If Tarquin had his greataxe

[MagicalMeat]

Had Tarquin not lost his great axe in the pyramid, how would that affect his battle with the Order? Would he have been able to successfully kill Roy? Would Julio take damage in their duel? Please disregard the story conventions for this, so don't say things like "Tarquin would kill Roy, but that can't happen because it would ruin the story."

[Keltest]

Tarquin wouldn't be able to kill Roy with his axe in that scene, because it would cut Elan in half. Julio would probably be in a bit of trouble, but Tarquin is competent enough with that dagger of his to do moderate damage regardless.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Tarquin was without his axe, and Laurin faced V after wasting a lot of her power points. I predict a time later where the order will need to face them, when Tarquin and Laurin are at full power.

Yeah Tarquin with his axe would have been much deadlier, and probably would out match Julio amongst other things. Roy woudn't stand a chance against him.

[Ramien]

Tarquin was without his axe, and Laurin faced V after wasting a lot of her power points. I predict a time later where the order will need to face them, when Tarquin and Laurin are at full power.

Yeah Tarquin with his axe would have been much deadlier, and probably would out match Julio amongst other things. Roy woudn't stand a chance against him.

Why? What does Tarquin have to offer any of the Vector Legion to pull them away from the job at hand? He traded favors with Laurin, used his favor with Miron, and lost Malack, all with nothing to show for it at the end. Laurin and Miron might return investigating the gates now that their curiousity is sparked, but they don't have anything personal against the Order, and certainly aren't going to want to help Tarquin's delusions any further after seeing what it's cost already. I mean, just look at it from the point of view of anyone who isn't an egotistical maniac: "You mean you want us to get your son even angrier so he comes back and kills you, stretching the rest of us even farther in our plans to rule behind the scenes? Pass."

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If Tarquin does face the Order again, which I think is likely, he might be better prepared. If anything, he would not fool around like he did outside of the pyramid. However, I don't think that the rest of the Vector Legion will necessarily be there. Laurin and Moron both owe no favors to Tarquin, and I doubt they will be so eager to attack the Order after what happened last time. As for Jacinda and SPG, it is possible that they will come with Tarquin. However, it is unknown how much of a challenge they will be for the Order.

[Miriel]

Why? What does Tarquin have to offer any of the Vector Legion to pull them away from the job at hand? He traded favors with Laurin, used his favor with Miron, and lost Malack, all with nothing to show for it at the end. Laurin and Miron might return investigating the gates now that their curiousity is sparked, but they don't have anything personal against the Order, and certainly aren't going to want to help Tarquin's delusions any further after seeing what it's cost already. I mean, just look at it from the point of view of anyone who isn't an egotistical maniac: "You mean you want us to get your son even angrier so he comes back and kills you, stretching the rest of us even farther in our plans to rule behind the scenes? Pass."
Your post did not answer the quote you cited.

[oppyu]

He may have been able to stop Roy from getting past him and attacking Miron (Do Attacks of Opportunity impede movement? I imagine there'd have to be a Fort or Concentration check to continue your planned movement while someone hacks at you with a giant axe.) which could have led to Miron successfully casting Horrid Wilting and the Vector Legion getting a few kills before Julio arrived.

[orrion]

Tarquin was without his axe, and Laurin faced V after wasting a lot of her power points. I predict a time later where the order will need to face them, when Tarquin and Laurin are at full power.

Yeah Tarquin with his axe would have been much deadlier, and probably would out match Julio amongst other things. Roy woudn't stand a chance against him.

Um, Laurin WAS at her full power. She just, y'know, used it.

Besides, it's not like the Order was at full power either. Belkar was near death and Durkon was out of spells.

[Red XIV]

Yeah Tarquin with his axe would have been much deadlier, and probably would out match Julio amongst other things.
Julio considers Tarquin one of his B-list villains (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0938.html). It strikes me as unlikely that he'd be "outmatched". It's true that Tarquin was poorly armed in their fight, but Julio wasn't even taking him seriously. He was acting like it's a game rather than a battle.

[Ramien]

Your post did not answer the quote you cited.

Sure it did. It responded to the 'I predict a time later where the order will need to face them, when Tarquin and Laurin are at full power' part of the quote. I don't think that will happen.

[rbetieh]

If he had a greataxe, he would not have had a whip, which he used to great effect to put down 2 spellcasters with 1 action......

I think this arc is the best we will see out of Tarquin. If Elan is right and he is not the main villain, then any appearance from here on out will be worse than the first.

