I wish the Psychic Warrior didn't suck.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Seriously. I made a 20 Psychic Warrior and a 10 Fighter/10 Psion and the latter was far more powerful. The Psychic Warrior seems to be completely pointless. Taking half levels in fighter gave me access to fighter feats and the Psion gives a wider variety of powers that made it so the character could do more in battle. Of course, maybe I just made a crappy Psychic Warrior. Is the Psychic Warrior just bad?

[tyckspoon]

You made a crappy Psychic Warrior. I'd need more information on exactly how you tried to build to say just what you did wrong, but yeah, I'm pretty comfortable saying you made a crappy psychic warrior - Fighter 10/Anything 10 should never be better than a class with a straight-through progression. (Now, Ranger/Psion/Slayer makes a pretty decent psigish, and can be argued to be superior to Psychic Warrior in a number of ways.)

[ZamielVanWeber]

Fighter 10/Psion 10 has fewer powers known, fewer power points, fewer hit points, and additional feat, and overall same BaB as Psychic Warrior 20. I am confused as to how you got it to be better than Psychic Warrior 20, especially since the over breadth of feats is greater than a fighter's or a psion's alone.

[Silentone98]

I had a psychic warrior play in one f my games, but honestly feel a straight 20 level psion with melee built feats and powers/attributes could do better.(or maybe a lvl 2 fighter/18 psion?)

[Sith_Happens]

I had a psychic warrior play in one f my games, but honestly feel a straight 20 level psion with melee built feats and powers/attributes could do better.(or maybe a lvl 2 fighter/18 psion?)

Likely, but that's just a general full-casting/manifesting vs. not thing.

[Zombulian]

{{Scrubbed}}

[Zetapup]

I had a psychic warrior play in one f my games, but honestly feel a straight 20 level psion with melee built feats and powers/attributes could do better.(or maybe a lvl 2 fighter/18 psion?)

Well, psions are a higher tier so they can usually do anything a lower tier class can do, sometimes better. Psions also make ridiculously good damage sponges. Vigor + Shield Other with a psicrystal gives them a huge pool of temporary hit points, and they can regain power points through a few tricks.

Regarding the OP: to the best of my knowledge, psychic warriors are pretty good. They're tier 3, so they're usually not competing with a well built psion/other tier 2 class, but they should be better than a fighter 10/psion 10 in most cases. Have you looked at any psychic warrior handbooks? Those could help.

Knowing the builds for the psychic warrior 20 and the fighter 10/psion 10 could help us, as we'd be able to critique power choices, feats, etc.

[Fax Celestis]

My reaction upon seeing this thread title:

http://www.meganotravels.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Wtf.gif

The psychic warrior has built-in pounce, built-in mobility (skate, hustle, etc.), built-in elemental and extra damage, built-in magical defenses, and gets two-thirds of the feats of the fighter. It qualifies for Expanded Knowledge if you want to get really fancy, is arguably less MAD than the fighter, and all for the cost of losing 1 HP/level and 5 points of BAB over its entire career. BAB, btw, is ridiculously overrated.

On top of that, it gets the easiest access to non-racial natural attacks outside of the totemist. It gets form of doom and breath of the black dragon. It gets prevenom weapon and strength of my enemy, which are ridiculously good on an archer.

The psychic warrior can buff, debuff, AoE, heal, crowd control, and remain independently melee-relevant at high levels. The fighter cannot: he has to rely on equipment and buddies for all of his bonuses.

Any trick the fighter can do, the psychic warrior can also do, albeit generally a level or two later. However, the fighter cannot do every trick the psychic warrior can. This is the very definition of being a higher tier class.

[bekeleven]

Psychic Warrior is the quintessential example of a balanced class. It rests exactly in the center of tier 3, no matter where you place the others. It rarely has abilities to mechanically trivialize encounters, but it's always capable of strong, meaningful contributions and (depending on build) never just gets shut down.

Yes, taking 10 levels in a tier 2 will make you better at some things. But a wizard 20 beats psywar 20 too. That doesn't mean they suck.

