Where are the Miko Fans?

[rosebud]

I didn't include myself in the Mikophile set, but I'm rather surprised to see a dearth of fans. Not fans of Miko the Blackguard, but Miko as she is, no matter what happens to her. There are some who expressed sorrow. And some who feel she is now an interesting character. And those who wonder what she will do or become. But only a few who set aside the future what ifs and just focused on the moment of recognition.

Regarding Miko, obviously the next strips may or may not tell, but when you get past the shock of The Fall and the humor of Shojo's last words, you're left with pathos and emptiness. At the moment of her fall, it seems hard not to like her. (Even if that feeling only lasts a single panel.)

[Alfryd]

There no great shortage of us, we're just largely shocked into silence- though, strangely, a lot of the most virulently Miko-averse haven't much to say either. Instead we had a strange number of people figuring she wouldn't fall for her outburst, which, in fairness, is an insult to every principle Miko had stood for.

Still, at least one good thing may come of her Fall- her atonement may require voyaging with the OotS to safeguard the gates, which seems a fittingly arduous ordeal- and association with Belkar will not pose an immediate problem. I don't know how she'll maintain an antagonist position, though. perhaps she'll be sent to the other Gate?

[Setra]

I never really got why people thought she wouldn't fall. I still like her though.

My personal reaction was shock, like many. I don't really know what else to say.

[Morty]

There no great shortage of us, we're just largely shocked into silence- though, strangely, a lot of the most virulently Miko-averse haven't much to say either. Instead we had a strange number of people figuring she wouldn't fall for her outburst, which, in fairness, is an insult to every principle Miko had stood for.

Still, at least one good thing may come of her Fall- her atonement may require voyaging with the OotS to safeguard the gates, which seems a fittingly arduous ordeal- and association with Belkar will not pose an immediate problem. I don't know how she'll maintain an antagonist position, though. perhaps she'll be sent to the other Gate?

Spoiler for spoiler:
I really doubt she'll try to atone herself. It doesn't seem probable, and will be kind of anticlimatic. My guess is that she'll completely break and call gods and concepts of good and evil lies
And allow me just to say that I saw that coming. I didn't exactly predict it, but I wasn't surprised or shocked. I only didn't expect Miko killing Shojo.

[Hel65]

Here! I still love Miko, even though I think that her fall was awesome. Here's a hoping that she will be now more human. Also, I'll be a fan should she become a blackguard (I don't think she will, it's so cliche. So is redemption. The most interesting would be failed atonement!). Miko FTW!

[OzymandiasVolt]

I'll continue thinking she's a jerk, only now she's an evil FAILURE jerk. She should've stuck with jerk. Killing innocent people is never a good career move.

[Alfryd]

I really doubt she'll try to atone herself. It doesn't seem probable, and will be kind of anticlimatic. My guess is that she'll completely break and call gods and concepts of good and evil liesI covered my reasons for believing she will, belatedly, atone in the 407 thread, but I'll repeat them here:
(a) She still has some vestige of reasoning ability, or she wouldn't have bothered an attempted justification for executing Shojo.
(b) I doubt Rich would go for blackguard after putting on this elaborate light show. Better to let her slip quietly into the night.
(c)

If you want to argue that Miko is only borderline Good, go ahead; that is, in many ways the very point of the character and the main thrust of #251...

...In my mind, Miko is an antagonist, simply because she is an obstacle that the true protagonists of the story (the OOTS) must deal with/overcome. I think of her kind of as an "anti-villain", a person in the villain's role who is not actually villainous.

...Miko has ALWAYS been an antagonist because the goals of the OOTS are not, "Be righteous examples of heroism" or even "stop Xykon" (that's Roy's goal, only). The OOTS is made up of Haley (get rich), Elan (have fun), V (be respected), Roy (be the leader) and Belkar (kill!). Miko obstructed those goals for the entire time she was with the party. Only Durkon was NOT thwarted in his desires by Miko.
"Blackguards are very much a villain's villain, and hardly Good of any description, borderline or otherwise. On balance, therefore, I am moderately confident that Miko will eventually bounce back."

Rich's comments in other threads also informed me that Miko's Fall was more or less inevitable, but I'll let you read the FRC references yourself. :)


I'll continue thinking she's a jerk, only now she's an evil FAILURE jerk.Well, hopefully being forced to re-evaluate her decisions will also, to some extent, counteract her prior 'jerk' tendencies. Particularly if she has to work with oh, say, other sentient beings during atonement. Pot, kettle, black and all that.

[Sir_Norbert]

"Pathos and emptiness" is a good way to describe what I felt, and I said as much in my review of #406 in the Comic Ratings thread :elan:

[Vekin]

I'm usually a fairly compassionate guy, but I gained a ridiculous amount of satisfaction when she was zapped.

[rosebud]

The flip side of Miko is Belkar, and I was rather surprised how surprised he was, as well. Yes, he was still bantering and pushing, but from the "She wouldn't" disbelief to the hands-on-ears and eyes closed during The Event (yes, I can understand how anyone might have that reaction, but it does contrast from V's smile knowing what will happen as a result of the Great Thunderstrike), he seemed as surprised as everyone.

Something I love about a world like this is that the Gods can intervene so directly. Their intentions and will can still be obscured, but the ability to Know their views and see their actions makes it so much more real in a sense. (In some respects, one could just as well blame the Gods, too. She did, after all, ask them for assistance with increasingly unbalanced requests.)

As far as satisfaction goes, she needed a shakeup, so to speak, to have any hope of having her learn patience and humility. Of course, if the shock ever subsides, there's so many possible responses, and each would result in very different Mikos and storylines. (Contrary to some assertions, Miko has admitted fault in the past, even right after the first meeting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html).) So it will be interesting to see what Miko lies ahead.

As for the strip, I actually like that there won't be a strip until Wednesday. The limbo is so important a part of appreciation. It's the slow moments during the thrill ride or drama.

[The_Weirdo]

I'm usually a fairly compassionate guy, but I gained a ridiculous amount of satisfaction when she was zapped.


Meh, I like cute Asian females and have a thing for the notion of "protecting" them and I loved it when she lost her powers.

[Alangriffith]

Well I used to really not like Miko, because she was irritating, because she railroaded implausibly (and Rich's argument for how she could have beaten the party by rules had two huge flaws, both widely discussed), because this 'twelve gods divine authority over the whole world' justification for the trial popped up out of nowhere with no previous mention or foreshadowing...

Basically because the OOTS changed from a well-DMed world with cool comedy characters to a badly-DMed world with comedy characters forced to be less cool by railroading - and Miko was the in-game personification of this shift. (and lo, when she went away the world became better DMed and the comic became more fun again).

NOTE: I am not using badly-DMed as a code for 'badly-written comic', I am saying that the imaginary 4th wall GM suddenly became a railroading git with no warning - personally I would have liked to see some 4th wall-breaking character comment on this above 'stupid railroad plot' but hey.

However, when Miko turned on Shojo and stabbed him she rose immeasureably in my estimation.

Yes, she was wrong, but she was justifiably wrong, and based on what she heard and saw and knew everything made perfect sense. When an evil army is approaching by surprise and you discover your leader is a traitor who has been lying to you the whole time, the mental leap is obvious (and wrong, in this case).

Yes, I can see exactly why she fell, as much as I can see an argument for her not falling (I'm not saying she shouldn't have fallen, I'm saying I would not have cried foul if she hadn't fallen). I only wish Shojo had died faster so he couldn't have got his arsey self-righteous last words in, and might have died actually doubting his actions, rather than convinced he was right (see below for my opinion of Shojo).

