem worth the risks.

Now there are a couple of reasons I could be wrong on this (well, since all I'm doing is speculating, more than a couple, but bear with me). I'm noticing now that actually every member of the order except Belkar actually volunteered to donate, not JUST Roy. This means Durkula can't choose beforehand who to try and vampirize first, unless they have some sort of rotation schedule.

Secondly, Durkula may not be at all strategically minded: whether or not it's actually a good idea, Durkula might just not think in these terms. He may be confident that he can just beat the lot of them all at once whenever he needs to--I have to imagine that all those vampire superpowers don't inspire an enormous amount of humility. He does have higher brainy stats, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the thinking he'll succeed at is STRATEGIC thinking--Roy, for example, is the best at this of any of the order despite probably not having the highest INT or WIS or whatever he needs for it.

[Eerie]

"Bringing this world to ruin" and "driving Thor to his knees" is not equal to "undo everything". Even is Hel doesn't have many worshipers, she will have even less if the world is destroyed.

[Loreweaver15]

It is actually explicitly true that higher INT means nothing about individual fields of expertise; Roy couldn't master nearly as much magic as V has, for example, and Roy would run circles around V as a battlefield tactician.

From what I can tell, of the three people who have volunteered blood, Roy is the only necessary target. He's a dangerous mind and has an undead-killing weapon. However, I also read it as the three of them volunteering blood every night right in a row; I guess we'll see.

[factotum]

Even is Hel doesn't have many worshipers, she will have even less if the world is destroyed.

However, Durkon said she had *no* worshippers, so she can hardly have less than zero. :smallwink:

[snowblizz]

Maybe not less worshippers, though I wonder what happens to the few souls she has managed to nab.

Would the dead souls be safe from a world-remake?

[Fitzclowningham]

An additional point to consider is that Hel's plans are time-sensitive ("I am confident that I will arrive in the North in time to carry out your orders."). This could be construed to mean before Xykon and Redcloak have had a chance to finish the gate ritual. Or something else entirely.

[bguy]

So I think I know what Hel's trying to do here. It's pretty simple actually - she's going to try to use the snarl to kill Thor.

We now know from Redcloak that the gate ritual transports the gate to another plane, explicitly to be used as a threatening bargaining tool to the other gods. With Durkula under her control she has the divine spellcaster she needs. The main question is, who would be her arcane spellcaster for the ritual?

If Hel's plan needed an arcane caster wouldn't she have just had Durkula vamp Z back in strip #908 instead of killing him outright? That would have given her a very powerful arcane caster, completely under the control of her High Priest. As such given that she did not take advantage of that easy opportunity to pick up a loyal, powerful arcane caster, I don't think her plan has anything to do with the Gate Ritual.

[Vladier]

Maybe not less worshippers, though I wonder what happens to the few souls she has managed to nab.

Would the dead souls be safe from a world-remake?

They would be in Hel's domain which is apparently on the Lower Planes and not on Prime Material, so they would be safe.

Maybe Hel's plan involves blackmailing the gods into letting her take the souls of the dwarves who died due to alcoholism?

[SlashDash]

So I think I know what Hel's trying to do here. It's pretty simple actually - she's going to try to use the snarl to kill Thor.

You're not the first or the last to think about it. Loads of people suggested it.



The main question is, who would be her arcane spellcaster for the ritual?

However, if the fiends were to cooperate with Hel, they'd have an easy way around that. Durkula could turn V into a vampire, which is also a process that usually takes a period of weeks, except Malack's staff explicitly has a spell that accelerates that process.

Actually, the bigger problem is that what makes you think V is even capable of doing it? He\She doesn't even have 9th level spells yet...



Another possibility I've thought of is that Xykon could take over V's body,

Why not just predict that Xykon would be the one to do the casting on his own? He and Red Cloak obviously aren't going to work together till the very end.

Durkon can make a decent ally to him.

[factotum]

Actually, the bigger problem is that what makes you think V is even capable of doing it? He\She doesn't even have 9th level spells yet...


What makes *you* think that the arcane caster in the ritual has to be able to cast 9th level spells? Redcloak chose Xykon as his arcane caster because all the goblinoid ones he could find were barely able to cast cantrips, not because Xykon was capable of casting high level spells; and Redcloak himself was only able to cast 9th level spells relatively recently, so being a high level caster doesn't seem to be a requirement for this ritual.

[zimmerwald1915]

What makes *you* think that the arcane caster in the ritual has to be able to cast 9th level spells? Redcloak chose Xykon as his arcane caster because all the goblinoid ones he could find were barely able to cast cantrips, not because Xykon was capable of casting high level spells; and Redcloak himself was only able to cast 9th level spells relatively recently, so being a high level caster doesn't seem to be a requirement for this ritual.
For the Dark One's ritual. Any ritual Hel might have in mind - and she might not - could have any requirements.

[Amphiox]

One thing to remember is that Hel, presumably, knows the true nature of the Snarl, whatever that is. And she's the only side in the conflict that does. She has first-hand knowledge, while everyone else is relying on second and third hand accounts of uncertain reliability.

