Can simulacrums level up?

[RoboEmperor]

This is still related to my super computer thing.
Can a simulacrum level up? Like you simulacrum a pit fiend, who has a crazy high intelligence score, and then you train him, level him up as a wizard so he fully understands magic and does calculations, craft items for you, etc?

If not, what if he true mind switches (via a magic item) into a real body, like a human or something?

What if instead of a pit fiend, you simulacrum some guy? Like a level 15 wizard? Can the simulacrum level up to a level 16 wizard?

[rmnimoc]

A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities.

Sorry, looks like you need a plan C.

Of course the rules still fail to address how True mind switch interacts with this spell, but I imagine it still wouldn't be able to level, not being a real intelligent being, instead just being a reasonably good imitation of one.

[Helluin]

I don't know if the True Mind Switch trick would work, but Simulacra can't gain experience or level up, as per the spell description.

That being said, I wonder if Psychic Reformation works

[Silva Stormrage]

The clause is absent from the ice assassin spell if that helps. You might be able to argue that those can level up.

[Karnith]

The clause is absent from the ice assassin spell if that helps. You might be able to argue that those can level up.
No, it's still there. See e.g. Frostburn p. 98 or here on the mothership (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030124a):

Ice Assassin
Illusion (Shadow)
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M, XP
Casting Time: 8 hours
Range: Touch
Area: One duplicate creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The ice assassin spell is in many ways an improved version of simulacrum. Developed by powerful frost mages who have more than their fair share of enemies to fight, an ice assassin is an effective way to destroy an enemy without putting yourself at risk.

An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near perfect duplicate of an already existing creature. The duplicate is formed entirely out of ice, but once the spell is in effect, it appears as an exact duplicate to all but its source, who always sees the ice assassin as an animated ice statue of himself. The ice assassin possesses all of the skills, abilities, and memories possessed by the original, but its personality is warped and twisted by an all-consuming need to slay the original. It also constantly uses locates creature on its duplicate at a caster level equal to your own. If its quarry is outside the range of this effect, the ice assassin must rely on its own cleverness or advice from you to track the original. In addition, the ice assassin has the cold subtype, which makes it immune to cold damage but imparts a weakness to fire damage (on a failed saving throw against a fire attack, the ice assassin suffers double damage). Creatures familiar with the original might detect the ruse with a successful Spot check. You must make a Disguise check (gaining a +10 circumstance bonus from the power of the spell) when you cast the spell to determine how good the likeness is.

At all times, the ice assassin remains under your absolute command. You possess a telepathic link to the ice assassin, and when you concentrate, you receive a clear image of the area surrounding the ice assassin as if you were scrying on it. Further, you can have any spell you cast on yourself affect the ice assassin as well; this includes spells with a target of "You" only. These benefits persist as long as you and the ice assassin remain within a mile of each other. If the ice assassin travels beyond this range, it continues to function and seek out its nemesis, but you have no direct control over it.

An ice assassin has no ability to become more powerful; it cannot increase its level or abilities. Damage caused to the ice assassin can be repaired only via a complex process requiring 1 day, 100 gp per hit point, and a fully equipped laboratory. If the ice assassin is reduced to 0 hit points by any damage save for fire damage, it explodes into a burst of icy shrapnel in a 20-foot radius that causes 1d6 points of cold damage for every other caster level you possess; a successful Reflex saving throw halves the damage done. An ice assassin slain by fire damage simply melts into a pool of water.

Material Component: This spell is cast over the ice statue of the creature to be duplicated. Some portion of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, and so on) must be placed inside the ice statue as it is constructed. In addition, the spell requires powdered diamond worth 20,000 gp.

XP Cost: 5,000.(Emphasis mine)

Both versions contain that line, I just used the text from the mothership (which predates the Frostburn version) because it's easier to copy.

[Drachasor]

I don't know if the True Mind Switch trick would work, but Simulacra can't gain experience or level up, as per the spell description.