What is important is that:
1) I saw a Miko actually prepared to make her own decision based on what is right, not have it made for her by tradition or her superiors (evidence, incidentally, that if Shojo had come clean with the paladins they could make a decision based on what is right rather than tradition, even such hidebound paladins as Miko).

2) I saw Shojo get his commuppance for being a dodgy lying traitor (yes he was acting for the greater good, no I do not give a toss. The ends do not justify the means, the work becomes flawed and it will go wrong - as indeed it did)

3) I saw Miko move from an irritating source of GM railroading to a 3D character who can be the source of brilliant IC interaction, roleplay, comedy and drama.

So I am now officially a fan of the new improved Miko, and I hope that her fall does not lead to her immediately reverting to old type Miko without powers, going 'the gods slapped me down for thinking for myself so I must become once more a mindless robot parrot of the traditionalist mentality'. That would be a tragedy.

Of course, this assumes the light show was actually Miko falling... I have seen before how Rich likes to play with the expectations of his audience.

[BardicLasher]

At the present moment, I'm not sure if I like Miko anymore, this depends ENTIRELY on her next course of actions. Miko... Broke. And if she turns into a crying mess after this, if she starts to question everything, if we see her truly emotionally HURT, it will confirm my theories of her motives, and I will like her.

Contrariwise, if she snaps at the gods, if she just becomes angrier, if she won't accept that there's a problem NOW, then I will NOT like her.

[Alfryd]

...and lo, when she went away the world became better DMed and the comic became more fun again.I don't think so. Her recent episodes have been a tad dry, but during her first stretch she was a source of great amusement. I suppose it's a matter of preference.

When an evil army is approaching by surprise and you discover your leader is a traitor who has been lying to you the whole time, the mental leap is obvious (and wrong, in this case).I wish the reasoning involved had been explained with a little more clarity.

The ends do not justify the means, the work becomes flawed and it will go wrong...*sigh* During WW2, allied codebreakers decyphered axis transmissions which often gave them near-perfect intel on enemy deployments. This information ws also often withheld from commanders in order to prevent the *knowledge* that the code had been broken from becoming obvious to the enemy. The allies even permitted their ships to come under attack without warning in order to gain more information on enemy attack broadcasts.
This code-breaking shortened the war in Europe by two years.
Do not declare that the 'the ends cannot justify the means' when a good 40 million casualties say otherwise.

Of course, this assumes the light show was actually Miko falling......:smalleek:

[Dectilon]

At the present moment, I'm not sure if I like Miko anymore, this depends ENTIRELY on her next course of actions. Miko... Broke. And if she turns into a crying mess after this ... I will like her.

Ooooh nooooo! I sure hope the author doesn't go down THAT path at least. There's a limit to how much a cool characters image can take : P

self-questioning: sure
crying: ffs, no!

Well, that's my opinion at least.

[Green Bean]

Where are the Miko Fans

Well, we've split up a bit. There's a few people arguing she shouldn't have fallen for killing Shojo, but they're in the minority. There's a larger group arguing that just because she fell does not mean she'll turn into a demonic baby-sacrificing being of pure evil. And there's a third group that thinks that this is an awesome arc, and is going to sit back and see where Rich takes us.

Obviously, it's not that clear cut, but that's the general idea...

[Varg]

<- Miko fan

:smallbiggrin:

[Setra]

Well, we've split up a bit. There's a few people arguing she shouldn't have fallen for killing Shojo, but they're in the minority. There's a larger group arguing that just because she fell does not mean she'll turn into a demonic baby-sacrificing being of pure evil. And there's a third group that thinks that this is an awesome arc, and is going to sit back and see where Rich takes us.

Obviously, it's not that clear cut, but that's the general idea...

I think some of us wish Miko to turn into a Blakguard.

Edit: Or a blackguard even! I myself am in the third group.


Ah, yes. We can't forget about the Blakguards AND Blackguards, with their unrepentant evil and typos :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: typos, ironically.
I saw the typo, and was just about to remark about it. You must have taken the Smite Typo Feat.

[Green Bean]

I think some of us wish Miko to turn into a Blakguard.

Edit: Or a blackguard even! I myself am in the third group.

Ah, yes. We can't forget about the Blakguards AND Blackguards, with their unrepentant evil and typos :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: typos, ironically.

[Erloas]

I'm a big fan of Miko the character, but not so much Miko as a person. The paladin turned to evil happens just a little too often and I'm hoping Giant does something else here. It is almost so cliche and writen into the laws of narative that it is almost inevitable that it will happen though. Although Giant does a very good job at taking the cliche and still making it good, but I'm hoping we see something else entirely here.

Miko has always seemed to me to be more lawful neutral then anything else, and while she obviously was lawful good she was much more lawful then she was good. Although the act of killing Shojo I found as being more chaotic neutral then evil. Enough to loose her paladin abilities if she wasn't actually doing the will of the gods, which she obviously wasn't, but not truely evil in the Xykon sense of evil.

I could see her keeping her lawfulness and go back to being a monk rather then going the route of evil. The uniqueness of a lawful good antagonist is something I would hate to see lost, we don't need another evil enemy around. I could see her trying to regain face by proving her actions where justified by trying to gather more information about the trial and everything involving OOTS and Xykon and still be an antagonist to OOTS without going evil.

[theKOT]

I just like how it's going, that's all. It makes sense, and sets up some crazy stuff.

[Kodra]

I actually didn't like Miko beforehand, but something about the expression on her face has me interested. The gods have finally told her that she's wrong. Now she has to take time to re-evaluate her life and decide what's going on. Maybe she'll seek to redeem her paladinhood, maybe she'll simply seek to become a warrior. Miko still is good, and while she committed evil, perhaps this very public rebuke will cause her to change.

At least I'm hoping. I like to see characters change rather than stay static.

[Jefepato]

I hope Miko breaks down, realizes (at least to some extent) where she went wrong, and tries to redeem herself.

But to be honest, I trust the Giant to tell the story well either way, so I'm not too worried.

[Pellias]

Ignorant peasants, Miko didn't fall, she ascended!

Miko expressed her righteousness and conviction by slicing both the throne and the corrupt hypocrite Shojo in half - with a single cut of her katana!

Having witnessed her commitment, purity and style, the Gods awarded her with lightning powers!

[ElfLad]

I'm a Miko fan. I'm basically arguing, "She's not going to turn evil. That would be Anakin-level stupid."


I'm not sure break or snap are the best choice of words. I'm betting she'll just kinda crumple.

[teratorn]

I think she has done her part and it's time to let her go by killing herself or sacrificing herself or something similar. Miko as minion of someone would be demeaning of her character. A redemption story would take too long since Miko is not a protagonist, the OOTS story is about Roy's quest to defeat Xykon, I don't think there is room for an elaborate Miko Saga on the side.

[Varg]

A redemption story would take too long since Miko is not a protagonist, the OOTS story is about Roy's quest to defeat Xykon, I don't think there is room for an elaborate Miko Saga on the side.
Got to disagree with you there - the "Haley gets her voice back" thing took ages, but was great. I think a "Miko claws her way back to Paladinhood" arc would be great, too. And she's as much a vital part of the OOTS world as anyone. Er, in my opinion.

[Erai]

Ya know, these last days I have been seriously considering doing something corny like signing up for the Miko fanclub. Of course I won't because it would be silly, but in the hypothetical case that it would not be...
Myep, I probably would :smalltongue:

[valis]

I'm a fan of Miko. I think her future is bleek and uncertain so the next fifty or so strips with her should be very interesting.

