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theonesin
2014-02-19, 09:30 PM
I had a thought come to mind, somewhat inspired by the movie Frozen, and the ice queen Elsa who had magic powers, but lacked full control of them.

When I think back to the tabletop games I've played(mostly D&D), we always play characters who are immediately masters of their craft. They may not be the strongest warriors or spellcasters, but there's rarely even an issue of one's abilities going out of control. Only class examples I can think of at the moment are the 3.5 Frenzied Berserker, and the 4e Wild Sorcerer.

I know tabletop games already have an element of randomness, and the prospect of having abilities that would harm/kill other PCs accidentally is usually frowned upon. And yet the idea is interesting to me. Some character/campaign/system where you DON'T play someone who can immediately control themselves 100% of the time. Not even just a case of "oh, this attack goes out of control and hits the wrong target", but ideas of "you unwillingly put more/less power into the attack" or "you distorted the normal effects of the ability".

Anyone have any experience/thoughts on these sorts of ideas? It just kinda peaked my interest tonight.

ChaosArchon
2014-02-19, 09:44 PM
In Dark Heresy theres a chance when you use psyker powers for them to (sometimes literally) blow up in your face because you're trying to control an eldritch plane of existence's energy. When you mess up you can mess up big time like becoming possessed by a demon of the warp among other things or going nuclear and creating a big explosion with your mangled giblets at the center of it.

Raimun
2014-02-19, 10:04 PM
I dunno, randomly working powers can get old really fast.

Also, in most fiction strange powers aren't the norm, hence, no practice, knowhow or control. This is not the case in most RPGs where a mage has most likely learned his trade from a master mage.

"Listen up, boy, this is important. Now you will learn how to keep the flames contained in one place so you won't roast your friends."

Ravens_cry
2014-02-19, 10:42 PM
You can make a character like this in Mutants and Masterminds, which makes sense as it's a fairly common comic book trope. Rogue is probably the most famous example from that medium.

Dawgmoah
2014-02-19, 11:18 PM
I know tabletop games already have an element of randomness, and the prospect of having abilities that would harm/kill other PCs accidentally is usually frowned upon. And yet the idea is interesting to me. Some character/campaign/system where you DON'T play someone who can immediately control themselves 100% of the time. Not even just a case of "oh, this attack goes out of control and hits the wrong target", but ideas of "you unwillingly put more/less power into the attack" or "you distorted the normal effects of the ability".

Anyone have any experience/thoughts on these sorts of ideas? It just kinda peaked my interest tonight.

I have had people work at learning to control their flying if they are not a born flyer. Nothing too difficult but it can make some moments a bit hair raising for them.

Same with lyncanthropes when they first begin changing; that's in the book.

Slipperychicken
2014-02-19, 11:38 PM
I have had people work at learning to control their flying if they are not a born flyer. Nothing too difficult but it can make some moments a bit hair raising for them.

Have you ever considered using something like PF's Fly skill (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/fly)?

Dawgmoah
2014-02-19, 11:42 PM
Have you ever considered using something like PF's Fly skill (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/fly)?

Yes, I lifted that from PF not too long ago.

theonesin
2014-02-19, 11:53 PM
Well, when I thought about this, I never considered it as a "you always have a horrible chance to fail". I think under most "normal" circumstances, they likely wouldn't have any issues. But having the potential for things to go differently interests me.

I just kind of like the idea of a character that has to actually get used to their powers, either over time and/or by overcoming some issue that's holding their powers back.

Mr Beer
2014-02-20, 12:25 AM
GURPS has extensive rules for limiting powers.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2014-02-20, 12:48 AM
Well, when I thought about this, I never considered it as a "you always have a horrible chance to fail". I think under most "normal" circumstances, they likely wouldn't have any issues. But having the potential for things to go differently interests me.

I just kind of like the idea of a character that has to actually get used to their powers, either over time and/or by overcoming some issue that's holding their powers back.