That being said, I wonder if Psychic Reformation works

Simulacrum have no ability to do so. That doesn't mean you can magic-up changes in them (or they can't do it in themselves if they have the right spells). It just means they have no innate ability to do so, unlike the original creature.

Otherwise you end up with silliness like they can't be buffed.

[Silva Stormrage]

No, it's still there. See e.g. Frostburn p. 98 or here on the mothership (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20030124a):
(Emphasis mine)

Both versions contain that line, I just used the text from the mothership (which predates the Frostburn version) because it's easier to copy.

Oh nvm then. Surprising I didn't realize this.

[Psyren]

Otherwise you end up with silliness like they can't be buffed.

I'm honestly fine with that. Both spells are broken enough already.

[Drachasor]

I'm honestly fine with that. Both spells are broken enough already.

Funny, you brought up that weird interpretation whilst arguing Simulacrum wasn't broken (in another thread). You were quite insistent that it wasn't. Now you are saying it is?

[Phelix-Mu]

I've allowed psy reform, under the idea that switching ability A for ability B is nominally not an increase in power, as the game has no way to distinguish the power level of given feats or skills or spells. Of course, in practice, this results in a broad array of final power levels for a simulacrum, but generally, if the original was highly optimized, the psy reformed simulacrum will not be more powerful.

Psyren is right, though. Aside from RAW TO exercises, simulacrum abuse is so Easy Button that it almost isn't worth doing. What boggles my mind is that they looked at simulacrum and said "you know what? let's make a full strength version that is obsessed with killing the original, and then leave out any kind of mechanical way to define that obsession."

*facepalm*

Part of the problem is that it seems they thought a wizard would simulacrum/IA other creatures, and that access to parts of other creatures would be hard to come by. Alas.

[Drachasor]

I've allowed psy reform, under the idea that switching ability A for ability B is nominally not an increase in power, as the game has no way to distinguish the power level of given feats or skills or spells. Of course, in practice, this results in a broad array of final power levels for a simulacrum, but generally, if the original was highly optimized, the psy reformed simulacrum will not be more powerful.

Psyren is right, though. Aside from RAW TO exercises, simulacrum abuse is so Easy Button that it almost isn't worth doing. What boggles my mind is that they looked at simulacrum and said "you know what? let's make a full strength version that is obsessed with killing the original, and then leave out any kind of mechanical way to define that obsession."

*facepalm*

Yeah, no idea what they were thinking with Ice Assassin. Though, I suppose it is generally clear how it works, unlike what a half power creature is (clear enough for hit dice and levels, a lot less clear for racial or other innate abilities).

Simulacrum is definitely the easiest way to get extra spells. If you have a non-int-based class as a base, still and silent spell, you could even PAO them into a staff, clothes, or something. But PAO is pretty insane too.

On the other hand, there's a fair argument to be made that wands and staves are overpriced.

[Raven777]

It is if they can buff themselves, mayhap? (Which they definitely can, ergo they're broken*).


Part of the problem is that it seems they thought a wizard would simulacrum/IA other creatures, and that access to parts of other creatures would be hard to come by. Alas Aleax.

Corrected that for you :smalltongue:

*Raven does not personally endorse the notion that Simulacrums are in any way broken. Using simulacrums may cause headaches, heartburns, blackouts and insomnia. Shadow Walk to the closest Cleric if the symptoms persist.

[Drachasor]

It is if they can buff themselves, mayhap? (Which they definitely can, ergo they're broken*).

*Raven does not personally endorse the notion that Simulacrums are in any way broken. Using simulacrums may cause headaches, heartburns, blackouts and insomnia. Shadow Walk to the closest Cleric if the symptoms persist.

In all honesty I don't see how buffing matters at all. You don't generally want to use a Simulacrum in combat. Them buffing you is definitely more useful than them buffing themselves or you buffing them (except perhaps PAO).

My favorite idea for PAO and Simalcrum is turning a Cleric Sim with Divine Metamagic into an intestinal parasite. It amuses me.

