Giving low level spells to Tier 4 and Tier 5? Would this help balance?

[Ramza00]

So from a balance perspective how balanced would it be to give "low level spells" to tiers 4 and 5. Now when I say "spells" I am not talking actual spells, but instead magic items similar to eternal wands which tier 4 and 5 get as class features (in addition to their wealth by level). These items are treated as unslotted items that can be added to free to any other magic item the tier 4 or tier 5 class possess. A page boy who is training to become a knight discovers a magic scabbard that allows 1 blow to strike true if he says the magic words (true strike), or a magic helm that gives him wings for a few minutes each day if he makes the right gestures(alter self), eventually he even discovers a necklace that allows him to sway even a king (suggestion), etc.

These spells are treated as having caster level equal to your ecl. The save for them is 10+Spell Level+Your Charisma Modifier or 10+Spell Level which ever is higher.

For how many I magic item/spells I am thinking something like this (see table below), in effect you get 1 level of spells every 4 levels, ending up with 4th level spells at level 16 and 1 5th level spell at level 20.

If your Tier 4 you can only pick wizard, cleric, or druid as your spell list.
If your Tier 5 you can mix and match wizard, cleric, and druid as your spell list.

{table=head] Level | 1st Level | 2nd Level | 3rd Level | 4th Level | 5th Level
1 | — | — | — | — | —
2 | — | — | — | — | —
3 | — | — | — | — | —
4 | 1 | — | — | — | —
5 | 1 | — | — | — | —
6 | 1 | — | — | — | —
7 | 2 | — | — | — | —
8 | 2 | 1 | — | — | —
9 | 2 | 1 | — | — | —
10 | 2 | 1 | — | — | —
11 | 3 | 2 | — | — | —
12 | 3 | 2 | 1 | — | —
13 | 3 | 2 | 1 | — | —
14 | 3 | 2 | 1 | — | —
15 | 4 | 3 | 2 | — | —
16 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | —
17 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | —
18 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | —
19 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | —
20 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1
[/table]

[SinsI]

Can they switch the chosen spells?
How many uses of each spell per day?
How big of a WBL increase for them is that?
(i.e. with 1 use/day at lvl 4 it is 1*4*1800/5 = 360 gold)
7% increase in WBL won't do much...

At lvl 11 it is:
(3 + 2*2) * 11 * 1800/5 = 27 720 gold
42% increase in WBL, but with restrictions.

At lvl 20 it is:

(5+4*2+3*3+2*4+1*5)*20*1800/5 = 252,000 gold
33% increase in WBL, with restrictions.

[Ramza00]

Can they switch the chosen spells?
How many uses of each spell per day?
How big of a WBL increase for them is that?

I would not allow them to swap it out per day. They gain a magic item that replicates a spell, it is now a permanent part of their. Maybe they can swap it out when they level up but not until them.

1 use per day for each spell. If you want multiple uses you get multiple magic items (for example at level 7 you may want two uses of grease instead of just 1 use, but because you picked two uses of grease you can't get 1 enlarge person and 1 grease.) In addition you do not get any bonus spells, these are not technically spells but instead magic items that replicate spells

I haven't figured out the wealth by level, it shouldn't be hard, but I haven't gotten out the excel yet, will respond later.

[Silentone98]

hmmm,.... im not sure I would bother if I were you. Theres other class's made specifically to be 'like' the other lower tiers but better to bring them up in tier.

and this discounts the fact that, while a tier 5 will likely never scratch the tier 1 mark- character build and in game choices/gear/stuff(ect) go extremely far in changing how one character stacks up against another.
Even the Tier chart itself states that its not a "who can beat who into a bloody pulp" but rather, who has a method of solving each individual situation.

with that said, player ingenuity goes a long way. You'd be surprised what you can do as a level 1 peasant with a ball of yarn, a stick, and a needle.

[Ramza00]

and this discounts the fact that, while a tier 5 will likely never scratch the tier 1 mark- character build and in game choices/gear/stuff(ect) go extremely far in changing how one character stacks up against another.

The goal is not to increase their total power (tier 4 can be quite powerful and one shot enemies), nor is it to give it the versatility of tier 1 or 2, but if it can make a tier 4 or 5 more similar to a tier 3 in versatility then I think it would be okay.

[SinsI]

Will previously given spells scale in level?

[Silentone98]

well yea then... as per my statement... you should probably look at the many class's already available in that tier and see which ones most closely resemble the class from Tier 4 or 5.