[factotum]

If Elan is right and he is not the main villain

If? Of course he's not the main villain, we already know that Redcloak (and his sidekick Xykon) is the main villain of the piece--just the relative number of strip panels they've appeared in should make that clear enough.

[Miriel]

Sure it did. It responded to the 'I predict a time later where the order will need to face them, when Tarquin and Laurin are at full power' part of the quote. I don't think that will happen.
But that can happen at any time. Not necessarily near the next gate. Predicting that the Order will fight Tarquin's team just means you expect that Elan's story won't be resolved in a duel with his father and that Tarquin will call on his friends. That's it.

On Tarquin's performance with his axe... Remember that he did more or less solo the Order (OK, without V) on top of the pyramid. He ordered retreat inside because his allies were getting killed, not because he was in danger.

[Sir_Dr_D]

Sure it did. It responded to the 'I predict a time later where the order will need to face them, when Tarquin and Laurin are at full power' part of the quote. I don't think that will happen.

Well I didn't think the conflict would happen for the same reason. If anything it would be because Laurin pulls them into the plot with the rift.

[orrion]

On Tarquin's performance with his axe... Remember that he did more or less solo the Order (OK, without V) on top of the pyramid. He ordered retreat inside because his allies were getting killed, not because he was in danger.

The Order also thought he was Thog at the time and fought accordingly. It's unlikely that Durkon, for instance, would have tried a Hold Person on Tarquin if he'd known. On Thog, though? Durkon had already hit Thog with that spell and been successful.

There's a gray area due to the element of surprise and foreknowledge.

[The Pilgrim]

Yeah Tarquin with his axe would have been much deadlier, and probably would out match Julio amongst other things. Roy woudn't stand a chance against him.

Tarquin was fighting with Roy's Greatsword. So it's 2d6 vs 1d12 base damage. Plus the Greenhilt Sword is a +5 weapon, it's in no way inferior to Tarquin's Great Axe.

So, not that much difference.


Tarquin wouldn't be able to kill Roy with his axe in that scene, because it would cut Elan in half. Julio would probably be in a bit of trouble, but Tarquin is competent enough with that dagger of his to do moderate damage regardless.

Tarquin did not initially face Julio with his knife, but with the Greenhilt Sword. He only pulled the knife after Julio disarmed him.

[wyrmhole]

If we're trying to assess what kind of threat Tarquin is to the Order (and I'd say that while not unbeatable or anything he's a straight-up bad-ass and should not be underestimated), why worry about his great axe?

I mean Tarquin is clearly comfortable with a wide array of weapons (not that this is a surprise for a skilled fighter). He got that great axe out of storage because he was posing as Thog, and Thog uses a great axe.

If his goal had been to choose the single most effective weapon in his arsenal for fighting the Order, who knows what he would have picked? Who knows what it is that he has Weapon Specializations in?

P.S. Julio was fighting defensively as a diversion tactic. He was treating the fight like a joke because that was a good way to keep Tarquin's attention. Using that Dashing Swordsman snideness to maximum advantage. Whereas playing "who can lose more hit points" with Tarquin probably would not have been to his advantage -- I'm just guessing, but I bet in the past he's only dueled with Tarquin as long as was necessary for his daring plan to rescue his Nth bride.

[Keltest]

If we're trying to assess what kind of threat Tarquin is to the Order (and I'd say that while not unbeatable or anything he's a straight-up bad-ass and should not be underestimated), why worry about his great axe?

I mean Tarquin is clearly comfortable with a wide array of weapons (not that this is a surprise for a skilled fighter). He got that great axe out of storage because he was posing as Thog, and Thog uses a great axe.

If his goal had been to choose the single most effective weapon in his arsenal for fighting the Order, who knows what he would have picked? Who knows what it is that he has Weapon Specializations in?

Whenever he has been portrayed fighting a battle he was prepared for (and not disarmed in) he has been using his axe.

[wyrmhole]

Whenever he has been portrayed fighting a battle he was prepared for (and not disarmed in) he has been using his axe.

Was that in one of the flashbacks? I must have forgotten.

[Kish]

Tarquin pulled the axe out of storage, as noted. I think there's a fair chance that it's less enchanted than the dagger which he keeps with himself and he would have done worse had he been fighting with it.

[archon_huskie]

Question: Was the great axe destroyed when the gate blew up?

