noob question about flat footed

[tim01300]

So I got into a small argument tonight with my group. Simply situation, if a party member is opening a door into a room with a monster in it and the monster knows the party is on the other side of the door. As the player opens the door and sees the monster initiatives are rolled. The player beats the monster. Is the monster flat footed? The player was a rogue and argued that if the monster hasn't acted he is flat footed. But I argue that the monster is prepared for him opening the door because he heard the player coming, just because he lost initiative shouldn't mean he suddenly is caught off guard. The monster can choose to be ready but not take a sneak attack or prepare an action against the player opening the door right? Or am I wrong in this?

IMO the rogue didn't move silently and was still trying to demand sneak attack damage

[Hiro Protagonest]

The rules state that if something has not yet acted in combat (that is, it's the first turn and you had a higher initiative than them), they are flat-footed. The player is right.

[Zweisteine]

Directly from the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted):
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed.

So the monster is flat-footed until it has acted. It also can't prepare any actions until after initiative is rolled, either.

This also let's a rogue shine a little, because it provides the opportunity to get a sneak attack in in any combat.

Of course, if the monster knew he players were there, he'd probably The a surprise round, in which axe he had acted before the first round of combat, preventing him from being flat-footed.

[KillianHawkeye]

Of course, if the monster knew he players were there, he'd probably The a surprise round, in which axe he had acted before the first round of combat, preventing him from being flat-footed.

Yeah, the monster should have gotten a suprise round since he knew the party was there but nobody knew he was there. He would have gotten first action, allowing him to prepare an attack for whenever the door opened, and would not have been flat-footed on the Rogue's turn.

[shortround]

Can I just make sure I'm understanding this correct, as well? So given what actually happened, the rogue is correct and so the monster was indeed flat-footed, but had the monster had the surprise round we all believe it was entitled to, it would not have been, yes?

[eggynack]

Can I just make sure I'm understanding this correct, as well? So given what actually happened, the rogue is correct and so the monster was indeed flat-footed, but had the monster had the surprise round we all believe it was entitled to, it would not have been, yes?
Pretty much, yeah. He didn't have to get a surprise round, but if the OP wanted to show a situation where the monster is all prepared for a fight, then that'd be the way to do it, unless the players were also prepared for a fight.

[Silentone98]

honestly... with how that played out.. the monster heard them, therefore he had surprise round and is NOT flat footed... he simply did not optimize his turn by ready'ing an attack.

the player is indeed wrong, and should be wracked silly with a book and thankful the monster didn't open the battle with a charge.

[eggynack]

the player is indeed wrong, and should be wracked silly with a book and thankful the monster didn't open the battle with a charge.
No, he's not. Had the OP done a different thing, then the player would be wrong, but the OP did the thing he did, so the player was right. He shouldn't be smacked about with a book, rhetorically or otherwise, for a mistake that the OP made.

[Silentone98]

No, he's not. Had the OP done a different thing, then the player would be wrong, but the OP did the thing he did, so the player was right. He shouldn't be smacked about with a book, rhetorically or otherwise, for a mistake that the OP made.

OP made no mistake.. he stated, the monster heard the players before hand, and was prepared... that is all that is needed.... making an attack on your surprise round is NOT required.

to clarify,... if what you said was true, then I would still be flat footed on a NORMAL round after my round has passed, if I choose to not act that turn.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, the point is that the monster deserved a surprise round, assuming that it was hostile and would have attacked anything that came through the door, or even if it expects the PCs might be hostile and is willing to defend itself. It knows the PCs are there while the PCs have no idea about the monster.

It doesn't even matter what the monster DOES with his surprise round. He can even DO NOTHING and still not be flat-footed the next round because he already had a turn in the surprise round.

[Silentone98]

Yeah, the point is that the monster deserved a surprise round, assuming that it was hostile and would have attacked anything that came through the door, or even if it expects the PCs might be hostile and is willing to defend itself. It knows the PCs are there while the PCs have no idea about the monster.