I think the best way to manage it would be as a risk/reward system. Let abilities appropriate for your character's power/skill have zero chance of failure, and then give the character the option to boost the power for a stronger effect, but with a chance of failure. This risk would most likely replace any existing resources (such as per-day spell slots), if only for simplicity, so the base ability should be more or less at-will.

Slipperychicken
2014-02-20, 12:53 AM
I think the best way to manage it would be as a risk/reward system. Let abilities appropriate for your character's power/skill have zero chance of failure, and then give the character the option to boost the power for a stronger effect, but with a chance of failure. This risk would most likely replace any existing resources (such as per-day spell slots), if only for simplicity, so the base ability should be more or less at-will.

Sounds like you're talking about Shadowrun's magic system.

NichG
2014-02-20, 01:04 AM
The way I'd build a system for this is to start with the idea of 'Guarantees'. These are a (finite build resource) set of rules you can apply to your powers that you know absolutely will not be violated. The key is, you do not get enough of them to actually cover all the bases.

So for example, you can Guarantee that your powers will never strike an ally, but then you cannot Guarantee that your power will activate on command, or that it will not also strike innocents, or whatever.

The idea is, players will feel powerless if they really can't say at all how their powers will work, and will naturally be hyper-paranoid about using them. So you give them the ability to be sure about a few things, and then you riff off of the things they did not choose to guarantee to implement the 'uncontrollable' aspect. Also, the list of Guarantees will give the players a good idea of what could go wrong (e.g. things that will go wrong are likely things covered by some of the guarantees they don't have). I could imagine a system with, say, 10 possible Guarantees and everyone gets to take 2.

Each Guarantee could have a boon associated with it as well, to make it more interesting.

Guarantees:

- No Friendly Fire: My magic will never strike someone I care about against my will. Boon: I can drop an AoE on my party members and they'll be unharmed.
-- Perfect Targetting: Requires spending 2. My magic will never strike an unintended target. Boon: As above, but also won't hurt innocents.

- Ecologically Friendly: My magic will never harm the environment or pull resources/energy from things around me. Boon: Spells cause no property damage unless intended.

- Reliability: My magic will always activate when I will it. Boon: Spells ignore antimagic fields and dispel/counterspell effects.

- Regularity: The strength of my magic will always be the same whenever I use it. Boon: Spells ignore some degree of resistance/immunity.

- Manifestation: The form of my magic will always be the same whenever I use it. Boon: You can refluff/reshape spells when you learn them/prepare them/etc.

- Stability: My magic will never have additional effects or lack effects which I expect. Boon: Spells ignore conditional requirements (e.g. 'you need an Astral plane adjacent to teleport' and the like).

- Thrift: My magic will never cost me more or less of the casting resource to use than normal. Boon: Spells cost 25% less than normal of the casting resource.

- Safety: My magic will never have backlash/other harmful effects upon my person. Boon: You can cast spells that would normally have a backlash component without paying the backlash component.

- Hooded Lantern: My magic will not make others aware of itself in an abnormal fashion (e.g. it will not alert forces on other planes when used). Boon: You can conceal your magic, like a Nystul's Magic Aura.

- Control: My magical effects may never be seized from me against my will, nor can I ever be compelled to use my magic. Boon: You can dismiss any of your spell effects at will, even ones that are normally not dismissable.


On top of this, you can play with the system here - if a player chooses to temporarily lose a Guarantee on their powers, they can draw out an extra surge of ability in a time of crisis; things like that.

Another good model might be the idea of 'GM Intrusions' from Numenera - basically, the players get some kind of nice resource whenever you decide to make their powers flare/behave unexpectedly.

Essentially this is all trying to create a state where players actually welcome things going out of control, rather than living in dread of it.

prufock
2014-02-20, 08:15 AM
Another idea:

I'm running a Mutants and Masterminds game right now where, by group decision, I designed and designated power suites for the PCs to gain over the course of the game. Each power suite has a theme, and I haven't granted them all at once. It isn't so much that their powers are uncontrollable, more that the players themselves are never sure what power might get "unlocked" next. It's been fun watching them come up with creative ways to use the powers I give them, and it isn't always what I had in mind, but if I like it I reward their creativity.

