[PF] Barbarian with Max DR

[Gabe the Bard]

So I'm trying to come up with a barbarian build that scrapes together all the various options for increasing DR, and be more or less playable from levels 1-20. The things that I've come up with so far are Invulnerable Rage archetype, Dragon Totem Resilience, Increased DR rage power, and Stalwart feat line. Any thoughts or suggestions for other abilities to increase DR from hardcover materials? Mythic included.

Unbreakable Fighter 1 / Invulnerable Rager Barbarian X
F1 Combat reflexes, Power attack, Diehard, Endurance
B2 Combat expertise, Reckless abandon // DR 1/-
B4 Stalwart, Intimidating glare // DR 4/-
B6 Animal fury, Extra rage power (Dragon totem) // DR 5/-, Fire resist 1
B8 Vital strike*, Dragon totem resilience // DR 11/-, Fire resist 16
B10 Improved stalwart, Dragon totem wings // DR 17/-, Fire resist 22
B12 Raging brutality, Increased DR, // DR 21/-, Fire resist 26
B14 Improved vital strike*, Increased DR // DR 23/-, Fire resist 30
B16 Greater vital strike*, Increased DR // DR 27/-, Fire resist 34
B18 Extra rage, Mighty Swing DR 29/-, Fire resist 38
B19 DR 31/-, Fire resist 38


* The vital strike line was included for increased DPR in a mythic progression. Non-mythic progressions could replace Vital Strike with something else, like Toughness and Raging Vitality.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Any chance you can get warforged in there too? Also, you'll have to run this by your GM to make sure different sources of DR stack.

[Stux]

Yes, RAW most of these DRs don't stack. It isn't just a case of maybe your DM won't allow it, they would actually have to specifically house rule a change that did allow it. From the SRD:


If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.

[N. Jolly]

Well, it looks like everything you have there stacks: IR as the base coat, Stalwart states it stacks with class DR, and Dragon Totem doesn't give new DR, it adds 2 to the old DR you had, so you should be good there. Same with the Rage Power to boost them, looks like you're nice and legal there, although most Mythic DR is to Mythic, so that probably won't help you there.

Some of the feat choices are a little odd, but it's your character. You have made one hell of a hard nut to crack though.

[Silentone98]

oh lordy.... all his DR seriously stacks? I'll have to bookmark this...

If you don't already... take a flaw or two from Unearthed Arcana,.. pretty standard stuff, but some DM's don't play with it, others do.
It'll help elevate the feat costs.

[Gabe the Bard]

@Thomar_of_Uointer - Actually, we have a warforged in our group that was houseruled in with mithral body. I probably won't use it for the character I'm working on now, but it would be nice to know for future reference and theoretical builds. Fortification is nice, but is there anything for warforged that increases DR and stacks with class features?

@Stux and N. Jolly - These are all the legal sources of stackable DR I could find, and as Jolly mentioned they work because they specifically increase the barbarian's DR class ability rather than simply granting another source of DR X/-. I don't know if the designers really intended this, but it works. Looking at it now, this kind of reminds me of the uber inspire courage builds for 3.5 bards which were possible by combining obscure feats from half a dozen splatbooks.

I'm kind of ambivalent about stalwart, though, since using combat expertise will hurt my attack rolls. Basically I was aiming for a reach weapon character that gets lots of AoO and soaks up damage, hence some of the odd feats. So stalwart is kind of a double-edged sword. I think I mostly want it just so I can write DR 30+ on my character sheet :smalltongue:

The only source of Mythic DR I could find so far was the Guardian's Absorb Blow ability, which gives you temporary DR/epic and energy resistance based on how much damage you absorb. It specifies that the DR and resistance stack with anything else you already have. All the other Mythic abilities either give you DR that doesn't stack with anything or DR/epic that only stacks with other DR/epic.

[Stux]

Huh. I stand corrected! You may want to take Dodge to help avoid flying CRBs :smalltongue:

[Gabe the Bard]

@Silentone98: Sadly, our DM doesn't usually allow Unearthed Arcana. Not even in a 3.5 game. I think he feels like it's unbalanced and allows too many different options that might overwhelm some people. The feat cost is really the only reason to multiclass, since unbreakable fighter is more efficient than trying to cram all those feats into a single class barbarian. And mighty rage at level 20 is sort of underwhelming compared to an extra 12 points of DR.

[Gabe the Bard]

Huh. I stand corrected! You may want to take Dodge to help avoid flying CRBs :smalltongue:

Don't worry, I'll only have to dodge one of those :smallbiggrin:

[N. Jolly]

@Silentone98: Sadly, our DM doesn't usually allow Unearthed Arcana. Not even in a 3.5 game. I think he feels like it's unbalanced and allows too many different options that might overwhelm some people. The feat cost is really the only reason to multiclass, since unbreakable fighter is more efficient than trying to cram all those feats into a single class barbarian. And mighty rage at level 20 is sort of underwhelming compared to an extra 12 points of DR.

Honestly for this build I'd cut the 3x Improved DR powers. They're very much not worth it, especially for only Rage DR (even though I know by that point you'll really only be fighting in Rage). A power for 1 point of DR is a terrible exchange, so I'd replace them with Superstition, Witch Hunter, and Spell Sunder respectively. Also unless you're going Mythic, I'd avoid Vital Strike as it's really a poor option. I made the following progression earlier for something before, but I think it still holds true here, although feel free to chance the first level for Unbreakable Fighter to taste.