It doesn't even matter what the monster DOES with his surprise round. He can even DO NOTHING and still not be flat-footed the next round because he already had a turn in the surprise round.

exactly what this guy said, thank you

[eggynack]

OP made no mistake.. he stated, the monster heard the players before hand, and was prepared... that is all that is needed.... making an attack on your surprise round is NOT required.
The OP didn't say that the monster had a surprise round. He just had the players roll initiative, and then the game proceeded with normal rounds, surprise round free. Perhaps in a future similar case, the OP can declare such a surprise round and be correct in the eyes of the rules, but in this case in front of us, he was mistaken, because the monster never acted in combat.

[Silentone98]

The OP didn't say that the monster had a surprise round. He just had the players roll initiative, and then the game proceeded with normal rounds, surprise round free. Perhaps in a future similar case, the OP can declare such a surprise round and be correct in the eyes of the rules, but in this case in front of us, he was mistaken, because the monster never acted in combat.

Not very familiar with the rules are you? a DM doesn't need to state a surprise round started when its not initiated by the players. This would be pointless if you did not want your players aware that this happened, and extremely useful at keeping them acting as they should, i.e. unawares.

[eggynack]

Not very familiar with the rules are you? a DM doesn't need to state a surprise round started when its not initiated by the players. This would be pointless if you did not want your players aware that this happened, and extremely useful at keeping them acting as they should, i.e. unawares.
I'm pretty familiar with the rules, and I don't particularly see why it wouldn't be declared. You could even have the surprise round happen before they kicked down the door, and do so after they kick down the door. It doesn't have to be at the moment of the surprise round. However, not saying that the monster isn't flat-footed makes no sense, because that's a thing that the combatants would be reasonably aware of (as the monster would look all readied), and because it's a thing with tactical impact on battle.

Hell, the OP could have even mentioned that the surprise round happened as a reason why the sneak attack didn't work, and he didn't. I would favor the not-that approach, because it seems kinda jerkish to entrap the character in a decision made with incomplete information (perhaps he would be allowed to act differently), but it's feasible. The OP didn't do any of those things, the monster never acted, and thus, the monster was flat-footed and the sneak attack should have occurred.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Not very familiar with the rules are you? a DM doesn't need to state a surprise round started when its not initiated by the players. This would be pointless if you did not want your players aware that this happened, and extremely useful at keeping them acting as they should, i.e. unawares.

But he still didn't have the enemy take an action before they acted. That means there was no surprise round.

You can say the DM is right to change the rules if he wants to say the monster wasn't ready enough to get the jump on them. You cannot say the DM is backed up by the rules as written.

[Silentone98]

Hell, the OP could have even mentioned that the surprise round happened as a reason why the sneak attack didn't work, and he didn't...., the monster never acted, and thus, the monster was flat-footed and the sneak attack should have occurred.


He did state that,.. re-read the first post.

also, the monster could be wearing a pink tie just because you said so by one line of your argument

"because that's a thing that the combatants would be reasonably aware of (as the monster would look all readied)"
did anyone bother to ask? idk. Do DM's always state every little detail? No, especially when there's an angry player in their face argue'ing details before the DM can get anywhere- idk if that is the case because I was not there, but this is typical.

And no, a surprise round DOES NOT by any means need to be declared when the party has no reason to be aware of it! This is DM's discretion. You state they "what they should be reasonably aware of" on one thing, yet argue for knowledge of something they wouldn't be reasonably aware of on another. this is contradictive and more than a bit confusing.

Jade:

But he still didn't have the enemy take an action before they acted. That means there was no surprise round.

again READ the original post... he said the monster heard them and was ready... taking NO ACTION on your surprise round is still taking your turn, he is therefore not flat footed.

If you want to take the argument from there, you can state,
"Your monster didn't act, he is therefore throwing up his arms in defeat and leaving every opening possible, despite having been aware of us before hand!" cause that is what this argument is

also, be aware as players... anything you argue FOR can be used against you... next time your aware of a monster and decide to skip your turn and see what the unawares monster does first... remember this discussion as he walks right up to you and gets flat footed sneak attack damage, cause he looked and initiate was rolled

[Pan151]

But he still didn't have the enemy take an action before they acted. That means there was no surprise round.