TheCountAlucard
2014-02-20, 08:45 AM
In an old Vampire: the Masquerade game I played, this was part of my Malkavian's derangement.

He had an insanely-broad suite of mental powers, which would from time to time activate themselves seemingly on their own.

Imagine accidentally reading someone's mind.

Imagine minding your own business, only to suddenly hear a conversation from sixty yards away.

Imagine you're talking to someone and suddenly you see her aura. Or amp up the raw power of his emotions. Or afflict him with hallucinations or mortal terror.

Imagine reading an article in the newspaper, only for the letters to appear to rearrange themselves and inform you that the writer is a murderer.

Imagine getting into the back of a cab, only for the cab driver to forget you're even there, because you've disappeared from his mind. Or that, to him, you're a movie star you happened to have thought of.

Imagine that without even trying, you can be the most interesting person in the room. That you can lock eyes with someone and force them to "eat dirt," without meaning to.

Imagine touching an object and knowing its history, who was using it and how they felt when they did - better stay away from other people's computers. :smallyuk:

To clarify, he could and did regularly use his array of powers, on purpose even! But his condition made him a very careful person.

DigoDragon
2014-02-20, 09:30 AM
GURPS has extensive rules for limiting powers.

My experience with uncontrolled powers tends to be with that system. Often used in playing young super heroes whose powers have just come into being. I was on a team where one PC had the giant growth power, but she could never control the exactness of her size. Basically, if she wanted to grow, she'd roll randomly between 1 and X for her size (where X was her maximum potential).

Sometimes leads to hilarity if she did this indoors and didn't get the low roll she hoped for. :smallbiggrin:

Another super hero was a shapeshifter who had difficulty keeping forms. If he took too many hits, he had to make a concentration check or revert to his natural form (which was a small blob of goo with eyes).

Qwertystop
2014-02-20, 12:54 PM
I might play this entirely as RP - the player is in control of what the powers do, but the character doesn't have that kind of control. It ends up reading as plot-induced luck. In the example of semi-uncontrolled telekinesis, it might not always move things in efficient paths, it might do things that the character isn't comfortable with, it might even cause significant annoyances to other party members if you agree on that OOC - but there isn't any risk of a nearby fencepost spontaneously uprooting itself and skewering someone in the middle of a diplomacy scene.

Tricky to do right, and I haven't had a chance to try it, but it seems to get most of the character-development opportunities and interesting situations without breaking the basic assumptions of the game too much or crippling you too badly.

Thomar_of_Uointer
2014-02-20, 02:33 PM
I might play this entirely as RP - the player is in control of what the powers do, but the character doesn't have that kind of control. It ends up reading as plot-induced luck. In the example of semi-uncontrolled telekinesis, it might not always move things in efficient paths, it might do things that the character isn't comfortable with, it might even cause significant annoyances to other party members if you agree on that OOC - but there isn't any risk of a nearby fencepost spontaneously uprooting itself and skewering someone in the middle of a diplomacy scene.

Tricky to do right, and I haven't had a chance to try it, but it seems to get most of the character-development opportunities and interesting situations without breaking the basic assumptions of the game too much or crippling you too badly.

I ran a sorcerer like that once. Whenever there was a combat situation he could only scream in draconic and set things on fire. Out of combat he could only cast cantrips. He would also gather spell components while sleepwalking.

Mr Beer
2014-02-20, 04:27 PM
My experience with uncontrolled powers tends to be with that system. Often used in playing young super heroes whose powers have just come into being. I was on a team where one PC had the giant growth power, but she could never control the exactness of her size. Basically, if she wanted to grow, she'd roll randomly between 1 and X for her size (where X was her maximum potential).

Sometimes leads to hilarity if she did this indoors and didn't get the low roll she hoped for. :smallbiggrin:

Another super hero was a shapeshifter who had difficulty keeping forms. If he took too many hits, he had to make a concentration check or revert to his natural form (which was a small blob of goo with eyes).