[eggynack]

Wish granted. I have used my magic to cause the old crappy psychic warrior to never have existed, and replaced it with a new psychic warrior, which is awesome. For those posters above me who are curious, there is an alternate universe in which the OP's post makes complete sense, but I kept the original post around in this universe so that I could explain what happened, despite the fact that the thread makes no sense anymore. You're welcome.

[Deophaun]

Wish granted. I have used my magic to cause the old crappy psychic warrior to never have existed, and replaced it with a new psychic warrior, which is awesome. For those posters above me who are curious, there is an alternate universe in which the OP's post makes complete sense, but I kept the original post around in this universe so that I could explain what happened, despite the fact that the thread makes no sense anymore. You're welcome.
Is that why people are out running green lights and people call their Newtons "smart phones?" What Have You Done!

Damn this keyboard. Who uses QWERTY layouts?

[eggynack]

Is that why people are out running green lights and people call their Newtons "smart phones?" What Have You Done!

Damn this keyboard. Who uses QWERTY layouts?
Hey, I just arbitrarily change things. If random stuff gets changed as a result, that's not my biz. It's not my biz at all.

[georgie_leech]

Hey, I just arbitrarily change things. If random stuff gets changed as a result, that's not my biz. It's not my biz at all.

Quick! Change it back! This universe has Chief Circle's katana fetish!

[eggynack]

Quick! Change it back! This universe has Chief Circle's katana fetish!
Even if I could change these events again, that already exists in all universes. Such is the way of things.

[Nihilarian]

Psychic Warrior's bonus feats can draw from fighter bonus feats. It can also take psionic feats, which are great. It can't take fighter exclusive feats, but those range from terrible to mediocre.

You cap at 5th level powers and 88 PP, the psychic warrior has 6th level powers and 127 PP (it does have one fewer power known, though). The PW list is tailor-made for a gish, and if you're willing to take 10 levels in fighter on your manifester you have no business being anything but a Gish.

The psion is running around with a manifester level of 10, so your powers will almost invariably be weaker than the psychic warrior's.

The psion's d4 HD means that you'll have less HP than the psychic warrior.

You get exactly 1 more feat than the psychic warrior, but you will be taking practiced manifester so you can raise your ML to 14 (still inferior to the Psychic Warrior)

Whatever progression you choose, it will feel a lot bumpier than PW 20.

I'm confused as to what exactly you could have seen that could possibly give you this impression. Fighter 10/Psion 10 is just about the least optimized method of making a psionic Gish. If, for whatever reason, psychic warrior was unavailable, I'd rather take ardent or wilder into slayer, or maybe Fighter 5/War Mind 5/Psychic Weapon Master 10 or something.

[georgie_leech]

Even if I could change these events again, that already exists in all universes. Such is the way of things.

Curses, a pox on his Authyr World-blending powers!

[Just to Browse]

I wish the psychic warrior got full BAB, better skills, and some actual class features. Bonus feats are so boring.

[Deophaun]

Quick! Change it back! This universe has Chief Circle's katana fetish!
Katana fetish? What?

Oh no.

You mean the Seven Zulu Warriors is now this? (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047478/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1)

Wait... what happened to Star Wars? Lightsabers? Oh sweet merciful Thor.

[Nihilarian]

I wish the psychic warrior got full BAB, better skills, and some actual class features. Bonus feats are so boring.No BAB increase, but the Pathfinder Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior) has class features.

[Just to Browse]

No BAB increase, but the Pathfinder Psychic Warrior (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/psychic-warrior) has class features.

Actually, that gets 2 additional skills (4+int from 2+int), which makes it nicer.

Dang, with SKR leaving Paizo, the DSP ToB clone, and a moderately interesting psychic warrior, I might have to switch to Pathfinder.

[Sith_Happens]

Quick! Change it back! This universe has Chief Circle's katana fetish!

On the bright side, these "Girl Scout cookie" things are delicious.