Half-Orc Invulnerable Rager 12

1-Endurance (racial), Diehard
2- Superstitious
3-Combat Expertise (or Power Attack)
4-Witch Hunter
5-Stalwart (or Combat Expertise if not already selected)
6-Spell Sunder
7-Power Attack (or Combat Expertise/Stalwart if not already selected)
8-Strength Surge
9-Extra Rage Power: Reckless Abandon
10-Eater of Magic
11-Improved Stalwart
12-Come and Get me

Going Human with one level of Unbreak gives us a few more feats to work with, which would help you make up for the missing powers to get Dragon Totem.

[Stux]

Don't worry, I'll only have to dodge one of those :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, and to be fair you'll have the DR to absorb the hit.

[watchwood]

DR like that is practically begging to take the bodyguard/in harms way feats.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

@Thomar_of_Uointer - Actually, we have a warforged in our group that was houseruled in with mithral body. I probably won't use it for the character I'm working on now, but it would be nice to know for future reference and theoretical builds. Fortification is nice, but is there anything for warforged that increases DR and stacks with class features?

Look up the Adamantine Body feat. It's DR/adamantine instead of DR/-, but if your GM is letting you stack them it's great.

[Gabe the Bard]

@N. Jolly - I guess the Increased DR rage powers are suboptimal, so I probably won’t include them in actual play. Superstition is a good alternative, though if I were to take it at level 2, I might go human for the +1/3 bonus to will save.

@watchwood - In Harm’s Way is okay, except you need to be adjacent in order to use it. Our group tends to move around a lot during combat, so that’s not a consistently viable option for us. Something to consider, though.

@Thomar_of_Uointer – Unfortunately, Adamantine Body gives you DR/adamantine which doesn’t stack with a barbarian’s DR from class abilities. Stalwart wouldn’t work with it either because it specifically stacks with DR from class abilities only, which would exclude racial abilities.

Also, I think my math was a bit off. The maximum DR at level 20 should be DR 30/- even with Increased DR rage powers:

DR 30 = 9 (invulnerable rager) + 6 (dragon totem) + 12 (stalwart) + 3 (increased DR x 3)

[VexingFool]

I was playing around with this build earlier today and noticed a possible RAW issue. I tried searching to see if it had been addressed before but did not find anything.


Dragon totem resilience:

This resistance equals double her current DR/— from her barbarian damage reduction class feature; this DR increases by 2 for each dragon totem rage power she possesses, including this one.
And


Invulnerable rager:

Invulnerability (Ex)
At 2nd level, the invulnerable rager gains DR/— equal to half her barbarian level. This damage reduction is doubled against nonlethal damage.This ability replaces uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and damage reduction.

So the bonus DR from Dragon totem would not be applied to your DR from Invulnerable rager because you do not have barbarian damage reduction you have invulnerable rager invulnerability. Improved damage reduction should still work because it does not call out the class feature it just references damage reduction. If I am wrong or there has been a ruling on this hopefully someone can point it out.

I know the initial build you posted wasn’t final but I also thought I would mention that there is no reason to take Barbarian-19. All you get from it is a BAB increase since you already have the DR 9/- at level 18 from invulnerable rager. You could take another level of fighter for another feat and +1 Fort save plus unflinching from unbreakable. Or maybe take a splash of Chevalier for +1 Fort and Will plus Aura of courage and recklessness.

[Gabe the Bard]

So the bonus DR from Dragon totem would not be applied to your DR from Invulnerable rager because you do not have barbarian damage reduction you have invulnerable rager invulnerability. Improved damage reduction should still work because it does not call out the class feature it just references damage reduction. If I am wrong or there has been a ruling on this hopefully someone can point it out.

I dunno, I think that’s really starting to split hairs, but I guess it depends on how the DM reads it. An argument for disallowing it could be that Dragon Totem Resilience and Invulnerable Rager were each separately designed to enhance a normal barbarian’s mediocre DR, rather than being used together. But if that’s the case, you could argue just as easily that Increased DR rage power was designed to be used only with normal barbarians, since the prerequisite is Barbarian Level 8 which is when a normal barbarian starts to get DR. That’s more like RAI than RAW, though.

You’re right about Barbarian 19, though. It’s just dead weight and could easily be replaced with another fighter level. I would probably replace it with Unbreakable Fighter 2 for the extra feat.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

Why not to take the dragon totem wings for the +2 DR?

[Spore]

Why not to take the dragon totem wings for the +2 DR?

It's not the point of this thread to create a working character but to find the "hard cap" on damage reduction.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

I mean they give +2 DR

[VexingFool]

He has the Dragon totem wings. At Barbarian 10.


B10 Improved stalwart, Dragon totem wings // DR 17/-, Fire resist 22

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

X_X I am blind, sorry

[grarrrg]

I was playing around with this build earlier today and noticed a possible RAW issue. I tried searching to see if it had been addressed before but did not find anything.

So the bonus DR from Dragon totem would not be applied to your DR from Invulnerable rager because you do not have barbarian damage reduction you have invulnerable rager invulnerability.

There's a FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qto) for that.


Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?

It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)

DR/- is still DR/-
You are a Barbarian with Damage Reduction, that's all that matters.