[Phelix-Mu]

Yeah, no idea what they were thinking with Ice Assassin. Though, I suppose it is generally clear how it works, unlike what a half power creature is (clear enough for hit dice and levels, a lot less clear for racial or other innate abilities).

Indeed. Both are poorly written in different respects. One is ill-defined: simulacra stats are very hard to nail down, especially for copies of multiclassed characters.

On the other hand, IA is so thoughtlessly open-ended that the potential for abuse pretty much jumps off the page and smacks me in the face. The wizard can just copy himself. The copy may be obsessed with killing the original, but that is open to some extremely broad interpretation, and can probably be fixed by a variety of double-IAs, mindrape, programmed amnesia, or by simply letting it kill the original (as the spell makes no mention of what happens if the original is killed and then returns from the dead).

Now, instead of one level 17 wizard, there are two. Even if one is hard to heal, unable to advance, and cuckoo for cocoa puffs, THAT DOESN'T MAKE THAT KIND OF EFFECT BALANCED.

[Psyren]

Funny, you brought up that weird interpretation whilst arguing Simulacrum wasn't broken (in another thread). You were quite insistent that it wasn't. Now you are saying it is?

That's the thing about interpretations, yours may differ from someone else's. Mind-blowing, I know!

[Drachasor]

That's the thing about interpretations, yours may differ from someone else's. Mind-blowing, I know!

You seem to have missed my point about how you are contradicting yourself. Or have you changed your mind regarding Simulacrum?

[Psyren]

You seem to have missed my point about how you are contradicting yourself. Or have you changed your mind regarding Simulacrum?

I thought I was clear, but apparently not. Okay, here you go:

Using my interpretation of RAW (they cannot be buffed) Simulacrum is fine. Ice Assassin still needs tweaking to keep Vecna's toenails et al. out of a component pouch.

Using your interpretation (they can be), it is not fine.

Does that help?

[Phelix-Mu]

I thought I was clear, but apparently not. Okay, here you go:

Using my interpretation of RAW (they cannot be buffed) Simulacrum is fine. Ice Assassin still needs tweaking to keep Vecna's toenails et al. out of a component pouch.

Using your interpretation (they can be), it is not fine.

Does that help?

Hmm. So they are just selectively immune to spells that make them better? That seems a little wonky. But it does help balance them.

What about items that are based on buff spells? Can a simulacrum wear a periapt of wisdom? What about a skin of the proteus?

[eggynack]

I thought I was clear, but apparently not. Okay, here you go:

Using my interpretation of RAW (they cannot be buffed) Simulacrum is fine. Ice Assassin still needs tweaking to keep Vecna's toenails et al. out of a component pouch.

Using your interpretation (they can be), it is not fine.

Does that help?
Why would you necessarily want to buff them, or even have them buff themselves? It seems like you can get some pretty ridiculous effects out of simulacrum without ever touching that sort of thing.

[Drachasor]

I thought I was clear, but apparently not. Okay, here you go:

Using my interpretation of RAW (they cannot be buffed) Simulacrum is fine. Ice Assassin still needs tweaking to keep Vecna's toenails et al. out of a component pouch.

Using your interpretation (they can be), it is not fine.

Does that help?

Yeah. That just doesn't jive with saying "[Simulacrum] is broken enough already" since that indicates you consider it broken even with your interpretation. But I'll just chalk it up to you not expressing yourself very clearly.

I don't see any need to rehash how I think that's a pretty ridiculous interpretation, so I'll leave that alone.

That said, I don't see how disallowing buffs makes them all that weaker. As I said above, you really aren't going to be using them in a way that depends on buffs.

[Psyren]

Hmm. So they are just selectively immune to spells that make them better? That seems a little wonky. But it does help balance them.

What about items that are based on buff spells? Can a simulacrum wear a periapt of wisdom? What about a skin of the proteus?