And if you don't want what's there, at least you have guidelines.


I dislike the idea of free items that are nearly equivalent to bind on equipables/ and/or trinkets from WoW... that's seriously the thought im having lol.
although D&D already has things very similar to that all over, it's weird having a hand out to compensate for a class.

But if you can make it work and its what you want, your the DM, go for it.

[Zetapup]

How does this work with multiclassing? For example, let's say you have 7 levels of a tier 4 class and take a level of a tier 5 class. What happens? Do you get a second level spell that you can pick from the wizard or cleric or druid spell list or do you get a 2nd level spell from the class you originally chose for spell list or do you get no spell at all? Or something different?

What happens if a higher tier class takes one of these magic items from the lower tier class? What happens if a class of the same or lower tier takes one of these magic items from the person? Can they use the item to cast the spell?

It seems reasonably balanced and I'd be willing to allow it in one of my games. I feel like one use of each spell per day is a bit low, but that's mostly personal opinion.

[Ramza00]

So I am putting up a big table, the table on the left would be the effective wealth by level increase if the spells didn't scale (a true strike has the same effect at caster level 1 or caster level 20). The numbers on the right are the table if the spell scales with caster level (greater magic weapon.) So think of this as a lowest cost vs highest cost.

The formula for the cost of the spell is equal to Spell Level * Caster Level*1800/5

{table=head] 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | Total | ___ | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | Total
— | — | — | — | — | — | ___ | — | — | — | — | — | —
— | — | — | — | — | — | ___ | — | — | — | — | — | —
— | — | — | — | — | — | ___ | — | — | — | — | — | —
360 | — | — | — | — | 360 | ___ | 1,440 | — | — | — | — | 1,440
360 | — | — | — | — | 360 | ___ | 1,800 | — | — | — | — | 1,800
360 | — | — | — | — | 360 | ___ | 2,160 | — | — | — | — | 2,160
720 | — | — | — | — | 720 | ___ | 5,040 | — | — | — | — | 5,040
720 | 2,160 | — | — | — | 2,880 | ___ | 5,760 | 5,760 | — | — | — | 11,520
720 | 2,160 | — | — | — | 2,880 | ___ | 6,480 | 6,480 | — | — | — | 12,960
720 | 2,160 | — | — | — | 2,880 | ___ | 7,200 | 7,200 | — | — | — | 14,400
1,080 | 4,320 | — | — | — | 5,400 | ___ | 11,880 | 15,840 | — | — | — | 27,720
1,080 | 4,320 | 5,400 | — | — | 10,800 | ___ | 12,960 | 17,280 | 12,960 | — | — | 43,200
1,080 | 4,320 | 5,400 | — | — | 10,800 | ___ | 14,040 | 18,720 | 14,040 | — | — | 46,800
1,080 | 4,320 | 5,400 | — | — | 10,800 | ___ | 15,120 | 20,160 | 15,120 | — | — | 50,400
1,440 | 6,480 | 10,800 | — | — | 18,720 | ___ | 21,600 | 32,400 | 32,400 | — | — | 86,400
1,440 | 6,480 | 10,800 | 10,080 | — | 28,800 | ___ | 23,040 | 34,560 | 34,560 | 23,040 | — | 115,200
1,440 | 6,480 | 10,800 | 10,080 | — | 28,800 | ___ | 24,480 | 36,720 | 36,720 | 24,480 | — | 122,400
1,440 | 6,480 | 10,800 | 10,080 | — | 28,800 | ___ | 25,920 | 38,880 | 38,880 | 25,920 | — | 129,600
1,800 | 8,640 | 16,200 | 20,160 | — | 46,800 | ___ | 34,200 | 54,720 | 61,560 | 54,720 | — | 205,200
1,800 | 8,640 | 16,200 | 20,160 | 16,200 | 63,000 | ___ | 36,000 | 57,600 | 64,800 | 57,600 | 36,000 | 252,000
[/table]

[SinsI]

As you can see, there are two extremely sharp jumps - level 11 and 12.
OTOH, you get nothing or next to nothing from 10 to 11...

For spells that scale with caster level like Greater Magic Weapon you might prefer to use the cost equal to Spell level^2*1000 (cost of appropriate Pearl of Power).

[Just to Browse]

A) This would certainly help, and at higher levels they might even eclipse T3s because level 4 spells include solid fog, black tentacles, and divine power and level 3 spells include fly and haste.