[teratorn]

Got to disagree with you there - the "Haley gets her voice back" thing took ages, but was great. I think a "Miko claws her way back to Paladinhood" arc would be great, too. And she's as much a vital part of the OOTS world as anyone. Er, in my opinion.

Yes, but Haley is a protagonist, one of the PCs and member of the order. Miko would be stealing the spotlight from the heros bigtime.

Of course the Giant could start a weekend feature on the redemption of Miko...

[Iranon]

Well, one is right here. I'm shocked. Not by her fall, but by the flashiness of it.

Personally, I believe collapsing in tears would be out of character. Paying her last respects to Shojo's body after realising what she has done, then preparing to commit seppuku would be more likely.

On the other hand... what is this Japan? We don't know whether a samurai in Azure City is ever expected to take their own life. Then, there is the gender bias - in real life, women were not supposed to commit the act on their own initiative. A lot of gender issues are dropped entirely in D&D so who knows.

If the character isn't written out of the story (which would be a shame... but if the Giant feels he has done all he can with her and doing more would be tedious, it's not my place to argue), I hope Rich won't rush things.

An instant fall all the way to evil would be as disappointing as a fast atonement after a heroic city defense; the former would cheapen the character and the latter would not do the dramatic build-up of her fall justice.
I could definitely see her going on a harrowing quest to restore her paladinhood only to refuse the Atonement spell on completion.

[Raxtenko]

Yes, it is true that she's not a protagonist, that the Giant originally intended her to be a Good aligned Antagonist, but that doesn't mean as the author he can't change his mind. Right? Right?

.....Please?

[Justinian]

Yo. Still here, still sympathizing, still hoping for the best.

[TinSoldier]

Checking in... Sorry I'm late!

Did I miss anything?

It's just that since #406 there has been so much activity on the boards, even someone as prolific as I am has difficulty keeping up with it. Coffee_Dragon may have quipped that "All threads should be Miko threads" but it's getting a little ridiculous, don't you think? I'm in Miko overload!


Of course the Giant could start a weekend feature on the redemption of Miko...But that would be sweet! I've thought for a long time that Miko should have her own comic.

[Setra]

Checking in... Sorry I'm late!

Did I miss anything?


Oh totally, you missed a group of Miko clones dressed up like cheerleaders.



It's just that since #406 there has been so much activity on the boards, even someone as prolific as I am has difficulty keeping up with it. Coffee_Dragon may have quipped that "All threads should be Miko threads" but it's getting a little ridiculous, don't you think? I'm in Miko overload!

But that would be sweet! I've thought for a long time that Miko should have her own comic.

I admit it's true, a bit much discussion on Miko.

Also, I agree as well, if Rich wouldn't mind...

[Saco de Carne]

Miko? You mean the dark paladin?

[TinSoldier]

Miko? You mean the dark paladin?No, we mean the fighter without bonus feats.

There is no dark paladin. Yet.

[Setra]

No, we mean the fighter without bonus feats.

There is no dark paladin. Yet.

I thought she was "a humbled monk with a high BAB"

[Alfryd]

Coffee_Dragon may have quipped that "All threads should be Miko threads" but it's getting a little ridiculous, don't you think? I'm in Miko overload!
Little bit.

But that would be sweet! I've thought for a long time that Miko should have her own comic.
A spinoff/prequel would indeed be rather delectable. Ah well. Early days yet.
Of course, it's possible she won't even survive the series. Do we want that kind of reminder?


The uniqueness of a lawful good antagonist is something I would hate to see lost...
Bear in mind she was technically an 'antagonist' during her entire time with the Order, apparently even when shelling out for their accomodation. She just has to present some 'difficulty or obstacle' that the OotS must 'deal with/overcome.' Heck, Belkar fits the bill.

Miko as minion of someone would be demeaning of her character. A redemption story would take too long since Miko is not a protagonist, the OOTS story is about Roy's quest to defeat Xykon, I don't think there is room for an elaborate Miko Saga on the side... Miko would be stealing the spotlight from the heros bigtime.
You're assuming they'd have to take place seperately...


Having witnessed her commitment, purity and style, the Gods awarded her with lightning powers!
Mikachu! I choose you!

[Cartographer]

Some of us are signing up just to proclaim their support...

-H

[Green Bean]

Mikachu! I choose you!

:miko:- Mika!

[Iranon]

Let me elaborate on not taking that Atonement spell...

It is possible to have a spiritual framework where the goal of self-perfection as pursued by a monk and surrendering the self as a vessel for a higher power are compatible. but I can see some problems there.
While Miko acknowledges the divine origin of her paladin abilities, her monk training would make it easy to slip into thinking that they are reflections of personal enlightenment rather than divine grace. Hence the journey from honest introspection over righteous conviction to fanatical zeal.

The combination might also explain some of her more outlandish moments... such as the insistence to camp in the muddy ditch using sharp rocks as pillows. A monk might eschew any physical comfort because they train themselves to ignore phyiscal discomfort. A paladin might try to encourage modesty in others. Combine the two and you get something rather bizarre.


Maybe I'm reading too much into her actions, but she has been portrayed as rather harsh for a paladin, rarely giving and never expecting quarter. She also takes responsibilities very seriously. She seems to have little use for mercy because it contradicts her perception of fairness and justice. Mostly speculative, but she might even think that granting mercy is demeaning for the beneficiary.
While an honourable code, it ignores a fairly big part of regular Lawful Good and the code of conduct for paladins is more restrictive than for retaining Lawful Good alignment.

In short, taking her vows as a paladin might have been the worst thing Miko ever did. I'm not knocking the paladin code, but constantly twisting one's true convictions to live up to it with varying degrees of success is a recipe for desaster. She might reach the conclusion that she can become a better person than she was as a paladin by living a different life.

[krossbow]

I am a fan of miko, but I am not blind; what she did to Shojo was reprehensible. Notice that I did not say unforgivable, but reprehensible. She was angry, showed a total disregard for the laws and all that was generally accepted as appropriate in this circumstance, and she killed a defenseless old man.


However, she is not beyond salvation; she could easily show real sorrow at what she has done, and I would like to see this, like how Bastilla in KotOR does if you help her.

However, I also realize this is not likely; Bastilla had an anchor, in that their was someone who cared about her, and would help her return from evil.

Miko, for better or worse, is completely, and utterly alone now.
________
B3 PLATFORM (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_B3_platform)

[Ampersand]

It's just that since #406 there has been so much activity on the boards, even someone as prolific as I am has difficulty keeping up with it.

For me it was that there was so much activity on the boards that they wouldn't even frelling load.

Anyway, Miko fan here, and count me in the "Miko Stays Good (or At Least Non-Evil)" camp. In my opinion Blackguards are so frickin' lame it's beyond words, and while it wouldn't be deal breaker if Tan Warrior goes that route, well...it won't be endearing either, no matter how masterfully people say the Giant is able to twist cliches.



Miko, for better or worse, is completely, and utterly alone now.

I'm hoping that Hinjo and the other guy, Redsword or whatever, will at least attempt to help Miko, despite their mutual dislike. Particularly Aquablade (is that his name?)...he claimed moral superiority to Miko all the way back in 251, I think now's a good time for him to put up or shut up.