You can say the DM is right to change the rules if he wants to say the monster wasn't ready enough to get the jump on them. You cannot say the DM is backed up by the rules as written.

He did have it take an action. The action was "position yourself behind the door and wait."

The OP is completely right. The enemy was not flat-footed when the rogue took his turn.

[Dawgmoah]

He did have it take an action. The action was "position yourself behind the door and wait."

The OP is completely right. The enemy was not flat-footed when the rogue took his turn.

One series of games I was in I played a rogue. And every time I opened a door there would be a bunch of guys with readied crossbows and things who immediately took shots at me. Did they hear me? No. Did they see me? No. He said they were guards and thus prepared for action. I asked him if he had ever stood facing a door for hours with a gun in hand and ready to shoot...

[Silentone98]

One series of games I was in I played a rogue. And every time I opened a door there would be a bunch of guys with readied crossbows and things who immediately took shots at me. Did they hear me? No. Did they see me? No. He said they were guards and thus prepared for action. I asked him if he had ever stood facing a door for hours with a gun in hand and ready to shoot...

surprise round where none was appropriate? now this one actually sounds like a legitimate argument. Feel bad for you on that one but it still depends.

Heres the thing,... they don't have to see you, or hear you in order to prepare a ready action for "Shoot at this spot the second the door opens."... but I would seriously kick the DM in the balls if those guys with the readied actions had no reason to be doing that.(I.E. expected an enemy any moment is a good reason)
but if they did, then the only argument comes down to timeframe.

A DM has a lot of room to be pretty brutal. But they have even more room to be unfair, this is true... the difference is knowing which is which.

[Bloodgruve]

SRD "If no one or everyone starts the battle aware, there is no surprise round." This means Flat Footed can be achieved even in a surprise round, might be hard to act on though as your actions are limited.

If I have a monster behind a door I allow the party a listen vs move silent.

If they win a Listen check, initiative is rolled when the door is opened, no surprise round.

If I win, I get a surprise round.

If the party wins a move silent/hide while opening the door or preparing a 'charge in' they get a surprise round, this is usually hard though. Rusty locks, creaky doors n the such.


Not very familiar with the rules are you? a DM doesn't need to state a surprise round started when its not initiated by the players. This would be pointless if you did not want your players aware that this happened, and extremely useful at keeping them acting as they should, i.e. unawares.

A good DM will try to allow the party a way to determine a threat, even if you have to roll it in secret. There are always exceptions to this but it shouldn't be the norm IMHO. PC's moving through a dungeon should expect confrontation as much or more then a guard behind a door does.

If the rogue would have won a Listen check AND initiative then the monster would have been Flat-Footed.

If the party takes no precautions to be quite and the NPC succeeds a listen check then I usually let them actively 'move silently'. Or if an alarm is raised or something like that.

That's how I run it, I want my players to rely on Skills as much as combat prowess.


GL
Blood~

[Silentone98]

...
GL
Blood~

right,... so as you said, theres no flat footed.
But in regards to good DM'ing, we wont ever know im afraid.

[Andezzar]

Heres the thing,... they don't have to see you, or hear you in order to prepare a ready action for "Shoot at this spot the second the door opens."... That will not work as you think it would. Readied actions take place before the triggering condition.
You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. So all you will get is an arrow in the door.

[Silentone98]

That will not work as you think it would. Readied actions take place before the triggering condition. So all you will get is an arrow in the door.

read that again, wording of your readied action is key.
"Shoot after an opponent see me" or whatever will do it
true someone can argue the first way I phrased it... but not the second, so your just nitpicking me lol

I don't know the 'proper' way to word that off hand,... but it's more than do'able

[Andezzar]

True, but you would still be able to perceive that the condition is met. So someone could open the door and a hiding rogue could slip through.

[Pan151]

One series of games I was in I played a rogue. And every time I opened a door there would be a bunch of guys with readied crossbows and things who immediately took shots at me. Did they hear me? No. Did they see me? No. He said they were guards and thus prepared for action. I asked him if he had ever stood facing a door for hours with a gun in hand and ready to shoot...

Now that is indeed not how things should go.