B) Like with all things designed by WotC, quality control is all over the place. Weapons that cast fireball at will are awesome-sounding but ineffective (read: trap options) while a bauble that lets you use blinding spittle, wraithstrike, or swift invisibilty at-will is unnecessarily strong, even at level 8. This disparity encourages dumpster diving and discourages cool concepts, and I really don't like that.

C) If you're looking for a simple solution, the better option is to take classes on a case-by-case basis. The fighter can pick up Zhentarim/Resolute/Dungeon Crasher and needs absolutely no help in combat, but he is crying for out-of-combat powers. On the other hand, the ranger has got plenty of out-of-combat abilities but deals crap for damage. There is no "one size fits all" solution that will help both without giving the other

[Ramza00]

How does this work with multiclassing? For example, let's say you have 7 levels of a tier 4 class and take a level of a tier 5 class. What happens? Do you get a second level spell that you can pick from the wizard or cleric or druid spell list or do you get a 2nd level spell from the class you originally chose for spell list or do you get no spell at all? Or something different?
The difference between tier 4 and tier 5 is effectiveness. I can easily make an effective fighter or monk that is good as a barbarian and thus in reality should be a tier 4, same thing with a tier 4 I can make it sucky so in reality it is a tier 5. The DM should go by ear in such a situation.

What happens if a higher tier class takes one of these magic items from the lower tier class? What happens if a class of the same or lower tier takes one of these magic items from the person? Can they use the item to cast the spell?
The whole idea is that these are unique abilities added to the tier 4 and tier 5 repertoire. The reason why they are magic items and not spells per say is some classes flavor should not allow them to learn magic, but in D&D almost all characters will be using magic items. Thus these "spells" / "magic items" should be unique and not traded or given away to other players in the party.

As you can see, there are two extremely sharp jumps - level 11 and 12.
OTOH, you get next nothing or next to nothing from 10 to 11...

The table can be massaged if you can think of a different progression that makes rational sense.

Pretty much it was getting a spell every 4 levels (similar to ranger or paladin). Though you get your second spell 3 levels in (thus a 2nd 1st level spell at level 7, 2nd 2nd level spell at level 11, 2nd 3rd level spell at level 15, etc).

I could easily made it 1st level spell at 4th, 2nd 1st level spell at 6th instead if the numbers make more sense, or something completely different.

[SinsI]

What if you have taken Vow of Powerty?

Giving spells at lvl 20 is absolutely wrong.

[Ramza00]

A) This would certainly help, and at higher levels they might even eclipse T3s because level 4 spells include solid fog, black tentacles, and divine power and level 3 spells include fly and haste.
Remember you are not getting 3rd level spells until level 12, and even then you only get 1 per day. At later levels you get a couple more, but it is only a few spells in reality.

At level 16 the time you get polymorph, solid fog, black tentacles, divine power the main casters are throwing out level 8 and level 9 spells, and a bard would be able to cast its 6th level spells. At the same time at level 16 solid fog and black tentacles would be counter by some enemies with freedom of movement. At level 16 a 3/4 bab character would have a bab of 12 thus you get a +4 to attack, an extra attack, and some str and free hit points. A lot of full bab charcters are tier 4 so some wouldn't even get the free attack or the attack bonus.


B) Like with all things designed by WotC, quality control is all over the place. Weapons that cast fireball at will are awesome-sounding but ineffective (read: trap options) while a bauble that lets you use blinding spittle, wraithstrike, or swift invisibilty at-will is unnecessarily strong, even at level 8. This disparity encourages dumpster diving and discourages cool concepts, and I really don't like that.
These spell are not at will, they are once a day. Giving any character free reign of the resources can possibly cause dumpster diving. Do you also not allow magic marts, free choice of feats, free choice of spells, etc?


C) If you're looking for a simple solution, the better option is to take classes on a case-by-case basis. The fighter can pick up Zhentarim/Resolute/Dungeon Crasher and needs absolutely no help in combat, but he is crying for out-of-combat powers. On the other hand, the ranger has got plenty of out-of-combat abilities but deals crap for damage. There is no "one size fits all" solution that will help both without giving the other
That is one reason I would like the player character pick their own spells. Some players would pick wraithstrike and be able to get an awesome attack 1 to 4 times a day, others would pick a skill booster.

[Ramza00]

What if you have taken Vow of Powerty?