[Setra]

I'm hoping that Hinjo and the other guy, Redsword or whatever, will at least attempt to help Miko, despite their mutual dislike. Particularly Aquablade (is that his name?)...he claimed moral superiority to Miko all the way back in 251, I think now's a good time for him to put up or shut up.

I hope so as well, by the way I believe it is Emerald Handle.

[Brickwall]

Miko? I think she's a well-written character. I also think that if we met in a restaurant, she'd probably give me the glare of death for being so Chaotic and non-Good. We wouldn't get along, is what I mean, since the 12 Gods forbid she should avail herself of the luxury of a cheap McWhopburger, or something.

I really didn't expect this to happen this way. I thought she'd be killing one of the Order.

[Professor Tanhauser]

I think a lot of Miko fans are still in the trauma ward recovring from the shock of my depictions of Miko and Belkar slaking a non-blood type of lust on each other....

...at least I like to think they are. ;)

[Setra]

I think a lot of Miko fans are still in the trauma ward recovring from the shock of my depictions of Miko and Belkar slaking a non-blood type of lust on each other....

...at least I like to think they are. ;)

Actually I don't find it shock so much as humor, now if only I could find that pic of "Blackguard Miko", it looked cool. *ninja steals your kidneys*

[Talya]

I'm much more of a fallen-Miko fan than a Paladin-Miko fan. Paladin-Miko was irritating. Fallen-Miko has potential! Miko-the-blackguard could make an awesome villain.

[Snake-Aes]

*Raises Hand*

I suppose some people just want to see her smiting... For me Miko's the best.

[Golt]

<loud shout>
OVER HERE!
</loud shout>


I think a lot of Miko fans are still in the trauma ward recovring from the shock of my depictions of Miko and Belkar slaking a non-blood type of lust on each other....

...at least I like to think they are. ;)
Actually I think it might have something to do with the visitors/bandwidth ratio. It took me over 10 minutes to enter the forum, over 10 minutes to view a thread, over 10 minutes before my post was send...
Miko strips are essentially turning web into a sludge. Can any other character boast of that? :smallbiggrin:

[Professor Tanhauser]

Actually I don't find it shock so much as humor, now if only I could find that pic of "Blackguard Miko", it looked cool. *ninja steals your kidneys*

WHAT?!?!?!?! Are you saying I took all that time anf effort to craft a truly horrific image withe the intent of shocking Miko's fanclub into serious trauma, catatonia and possibly even post traumatic stresss disorder and they took it as a JOKE?!?!?!?

Sheesh, now I have to come up with a real corker....

[Setra]

WHAT?!?!?!?! Are you saying I took all that time anf effort to craft a truly horrific image withe the intent of shocking Miko's fanclub into serious trauma, catatonia and possibly even post traumatic stresss disorder and they took it as a JOKE?!?!?!?

Sheesh, now I have to come up with a real corker....

Not all of us did mind you, I just took "Repel Disturbing Thoughts" last level.

[tojo102]

Why exactly does everyone think that Miko killing Shojo or maybe becoming a blackguard is going to eliminate her fan base? Nale, Thog, Sabine, and Belkar still have theirs, don't they?

[Setra]

Why exactly does everyone think that Miko killing Shojo or maybe becoming a blackguard is going to eliminate her fan base? Nale, Thog, Sabine, and Belkar still have theirs, don't they?

Because becoming a Blackguard would betray her character. Imagine Belkar deciding to become a pacifist, Nale deciding power is worthless, Thog becoming intelligent, and Sabine becoming ... what's the word, abstinant?

[Ashbless]

Why exactly does everyone think that Miko killing Shojo or maybe becoming a blackguard is going to eliminate her fan base? Nale, Thog, Sabine, and Belkar still have theirs, don't they?

True but those you've mentioned haven't stepped out of character, so to speak. Miko is the one character in the whole series so far who has drastically changed, and whichever direction the Giant goes, Miko the BArbarian/Monk/Blackgaurd there'll be those upset he didn't take her in a different direction.

Personally I'd like to a 'rise and fall and rise' arc (or the reverse). OF seeing a character change through the Acts of the story. And here in OOTS, it seems whereas everyone else is rather static at the moment, that is a role that Miko could play.

[Lord Zentei]

I didn't include myself in the Mikophile set, but I'm rather surprised to see a dearth of fans. Not fans of Miko the Blackguard, but Miko as she is, no matter what happens to her. There are some who expressed sorrow. And some who feel she is now an interesting character. And those who wonder what she will do or become. But only a few who set aside the future what ifs and just focused on the moment of recognition.

Regarding Miko, obviously the next strips may or may not tell, but when you get past the shock of The Fall and the humor of Shojo's last words, you're left with pathos and emptiness. At the moment of her fall, it seems hard not to like her. (Even if that feeling only lasts a single panel.)

I'm not entirely sure what you were expecting from the Mikophiles. :smallwink: Though I count myself as one personally, I had in fact predicted that she would attempt to overthrow Shojo way back during the Watchtower arc -- though I had not quite thought she would go this far.

Her whole role seems to be that of the tragically flawed anti-hero, though. So there it is.

[tojo102]

Originally Posted by tojo102
Why exactly does everyone think that Miko killing Shojo or maybe becoming a blackguard is going to eliminate her fan base? Nale, Thog, Sabine, and Belkar still have theirs, don't they?

Because becoming a Blackguard would betray her character. Imagine Belkar deciding to become a pacifist, Nale deciding power is worthless, Thog becoming intelligent, and Sabine becoming ... what's the word, abstinant?__________________.

Not in her case. It would be the case for Hinjo or most paladins, but I think it was, or at least should have been, clear to everyone that this was an inevitability for her.

[Setra]

Not in her case. It would be the case for Hinjo or most paladins, but I think it was, or at least should have been, clear to everyone that this was an inevitability for her.

This may very well be, however a Blackguard would be out of character.

[Solara]

I'm hoping that Hinjo and the other guy, Redsword or whatever, will at least attempt to help Miko, despite their mutual dislike. Particularly Aquablade (is that his name?)...he claimed moral superiority to Miko all the way back in 251, I think now's a good time for him to put up or shut up.


I don't remember Roy ever saying that he was 'morally superior'. :smallconfused: Didn't he just tell her off for acting like a bitch?

[krossbow]

I personally got to admit, I'd love to see miko attempting to defend the city without her powers, as a featless fighter, and realizing the depths of what being a protector means; fighting to protect others, even without thanks or powers, not to prove anything to yourself.

[Lord Zentei]

I think she has done her part and it's time to let her go by killing herself or sacrificing herself or something similar. Miko as minion of someone would be demeaning of her character. A redemption story would take too long since Miko is not a protagonist, the OOTS story is about Roy's quest to defeat Xykon, I don't think there is room for an elaborate Miko Saga on the side.

I see your argument and raise you one Darth Vader.

Antagonist (at least in the original trilogy)? Yes.

Long road to redemption? Yup.


While I doubt that she will go all blackguard, the possibility of having a long redemption arc for an antagonist is entirely plausible.

[Green Bean]

I don't remember Roy ever saying that he was 'morally superior'. :smallconfused: Didn't he just tell her off for acting like a bitch?

Well there was that, and then he insulted her way of life (i.e. paladins suck!), and then said that she wasn't really Good.

That sounds like moral superiority...

[Pequod]

Belkar got his wish: A Fighter without bonus feats, :smallbiggrin:

Poor Miko, are we looking at the next member of the OOTS, her quest: Redemption

[tojo102]

This may very well be, however a Blackguard would be out of character

Your opinion, Setra, which is obviously not shared by everyone. Besides I DID say MAYBE becoming a blackguard

[GrauGeist]

We're still here. :)

We're just a little sad for our favorite NPC. :(

[Solara]

Well there was that, and then he insulted her way of life (i.e. paladins suck!), and then said that she wasn't really Good.