Yep, this kind of RAW flexibility makes GURPS awesome. I sometimes look at the GURPS forum on another site, the guys there often discuss how to model crazy character builds. I think Sentient Hat was the last one I read about.

BWR
2014-02-20, 05:04 PM
Psionic Wild Talents, at least in 2e, could easily be played in this manner. It's a power you were randomly assigned, one that doesn't always manifest itself when you try to use it, you may not even be consciously aware of it or fully comprehend what it is.

DigoDragon
2014-02-21, 12:21 PM
I think Sentient Hat was the last one I read about.

I'm picturing the Sorting Hat from the Harry Potter series.

ReaderAt2046
2014-02-21, 10:42 PM
A great way to run this would be to simply make all the random effects positive (which would require a slight nerf to the basic ability, of course). Imagine, for example, a D&D Sorcerer variant who has one less spell slot per level, but in exchange whenever he casts a spell, he has a 1 in 20 chance to get a boost to the spell from the following list (roll which one randomly, reroll if you get one that doesn't make sense, like maximizing Light):
1. Free Spell: Get back the spell slot you spent on this casting.
2. Empower Spell: All variable, numeric effects of the spell are increased by one-half.
3. Maximize Spell: All variable, numeric effects of the spell are maximized.
4. Quicken Spell: Get back the action you spent on this casting.
5. Enlarge Spell: Any numeric expressions of the spell's area are doubled.
6. Chain Spell: If this is a single-target spell, you may have it affect an additional target of your choice within range of the first one (i.e., a spell with range of 25 feet would require that the second target be within 25 feet of the first).
7. Echo Spell: This spell is cast again as a free action on your next turn. All targeting and other decisions are identical to the first time you cast it.
8. Heighten Spell: For all purposes relating to spell level, this is treated as a Level 9 spell.

Mr Beer
2014-02-22, 03:35 AM
I'm picturing the Sorting Hat from the Harry Potter series.

Was a bit like that but more awesome. After all, it went on adventures rather than just hanging around a school.

UndertakerSheep
2014-03-01, 03:52 AM
A possible idea inspired by Dungeon World. Apply this move to any spellcaster in a 3.x game.

When you cast a spell using powers you can't control, roll 2d6+INT or 2d6+CHA. On a 10+, the spell functions as normal. On a 6-9, the spell overcharges. Choose two from the list below: those effects do not apply to the spell. All the other effects now do apply to the spell. On a 5 or lower, the spell doesn't go off. You don't expend a spell slot, but the following effects do happen (as if the spell was cast). You can choose one effect that does not apply.


Pick an amount of allies in range of the spell equal to the number of enemies targeted by the spell. Those allies are now also targeted by the spell.

You and each target of the spell take 1d4/spell level damage.

You take a -2 penalty to your AC and saves for 1d4-1rounds.

Your spell causes collateral damage (the GM will narrate this)


Most likely this won't be exactly what you like, but you can tinker with this framework to your heart's content. Just remember: a 10+ should mean a total success, a 6-9 should mean a partial success and a 5 should mean failure. This system ensures that a caster with his casting ability score as his primary ability score will almost never completely fail at casting a spell, which I think is important for players to feel like they aren't screw ups who can't handle magic.

I chose not to expend the spell slot on a failure because I feel like a house rule should enrich spellcasting, not make it less fun. My reason for only allowing the caster to prevent one effect on a failure is because the first option doesn't do much if the spell doesn't go off (unless the second option happens).

Tell me what you think!

Seward
2014-03-02, 12:29 PM
Anyone have any experience/thoughts on these sorts of ideas? It just kinda peaked my interest tonight.

Hero Games system (AKA Champions) was originally built to model comic book powers, which include things like that. You can make it cheaper to buy powers if you take any of the following limitations.

1. Activation. Sometimes the power doesn't work. You aim your gun and it misfires and waste your action.

2. Jam. Like activation, except that when it doesn't work you can't use that power at all. Your gun fires, and jams.

3. Burnout. Like jam, except the power is guaranteed to work once. What happens next depends on the dice. You fire your gun, and the barrel is now hot. The next shot may or may not jam the gun.

