Skills for a proper adventurer

[Vogonjeltz]

For each class, what are the class skills you would consider required to be considered a "successful" member if the class?

For example:

Wizard: spellcraft, knowledge (arcana), craft (metalworking), concentration

Spellcraft because they need it to learn extra spells and for identifying magic in game, knowledge arcana for similar rp reasons, the craft skill so one can assemble their own magic items, and concentration because casting during distracting events is going to happen.

What are your picks?

[Dming For Noobs]

Well, for a lot of bard class features, feats, and PRCs, you need preform. But other than that, you can play any class without using any special skills. But for the stereotype:

Barbarian: Intimidate
Cleric: Knowledge Religion
Druid: Knowledge nature, spellcraft, concentration, survival
Fighter: Intimidate
Monk: Jump
Paladin: Diplomacy?
Ranger: Survival, Hide, Move silently
Rouge: Open lock, hide, move silently

[Telonius]

Monk: Jump, Tumble, Diplomacy, Use Magic Device, Concentration

Paladin: Intimidate, Sense Motive, Ride, Knowledge (Religion), Diplomacy, Forgery

Rogue: Bluff, Hide, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Listen, Disable Device, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Forgery

Druid: Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Geography), Survival, Spellcraft, Heal, Concentration, Handle Animal

Wizard: Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Planes), Spellcraft, Concentration, Decipher Script

Cleric: Knowledge (Religion), Knowledge (Planes), Spellcraft, Concentration, Heal, Sense Motive

Sorcerer: Knoweldge (Arcana), Spellcraft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff

Barbarian: Intimidate, Survival, Handle Animal

Ranger: Search, Survival, Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Geography), Handle Animal, Craft (fletcher/bowyer), Survival, Spot, Listen, Move Silently, Hide.

Fighter: Climb, Balance, Use Rope, Spot, Ride, Intimidate.

Bard: Perform, Gather Information, Listen, Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nobility), Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Concentration.

Everyone: 5 ranks of Balance, so some 6-year-old with a bag of marbles can't ruin your day.

[Stoneback]

I don't think that your class matters. There are only a few skills that every character ought to have: Spellcraft, Listen and/or Spot, and Hide.

Move Silently is nice; Bluff and Sense Motive are nice. But really the first 3 or 4 are all you need.

[Thurbane]

Any: Spot and Listen. Seriously. Surprise rounds suck.

I am currently in a low-powered, low point buy party. No one has ranks in Spot (no one has it as a class skill, and most of us have low Int, so no cross-class points to spare), 1 character has a couple in listen, and most of the party has used Wis as a dump stat (8).

The amount of times we get ambushed is just plain ridiculous.

[Der_DWSage]

Class definitely matters in this kind of context, Stoneback. (Not to mention that I find your choice of Hide an odd one, and Spellcraft is nonsensical for most mundane adventurers.)

But to keep in with the trend...

Mundane classes:Everyone needs Spot and Listen. Not just because it extends your expected lifespan significantly, but because it's also an iconic thing for the Warrior of the party to notice the ambusher before he strikes, using his finely tuned paranoia sense.

Monk:As above, but with the whole host of Dex-based skills in addition. And a few of the strength ones. It's hard being an iconic Monk.

Ranger:As above, but also Survival, Hide, and Move Silently. For obvious hunting reasons.

Barbarian:As above, but with Intimidate. For even more obvious reasons.

Wizards:Spellcraft, Knowledge(Arcana), Decipher Script, and possibly Knowledge(Planes), depending. He needs to know magic, learn magic, breathe magic, and occasionally make unwise deals with beings from beyond his own plane.

Sorcerers:None. Seriously. To be an iconic Sorcerer, it'd actually be better if you had no spellcraft or knowledge(Arcana) ranks at all! You are magic, why do you care about book-learning? (Note that this is about skills needed to be successful in your chosen profession, not skills that would be really wise to take. No way I would ever play a serious Sorcerer with no ranks in Spellcraft.)

Clerics:Diplomacy and Knowledge(Religion). Everything else is gravy, but Clerics are expected to be experts in their faith, and be counselors of people.

Druids:Survival and Knowledge(Nature). Like Clerics, Druids are expected to be masters of their domain, and to know everything about every living, breathing thing in the world.

Bard:Perform(Something), Diplomacy or Bluff, Listen. Perform for their bread and butter, Diplomacy or Bluff to convince people it's a good idea to keep them around, and Listen to have a keen ear for their tunes. It's nice, but not needed, to have ranks in some kind of Knowledge skill. Bardic Lore can suffice.

Paladin:See Cleric, add Spot and Listen.

Rogue:Move Silently, Hide, Open Lock, Disable Device, Spot, Listen, Search, and Tumble.