That sounds like moral superiority...


Well, I guess so, if the definition of acting morally superior is calling someone else down on their behavior for any reason...even if 'constantly acting morally superior' is the main reason you're pissed at them in the first place.

In either case though I think Miko's got a lot more to answer for than a 'filthy honorless criminal' like Roy does... (He's so far beneath her, what can she really expect from someone like him anyway?)

[Setra]

Your opinion, Setra, which is obviously not shared by everyone. Besides I DID say MAYBE becoming a blackguard
I realize this is my opinion, I know it is not fact, I try not to treat my opinions as such. It is simply my opinion that her becoming a Blackguard would be out of character.

I do believe many people would agree with that speculation. I also did not dispute what you said, I merely stated my own opinion.

[krossbow]

Hmmm... It would be nice to see the giant throw us for a loop by making us think she was going to turn into a blackguard when she meets up with the LG, and then have her spit in their faces and refuse.

[Skyserpent]

I personally got to admit, I'd love to see miko attempting to defend the city without her powers, as a featless fighter, and realizing the depths of what being a protector means; fighting to protect others, even without thanks or powers, not to prove anything to yourself.

I like this one.

[Ampersand]

I don't remember Roy ever saying that he was 'morally superior'. :smallconfused: Didn't he just tell her off for acting like a bitch?

h_v hit the main points. I was thinking specifically of this line:

:roy: You're not Good, at least not any definition of Good that I would want to follow.

The way I read that, that's Rob very specifically saying that he thinks he's more capital-G Good than Miko, because she "only follows the letter of the alignment". Ron's next speech bubble is telling as well, since it shows that he has no problem sitting in judgement of how Miko plays her alignment.

So while you're right in that Opaquedagger didn't outright say he was morally superior, it seems (to me at least) that there was an unmistakable undertone of that in pretty much everything he said in 251.

[Demented]

Miko's already been stealing the spotlight from the OOTS. So have the LG and Xykon-cloak. Haley's own spotlight has been pretty muted, and is also very unique to her. If Miko secures her own section of the spotlight, it won't be from Haley's portion.

Edit: Oops, I somehow managed to forget this thread had more than one page.

[AK-00]

Some of us are signing up just to proclaim their support...

-H


(Raises a hand)
Present.



... obviously the next strips may or may not tell, but when you get past the shock of The Fall and the humor of Shojo's last words, you're left with pathos and emptiness. At the moment of her fall, it seems hard not to like her.


Y'know, this is an interesting thread. I hadn't considered things on that level. To be honest, I kind of regarded the most recent strip as such a forgone conclusion, I didn't spare it any thought at all... And the strip before that I was too busy laughing my backside off with delight. It was an unbridled pleasure to see Miko shoot from the hip with such magnificent spontaneity. I just hope that, in the wake of this, she realises that, far from a blessing, the influence of the gods in her life has been a crutch that's prevented her from achieving her true potential.

[teratorn]

Miko's already been stealing the spotlight from the OOTS. So have the LG and Xykon-cloak. Haley's own spotlight has been pretty muted, and is also very unique to her. If Miko secures her own section of the spotlight, it won't be from Haley's portion.

Yes, they are on the strip but for doing something directly against the OOTS. A Miko redemption story even if she goes with the OOTS would be for Miko's sake not for the OOTS's sake. It would be funny, Miko does this horrible thing and the Giant promotes her to protagonist status.

[Lord Zentei]

Yes, they are on the strip but for doing something directly against the OOTS. A Miko redemption story even if she goes with the OOTS would be for Miko's sake not for the OOTS's sake. It would be funny, Miko does this horrible thing and the Giant promotes her to protagonist status.

Errr. I have already adressed that point, dude:


I see your argument and raise you one Darth Vader.

Antagonist (at least in the original trilogy)? Yes.

Long road to redemption? Yup.

While I doubt that she will go all blackguard, the possibility of having a long redemption arc for an antagonist is entirely plausible.

Merely having a long redemption arc does not make her a protagonist.

[rosebud]

Regarding redemption, while Anakin/Vader is one obvious meme, there are many other forms. Some atonements (such as the labors of Hercules) brought fame, others humility. In normal circumstances, were not an impending hobgoblin crisis, the Sapphire Guard could, one hopes, take care of its own.

Oddly, it is not the reaction between Belkar and Miko that interests me; it is that between Durkon and Miko. While Durkon deceived, he never lied. And he could be one of the few advocates Miko has. (As LG, however, Roy could possibly sympathize. It's much easier to feel pity when your antagonist is in a position of weakness.)

Anyhow, unless we're strung along (which is a distinct possibility -- there are other event threads ongoing not to mention the possible reaction of other groups to the sudden celestial noise), we'll have some idea of how she reacts to recent changes in status.

[Lord Zentei]

Regarding redemption, while Anakin/Vader is one obvious meme, there are many other forms. Some atonements (such as the labors of Hercules) brought fame, others humility. In normal circumstances, were not an impending hobgoblin crisis, the Sapphire Guard could, one hopes, take care of its own.

Yeah, I only used Vader as an example because he is so well known. Raistlin is another one.

Interesting call on the Durkon-Miko reaction.

[GrayMatter]

However, I also realize this is not likely; Bastilla had an anchor, in that their was someone who cared about her, and would help her return from evil.

Miko, for better or worse, is completely, and utterly alone now.

Not true. She will ALWAYS have me :D

I always thought she was a great character, from the disdainful ignorance of Roy's low banter to the awesome destruction of anything in the way of her version of Good. Yes, she's not perfect, and she is a paladin, so everyone throws stones at the first excuse regardless of the window-to-wood ratio of their own house.

But paladins don't get to be perfect at first level, or tenth. There's a reason it's such a struggle to improve as a paladin, and that's so that only the best, the truly shining examples of Lawful Good, will ever reach the top of that very high mountain. Which btw, their GOD is on top of. And the punishment for failing to meet the challenge every single time it comes up can be devastating.

My take is, Miko might have passed this test with more guidance from her commander, her co-guardsmen, and maybe even her gods.


Remember, she had a raw deal from the start, specifically the "orphan" part. My guess is that Miko's parents were assassinated, given how common that seems to be in Azure City. Heck, that kind of thing made a guy dress up in a bat costume and go swinging around a city fighting crime. Miko being a little nuts about anything that even resembles evil is understandable in that light, and her being intolerant of any failure to pursue and destroy evil on the part of the people around her (who were also paladins) is also a lot more understandable.
I'll bet they were even sympathetic and tolerant of her attitude for a few years, but just got all funned out on the Crusaditude, and that led to her being isolated from the people who could have helped her understand the softer aspects of paladinhood.


So I don't blame Miko entirely for her behavior. The situation reminds me of a saying, "No one person could have screwed things up this badly. It had to have taken a committee".

[Klytus]

I'm usually a fairly compassionate guy, but I gained a ridiculous amount of satisfaction when she was zapped.

My reaction was: "It's about $^@&ing time that uptight, sanctimonious, bully got what was coming to her!"

Forgive me, but to my view, she has always embodied the worst in paladins. It is folks like her who have given the class a bad rep. Her fall was long overdue.