4. No Conscious Control - the power works when the GM says it does, usually whenever would be most entertaining. Often used for game-breaking powers like precognition.

5 Side-Effect - something bad happens with your powers that you live with. (the sonic rifle does 1d6 no-normal-defense stun to the shooter if you fire single shot, 2d6 autofire. It needs better shielding but that's too expensive so your minions just suck it up. Dr Decibel thinks a little hearing damage is a small price to pay to have his minions gun down Captain Community as he bursts through the door with a complaint about the loud music.)

There's a few other flavors, which are based more on giving you more character points to build with, rather than making powers cheaper.

"Accidental Change" is what the Hulk does. When certain situations happen, your powers go off, whether or not you want them to. Usually tied to a psychological weakness that requires ego checks to resist, but sometimes other mechanisms.

You can build part of a power "in control" and buy an increased power (area, dice, whatever) version with of the above limits, to make it less certain what will happen when you fire the energy blast. I had one character who had all his powers work much like a rod of wonder. ("I go THAT WAY" and his movement power might be flight, running, swimming, teleportation..he had no idea what would happen, except he'd go "that way" a certain distance if terrain allowed it).

More commonly you might add random damage on a gun to simulate a more lethal shot (6d6 normal, 8d6 14-, 10d6 11-, 12d6 8-) or an experimental weapon that SHOULD be 12d6 but will always do SOMETHING.

Something like Phoenix in X-Men becoming Dark Phoenix might be an accidental change tied to a no conscious control power, linked to using her powers at full strength. Sometimes you get a feedback loop and can't stop it until a party member puts you down. But it doesn't happen if you hold back.

It's also fairly common in the setting to have psychics in particular being unusually vulnerable to their own abilities. Telepathy you can't turn off as it were. Mechanically any mentalist is very tough to hurt with mental powers unless you buy disadvantages to offset that. A strong person with a glass jaw has a similar problem, although mechanically in later versions they separated strength and toughness more.

It can be done, but it requires taking control away from the player and handing it to either the dice or the GM. Champions was very mechanistic about how it did that, barring the rare "No conscious control" limitation where you pretty much just trust the GM. More recent game systems that have more of a storytelling bent and have other approaches

Fate and Nobilis, for example, both have mechanics that let the player choose something about their character that usually is an advantage but sometimes is used against them. When used against them, they get mechanical benefits that let them invoke the aspect in a positive way later. So you take "MY POWER IS POORLY CONTROLLED" and use it to do something surprising and useful when you invoke it, but the GM will sometimes instead use it to burn the tavern to the ground when you were trying to just zap the invading zombies...but give you a fate point for behaving properly)

In this style, the game system normally has a way for the player to refuse the trait, which is the equivalent of "This time, when the chips are down, Phoenix puts her all into keeping her power on a leash and doesn't lose control"...acting out of character, which people do in real life and in stories. You pay a mechanical cost in terms of the same resources you'd use to invoke it in a positive way later.

To translate to D20, this approach might be something like a paladin refreshing a power or spell slot when a character did something especially pleasing to her patron deity that caused significant problems in game, or having spell slots or powers drained when they do the expedient thing instead of what pleases the god. Not quite as all-or-nothing as losing paladinhood...more like your fuel tank gets topped off or drained when you behave for or against the ethics of your deity.

The idea is to have those aspects say something to the GM about your character...say what kinds of cool things you might want to do but also what kinds of trouble you'll usually WANT the GM to cause the character, because it is entertaining. Then the game backs it with a mechanical advantage or penalty for going against what you staked out on your character sheet.

Both approaches can work. In a typical D&D game I'd use a mechanical approach for people who have power through their own efforts (wizards, martial artists use skill checks and failure does entertaining things) and a more Fate-like approach for religious characters, based on "I AM A PRIEST OF THOR" where you might get benefits beyond the spell or power descriptions for especially appropriate situations (or spell slot refreshes) and the equivalent of level drain if you go against the ethos for some important reason (reserving atonement for going against ethos for stupid reasons).

