New to Bloodlines

[Thuphinlok]

So my crew and I have started running a game for all of our 'signature' characters from 1-25. We are not min/maxers by any means, but we do spend an inordinate amount of time pouring through every book we can get our grubby hands on in order to fill out our characters as close as we can to our imagined concept of how awsome they appear in our heads. I am playing a half-elf monk (15) with a Major dragon bloodline (3) from Unearthed Arcana. My question is this. . I know that bloodline levels count for class related lvl dependent benefits (ie monks wholeness of body, so at monk 7 and bloodline 2 he would heal 18 pts of dmg), but they do not confer any HD BAB or saves. It seems to me that bloodlines act as a slightly improved LA. If that is true, are Bloodline leves subject to being bought off? The way I see it you could buy off the 3 levels, keeping all the benefits of the bloodline, while losing the +3 to your char lvl for Wholeness of Body. What are your thought Playgrounders?

[Sir Chuckles]

That could be boiled down to a houserule.
By RAW, no, they cannot. They are Bloodlines, not a Level Adjustment.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

So my crew and I have started running a game for all of our 'signature' characters from 1-25. We are not min/maxers by any means, but we do spend an inordinate amount of time pouring through every book we can get our grubby hands on in order to fill out our characters as close as we can to our imagined concept of how awsome they appear in our heads. I am playing a half-elf monk (15) with a Major dragon bloodline (3) from Unearthed Arcana. My question is this. . I know that bloodline levels count for class related lvl dependent benefits (ie monks wholeness of body, so at monk 7 and bloodline 2 he would heal 18 pts of dmg), but they do not confer any HD BAB or saves. It seems to me that bloodlines act as a slightly improved LA. If that is true, are Bloodline leves subject to being bought off? The way I see it you could buy off the 3 levels, keeping all the benefits of the bloodline, while losing the +3 to your char lvl for Wholeness of Body. What are your thought Playgrounders?

I would allow it. I'm not sure how to price it, but it would probably cost a little less than normal LA buyoff because the abilities are slightly weaker per-level than LA is and you're losing the make-up-for-lost-levels-with-level-scaling bonus when you buy it off. Maybe 75% the usual cost for LA buy-off?

[Swaoeaeieu]

bloodlines don't have to be bought off since they are not LA.
a level 7 monk with 2 bloodline levels is still a level 7 character. the 2 bloodline levels progress level related class features, but nothing else. your total level is not influenced by bloodline levels.

when you are level 2 you have to take a level in bloodline. from that point on you are again level 2 and can progress to level 3.

short version: bloodlines do not influence ECL, they merely delay your progres to 3, 6 and 12 level.

but bloodlines are really confusing, so i might be wrong.

[prufock]

bloodlines don't have to be bought off since they are not LA.
a level 7 monk with 2 bloodline levels is still a level 7 character. the 2 bloodline levels progress level related class features, but nothing else. your total level is not influenced by bloodline levels.

when you are level 2 you have to take a level in bloodline. from that point on you are again level 2 and can progress to level 3.

short version: bloodlines do not influence ECL, they merely delay your progres to 3, 6 and 12 level.

but bloodlines are really confusing, so i might be wrong.

It's not so much confusing as vaguely written. There's been debate about this ever since it was printed. The confounding part comes from the line "Class levels of 'bloodline' do not increase a character's character level the way a normal class level does, but they do provide certain benefits (see below)."

It's a vague statement, and could mean "It doesn't increase character level at all" or "It increases character level differently" and goes on to tell you in what ways it is different.

I'm personally on the side that it is an increase in level, as it is itself a level, and otherwise confers a benefit at no cost. The text even calls it a bloodline class level.

RAW there is no way to buy off a bloodline. It's a level, not a level adjustment.

[AmberVael]

short version: bloodlines do not influence ECL, they merely delay your progres to 3, 6 and 12 level.

This is an interpretation of bloodlines you see every so often, due to particular wording in the bloodline entry. Personally I think this interpretation is incorrect and is only possible due to poor word choice, but that's just me.

That said, rather than using LA buyoff for bloodlines you might consider implementing that interpretation- it might make things a bit easier.

[Thuphinlok]

So does that mean that I advance from lvl 2 to lvl 3 (bloodline) and then repeat lvl 2-3, or do I need the equivalent xp for a lvl 4 to gain my next lvl? How would that work with gaining XP? Am I considered lvl 2 (as my monk class lvl) or am I considered lvl 3? This is my main quandry in bloodlines. If I am not mistaken the text specifically says the bloodline lvls do not increase your ECL, so if that is the case I should earn xp as 1 lvl below the rest of the party correct?

[Divide by Zero]

This is an interpretation of bloodlines you see every so often, due to particular wording in the bloodline entry. Personally I think this interpretation is incorrect and is only possible due to poor word choice, but that's just me.

That said, rather than using LA buyoff for bloodlines you might consider implementing that interpretation- it might make things a bit easier.

If you aren't using that interpretation to abuse other poorly-worded aspects of it (e.g. by advancing the features of multiple classes that also stack with each other), it's hardly game-breaking and I'd allow it if I knew I could trust the player to not do anything stupid.

[TuggyNE]

So does that mean that I advance from lvl 2 to lvl 3 (bloodline) and then repeat lvl 2-3, or do I need the equivalent xp for a lvl 4 to gain my next lvl? How would that work with gaining XP? Am I considered lvl 2 (as my monk class lvl) or am I considered lvl 3? This is my main quandry in bloodlines. If I am not mistaken the text specifically says the bloodline lvls do not increase your ECL, so if that is the case I should earn xp as 1 lvl below the rest of the party correct?

Yes, that's what that reading means.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

If you aren't using that interpretation to abuse other poorly-worded aspects of it (e.g. by advancing the features of multiple classes that also stack with each other), it's hardly game-breaking and I'd allow it if I knew I could trust the player to not do anything stupid.

So now that we're tempting fate, can anyone come up with a fun build that abuses bloodline levels?

[Flickerdart]

Allowing bloodlines to be bought off like LA would be missing the entire point of both concepts.

The reason that LA buyoff exists is that the designers recognized that racial powers become less and less relevant as class features scale up. Powerful Build is pretty sweet on a Goliath (3d6 greatswords, woo!) at level 1, but at level 20 it doesn't really matter. So your LA goes down as the thing you got for it becomes less relevant.

Bloodlines, in turn, start out really weak, and then increase in power as the character does. The benefits of your sacrificed levels steadily increase, rather than decrease, in proportion to your total level. You might notice that this is the exact opposite of what LA buyoff is for.

[Swaoeaeieu]

best explanation i ever found (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7167)

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Allowing bloodlines to be bought off like LA would be missing the entire point of both concepts.

The reason that LA buyoff exists is that the designers recognized that racial powers become less and less relevant as class features scale up. Powerful Build is pretty sweet on a Goliath (3d6 greatswords, woo!) at level 1, but at level 20 it doesn't really matter. So your LA goes down as the thing you got for it becomes less relevant.

Bloodlines, in turn, start out really weak, and then increase in power as the character does. The benefits of your sacrificed levels steadily increase, rather than decrease, in proportion to your total level. You might notice that this is the exact opposite of what LA buyoff is for.

Fair point. Bloodlines are supposed to be an alternative to LA, after all.

[Thuphinlok]

Alright! Thank you all for your help and advice. I believe this concept has finally clarified itself for me (at least as far as my brain doesn't bleed when I think about it anymore :smallsmile:) For the moment I will run all of your sugestions and what not past the group and see where it goes.