[Professor Tanhauser]

Why exactly does everyone think that Miko killing Shojo or maybe becoming a blackguard is going to eliminate her fan base? Nale, Thog, Sabine, and Belkar still have theirs, don't they?


Now, just hold on one cotton pickin' minute here. Putting belkar in the same sentence as sabing, nale and thog is just totally wrong and I can't let that go unchallenged.

Nale, thog and sabine murdered innocent people they just happened to find on the street as part of their plot to frame elan.

Ok, belkar kills people, but he does not just randomly pick unarmed people at random and murder them in ghastly ways. The vast majority of kills belkar has made have been enemies, most of whom were armed at the time, a'la yikyik, legions of goblins, etc.

Sorry, but putting belkar, who kills armed enemies in combat, in the same league with people who murder innocent, unarmed strangers they pick at random just isn't right and I had to call it.

[Professor Tanhauser]

I'm much more of a fallen-Miko fan than a Paladin-Miko fan. Paladin-Miko was irritating. Fallen-Miko has potential! Miko-the-blackguard could make an awesome villain.

Well, I think a lot of people want to see miko as black guard because they envision a black guard female member as wearing a dominatrix-style outfit complete with tight black leather, high heeled boots, fishnet stockings and similar attire.

[teratorn]

Well, I think a lot of people want to see miko as black guard because they envision a black guard female member as wearing a dominatrix-style outfit complete with tight black leather, high heeled boots, fishnet stockings and similar attire.

Ok, you bought me, I salute you Miko the blackguard.

[Iranon]

Somewhat agreed, despite my fondness for her.

I don't think the state of grace did her much good as a person. In most fall-and-redemption stories, the previous state was almost exalted and definitely worth returning to; tragedy struck with the fall itself. In her case, it might have struck with her ascension to grace in the first place.

Miko as a paladin was not only a very conflicted character, her only way to tackle the conflicts were ignoring them and doing what she thought was right and outright denial. Neither of which is healthy in the long run.
She has done a lot of good, getting little thanks in return, but with her attitude disaster was sure to strike over and over again - she was a menace to neutral and even good people as well.

If her falls serves as a wake-up call and she tries to atone for her deed, I hope she will emerge as a wiser and less blindly driven woman. To her, redemption can only come through personal growth.
In my eyes, it could mean resolving her personal conflicts to a point where she can embrace the tenets of paladinhood wholeheartedly (trying harder than anyone else is not enough on its own, as she demonstrated quite effectively) or in realising that she doesn't have what it takes and becoming an admirable champion of good in another manner. Which, unfortunately, is made a little harder by the unique properties of her classes.

[TinSoldier]

Now, just hold on one cotton pickin' minute here. Putting belkar in the same sentence as sabing, nale and thog is just totally wrong and I can't let that go unchallenged.

Nale, thog and sabine murdered innocent people they just happened to find on the street as part of their plot to frame elan.

Ok, belkar kills people, but he does not just randomly pick unarmed people at random and murder them in ghastly ways. The vast majority of kills belkar has made have been enemies, most of whom were armed at the time, a'la yikyik, legions of goblins, etc.

Sorry, but putting belkar, who kills armed enemies in combat, in the same league with people who murder innocent, unarmed strangers they pick at random just isn't right and I had to call it.You haven't read "On the Origin of PCs" yet, have you?

Because if he wasn't with the OotS, then Belkar would be doing just that. Because he already has.

[Talyn]

I concur re: Belkar. I simply cannot understand how anyone can possibly like him.

As for Miko - I saw her being set up for the fall, and I dreaded it's coming, because I was and still am a fan of the Miko-as-paladin. I agree that she should have fallen - paladinhood is stripped because of actions, not intentions - but I refuse to believe that she is not still Lawful Good, and I will bet whatever you want that she has the potential for redemption down the line.

She made a mistake - a mistake that someone with a different worldview, or maybe even someone who wasn't wounded, exhausted, and strung out on fear and adrenaline wouldn't make. But that doesn't make her evil, or chaotic, or even neutral. She'll be redeemed, or she'll die heroically trying. I believe it.

And if she falls, and stays fallen, well then damn those cruel gods who refused her the guidance she begged for and set her on the path to her own damnation. If Miko-the-paladin is gone forever, then Miko-the-Blackguard will make the the Twelve Gods and their treacherous lackeys pay! Bwahaha!

... but I doubt that will happen.

[Raxtenko]

You haven't read "On the Origin of PCs" yet, have you?

Because if he wasn't with the OotS, then Belkar would be doing just that. Because he already has.

Just to add to taht, back during the whole Dirt Farmer arc Strip #211, Belkar expresses the serious desire to hunt do9wn and kill townsfolk, which he retracts when he realizes that Roy is talking about killing Ogres. Not exactly the same as killing innocents, but yeah he would've done it.

[Demented]

I concur re: Belkar. I simply cannot understand how anyone can possibly like him.

Same reason people like guns.
He's a finely crafted tool.
Doesn't matter that his only purpose is killing (and making wisecracks), he excels at it, if only someone would point him at a target and pull the trigger.

His low wisdom probably isn't a defect....

:belkar: They don't pay me to think, they pay me to kill!
:miko: They pay you?
:belkar: NOT the point!

[Solara]

I concur re: Belkar. I simply cannot understand how anyone can possibly like him.

Same reason people like Xykon and Redcloak and Nale and Thog, because they're funny! Not to mention that they're refreshingly honest about what they do - none of them are self righteous or self deceptive in the slightest.

I think Miko would be likeable too if she'd go back to freely admitting there's a stick up her ass and then threaten to kill someone over a mattress tag.

But of course that would defeat the whole purpose of her character - there's a reason the Giant rarely writes funny lines for her, IMO. The storyline tends to get more serious whenever she's around, it seems, and as a person who appreciates plot over jokes that's just fine with me.

[Raxtenko]

She's got a few dry remarks here and there.

[Demented]

Theory! Miko is probably Giant's creative outlet. <_<
Then again, for someone who says he has the plot all planned out....

[Mawhrin Skel]

I've always considered Miko to be a tragically flawed hero. I've been expecting her to fall since the watchtower. I don't like her any less, indeed I pity her. What she did was evil, but she was motivated by her desire to do good.

A Blackguard development I would find entirely implausible for Miko. It would run entirely contrary to her motivations. Actually, I don't think I've ever heard a plausible Hero to Villain story.

Miko needs to learn empathy and humility. Her Fall should teach her the latter, the former needs to be taught by reaching out to her. To put it simply, Miko needs a hug. Or maybe a good lay. Either way, I'm the fellow to do it! :)

Or maybe Durkon will help her.

A Blackguard turn via the Linear Guild being offered but rejected by Miko, mentioned up thread, seems very possible. Miko the Fallen Paladin accompanying the OOTS, mutual loathing included, could also have interesting story opportunities. I could imagine Roy deciding she would be useful to have along, and I think the others would respect Roy's decision. Except Belkar.

Also, as I mentioned in the Miko thread I made, I see Miko having to redeem her enemy Belkar as part of her atonement to be poetic.

[Demented]

Have you ever heard a plausible Anti-Hero to Villain story?


Anyway....
Given that Miko's knowledge of liches isn't remarkable, and other characters have shown similar ignorance of popular facts, it might be that Miko isn't familiar enough with Blackguards and fiends to realize how irredeemably evil of a path choosing to be a Blackguard is; she could be tricked or cursed into it.

Though, we haven't seen a Blackguard in OOTSworld yet. If they're really overtly evil, then that throws the possibility right out the window, until/unless Miko goes completely off the deep end.