That seems like a good list for iconic things, and living while doing nothing more than their chosen profession. Adventuring skill lists are obviously quite different.

[Vogonjeltz]

I am surprised the basic skills aren't getting much mention (climb, swim, and jump)

Does no one adventure in caves or face the perils of going to underwater caverns anymore?

[Thurbane]

Climb, Swim and Jump are all important early game, but become somewhat "wasted" skill points later on, once Spider Climb, Water Walk and Fly spells and effects are available. I suppose this is a good case where the PHB2 retraining rules can come in.

[Der_DWSage]

Eh. Monks will somewhat need Jump. Climb and Swim...not many people go on cliff-climbing excursions, or adventure in aquatic areas. You can swim with 0 ranks, after all. And if you really need to climb a cliff, that's what masterwork tools, pitons, and your friendly Sherpa Guide are for.

[KorbeltheReader]

I agree that climb, jump, and swim should be necessary skills, but honestly I almost never see them used in my groups. People tend to make nice, flat dungeons, even when they're caverns. Totally unrealistic, I know.

[Vogonjeltz]

I agree that climb, jump, and swim should be necessary skills, but honestly I almost never see them used in my groups. People tend to make nice, flat dungeons, even when they're caverns. Totally unrealistic, I know.

Hrm I guess that's the core problem, most skills go underused. Do you think that's because DMs just don't consider that aspect of the game, or are deliberately pulling punches against parties who lack the skills required?

[Kraken]

Most classes are spread pretty darned thin on skill points, putting ranks in swim and so forth is painful enough that covering these through other means is generally preferable, as skill points are very precious as a resource.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

Expected or proper skills are the primary reason I prefer the Pathfinder combined skills.

First if there were a all adventurers list it would probably look like this.

Listen, Spot: Being ambushed sucks. Also in fiction people we'd model as high level have these nearly universally rather than

Ride : A little, enough to make DC 20 semi reliably.

Jump and Climb: Enough to autopass DC 5; longjump 5 ft and climb with a wall to brace against or knotted rope.

Hide/Move Silently: Highly dependent on the game; If the game is always static dungeons and there are next to no reactions for stuff that happens in hallways it's not neaded. If the DM doesn't follow the distance modifiers to perception and let the party hang 50-60 ft back from a scout and maxes every enemy's perception, this becomes a situation where the whole party maxes it or it's useless.

Obviously, these skills aren't truly mandatory, but I feel that their absense needs an explanation, this applies to both the generic skills and the class by class ones.

Barbarian: Intimidate and Survival. Barbarian may actually be the most easy to skill out class, it's easy for him to take everything expected of an adventurer, everything expected of a Barbarian and still have some skill points for character development.

Bard: Diplomacy, Perform quite possibly multiple performs, Bluff, Sense Motive, Knowledges. Bard is in a weird place. A lot is expected of classic bard, but I feel like Bard is given more wiggle room in groups that normally don't like classes played in non standard ways.

Cleric: Knowledge Religion, Concentration, Diplomacy three skills exactly what a 12 Int or Human Cleric gets. She need more skillpoints to either have generic adventurer skills or take sense motive. I find Clerics are the most easily forgiven for not filling the generic adventuer role between sheltered life back stories, Full Plate ACP, and nobody wanting to rag on the party mom.

Fighter: Do to the "fighters can't do anything" stereotype a Fighter is free to spend his skill points however he wants. He can be knightly and take Ride and ccDiplomacy. He can be vigilent and take ccListen/Spot and a craft for armor maintenance. I often favor dumb jock, Jump, Climb, Swim.

Monk: I find that nobody ever knows what to "expect" from a monk, also I haven't seen one played in the last 6 years. They probably have a similar blank slate to Fighter.

Paladin: Ride, Diplomacy, Knowledge Religion, Knowledge Nobility. Poor Pally, he has 2+int and 4 must have skills before looking at "all needs".

Ranger: Survival, Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot and whatever skill covers that thing Aragorn did.

Rogue: Oy Vey, People's perceptions of Rogue skills based on it's 8+int skill points are kind of like some people's perceptions of what the goverment should be able to do based on tax income. I've heard exasperated cries at tables for Rogues not having high; Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Search, Disable Device, Bluff, Climb, Jump, Bluff, Ride, Use Magic Device, and probably every knowledge though I'm not sure. I didn't mention Tumble,because other people don't care about the Rogue taking fall damage and not being able to safely Sneak Attack. Because of expectationd 8 skill point rogue is actually the poorest in sp when it comes to customizing their character and taking background skills.

Sorcerer/Wizard: Wizard is in good shape just being expected to have Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge Arcana. They can easily take a minimal amounts of the generic adventurer skills if they don't want to be teased for being a gimp at low levels and/or take lots of additional knowledges that their party will thank them for having. Sorecer kinda get's screwed here by being Wizard's little brother. People tend to have identical expectations despite Wizard's huge skill point advantage from Int SAD.