[Drelua]

I wish the psychic warrior got full BAB, better skills, and some actual class features. Bonus feats are so boring.

If you want a full BAB PsyWar, you could check out the Pathfinder Soulknife with the Gifted Blade archetype for some manifesting. It only goes up to level 3 powers, but you can change your list of powers known every day. The base PF Soulknife is actually really cool even without any archetypes, too.

[Crake]

Not sure if troll thread....

[Silentone98]

Not sure if troll thread....

nah... Inexperience happens.
quite often in fact...
maybe too often...

[Arbane]

On the bright side, these "Girl Scout cookie" things are delicious.

FYI, they're not actually made of girl scouts. A lot of people make that mistake.

[Kane0]

FYI, they're not actually made of girl scouts. A lot of people make that mistake.
I choose to believe that they are.

[Dimers]

(Psion/Fighter has) 5th level powers and 88 PP, the psychic warrior has 6th level powers and 127 PP.

And the psychic warrior gets twice as many stat-based bonus power points as the psion/fighter, because he has twice as many manifesting class levels. Assuming a level 20 build with, say, final manifesting stat of 26, that's 128 total PP compared to 207 total PP. On top of that, several powers cost less for psychic warrior to use than psion because they're rated as lower-level.

The 6th-level power list for a psychic warrior includes one of the more important abilities in the game, mind blank. And they can get quite a few more immunities with oak body. The psion10/fighter10 can't reach either of those.

A greater percentage of the psychic warrior's powers known are at high levels -- eight of the twenty may be 5th level or higher, compared with four out of twenty-one for the psion/fighter.

Finally, I also feel that the psychic warrior is less MAD, but that's because I consider good Wisdom pretty desirable for almost all my characters.

[rmnimoc]

FYI, they're not actually made of girl scouts. A lot of people make that mistake.

They aren't? Well....that makes things rather awkward...I'd like to take this chance to offer a formal apology to anyone who bought cookies from me at my last bake sale.....





No refunds.

[Yora]

You get exactly 1 more feat than the psychic warrior, but you will be taking practiced manifester so you can raise your ML to 14 (still inferior to the Psychic Warrior)

Whatever progression you choose, it will feel a lot bumpier than PW 20.

That's the real difference. PsyWar 20 gets ML 20; Psion 10/Fighter 10 only ML 10, ML 14 with Practiced Manifester. And the ability to augment higher makes a major difference.

[SiuiS]

Indeed. In a message from one of my players, who is looking at using psychic warrior for an archer build;

"Now that I looked at feats I may want after lv 10, we are looking at this for lv20 with four powers active: full round action to fire once using manyshot for four arrows. +69 to hit, weapon damage+27+4d6(if i expend psionic focus) per arrow. Targets armor bonus reduced by 4.

mind i would have a bunch to deal with concealment, ranged penalties and to be able to bounce shots around corners and what not.

Alternitively, i could go for high damage instead of accuracy. For that, reduce the attack bonus by about 16 and multiply the damage by 4.

this is another option /not/ another build. I think i would break the game less as a caster :/"


A psion is going to be easier to use, but they also entirely different goals. Playing a psychic warrior or gishrequires accepting melee scale math as something worth utilizing instead of bypassing, for instance. It depends on your goal.

[lord_khaine]

The psychic warrior has built-in pounce, built-in mobility (skate, hustle, etc.), built-in elemental and extra damage, built-in magical defenses, and gets two-thirds of the feats of the fighter. It qualifies for Expanded Knowledge if you want to get really fancy, is arguably less MAD than the fighter, and all for the cost of losing 1 HP/level and 5 points of BAB over its entire career. BAB, btw, is ridiculously overrated.

On top of that, it gets the easiest access to non-racial natural attacks outside of the totemist. It gets form of doom and breath of the black dragon. It gets prevenom weapon and strength of my enemy, which are ridiculously good on an archer.