An atonement quest to redeem Belkar is far too harsh. It seems impossible; making that her atonement quest is essentially sealing her fate as an ex-paladin. Now, squikking Belkar seems easier, but lacks the redemption-esque nature that atonement deserves. Anything that ends up in her following the OOTS around, as a 7th party member, seems best.

[rosebud]

Anything that ends up in her following the OOTS around, as a 7th party member, seems best.A punishment is supposed to be for her atonement, not ours. :smallsmile: (Yeah, I know I started this as a "Where are the Miko Fans" thread.) It's just that I'd so love to have OOTS spend some time with Hinjo, instead. Now Miko being teamed up with Belkar as a duo for their crimes, that I'd love to see some more of! Of course, she's as likely to end up with the Linear Guild, but one can always hope for future installments of the odd couple.

[Demented]

Oh man, I forgot to close the spoiler tag. ><

And the readership NEVER atones.

[Raxtenko]

I don't think one can be tricked into becoming a Blackguard given the nature of the requirments.

[Alangriffith]

For those who missed my original post buried back on page 2, the quote below was a response to me saying the ends don't justify the means (both in general and specifically to Lord Shojo).



*sigh* During WW2, allied codebreakers decyphered axis transmissions which often gave them near-perfect intel on enemy deployments. This information ws also often withheld from commanders in order to prevent the *knowledge* that the code had been broken from becoming obvious to the enemy. The allies even permitted their ships to come under attack without warning in order to gain more information on enemy attack broadcasts.
This code-breaking shortened the war in Europe by two years.
Do not declare that the 'the ends cannot justify the means' when a good 40 million casualties say otherwise.

Ah yes, the World War 2 smackdown. This is where I should hang my head in shame, grovel for apology or just not reply and let all see how wrong I am to spit on the memory of our war dead while making a totally unrelated statement about a webcomic. Well I'm not like that.

Firstly, some points of pedantry.

1) There is no way a two year war lengthening is anything more than guesswork by you or some other source. More warnings may not have tipped off the Germans, or their replacement code could have been broken, or they could have won the war in 1942 with U-boats if their codes were changed. There are far too many variables to consider.

2) 40 million casulaties.... I'll guess you are referring to total world war two casualties, as a quick google references 40 million civilians, 61 million soldiers and a host of other estimates. (If its actually a prediction of dead in the imaginary two year war extension, please see point 1). I'd like you to note that these people are dead despite your 'justified' example of enigma code breakers. Some of them likely died due to the withheld warnings you mentioned. Therefore please don't try to guilt trip me with them.

3) Withholding information is not the same as lying. I'll assume you aren't suggesting the allies deliberately gave new orders sending troops into massacres because this would reinforce axis confidence in their codes. They simply did not override already existing orders based on new information.
(If you are saying that, I want to see your sources, by PM if necessary).

And now something of an answer to your main point

4) I would never be able to justify to myself sending people to die when I could save them. Therefore I would never be any form of armed forces commander, and if forced into a position where I had to do such a thing I would resign or commit suicide or feel guilt for the rest of my life. So yes, to me personally the ends do not justify the means, and no amount of statistically more lives saved or greater good makes any difference. I would refuse to kill the metaphorical innocent child to save the equally metaphorical millions of people in the classic moral dilemma. For a less personal view, please see 5.

5) I admit your main point. The world is complicated and contains shades of grey. There is no absolute moral statement that cannot have an extreme example constructed to render it false in those circumstances (that includes this one, so please don't bother to try and create an unarguable absolute moral statement - I have better things to do than attack it).
I asuppose I should have written 'the ends do not justify the means in most circumstances' or 'the ends do not justify the means for Shojo' or 'the ends never justify the means for me personally' or '"the ends do not justify the means" is a moral guideline that applies in most cases, but like all moral guidelines is subject to the use of your brain when in extreme situations'.

Of course, if I wrote like that then my posts would be even more long-winded than they are already. They are already so long-winded because I try to cover all likely counter-arguments before they are made, but even I have limits.

So, back to the comic. Anyone who wishes may look at my post on page 2 and debate any points relating to my opinion of Shojo or Miko. I see no reason to repeat them here and waste yet more thread.
I have already taken up far too much space defending myself, but I don't particularly like the implication that I cannot speak my mind on a webcomic without somehow being held accountable for/by 40 million dead.

[teratorn]

Theory! Miko is probably Giant's creative outlet. <_<
Then again, for someone who says he has the plot all planned out....

Reading his comments in Paladin Blues I got the impression that he changed his plans for Miko sometime after the first encounter with the OOTS, probably after the dirt farmers story. It's about that time that I started to see some signs that the Giant was "going to get her". I confess I never thought he would go this far, not something as drastic as having her murder Shojo.

[Amon Star]

*ninja steals your kidneys*

STOP DOING THAT!!! :smallfurious:


I think Miko would be likeable too if she'd go back to freely admitting there's a stick up her ass and then threaten to kill someone over a mattress tag.

She never threatened to kill someone over a mattress tag. She just demanded to know who had done it.


An atonement quest to redeem Belkar is far too harsh. It seems impossible; making that her atonement quest is essentially sealing her fate as an ex-paladin. Now, squikking Belkar seems easier, but lacks the redemption-esque nature that atonement deserves. Anything that ends up in her following the OOTS around, as a 7th party member, seems best.

Nonsense. All you'll need is a Periapt Of Wisdom.

[TinSoldier]

Where are all the Miko fans?

we'r in ur dunjun smitin ur evils!

[Pellias]

Yes, but Haley is a protagonist, one of the PCs and member of the order. Miko would be stealing the spotlight from the heros bigtime.

Of course the Giant could start a weekend feature on the redemption of Miko...



HAHAHAHAHAHA!

God forbid our shiny heroes should lose their spotlight.... to someone equally or more interesting.

I think Miko should regain her power by executing Belkar, again and again, each time he's resurrected. It's funny how the little creep apparently has more fans then Miko does, even though he's openly evil, and she's openly lawful good.

As far as I'm concerned, Miko's story has already upstaged the Order of the Stick. She has it all - dramatic conflict of lawful good against evil and the incoming fight against her personal failings. On the other hand, the Order of the Stick is a vehicle for comedy - which is nice, but cannot beat Miko's story in the area of dramatic impact.

[AllisterH]

Isn't this Shojo's fault?

Miko NEVER had a choice of being a paladin. Remember, she was happy in the monastary (we never did find out how long she lived with the monks..just long enough to get a few levels there) and even though she was crying when she was taken away, Shojo manipulated her and told a 13 yr old girl.

"You're destined for great things".

Exactly what type of individual was Shojo trying to create? She didn't see him as a father figure since nowhere do we get any sense from either Shojo or Miko of familial feeliongs, thus she saw Shojo as her liege while Shojo just thought of her as a paladin.

Hell, his last thoughts weren't "I'm sorry Miko" which is what a perent should feel seeign a child fail but his thoughts were "Ha-ha, you screwed up".

So you basically have someone who in her formative years was told that she is destined for great things. Yeah, of course she's going to believe she's always right because pretty much, that's what she was taught.

She's never been a person a.k.a young kid allowed to see life but a paladin first and foremost.

P.S. There is nothing that say a Paladin has to be humble. Hell, Amelia from Slayers is textbook LG and noway would I consider her humble. Beside, remember what she wanted to do with the loot? She would've given it to orphans....

[Applehat]

Personally, I hope Miko will kill herself. Just saying.

