Quick Question about Blackguards

[Azukar]

Since it's shaping up to be an important possibility in OotS, I'm wondering (as a person who knows next to nil on the subtleties of D&D) what makes Blackguards so good? Strength to make Superman blink? Mystical powers that would have V defecting to ally him/herself with Miko? Hmm...

[Darkshade]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/blackguard.htm


the blackguard

[Maxymiuk]

Let's see...

Poison use - Shank your enemies with Con poison and laugh.
Dark Blessing - The evil version of Divine Grace. Laugh in the face of spells that require a save.
Aura of Despair - Reduce your enemy's saves. No save. Helps with the poison shanking.
Fiendish servant - Your new steed or combat aide.
Sneak Attack - Shank from the shadows, or when flanking with your servant.

And a number of other skills and abilities, less or more useful, depending on the situation.

[Darkshade]

it's really the fallen paladin bit that roxors.
and the aura of despair can be really bad if you are surrounded by 24 blackguards...
-48 to all saves.

[Azukar]

Cheers to both, but I've looked over the SRD description of Blackguards and all I see is a bunch of numbers. Can anyone explain what makes them so good?

[Maxymiuk]

So what exactly do you want? Fluff? A tactical breakdown of a hypothetical fight between a blackguard and some other class?

[Azukar]

Bah, never mind. Your description was good enough. I'm assuming therefore that they're pretty heavy on class abilities and skills, they're combat-oriented with limited spellcasting ability, and there's something, presumably their strength (?) that makes them truly fearsome to fetch up against.

[Maxymiuk]

Sadly, they suffer from the MAD disorder of paladins. They need the strength and constitution to be a force in melee, wisdom for spells, charisma for saves... and they still only get the 2+Int skill points per level despite having an expanded skill list in comparison to the fighter or paladin. Their abilities make them an excellent BBEG, or at least the BBEG's lieutenant, but as a PC they're basically a negative version of the paladin with, arguably, somewhat better abilities and far less restrictions.

[Roderick_BR]

A common misconception is that people thinks that an ex-paladin gains more than others classes. What it does is compensate you for the paladin powers you can't use anymore, since if you play a fighter, or wizard, you don't lose any power from going evil.
Blackguard is pretty much an evil paladin. Works for a higher power, champion of evil, etc etc

[Darkshade]

they are pretty heavy on being an evil version of paladin with an evil minion thing instead of a mount.
works even better if you used to be a paladin.
good smite attack, full b.a.b. great saves if built properly, CHA is important, not so heavy on skills and sucky spells
sneak attack is good but not always useable.
good hit die good base fort save.
they make good front liners the same way a paladin does, except they work even better with magey back up since they penalize their opponents saves.



a dream team of evil....
Fallen Paladin 10/Blackguard 10
Hexblade 20 (with PHB2 Dark Companion Variant)
Cleric 5/ Divine Oracle 10/ Contemplative 5
Beguiler 10/ Mindbender 10
Spellthief 20

sure there are other ways to go but the hexblade and blackguard work very well together as frontline fighters who instantly soak 4 points off of an enemys saves, with no save to resist, throw on the hexblades greater curse for another -6 to all saves (when it works) the spellthief stealing spells like a a-hole and the casters watching as no one can make their saves.

[Darkshade]

A common misconception is that people thinks that an ex-paladin gains more than others classes. What it does is compensate you for the paladin powers you can't use anymore, since if you play a fighter, or wizard, you don't lose any power from going evil.
Blackguard is pretty much an evil paladin. Works for a higher power, champion of evil, etc etc

on some level you have a point, but your fallen paladin levels stack with your blackguard levels for smite good, yeah it replaces the lost smite evil but it also allows you to advance it in a prestige class, and if you dont have previous paladin levels then your smite isnt going to be as good. also the extra minion sort of replaces remove disease 1/week, yeah... good riddance

[oriong]

Bah, never mind. Your description was good enough. I'm assuming therefore that they're pretty heavy on class abilities and skills, they're combat-oriented with limited spellcasting ability, and there's something, presumably their strength (?) that makes them truly fearsome to fetch up against.

What gives you the impression that they're generally that fearsome? More so than say a barbarian or a fighter? They're no more powerful than any other prestige classes, and a lot weaker than most since their major abilities are typically just mirror images of a paladin's (a PC class, rather than a prestige class).

They get a few new abilities but they're fairly random (sneak attack, good attack bonus and hit points, minion, and some 'status effects' from their aura, and minor spellcasting).

They're unfocused (except on 'evil' I suppose) which is rarely a good recipe in D+D.

[Thomas]

What makes blackguards fearsome?

Hahaha.

Nothing. They suck. They're worse than paladins, and paladin is a class you should never take past level 5.