The psychic warrior can buff, debuff, AoE, heal, crowd control, and remain independently melee-relevant at high levels. The fighter cannot: he has to rely on equipment and buddies for all of his bonuses.

Any trick the fighter can do, the psychic warrior can also do, albeit generally a level or two later. However, the fighter cannot do every trick the psychic warrior can. This is the very definition of being a higher tier class.

Did you miss the part about it being a fighter/psion? because you dont mention the psion part at all.

And i can actually see the OP point of view here, though i would personally go for a 8/12 split in that case, to get level 6 powers.

[Psycho Yuffie]

Whoa! Wasn't expecting this many responses. I thought my question was answered with the first reply: I made a bad build. I think Psychic Warrior is less pick up and play than most of the classes I'm used to. In order to make a good build, you really need to know what feats and powers to pick. Keep in mind, I'm not what you'd call a minmaxer. I usually go with a character concept, even if it doesn't result in a lot of damage, but just because that's what that character does.

I once had a character that was 14 Sorcerer/4 Rogue/2 Paladin of Freedom... My characters don't always make sense from a numbers stand point. What class my characters invest in depends more on what's going on in the game, their experiences, their past, and where they think they're going.

[prufock]

Fighter 10/Psion 10 has fewer powers known, fewer power points, fewer hit points, and additional feat, and overall same BaB as Psychic Warrior 20.

You're wrong about the striked part. Psion 10 alone gets 21 powers known, psychic warrior 20 only gets 20. However psion has a lot less power points to spend on them, and is capped at level 5 powers instead of 6.

[Zombulian]

Whoa! Wasn't expecting this many responses. I thought my question was answered with the first reply: I made a bad build. I think Psychic Warrior is less pick up and play than most of the classes I'm used to. In order to make a good build, you really need to know what feats and powers to pick. Keep in mind, I'm not what you'd call a minmaxer. I usually go with a character concept, even if it doesn't result in a lot of damage, but just because that's what that character does.

I once had a character that was 14 Sorcerer/4 Rogue/2 Paladin of Freedom... My characters don't always make sense from a numbers stand point. What class my characters invest in depends more on what's going on in the game, their experiences, their past, and where they think they're going.

And there's nothing wrong with that playstyle, except it somehow led you to believe Psywar sucked. Live and learn though.

[ZamielVanWeber]

You're wrong about the striked part. Psion 10 alone gets 21 powers known, psychic warrior 20 only gets 20. However psion has a lot less power points to spend on them, and is capped at level 5 powers instead of 6.

I was tired and misread the table for psion AND gave Psychic Warriors Ardent progression. My bad. Hilariously I had a DM once try.to say a psywar was weaker than OPs set up. That list of differences sits heavily in PsyWars favor. (They are awesomely flexible in what they can do as well).

[The Glyphstone]

Whoa! Wasn't expecting this many responses. I thought my question was answered with the first reply: I made a bad build. I think Psychic Warrior is less pick up and play than most of the classes I'm used to. In order to make a good build, you really need to know what feats and powers to pick. Keep in mind, I'm not what you'd call a minmaxer. I usually go with a character concept, even if it doesn't result in a lot of damage, but just because that's what that character does.

I once had a character that was 14 Sorcerer/4 Rogue/2 Paladin of Freedom... My characters don't always make sense from a numbers stand point. What class my characters invest in depends more on what's going on in the game, their experiences, their past, and where they think they're going.


And there's nothing wrong with that playstyle, except it somehow led you to believe Psywar sucked. Live and learn though.

And knowing is half the battle.

(The other half is red and blue lasers).

[Person_Man]

When evaluating a class, remember that the chassis of BAB, Skills, armor, and even it's progression relative to other classes, is secondary to it's selection of subsytem abilities. Spells, powers, maneuvers, vestiges, soulmelds, wildshape forms, or whatever. In particular, pay attention to what the class can do at any given level.

