Fighter Fix: the Expert Fighter

[Rakaydos]

This arose from a discussion of the tier of an Expert//Fighter hybrid, so I thought I'd move it here once the suggested changes moved beyond that point.

The Fighter gains 6+int skill points per level, and has 10 useful skills added to it's list, chosen at character creation, in addition to the 7 that it already knows.

In addition, the fighter's feats can be chosen from any list. The feats at 6th, 12th, and 18th are replaced with a feat-like ability: can only be used on Fighter feats (plus similar feats from splats, though I dont have a list) but can be retrained on a daily basis.

The Expert Fighter gains skill training and build flexibility over the standard fighter, without locking into a "flavor" that may not fit a particular character. It also avoids all "anime" or "caster" capabilities that are complaned about for ToB.

Thoughts?

[Amnoriath]

This arose from a discussion of the tier of an Expert//Fighter hybrid, so I thought I'd move it here once the suggested changes moved beyond that point.

The Fighter gains 6+int skill points per level, and has 10 useful skills added to it's list, chosen at character creation, in addition to the 7 that it already knows.

In addition, the fighter's feats can be chosen from any list. The feats at 6th, 12th, and 18th are replaced with a feat-like ability: can only be used on Fighter feats (plus similar feats from splats, though I dont have a list) but can be retrained on a daily basis.

The Expert Fighter gains skill training and build flexibility over the standard fighter, without locking into a "flavor" that may not fit a particular character. It also avoids all "anime" or "caster" capabilities that are complaned about for ToB.

Thoughts?
Definitely more forgiving and useful. It is simple, an optimal tier 4 which should be just fine for most kind of play. Is it fantastic or unique, no, but it doesn't have to be.:smallsmile:

[Perseus]

This arose from a discussion of the tier of an Expert//Fighter hybrid, so I thought I'd move it here once the suggested changes moved beyond that point.

The Fighter gains 6+int skill points per level, and has 10 useful skills added to it's list, chosen at character creation, in addition to the 7 that it already knows.

In addition, the fighter's feats can be chosen from any list. The feats at 6th, 12th, and 18th are replaced with a feat-like ability: can only be used on Fighter feats (plus similar feats from splats, though I dont have a list) but can be retrained on a daily basis.

The Expert Fighter gains skill training and build flexibility over the standard fighter, without locking into a "flavor" that may not fit a particular character. It also avoids all "anime" or "caster" capabilities that are complaned about for ToB.

Thoughts?

Why is it when people think of ToB that they say caster or anime... Have these people never heard of Beowulf? Have they not heard of the Celtic warriors that were said to walk on the ends of enemies spears?

Why is it that a mundane like the fighter can't be high fantasy? What is so scary about mundanes not being stuck in low fantasy?

This wouldn't be a fix by any means, this fighter still can not keep up with the game.

[Alabenson]

Eh, granted it pushes Fighter into low Tier-4, but it also introduces a few new problems while doing virtually nothing to fix the biggest ones. The Fighter still has difficulty meaningfully contributing to combat after level 6-8, and attempting to take advantage of the increased skill points to contribute outside of combat creates MAD issues.

Yes, the out of combat utility is very much needed, but the Fighter's biggest problem has always been a complete lack of higher level combat options, and UMD only goes so far to fix that.

[BWR]

Why is it when people think of ToB that they say caster or anime... Have these people never heard of Beowulf? Have they not heard of the Celtic warriors that were said to walk on the ends of enemies spears?

Mostly it's due to the propensity for Eastern martial arts having to name everything.
Western: I hit him with my sword
Eastern: I strike using the Twin Sapphire of Painting Toe Technique
(yes, I know Western martial arts name a lot of stuff too, but there is a difference in types of names and number of names)

Beowulf grappled with Grendel, finally tearing his arm off. He didn't dance about using the Cunning Hummingbird to bewlider G. before striking with the Leviathan Strike, using his Lethal Bear Hug to grapple him and Cerulean Demon Dismemberment to rip his arm off.

[Rakaydos]

Eh, granted it pushes Fighter into low Tier-4, but it also introduces a few new problems while doing virtually nothing to fix the biggest ones. The Fighter still has difficulty meaningfully contributing to combat after level 6-8, and attempting to take advantage of the increased skill points to contribute outside of combat creates MAD issues.

Yes, the out of combat utility is very much needed, but the Fighter's biggest problem has always been a complete lack of higher level combat options, and UMD only goes so far to fix that.

So access to "better" feats doesnt cut it?

One other idea I had was explicitly breaking the WBL in the fighter's favor- Similar to the Saga edition's Noble "Wealth" Talent. At dead levels like 5,7, 11, 13, 17 and 19, the fighter finds, inherits, or unlocks XXX GP of magical items or improvements to his existing items.

[Alabenson]

So access to "better" feats doesnt cut it?

As written, no, not really. You're still hitting two of the major problems with the Fighter; 1) Anyone can take feats (and thus do the Fighter's job as well or better), and 2) The power offered by feats alone stops being relevant after about level 8.

What the Fighter really needs would be access to Fighter-only feats or abilities that are balanced against the sorts of spells and abilities that start showing up at levels 9+.

[Amnoriath]

Eh, granted it pushes Fighter into low Tier-4, but it also introduces a few new problems while doing virtually nothing to fix the biggest ones. The Fighter still has difficulty meaningfully contributing to combat after level 6-8, and attempting to take advantage of the increased skill points to contribute outside of combat creates MAD issues.

Yes, the out of combat utility is very much needed, but the Fighter's biggest problem has always been a complete lack of higher level combat options, and UMD only goes so far to fix that.