[Thurbane]

Pet peeve: how few classes get Spot and/or Listen on their skill list. I mean a Commoner gets these, for crying out loud. Why not a professional adventurer like a Fighter (note: in my game, Fighters are houeseruled to have 4 skill points/level, with an expanded skill list that includes Spot and Listen, among others).

[Vogonjeltz]

Pet peeve: how few classes get Spot and/or Listen on their skill list. I mean a Commoner gets these, for crying out loud. Why not a professional adventurer like a Fighter (note: in my game, Fighters are houeseruled to have 4 skill points/level, with an expanded skill list that includes Spot and Listen, among others).

Fighters could take guerrilla fighter (or is it scout?) to get those skills, but reviewing the skill lists makes it seem like it's more of a ranger/barbarian/rogue/Druid thing to sink points into either.

[ryu]

No love for forgery? Really? That's surprising.

[weckar]

Forgery hardly ever comes up. I'd say even appraise has more value.
Interestingly; Swim, Jump AND Climb happened in my last game session, in the span of 5 minutes, when someone tried jumping between two ships (and failed).

I do support PF-style skill condensing. I'd fuse Iajutsu focus with Concentration, for example. Maybe even with Autohypnosis.

Daydreams aside, I think vital skills depend heavily on the type of game you run. I personally find Knowledge(History) invaluable on any character.

[ryu]

Forgery hardly ever comes up. I'd say even appraise has more value.
Interestingly; Swim, Jump AND Climb happened in my last game session, in the span of 5 minutes, when someone tried jumping between two ships (and failed).

I do support PF-style skill condensing. I'd fuse Iajutsu focus with Concentration, for example. Maybe even with Autohypnosis.

Daydreams aside, I think vital skills depend heavily on the type of game you run. I personally find Knowledge(History) invaluable on any character.

Which is exactly why it's one of the most amazing low level skills. It never comes up so no one really bothers countering it. Then you take ranks in it and make it come up. In other words no one expects that the forgery-based Spanish Inquisition.

[weckar]

We may have to start its own topic for it, but I can see only very limited possibilities for 'making' it come up.

[ryu]

We may have to start its own topic for it, but I can see only very limited possibilities for 'making' it come up.

Fleece some free land by claiming deed to it. Claim a person's identity with forged credentials, heck just straight up use it to enhance glibnessed up bluff checks even further. There's a reason I said low level skill. The sorts of things you can expect to do with it regularly are somewhat small in comparison to spells. They are, however, hilarious and basically a sure thing.

[Kraken]

The big upshot to forgery is that it's opposed by the reader's own forgery check (IE, the victim), which is probably very low. Forging anything that doesn't require a specific person's handwriting nabs you a +8 bonus, too, and the provided bonuses the reader of forged works can get per the PHB don't provide much opportunity to overcome that substantial bonus, so it can be very easy to fool people. I don't typically put ranks in it, however the skill isn't trained only, and therefore even without ranks, it can be used effectively by any int based class.

[ryu]

The big upshot to forgery is that it's opposed by the reader's own forgery check (IE, the victim), which is probably very low. Forging anything that doesn't require a specific person's handwriting nabs you a +8 bonus, too, and the provided bonuses the reader of forged works can get per the PHB don't provide much opportunity to overcome that substantial bonus, so it can be very easy to fool people. I don't typically put ranks in it, however the skill isn't trained only, and therefore even without ranks, it can be used effectively by any int based class.

True. True. The reason I sometimes put ranks in it anyway is that I like getting away with silly things.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

No love for forgery? Really? That's surprising.

The party Rogue is a generalist thief/adventurer.

A Forger is a specialist of the criminal world. Blue Colar aside, in most shows above thieves and roguish types they outsource their forgery.

I agree that it's effects can be impressive, but I was under the impression this thread was about proper/typical/stereotyped/expected rather than optimal. In this sense your arguments about it being unexpected are self defeating, it's poorly defended against, because it isn't widely used. If it was part of the standard loadout it would be expected and therefore more well defended.

[Vogonjeltz]

The party Rogue is a generalist thief/adventurer.

A Forger is a specialist of the criminal world. Blue Colar aside, in most shows above thieves and roguish types they outsource their forgery.

I agree that it's effects can be impressive, but I was under the impression this thread was about proper/typical/stereotyped/expected rather than optimal. In this sense your arguments about it being unexpected are self defeating, it's poorly defended against, because it isn't widely used. If it was part of the standard loadout it would be expected and therefore more well defended.

It's more of a Rorschach test, to see what others consider the "must have" skills when making a character of a class.

I'm curious to see how much flexibility each class actually has by seeing if there is a general consensus on what skills should be taken first.