The Psychic Warrior is a classic example of this. On the surface, it may seem inferior to the Psion, Psion/Slayer, Whatever/Warmind, etc. But then when you actually read through it's power selection, you realize that it can do many really cool things at each level, and that by default it has access to many powers that the Psion must spend Feats to access. And the Psychic Warrior's Bonus Feats, when combined with psionic buffs, means that it can accomplish many melee combos (Trip, Grapple, Bull Rush, etc) better and sooner then many other classes. It's generally held up as a model of balance and good design.

Another example of this is the Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1). It doesn't seem like much of a prestige class, and appears to suffer from the classic Monk problem of trying to be good at lots of things but sucking at all of them. 1st through 6th level spells at ECL 6-15 seems terribly slow, right? But then when you actually read through it's abilities, you realize that it can cast spells from any class. This includes the Paladin, Ranger, Bard, Hexblade, and every prestige class. Plus your "floating" Bonus Feat can give you access to a different ToB maneuver/stance or MoI soulmeld/chakra bind every day.

[Vanitas]

OP, as you said it yourself, looks like you just built a bad psychic warrior.
As for the regulars harassing you, use fire and acid.

[Nihilarian]

If you want to know more about the Psychic Warrior, there are handbooks.

3.5 Psychic Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162701)
PF Psychic Warrior (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kM0wGV_JnkCU6cYAdLFP-vzlPvU4PNDLR3rDMQBX-9Y/mobilebasic?pli=1)

[The Oni]

They aren't? Well....that makes things rather awkward...I'd like to take this chance to offer a formal apology to anyone who bought cookies from me at my last bake sale.....

No refunds.

If your pastries don't require an alignment check, they aren't REAL Girl Scout cookies. Buy local! Buy authentic!

[Artillery]

Pathfinder Psychic Warrior doesn't suck and neither does 3.5 Psy Warrior. Going straight for 20 levels just isn't optimal in any case really.

Psion 10/Fighter 10 is worse than any prestige class that advances manifesting. Slayer and Anarchic Initiate for instance. Warmind is also good but has seperate manifesting.

Psion 10/Slayer 10 gets 15 BAB and ML19.
PsyWarrior 10/Slayer 10 gets 17 BAB and ML19.

Big fan of Pathfinder Warmind letting you advance Psychic Warrior. Sweeping Strike is great for a Psywarrior, but more power and pp tend to be more helpful than more BAB.

That is not even getting into the fact that he has a number of the powers on his class list people go out of there way for, such as Claws of the Beast, Metaphysical claw/weapon, Prevenom/Truevenom, etc.

[Nihilarian]

Psychic Warrior 20 is perfectly viable in both systems.

In 3.5 you probably do want to PRC out because it doesn't really have any class features. In Pathfinder it's less clear cut, because you'll be losing Path abilities.

[Rejusu]

Whoa! Wasn't expecting this many responses. I thought my question was answered with the first reply: I made a bad build. I think Psychic Warrior is less pick up and play than most of the classes I'm used to. In order to make a good build, you really need to know what feats and powers to pick.

Really then the statement you should be making is: "I wish my psychic warrior didn't suck."

What really confuses me is that second statement though. In order to make a good build out of a multi class Psion/Fighter you still need to know what feats and powers to pick. Even more so than the Psychic Warrior because you end up with one more feat and power over a twenty level progression. I'm confused how you could make a bad enough PW and a good enough Psion/Fighter to think that the latter is superior. I'd be really interested in seeing the character sheets for these.

[Dimers]

In order to make a good build, you really need to know what feats and powers to pick. Keep in mind, I'm not what you'd call a minmaxer. I usually go with a character concept, even if it doesn't result in a lot of damage, but just because that's what that character does.

Good reason to use a psion instead of a psychic warrior, there -- you're much more likely to find powers that seem to fit a character concept. But if your character concept includes being really good at damage thanks to the power of your mind, psychic warrior fits the bill.

The class isn't as straightforward as it's presented here. There aren't a lot of terrible options, but being aware of the amazing ones takes some exposure, and you do benefit greatly from planning things out ahead of time rather than letting the character build itself organically.