[oppyu]

Tarquin pulled the axe out of storage, as noted. I think there's a fair chance that it's less enchanted than the dagger which he keeps with himself and he would have done worse had he been fighting with it.
Yet another recent quote I can't find in the Index, but I'm fairly certain Rich said that the dagger was completely unenchanted and that Nale was just super-low on HP and too angry with his father to act like it. Ergo "Come on Dad! Kill me! I dare yo-glrrrrk"

[Kish]

I don't remember him saying anything about the dagger's enchantment level.

[Vinyadan]

Tarquin seemed pretty sure he could have killed Durkon, had nobody else been around. Of course, this could just be Tarquin's headcanon.
But I think he likes the axe for doing some pretty moves, like hooking other weapons and such. It would be his style, cool moves everywhere and keeping the enemies at bay while showboating.

[Keltest]

Was that in one of the flashbacks? I must have forgotten.

The very first time we see it isn in "the semi-secret origin of Elan and Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)"

followed by "The Significantly-More-Secret Origin of Tarquin and Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html)"

[oppyu]

I don't remember him saying anything about the dagger's enchantment level.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15875561&postcount=24

Got it! Bah, lately I've been having to scour through old threads for Giant quotes like an animal. Disgraceful :smallmad:

Anyway, it doesn't specifically say that the dagger isn't enchanted, but it implies it.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

As far as I can tell, these are the main actions that may have been affected by if Tarquin had his greataxe.

When Roy charged Miron, if Tarquin had his proper weapon, he may have been able to stop him.
When he cut threw Elan and Roy, he might have killed Roy. However, it is quite possible that Roy's sword is just as good as the greataxe, so this is uncertain. I'm not entirely clear on what the rules are regarding stabbing through one person to another, so if someone could explain that to me, I would appreciate that.
If the greataxe is better than Roy's sword, he might have faced better against Julio. However, Julio might have been rescued in a similar fashion to how he was in the actual story. Also, Tarquin would have lost his greataxe when Julio disarmed him anyways.

[Kish]

"Not some massive unstoppable super-dagger," I see.

(Of course, I see no evidence that the axe he had in storage was a massive unstoppable super-greataxe, either.)

[Keltest]

"Not some massive unstoppable super-dagger," I see.

(Of course, I see no evidence that the axe he had in storage was a massive unstoppable super-greataxe, either.)

ALL greataxes are unstoppable super-greataxes.

That's why my dad's wizard carried one around when he wasn't strong enough to swing it.

[orrion]

ALL greataxes are unstoppable super-greataxes.

That's why my dad's wizard carried one around when he wasn't strong enough to swing it.

How did that end up working out for him?

[Keltest]

How did that end up working out for him?

It looked cool. Mostly, he cast spells. But if he ever needed a greataxe, he had one.

[wyrmhole]

The very first time we see it isn in "the semi-secret origin of Elan and Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html)"

followed by "The Significantly-More-Secret Origin of Tarquin and Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html)"


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15875561&postcount=24

Ah, thanks! I'd point out that neither shows him actually fighting with the axe -- one is him in a procession of some kind with baby Nale in hand, and the other shows him beheading a defeated foe in their thrown room which would call for an axe. While the fight has him using sword and shield. Was he prepared and decided that would be better? Or was the sword and shield just what was handy? Who knows?

But in any case it shows a certain fondness for great axes.


Anyway, it doesn't specifically say that the dagger isn't enchanted, but it implies it.

It only implies that it isn't super-powerful and the reason it killed Nale was because Nale had bupkiss for hp left. I doubt Tarquin would carry around a non-magical dagger as his backup weapon when he could easily be carrying a magical one. It just makes no sense.

[wyrmhole]

It looked cool. Mostly, he cast spells. But if he ever needed a greataxe, he had one.

They make a decent serving tray for fajitas. Or for getting pizzas out of the oven.

[Keltest]

They make a decent serving tray for fajitas. Or for getting pizzas out of the oven.

see? why would you NOT carry a greataxe everywhere you go?

[wyrmhole]

see? why would you NOT carry a greataxe everywhere you go?

The dang TSA. :(

[Keltest]

The dang TSA. :(

:thog:greataxes can take care of them too (not that I would condone that behavior in any way. That would be wrong.)

[wyrmhole]

:thog:greataxes can take care of them too (not that I would condone that behavior in any way. That would be wrong.)

:vaarsuvius: It lacks the elegance and finality of a suitably large explosion but would be effective if applied liberally enough.