Flat-footed is the mechanical term for being caught unaware by the enemy. If they were just waiting and you suddenly open the door without them having caught smell of you being on the other side of the door then they are obviously flat footed. Otherwise, by the same logic, any and all encounters could potentially be flat-footed-proof.

In any stuation, however, where the enemy has a legitimate reason to be able to surprise attack you before you are aware of them being there (and regardless of whether they actually choose to go through with the surprise attack or do something else in preparation for the upcoming battle) they are not flat-footed, because they are aware of where exactly you are.

[Zweisteine]

Don't forget that actions can only be readied in combat (I.e. after initiative is rolled).

[Dawgmoah]

surprise round where none was appropriate? now this one actually sounds like a legitimate argument. Feel bad for you on that one but it still depends.

Heres the thing,... they don't have to see you, or hear you in order to prepare a ready action for "Shoot at this spot the second the door opens."... but I would seriously kick the DM in the balls if those guys with the readied actions had no reason to be doing that.(I.E. expected an enemy any moment is a good reason)
but if they did, then the only argument comes down to timeframe.

A DM has a lot of room to be pretty brutal. But they have even more room to be unfair, this is true... the difference is knowing which is which.

I hear what you're saying. And on occasion it would have been alright. But every time? Guards standing at alert on the doors to the outside are one thing, but a dozen rooms into the dungeon when no alarm had been spread?

Guess how many encounters there were that my rogue surprised anyone? Zero.

All in all we still won through and cleared the dungeon. My rogue was good for only checking for traps though. And it was a new DM; towards the end of the campaign my rogue was actually able to sneak into a compound, past the guards. I chalk it up as a learning experience for him. We all start somewhere, right?

[Silentone98]

All in all we still won through and cleared the dungeon. My rogue was good for only checking for traps though. And it was a new DM; towards the end of the campaign my rogue was actually able to sneak into a compound, past the guards. I chalk it up as a learning experience for him. We all start somewhere, right?

true that. :)

almost like he was overcompensating with "DM's defence against such and such" and accidentally punishing you for being rogue by over-doing it.

Good that he lightened up.


@Tim
Any word on how this matter got resolved after our input here? Kinda curious if you revisited the issue with your player.

[Kyberwulf]

Simply situation, if a party member is opening a door into a room with a monster in it and the monster knows the party is on the other side of the door. As the player opens the door and sees the monster.

Does the monster get a surprise round?

What if I add ", initiatives are rolled."

[Silentone98]

Simply situation, if a party member is opening a door into a room with a monster in it and the monster knows the party is on the other side of the door. As the player opens the door and sees the monster.

Does the monster get a surprise round?

What if I add ", initiatives are rolled."

naw.... he's already taken his surprise round by that point. but he doesn't get one as the player becomes aware of him, no.

now that the player and the monster are both aware of eachother, you got to roll initiative. The monster cant be caught flat footed because he was aware before hand and therefore taken a surprise round(however poorly he choose to spend it)
But if the player opened that door, unawares of the monster, he can be caught flat footed if he loses initiative.

If the monster readied an action for his surprise round(s) before the door was opened and before the player became aware of him; that might be handled differently with an opening shot to the face or something,... maybe a barrel of explosives next to the door going off?

EDIT: While being aware before hand doesn't necessarily mean the monster choose to take a surprise round, and therefore ready, it would be rather stupid to assume he didn't in many cases.... it is up to the DM to decide on rather or not being aware of something before hand causes said creature to react in such a manner.
In most cases, a player doesn't really have much room to even argue such a thing unless the DM has been abusing this freedom.

[tim01300]

Well to answer how the situation was handled, that night it more or less ended in an argument that we moved on from with me telling my players I would ask on here for an answer. Which I feel from what I've read, I was right in not making the monster flat footed but I could have communicated with my players a little bit clearer on why to avoid the whole mess. In my mind the monster hearing them and being ready for them was common sense but I should have just said after the argument came up that the monster used a surprise round to do nothing. I spoke with my rogue today and he accepted my reasoning gracefully.

I didn't give the players a listen check out of not paying attention and I'd gotten too used to them asking for one at most doors so I missed the opportunity to help him out. My fault there.

As always thanks for the help/input everyone!