[garylian]

I'm much more of a fallen-Miko fan than a Paladin-Miko fan. Paladin-Miko was irritating. Fallen-Miko has potential! Miko-the-blackguard could make an awesome villain.

I'm not a Miko fan as a person, but her character is a brilliant story moving one. She was almost never funny or even entertaining on her own, but she enabled Rich to create some of the most entertaining and reactionary moments of this comic. I think the whole "pour sake on Miko and set her on fire" strip garnered the heaviest flow of comments for a single strip at that time, and I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't still the most commented on strip.

So, Miko the paladin was a royal pain in the backside for OotS members, but she really created a ton of story and joke moments.

Miko the fallen creates a chance for her to become someone I can really like. There is nothing like rooting for the atonement and redemption of a misguided individual to really get me going. Heck, I wanted her to pull that stick out of her butt and hook up with Roy when they first met. Now, he has Celia, and that possibility seems non-existent.

I'm not a fan of hers now, but if she starts down the road to atonement and redemption, I just may become one. It all depends on how Rich uses here from here.

Personally, I am really hoping that she can win us all over by becoming a person instead of a bad stereotype of a paladin.

[garylian]

Well, I think a lot of people want to see miko as black guard because they envision a black guard female member as wearing a dominatrix-style outfit complete with tight black leather, high heeled boots, fishnet stockings and similar attire.

ROFL, now THAT was an unexpected but quite enlightening theory!

Bravo!

Now, excuse me while I wipe my monitor off.

[Pronounceable]

For some uncomprehensible reason I'm expecting someone to post:

"Miko is innocent! A man with one arm did it!"

[Setra]

For some uncomprehensible reason I'm expecting someone to post:

"Miko is innocent! A man with one arm did it!"
No, it was obviously a six fingered man!

Really though, at this point I will simply wait and see what will happen.

If she turns into a Blackguard/Goes Evil, gonna leave her Fanclub methinks
That and leave the forums for a month til all the Miko Blackguard threads die down.

If she becomes super nice, gonnna still leave.

I'm hoping for her to wisen up a little, and wish to atone.

[Amon Star]

As far as I'm concerned, Miko's story has already upstaged the Order of the Stick. She has it all - dramatic conflict of lawful good against evil and the incoming fight against her personal failings. On the other hand, the Order of the Stick is a vehicle for comedy - which is nice, but cannot beat Miko's story in the area of dramatic impact.

I agree. :miko: is a classic example of a flawed Hero. She's devoted to doing what's right, but in the process has become blinded by her own light.

[TinSoldier]

I refuse to start another thread, so I'll post it here.

One problem is that different fans view Miko in different ways. She has always been an antagonist, but some see her as a villain--an obstacle to be overcome by the OotS on their journey to telling jokes to one another. Oh, and saving the world, too.

Personally, even though I know that Miko is an antagonist, I've always liked her character ever since she was revealed. I don't want her to join the OotS--that wouldn't be right. However, I saw sparks of good in her up until the latest story arc of #406-408. I never saw the zealotry or self-righteousness that others saw. Arrogance, yeah. But then, so is Roy. That doesn't really make it right.

I know that she was originally meant to be the kind of paladin that is played annoyingly in a party. The problem is that she was never part of a party! She annoyed the OotS because she was their captor.

Now if she had been sent on her mission to capture OotS with a party of her own, then the caricature part could have been filled out better. She probably would be less well liked (well, by the Miko fans anyway).

Anyway, I will be praying to the Twelve for Miko, to let her see the error of her ways and to find a way to redeem herself. Oh, and also to give Roy a case of hives.

[Krellen]

At the present moment, I'm not sure if I like Miko anymore, this depends ENTIRELY on her next course of actions. Miko... Broke. And if she turns into a crying mess after this, if she starts to question everything, if we see her truly emotionally HURT, it will confirm my theories of her motives, and I will like her.

Contrariwise, if she snaps at the gods, if she just becomes angrier, if she won't accept that there's a problem NOW, then I will NOT like her.
I think either one would be equally interesting.

"The Fall" has occurred so often now in literature that there are no cliches left. They've all been done so many times, the descent to Evil, the redemption, the new path, that all are the same. Nothing's new - it's the telling that's the crux, not the story itself.

At whichever one Miko takes, I'm interested in seeing. I'm not sure I'm a "Miko fan", though. I never thought she was much of a Paladin to begin with.

The only thing I hope not to see is a summary execution. The journey she'll take now is too interesting to ignore.

My guess? She teams up with the Linear Guild, freeing them from capture. After all, in her warped mind, anyone that opposes the OotS must be good.

[rosebud]

I have to say, Roy seems to swept these issues aside. Amazing what happens when two flawed characters meet. Still hoping for Durkon, but he has the low Charisma penalty.

[Amon Star]

I refuse to start another thread, so I'll post it here.

One problem is that different fans view Miko in different ways. She has always been an antagonist, but some see her as a villain--an obstacle to be overcome by the OotS on their journey to telling jokes to one another. Oh, and saving the world, too.

Personally, even though I know that Miko is an antagonist, I've always liked her character ever since she was revealed. I don't want her to join the OotS--that wouldn't be right. However, I saw sparks of good in her up until the latest story arc of #406-408. I never saw the zealotry or self-righteousness that others saw. Arrogance, yeah. But then, so is Roy. That doesn't really make it right.

I know that she was originally meant to be the kind of paladin that is played annoyingly in a party. The problem is that she was never part of a party! She annoyed the OotS because she was their captor.

Now if she had been sent on her mission to capture OotS with a party of her own, then the caricature part could have been filled out better. She probably would be less well liked (well, by the Miko fans anyway).

Anyway, I will be praying to the Twelve for Miko, to let her see the error of her ways and to find a way to redeem herself. Oh, and also to give Roy a case of hives.

That is one of the most intelligent things I've read on these forums in a long, long time. Sir, I salute you. :cool:

Also, I've never thanked you for putting a Goblins link in your signature. if it wasn't for you, I would never have encountered the adventures of Names and Co. Again, sir, I salute you. :cool:

[Lord of the Helms]

I'm not a Miko fan as a person, but her character is a brilliant story moving one. She was almost never funny or even entertaining on her own, but she enabled Rich to create some of the most entertaining and reactionary moments of this comic. I think the whole "pour sake on Miko and set her on fire" strip garnered the heaviest flow of comments for a single strip at that time, and I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't still the most commented on strip.

So, Miko the paladin was a royal pain in the backside for OotS members, but she really created a ton of story and joke moments.


That, I can agree with. I wouldn't ever want the strip without her - she has so many incredibly entertaining moments (the MitD encounter springs to mind)

I personally am a Miko fan in the sense that I absolutely LOVE to hate her :smalltongue:

[Dausuul]

I didn't include myself in the Mikophile set, but I'm rather surprised to see a dearth of fans. Not fans of Miko the Blackguard, but Miko as she is, no matter what happens to her. There are some who expressed sorrow. And some who feel she is now an interesting character. And those who wonder what she will do or become. But only a few who set aside the future what ifs and just focused on the moment of recognition.

Regarding Miko, obviously the next strips may or may not tell, but when you get past the shock of The Fall and the humor of Shojo's last words, you're left with pathos and emptiness. At the moment of her fall, it seems hard not to like her. (Even if that feeling only lasts a single panel.)

Like her? No. Pity her? A little bit. I'd pity her more if her first reaction had been "What have I done?" rather than "How can this be?"

[Marller]

I like her. I think she is a tragic antagonist.