Anyone who wanted to actually function as an anti-paladin should make an arrangement with the DM to switch those 5 paladin levels for paladin of tyranny/slaughter (from UA) levels, and then keep taking Pious Templar (or another suitable prestige class).

[Saph]

Bah, never mind. Your description was good enough. I'm assuming therefore that they're pretty heavy on class abilities and skills, they're combat-oriented with limited spellcasting ability, and there's something, presumably their strength (?) that makes them truly fearsome to fetch up against.

I think I see what you're getting at . . . you're wondering why people talk about them so much?

It's for flavour reasons, not game-mechanics reasons. Game-mechanics wise, the Blackguard's just an average prestige class, not overpowered or underpowered. But in terms of flavour it's outright scary - you're dealing with a guy who's actually dedicated his entire life to evil, as opposed to someone who just wants to rob you and take your stuff.

It's especially bad if they're a fallen paladin, because then they're an example of someone who was originally good corrupted into his or her mirror opposite. Blackguards are like PCs gone wrong - they represent what could happen to your good-aligned character if you make the wrong decisions. Think Darth Vader.

- Saph

[Closet_Skeleton]

I always wondered what I was supposed to do with the second companion. I already have a fiendish mount so why to I want a skeleton one as well?

There aren't any Chariot rules in DnD are there?

[Thomas]

There were some in Sword & Fist. Probably some in the Arms & Equipment Guide, too.

[Person_Man]

I agree Roderick. Blackguard is pretty much an evil Paladin. In fact, I've always thought that Paladins should be a similar prestige class.

At high levels, my PC's usually have high AC and strong hitpoints. So I've found that my PC's are usually killed by failed saves. A Gold Dwarf Hexblade/Blackguard fixes that problem, while allowing you to be an excellent de-buff to your enemies and decent melee combat abilities. Blackguards, Paladins, Rangers, and Assassins also have some phenominal spells in the expansion books, which help out immensely.

FYI, there's an excellent Fear based prestige class in Comp Scoundral called the Avenging Executioner. It synergizes very well with Hexblade, Blackguard, and Disciple of the Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=2).

[JaronK]

Mechanically, they're only really strong if you stack their aura with other auras... Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Blackgaurd 3/Ur-Priest 10 is a basic stub that, with the Dark Companion substitution for the Hexblade, means that anyone who gets close to you is at -6 to their saves, allowing your spells to get through with little to no problems (and your party members can likewise rip through the resistance of that target).

JaronK

[Shhalahr Windrider]

it's really the fallen paladin bit that roxors.
and the aura of despair can be really bad if you are surrounded by 24 blackguards...
-48 to all saves.
Doesn't work that way. Even untyped bonuses and penalties don't stack with each other if they are from the same source or effect (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking). And these all have the same source: Aura of Despair.

[Sactheminions]

What makes blackguards fearsome?

Hahaha.

Nothing. They suck. They're worse than paladins, and paladin is a class you should never take past level 5.

Anyone who wanted to actually function as an anti-paladin should make an arrangement with the DM to switch those 5 paladin levels for paladin of tyranny/slaughter (from UA) levels, and then keep taking Pious Templar (or another suitable prestige class).

Level 4 is the Paladin drop point. The multiclassing restriction is a joke, you'd never -want- to come back.

[Renegade Paladin]

Heh. Sure, go ahead. Take "paladin" of tyranny/slaughter. I'm sure the DM will enjoy the look on your face the instant you do anything to help another person and instantly fall (or is that rise? :smallamused:).

[Person_Man]

Level 4 is the Paladin drop point. The multiclassing restriction is a joke, you'd never -want- to come back.

Level 4 is not necessarily the Paladin exit point.

If you buy the Spell Compedium (or just a bunch of books) there are plenty of Paladin (and Blackguard) exclusive spells, which are sometimes much more powerful then their spell level suggests. Your mount can grow to be potent as well, and if you invest a feat in him you can easily be riding around on a buffed dragon or unicorn or something similar. And your Turn Undead ability is quite respectable too, giving you a huge edge against a popular foe. And heck, what's not to like about a little extra Smite Damage? If you leave for a prestige class, most, if not all, of those abilities stops progressing.

Sometimes its a good choice. Sometimes its not. It depends on what you want your PC to do.

[SpiderBrigade]

Heh. Sure, go ahead. Take "paladin" of tyranny/slaughter. I'm sure the DM will enjoy the look on your face the instant you do anything to help another person and instantly fall (or is that rise? :smallamused:).

Like what? D&D morality is a lot more forgiving of evil than it is of good. Evil clerics can heal their evil minions, and that's not a "good" act. Helping your party kill a red dragon is not inherently good. You might get into trouble if you take on a quest to save little orphan children from werewolves, or something, but a clever player can find a way to turn that to evil as well.