For something like a sorcerer you could do a bit of both, with skill checks to control the power but sometimes being rewarded or punished for acting like their bloodline.

The key difference is a skill check failure affects the OUTCOME right now, perhaps influencing success or failure or causing side effects, where the "I AM A PRIEST OF THOR" type is a CONSEQUENCE...you get the outcome you intended but you then pay the price or reap the rewards of your behavior.

(there is overlap. Doing something deeply against your deity's ethos might cause total loss of power right now, or just for that action, the equivalent of invoking an aspect to fail in fate. Failing a skill check might still succeed, but at a cost (another Fate-style option), leading to consequences down the road)

For this to work, unless it is completely mechanical (like activation or burnout chances in Champions) you need a lot of trust between the GM and the Player to focus on entertainment and not simply screwing the players or gaming the mechanics to trivialize the GM's game.

Diskhotep
2014-03-13, 06:59 PM
The best games I've ever run like this were using the Psi*Run system. It's a very freeform game that shares narrative control between the GM and the players.

Characters in Psi*Run are all psychics with amnesia on the run from mysterious "chasers". Each character has between 4-6 questions they need answered (things like "What is this keycard for?", "What happened to my brother?", or "Who is the woman in this photo and why is she so important?"). As they move from location to location, actions they perform may trigger their memories. When one player has answered all of their questions, the game wraps up.

Psychic powers are chosen by the player, though their character may not know what they are yet. Powers are broad things like "I can fly", "I can set things on fire", or "I can control gravity", but the actual details of how they work are left vague, as the character cannot fully control their abilities.

The game always starts with The Crash, an index card set on the table with markers representing the characters. As they move to new locations, new cards are added for each new place, creating a trail for the chasers to follow.

When a player performs a meaningful action, they roll a number of dice and assign them to a checklist. The results determine what happens.

"Did I accomplish my goal?": If yes, the GM describes how they succeed. If no, the player describes how they failed.

"Do I trigger a memory?": Depending on the die assigned, either they remember nothing, the player answers one of their questions, or the other players answer one of their questions ("Do I know Kung Fu?" "No, but you've seen all of the episodes."). The player has to agree to the answer, but the assigned die determines who has first say in offering possible answers.

"Do the chasers move?": Either the chasers do not move, they move one location closer to the PCs on the trail, or they move two locations closer. The GM describes how the chasers are tracking the PCs as if it were a cut scene.
If the chasers catch up to the PCs, this result changes to "Does somebody get captured?", or if already captured "Does someone disappear forever?"

If the character used their power, they also have to assign a die. Either the power works as described, has a power surge (GM has first say, but enough that it might be mentioned on the local news), or goes wildly out of control (causing massive damage/destruction likely to appear on the national news).

If the character risks harm from the action, the die determines if they suffer no damage, are hurt, injured, or die.

Psi*Run isn't a game I would recommend for a long campaign, but for a one-off meant to run between 1-4 sessions it is amazing amounts of fun. Since the players and GM decide the setting and nature of the chasers, you could easily reskin it from psychics to aliens trying to escape the Men in Black, apprentice wizards being tracked by demonic mage hunters, or faeries attempting to escape the Inquisition.

Jarred Stone
2014-03-17, 03:44 PM
Have you ever thought about wild magic? It was an obscure D&D class which was just like a wizard BUT, such wizard could cast a spell spontaneously once per day by activating a wild magic surge.

When performing a wild magic surge, **** could hit the fan, or be greatly rewarded. You could cast your spell 3 levels higher or lower than expected but, if you get the same number when you launch 2d6s to determine the level bonus or penalization of the surge, things get funny.

How funny, you ask? Well, just imagine a big fireball that, when exploding, it spawns millions of little bunnies running on fire. Your fireball has done no damage and now there are millions of critters around running in panick. Or getting a gender switch on any party member. Or travelling to another plane. Or making the enemy to be in love with you (...and you with him). The list is endless.