:elan: But then you'd spill the fajitas!

[St Fan]

It only implies that it isn't super-powerful and the reason it killed Nale was because Nale had bupkiss for hp left. I doubt Tarquin would carry around a non-magical dagger as his backup weapon when he could easily be carrying a magical one. It just makes no sense.

Considering Tarquin easily sundered Elan's magic rapier with his dagger, said dagger is not only probably enchanted, but also very likely to be made of adamatine.

[Emanick]

Tarquin pulled the axe out of storage, as noted. I think there's a fair chance that it's less enchanted than the dagger which he keeps with himself and he would have done worse had he been fighting with it.

Unless Tarquin specializes in dagger-fighting (and as he seems to link his greataxe with his adventuring days in panel 5 here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html), that seems somewhat unlikely to me), I doubt he'd be as dangerous with his dagger as with the axe. A greataxe does 1d12 + 1.5(Strength bonus) while a dagger does 1d4 + 0.5(Strength bonus), so the dagger would have to be waaay more heavily enchanted than the axe to be more deadly. If Tarquin has a Strength score of around 20, which is honestly towards the lower range of what I'd expect, he'd be doing, on average, 9 points of damage more with a greataxe than with a dagger with a similar level of enchantment.

Of course, the precise numbers don't matter so much outside the Geekery thread, as Rich is hardly crunching numbers when he writes battle scenes. But the general picture still applies, I'd say.

[Keltest]

Considering Tarquin easily sundered Elan's magic rapier with his dagger, said dagger is not only probably enchanted, but also very likely to be made of adamatine.

Oh really? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html)

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Oh really? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html)
Keep in mind, that was Elan's old rapier, whereas the one Tarquin squandered could have very well been the one he got from the dungeon (I don't remember how that one compared to his old one), or the enchanted one Julio gave him.

[Keltest]

Keep in mind, that was Elan's old rapier, whereas the one Tarquin squandered could have very well been the one he got from the dungeon (I don't remember how that one compared to his old one), or the enchanted one Julio gave him.

Even so, it wouldn't be at all out of character for Rich to make Elan's rapier getting sundered ridiculously easy a brick joke.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Even so, it wouldn't be at all out of character for Rich to make Elan's rapier getting sundered ridiculously easy a brick joke.
That is possible. I think it may also be likely that Tarquin's dagger is at least better than a typical dagger.

[Vinyadan]

It looked cool. Mostly, he cast spells. But if he ever needed a greataxe, he had one.

With tenser's transformation, that could come in handy :smallsmile:

[theinsulabot]

If? Of course he's not the main villain, we already know that Redcloak (and his sidekick Xykon) is the main villain of the piece--just the relative number of strip panels they've appeared in should make that clear enough.

That is actually debatable you know. Recent evidence presents the possibility that xykon and red cloak may ultimately be overtaken as the true villain by the snarl itself.

Not saying its a definite, but definitely worth keeping in mind.

[factotum]

That is actually debatable you know. Recent evidence presents the possibility that xykon and red cloak may ultimately be overtaken as the true villain by the snarl itself.

If everything we've been told is true, Stickworld will be unmade and remade by the Gods if the Snarl shows the slightest signs of escaping, which makes it rather difficult for it to become a major villain--at most, it is the McGuffin which drives the heroes and villains to conflict, rather than a villain in itself.

[orrion]

If everything we've been told is true, Stickworld will be unmade and remade by the Gods if the Snarl shows the slightest signs of escaping, which makes it rather difficult for it to become a major villain--at most, it is the McGuffin which drives the heroes and villains to conflict, rather than a villain in itself.

By extension that means any new world created would eventually need to be unmade and remade again because there's no evidence that something special made the rifts, and the only way to prevent such a thing is to get rid of the Snarl permanently. The story isn't really resolved if rocks fall and everyone dies despite anything the heroes can do.

Also, there's no reassurance that the Snarl wouldn't realize what the heck is going on this time when the gods start weaving the world around it again.

[Newwby]

Also, there's no reassurance that the Snarl wouldn't realize what the heck is going on this time when the gods start weaving the world around it again.

I'd wager on that, to the point that the gods are less likely to unmake the world in the first place. Unless of course the order fails and no one else is aware of the issue in which case they'd have no choice but to attempt it anyway.

[archon_huskie]

Question: Was the great axe destroyed when the gate blew up?

Followup question, has there been any effort to retrieve it if it survived?