The Paladin of Tyranny code specifically mentions "helping only those who maintain or advance his status." That definitely includes party members, and probably includes any NPCs who are offering a reward for a certain task.

[Renegade Paladin]

Like what? D&D morality is a lot more forgiving of evil than it is of good. Evil clerics can heal their evil minions, and that's not a "good" act. Helping your party kill a red dragon is not inherently good. You might get into trouble if you take on a quest to save little orphan children from werewolves, or something, but a clever player can find a way to turn that to evil as well.

The Paladin of Tyranny code specifically mentions "helping only those who maintain or advance his status." That definitely includes party members, and probably includes any NPCs who are offering a reward for a certain task.
Seriously, think about it for one second. You may never commit a good act. Ever. Even if you intend it as part of the setup for a greater evil.

Evil, eschewing ends-justify-means morality? Who came up with this? Your character can't feel compassion towards anyone. He falls if he sends his mother a birthday card. He's required to betray all allies and minions the instant they stop being useful. (I'm sure that does wonders for party cohesion.)

The approach of simply mirroring the paladin to create evil champions is dumb. The paladin's abilities and Code-based approach is not suited for evil. They should have put more work into it; the failure of the designers in making those classes is nearly total. Hell, they even fall for ceasing to be lawful good; the variant says that it follows the original class's rules in all ways except as noted and there is no ex-paladin of whatever section. Which means it uses the ex-paladin rules in the PHB. :smallamused:

[Thomas]

Level 4 is the Paladin drop point. The multiclassing restriction is a joke, you'd never -want- to come back.

But I like mounts. And most prestige classes are available at level 5, not 4. But taking Pal 4/Fig 1 is quite viable, too. (Heck, better, if you don't like mounts.)


Heh. Sure, go ahead. Take "paladin" of tyranny/slaughter. I'm sure the DM will enjoy the look on your face the instant you do anything to help another person and instantly fall (or is that rise? :smallamused:).

Protip: avoid playing with people who interpret the alignment system this way. They are not smart people.

Nothing a person that evil does is a "good act," because it's all done for evil ends. Acts done for evil ends = evil acts.

"Problem" solved.

[Renegade Paladin]

Protip: avoid playing with people who interpret the alignment system this way. They are not smart people.

Nothing a person that evil does is a "good act," because it's all done for evil ends. Acts done for evil ends = evil acts.

"Problem" solved.
Then we turn it around: Nothing a person that's good does is an "evil act" because it's all done for good ends. Acts done for good ends = good acts.

It doesn't work. If anything anyone of X alignment does is always an action of X alignment, then there could never be a fallen paladin.

[Thomas]

It's plain not an issue when you apply some reason. A paladin can kill. That's defined as an inherently "evil act" (BoED), but doesn't cause them to fall. Helping someone may be an inherently good act, but is certainly of less inherent magnitude than killing. If killing doesn't cause paladins to fall, healing others doesn't cause paladins of tyranny/slaughter to fall.

[Zincorium]

Then we turn it around: Nothing a person that's good does is an "evil act" because it's all done for good ends. Acts done for good ends = good acts.

It doesn't work. If anything anyone of X alignment does is always an action of X alignment, then there could never be a fallen paladin.

Good and evil aren't mirrors of one another, which is why while I agree with you that there shouldn't be alternate paladins, they aren't going to 'rise' just because they're doing something that looks good.

I honestly can't imagine an anti-paladin doing anything for purely noble reasons. Save somebody's kid? Only if you're planning, before doing it, on gaining influence with the child and parent so you can leverage it later for your own benefit. Help a party member? If you're in a dungeon, it might be vital for your personal survival, and you're not gonna let yourself die just because 'ol snarky the rogue wasn't there to detect a trap.

Doing evil things for good reasons is very hard to justify, simply because evil is usually easier than good. Killing an innocent person to save someone who's questionable can't usually be justified as good. Saving an innocent person so you have a better shot at killing someone else is incredibly easy to justify as evil.

[Ted_Stryker]

As already mentioned, the PrC isn't particularly badass. I find that giving, say, a fire giant (especially if you give him the same point-buy/stat rolling method that PCs get) or a marilith (first advanced to 18 HD) 3 Blackguard levels is a nice way to give such creatures a little more punch and staying power. Dark Blessing kicks in there, and you can also give them Divine Might for a little extra pop.

[jono]

Since it's shaping up to be an important possibility in OotS, I'm wondering (as a person who knows next to nil on the subtleties of D&D) what makes Blackguards so good? Strength to make Superman blink? Mystical powers that would have V defecting to ally him/herself with Miko? Hmm...

There's nothing that really sets it above the crowd per-se. As everyone says it's basically an evil equivalent to a paladin.