Giving spells at lvl 20 is absolutely wrong.
Vow of Poverty, what is that feat? Seriously I don't like vow of poverty for some things can't be replicated via the vow, and you honestly need magic items to play D&D as intended. If you want vow of poverty, honestly take the feat ancestral relic, pretend you donated the wealth to charity, and then create a magic item that is to your needs.

In all seriousness though, these are called items for flavor reasons, there is no real reason they can't be something that is magical but without wealth, such as rune letters that are etched into your skin by the fey, or something to that effect.

[Ramza00]

For spells that scale with caster level like Greater Magic Weapon you might prefer to use the cost equal to Spell level^2*1000 (cost of appropriate Pearl of Power).

So this is cheaper as soon as caster level is 3 times the spell level or higher. Thus a 3rd level spell should use the formally I gave originally if the caster level is 5 to 8, but if the caster level is 9 to 20 it should the Pearl of Power formula. Her is the math for the pearl of power formula.

{table=head] LVL | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th | Total
1 | — | — | — | — | — | 0
2 | — | — | — | — | — | 0
3 | — | — | — | — | — | 0
4 | 1,000 | — | — | — | — | 1,000
5 | 1,000 | — | — | — | — | 1,000
6 | 1,000 | — | — | — | — | 1,000
7 | 2,000 | — | — | — | — | 2,000
8 | 2,000 | 4,000 | — | — | — | 6,000
9 | 2,000 | 4,000 | — | — | — | 6,000
10 | 2,000 | 4,000 | — | — | — | 6,000
11 | 3,000 | 8,000 | — | — | — | 11,000
12 | 3,000 | 8,000 | 9,000 | — | — | 20,000
13 | 3,000 | 8,000 | 9,000 | — | — | 20,000
14 | 3,000 | 8,000 | 9,000 | — | — | 20,000
15 | 4,000 | 12,000 | 18,000 | — | — | 34,000
16 | 4,000 | 12,000 | 18,000 | 16,000 | — | 50,000
17 | 4,000 | 12,000 | 18,000 | 16,000 | — | 50,000
18 | 4,000 | 12,000 | 18,000 | 16,000 | — | 50,000
19 | 5,000 | 16,000 | 27,000 | 32,000 | — | 80,000
20 | 5,000 | 16,000 | 27,000 | 32,000 | 25,000 | 105,000
[/table]

[Just to Browse]

Remember you are not getting 3rd level spells until level 12, and even then you only get 1 per day. At later levels you get a couple more, but it is only a few spells in reality.

At level 16 the time you get polymorph, solid fog, black tentacles, divine power the main casters are throwing out level 8 and level 9 spells, and a bard would be able to cast its 6th level spells. At the same time at level 16 solid fog and black tentacles would be counter by some enemies with freedom of movement. At level 16 a 3/4 bab character would have a bab of 12 thus you get a +4 to attack, an extra attack, and some str and free hit points. A lot of full bab charcters are tier 4 so some wouldn't even get the free attack or the attack bonus.Are you trying to make these people on par with tier 2 casters? I thought this was making people tier 3. If you're worried about broaching tier 2, then don't be because these guys are still way behind the sorcerer and favored soul.

However, a tier 3 totally gets eclipsed by the spells. No middling class can match the power of solid fog / black tentacles except the hexblade (who gets it). A bard's level 6 spells are low-save SoDs and impressive yet lackluster buffs. Hand blink to a rogue and he is better than the factotum and swordsage in almost every conceivable way. Give divine power to the warmage and watch him laugh at the duskblade's puny damage.


These spell are not at will, they are once a day. Giving any character free reign of the resources can possibly cause dumpster diving. Do you also not allow magic marts, free choice of feats, free choice of spells, etc?If they're once per day, then they have the same problems but also encourage the five-minute workday. Even worse.

And dumpster diving for feats or magic items or wizard spells is nowhere near as problematic as dumpster diving across the three largest spell lists in the entire game. Combinations scale exponentially, so the magnitude of potential abuse (and the number of trap options) will also scale exponentially. That's not good.


That is one reason I would like the player character pick their own spells. Some players would pick wraithstrike and be able to get an awesome attack 1 to 4 times a day, others would pick a skill booster.You need to look at that point again. A fighter picking up wraithstrike is kind of wasting his time, but players of fighters will totally do that because it sounds cool, and then they will be just as bad as they were before except now they also deal too much damage for their level.