1. He can choose any 10 skills.
2. His bonus feats extends to all kinds of feats. Yes he has to qualify but you don't need to optimize stats to make use out of them unless you are competing with other characters for checks.
Is this a great fix, no. However it is simple without making some new one which then would beg to making or using other homebrew others of the original tier 4 equivalents to meet the tier 3 floor.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd also give him a version of Bardic Knack-- use 1/2 your fighter level or your actual number of ranks, whichever is higher. If you want serious versatility, you might even allow him to use 1/3 his fighter level or his normal ability modifiers (whichever is higher) for all purposes. Helps mitigate MAD. Doing both of those should get you a pretty solid tier-4, methinks.

As for WBL-breaking... rather than explicitly handing out more money, which feels clumsy, try granting numerical bonuses you typically have to spend money on. A few enhancement bonus to ability scores, wielded weapons and worn armor can free up the player's cash for more interesting utility items. (Not to mention making the fighter just that much more versatile.

[Qwertystop]

Why is it when people think of ToB that they say caster or anime... Have these people never heard of Beowulf? Have they not heard of the Celtic warriors that were said to walk on the ends of enemies spears?

Why is it that a mundane like the fighter can't be high fantasy? What is so scary about mundanes not being stuck in low fantasy?

This wouldn't be a fix by any means, this fighter still can not keep up with the game.

Because we call them "mundanes", and mundane means boring.

[Rakaydos]

Once the fighter starts getting explicit abilities, rather than generic "fill in the blank" options, you start to move away from the vanilla flavor of the class. bumping it to tier 4 with skill points and feat options is a simple, easy-for-dms-to-approve change while giving the fighter SOMETHING to do when not in combat.

Fighter-only feats to raise the fighter's combat ability is another issue entirely, and beyond my homebrewing skill.

[Perseus]

Because we call them "mundanes", and mundane means boring.

Then let's start calling them Martials (like 4e) or something else because this bull crap of Non-Casters being stuck in low fantasy is getting pretty sad.

Or else we need a new name for these games where some players are allowed in high fantasy and others are always stuck in low fantasy.

[Cikomyr]

Problem is obviously the "Fighter Linear/Wizard Quadratic" progression.

Give a flat combat damage bonus to the fighter based on his level; something like Level/2 + 1.

Also, give him abilities to better control the battlefield/adversaries, and make these abilities relevant up to higher levels. Abilities I am thinking of:

- Attack of Opportunities for moving targets (prevent enemy movement)
- Tripping
- Disarming
- Denying Casting

Give increasingly effective bonuses to stack on TOP of the BAB progression. Why? Because a Lvl 15 fighter that specialized in tripping his opponents should be able to, somehow, trip a freakkin' giant or elephant.

"He's that good"

A good fighter should not necessarily be about being the ones dealing the most damage, but he should be a battlefield control force by himself. Disarming the BBEG, neutralizing enemy casters, etc..

[Belial_the_Leveler]

As written, no, not really. You're still hitting two of the major problems with the Fighter; 1) Anyone can take feats (and thus do the Fighter's job as well or better), and 2) The power offered by feats alone stops being relevant after about level 8.

My feat-based warrior class begs to differ;
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304478

Feats are too few in most cases - just increase the number. Examples of things doable via feats if you got enough;


1) Make yourself immune to ranged and ranged touch attacks. (infinite exceptional deflection)

2) See at extended distances, defeating illusions and invisibility outright. (sufficient perception bonus via feats to get epic perception stuff)

3) Wander unseen, even against normal magical detection.
(self concealment, sufficient stealth bonus via feats)

4) Recover from HP damage, ability damage and negative levels in moments.
(fast healing, several libris mortis feats)

5) Fly through the air faster than a wizard's Phantom Steed.
(starspawn, blinding speed multiple times)

6) Protection from spells and SU abilities that allow saves
(saving throw feats, epic saving throw feats, save reroll feats)

7) Manipulate others to get what you want.
(sufficient bonuses via feats to get epic diplomacy/bluff/sense motive)

8) Ressurrection, limited invulnerability.
(Epic Destiny feats, Damage Reduction multiple times)

9) Kill stuff. A lot.
(Ubercharging and similar stuff)

10) Maneuvers and stances
(martial stance/training feats multiple times)







In short, a lvl 20 warrior should be like Wonder Woman, Samurai Jack and Kratos. This is doable via feats - or via other fixes - and is neither "too anime" nor "magic" in the way DnD means it. Plus, it's awesome.

[Cikomyr]

I actually see a Lvl 20 Fighter to be more like Achillee in the Troy movie, except Mary Sue Legolas Paris bow critical hit.

There's nothing you can throw at him that will stick.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Achilles in the Troy movie was 8th level, maybe. He could kill a lvl 1-3 fighter (10-29 hp) in one blow, move faster and better than olympic-level athletes but not by much, and had sufficient high AC to pretty much ignore lvl 1-3 fighters in squad-level groups at a time. Ditto for Legolas - he killed an Oliphant (size-increased elephant, CR 7) but had a bit of trouble with a Cave Troll (CR 9).

[Rakaydos]

Perhaps early access to Epic feats, 1 at level 12 and 1 at level 18?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Perhaps early access to Epic feats, 1 at level 12 and 1 at level 18?
I don't think there are any epic feats that would break the game if you granted access to them at level 10 or so.

[Rakaydos]

Level 6: You may, at the start of a day, select a Fighter feat you qualify for. You are treated as if you have that feat for all purposes that day.
Level 12: You may take Epic feats you otherwise qualify for.
You may use temporary or item bonuses to qualify, but you only count as having the feat while you still qualify for it. (Ie, while you wear bracers of +3 strength, ect)
Level 18: You may, at the start of a day, select an Epic feat you qualify for. You are treated as if you have that feat for all purposes that day.