Whatever her plans turn out to be, they will be based on accurate knowledge about what the Snarl is.

So IF she plans on using the Snarl like a sniper rifle against Thor, while the rest of us might think that doing so with a god-killing, world-unraveling abomination is unwise, her doing so could be an indication that the Snarl actually ISN'T a god-killing, world-unraveling abomination of unfettered and uncontrollable chaos.

Or it is, and she's not planning to use the Snarl directly against Thor....

[zimmerwald1915]

One thing to remember is that Hel, presumably, knows the true nature of the Snarl, whatever that is. And she's the only side in the conflict that does. She has first-hand knowledge, while everyone else is relying on second and third hand accounts of uncertain reliability.
It's possible that she was not present at the creation of the world. We know that the creator pantheons can recruit ascended gods because Odin was prepared to recruit Banjo into the Asgardian Pantheon. And nowhere in the Crayons of Time series or anywhere else is Hel mentioned as being among the Asgardian Pantheon at the time. The only gods we can be reasonably sure were in the Asgardian Pantheon at the time were Odin, Thor, Loki, and whoever the woman in the final panel of this strip is [Sif?] (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html).

It's not terribly likely that Hel ascended and was inducted into the Asgarian Pantheon, because a goddess with no worshippers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) in the modern day, in a key Asgardian demographic, is unlikely to have had so many in the past that she ascended. But it is a possibility, and thus we should not presume with surety that Hel knows the true story of Creation and the nature of the Snarl.

[Loreweaver15]

I'm pretty sure that's Frigga in the last panel, but hey :P

[Heksefatter]

My guess is that she's planning something similar to what the IFCC is planning, just with herself as the beneficiary, rather than them. Of course, we don't know exactly what the IFCC is planning, either.

[zimmerwald1915]

My guess is that she's planning something similar to what the IFCC is planning, just with herself as the beneficiary, rather than them. Of course, we don't know exactly what the IFCC is planning, either.
Sure we do. They want to unite the fiendish races into an unstoppable army that can storm the Upper Planes and exterminate the indegenes, including the gods that make their homes there. Or were they lying when they - twice, on-panel, and to different characters (Tiamat and V) - claimed as much?

[ti'esar]

Sure we do. They want to unite the fiendish races into an unstoppable army that can storm the Upper Planes and exterminate the indegenes, including the gods that make their homes there. Or were they lying when they - twice, on-panel, and to different characters (Tiamat and V) - claimed as much?

But we have no idea how that involves the gates, or the death and destruction on a massive scale in the Material Plane that they believe their plan will cause. And the "technically true" bit in 668 also suggests that there's more going on.

[Giggling Ghast]

I'm also going to offer the theory that Hel is actually a fairly new goddess (in the proper mythology, she is Loki's daughter) and was given a portfolio she doesn't particularly care for: administering the realm of the dishonoured dead.

If the Snarl escapes, the gods will (presumably) reforge its prison with a new world, and she will be able to negotiate for greater power because the participation of all gods is an absolute necessity for the plan to succeed.

That, or she's barking mad and simply desires the destruction of everything.

[Boogastreehouse]

It looks better with some space


If Hel's plan needed an arcane caster wouldn't she have just had Durkula vamp Z back in strip #908 instead of killing him outright? That would have given her a very powerful arcane caster, completely under the control of her High Priest. As such given that she did not take advantage of that easy opportunity to pick up a loyal, powerful arcane caster, I don't think her plan has anything to do with the Gate Ritual.

I don't usually spend time posting wacky theories of my own, but Vampiric Durkon certainly had the opportunity take a finger or something from Zz'dtri after Nale ran away. I know the Giant has said he doesn't like raising characters from the dead because it makes the threat of death for the heroes feel meaningless, but for a villain to use it as a big plot twist near the end of the story, he might feel differently. If Durkon raised Z somewhere private, and immediately grappled and vamped him, well, now all Hel needs is the ritual and if she already has it, then she just needs time for them to cast it. By doing it secretly, the Order will have no idea that Zz'dtri is still on the board.


It looks better with some space

[factotum]

I know the Giant has said he doesn't like raising characters from the dead because it makes the threat of death for the heroes feel meaningless, but for a villain to use it as a big plot twist near the end of the story, he might feel differently.

I doubt he would feel differently, because allowing use of True Resurrection for *anybody* then begs the question of why it can't be used for the heroes.

[Rezby]

Rich hates True Resurrection. That one doesn't require anything at all. It's established canon that Durkon (and thus, Durkula), know Resurrection, which works as long as there's even one drop of blood. Remember shortly after the pyramid blew? Roy instructed the Order to look for V, and said exactly what I just quoted, in case V had been inside the pyramid.

That theory is, in fact, possible.

Just not plausible. Hel has purview over dwarves. Z is not a dwarf, so there is no evidence any vampire made of Z would be willing to be in cahoots with Hel/Durkula. And it's too risky to have a permanent thrall.