The reason people are going on about it (in relation to Miko's actions of late I assume) is because the Blackguard class has special rules regarding Ex-paladins. Depending on how many levels you have in paladin, you can gain a number of bonus abilities in blackguard. If you have more than 10 paladin levels you can trade them all in instantly for 10 blackguard levels. The hype over blackguard at the moment is really because, under the rules, Miko could instantly replace her lost divine abilities with infernal ones.

[Azukar]

I think I see what you're getting at . . . you're wondering why people talk about them so much?

It's for flavour reasons, not game-mechanics reasons. Game-mechanics wise, the Blackguard's just an average prestige class, not overpowered or underpowered. But in terms of flavour it's outright scary - you're dealing with a guy who's actually dedicated his entire life to evil, as opposed to someone who just wants to rob you and take your stuff.


Question answered :smallsmile: Thanks muchly.
Everyone else can keep on going badmouthing character classes all they like; personally, if I was playing D&D, I'd be much more interested in creating a character than building a set of stats guaranteed to kill anything it wants. If you're not interested in telling a story, why the heck are you playing such a narrative-oriented game?

[Azukar]

The hype over blackguard at the moment is really because, under the rules, Miko could instantly replace her lost divine abilities with infernal ones.

See, now that's character.

[Renegade Paladin]

Good and evil aren't mirrors of one another, which is why while I agree with you that there shouldn't be alternate paladins, they aren't going to 'rise' just because they're doing something that looks good.

I honestly can't imagine an anti-paladin doing anything for purely noble reasons. Save somebody's kid? Only if you're planning, before doing it, on gaining influence with the child and parent so you can leverage it later for your own benefit. Help a party member? If you're in a dungeon, it might be vital for your personal survival, and you're not gonna let yourself die just because 'ol snarky the rogue wasn't there to detect a trap.

Doing evil things for good reasons is very hard to justify, simply because evil is usually easier than good. Killing an innocent person to save someone who's questionable can't usually be justified as good. Saving an innocent person so you have a better shot at killing someone else is incredibly easy to justify as evil.
I agree completely, but that's not what's written in the variants. It says status lost if you perform a good act.

And there's still the issue of it also saying to use the ex-paladin rules from the PHB since the paragraph wasn't adapted into the variants... which mean they all fall at the outset for not being lawful good. :smallbiggrin: There was no thought put into their design, none whatsoever.

[Thomas]

I agree completely, but that's not what's written in the variants. It says status lost if you perform a good act.

So by the same literal interpretation, a paladin cannot kill, cannot lie, cannot hurt or not help others (like, say, enemies)... ?

Doesn't make sense.

In practice, a paladin can kill an enemy. He can probably lie to save a life, and refuse to bandage a bleeding opponent who was just trying to kill him. A paladin of slaughter (I did prefer AD&D's anti-paladin, really; shorter) can spare someone's life, tell a truth, or help someone, if it's advantageous. An "anti-paladin" can't show genuine compassion, love, selflessness, and so on.

Edit: Should we get into the fallacy of assigning ethical (Good/Evil) values to such essentially neutral actions as helping an ally, too?

[AtomicKitKat]

Well, the main advantage of not converting all your Paladin levels over to Blackguard, is that it's mainly impossible to advance past Blackguard 10 before ECL21(at Paladin 20 or 21, you could reasonably change over all your levels to Blackguard 20, I guess)

Quick(but long) breakdown of differences:

Blackguard 20 vs Ex-Paladin 10/Blackguard 10

Blackguard 20 has: Smite Good 5/day, Sneak Attack 6d6, Bonus Feat*3
EPBG has: Smite Good 6/day, Sneak Attack 4d6, Lay on Hands, Summon Monster I 1/day(for whatever that is worth. Perhaps for a little extra flanking/distraction to make his escape?), and an Undead servant that is otherwise identical to the Fiendish servant(at least, as far as bonuses go).

So the main differences are:
Advantage Pure Blackguard: 2d6 Sneak Attack damage, 3 Bonus Feats.
Advantage EPBG: Lay on Hands, Extra Servant, 1 Smite Good/Day, Summon Monster I.

The advantage to the Ex-Paladin is mainly survivability(+2d6 Sneak Attack, as I've been told many times before, is only worth about 7 points of damage, against a limited number of foes). For the "Purist", it's 3 Bonus Feats(presumably, none of them can be Epic until you're 21, so if you wanted to, you could wait till ECL 21 before trading in all of your Paladinhood for Blackguard, and instantly reap 3 Bonus Epic Feats)

[Zincorium]

Um, since blackguard is a 10 level prestige class, you cannot have a level 20 blackguard pre epic.

[the_tick_rules]

i don't see miko going blackguard. but yeah they are basically the evil twin of a paladin. they're just as zealous, just for evil.