By my reading - nothing at all. They cannot become more powerful. Whatever stats they have upon creation, that's how they stay until destroyed.

As for it being 'wonky,' they are merely illusions. Just the ability to have real/lasting effects at all is benefit enough.


Yeah. That just doesn't jive with saying "[Simulacrum] is broken enough already" since that indicates you consider it broken even with your interpretation. But I'll just chalk it up to you not expressing yourself very clearly.

I don't see any need to rehash how I think that's a pretty ridiculous interpretation, so I'll leave that alone.

That said, I don't see how disallowing buffs makes them all that weaker. As I said above, you really aren't going to be using them in a way that depends on buffs.

Sure thing.

[Drachasor]

By my reading - nothing at all. They cannot become more powerful. Whatever stats they have upon creation, that's how they stay until destroyed.

As for it being 'wonky,' they are merely illusions. Just the ability to have real/lasting effects at all is benefit enough.

Well, if we are going even by your RAW, they can certainly become WEAKER. So "buffs" such as polymorphing them into something with reduced stats or stats that are no more powerful should work.

And shadow magic does make stuff that's at least partly real (sometimes wholly real).

Just curious, can they use boots of flying? A carpet of flying? A staff of fire? A Belt of Battle?

[Psyren]

Well, if we are going even by your RAW, they can certainly become WEAKER. So "buffs" such as polymorphing them into something with reduced stats or stats that are no more powerful should work.

So long as the result is equal or less than the original then sure, that follows the entry.



And shadow magic does make stuff that's at least partly real (sometimes wholly real).

Partially real in this case.



Just curious, can they use boots of flying? A carpet of flying? A staff of fire? A Belt of Battle?

I'd say if an item grants them an ability (e.g. boots of flying) then no. If it simply acts upon them (carpet of flying) then yes.

Wait, didn't you say you didn't want to rehash this debate? Why are you asking me questions?

[Drachasor]

Wait, didn't you say you didn't want to rehash this debate? Why are you asking me questions?

And my questions were a debate, how?

Just asking for clarification on your position.

[eggynack]

Wait, didn't you say you didn't want to rehash this debate? Why are you asking me questions?
Presumably it's so that he can understand the mechanics of this odd interpretation fueled world, such that simulacrum can be accurately assessed within that world. Still though, I don't know if it's relevant. Simulacrum seems somewhat absurd no matter how you interpret that line.

[Psyren]

Presumably it's so that he can understand the mechanics of this odd interpretation fueled world, such that simulacrum can be accurately assessed within that world. Still though, I don't know if it's relevant. Simulacrum seems somewhat absurd no matter how you interpret that line.

It's the spell that is odd and interpretation-fueled really. I agree with your last sentence.


And my questions were a debate, how?

Just asking for clarification on your position.

Okay. Hopefully that's cleared up then.

[Drachasor]

Okay. Hopefully that's cleared up then.

Hmm, how about Enlarge Person and Reduce Person? Do they partly work, do they not work at all? What if they didn't increase any stats and just changed size? And how about Polymorphing someone into a monkey (assume physical stats are all lower)?

Is stuff that just gives a bonus on a roll, like True Strike, out?

[Psyren]

The simulacrum can't buff itself. Not sure how much clearer I can be than that really, and I certainly have no intention of staying up all night to answer every corner case you devise :smalltongue:

[Drachasor]

The simulacrum can't buff itself. Not sure how much clearer I can be than that really, and I certainly have no intention of staying up all night to answer every corner case you devise :smalltongue:

You've already said that's not entirely true. At least some buffs are ok, such as ones that don't increase stats or abilities -- so certainly some applications of Alter Self would seem to work just fine. Certainly size changing isn't strictly improving abilities -- it's a more lateral change.

And it would be a bit unclear if they literally CAN'T buff themselves, or if the aspects that give them new abilities just don't work. Certainly they seem to be legitimate targets for such spells, even if when they produce no effect.

But if you don't want to help illuminate me and explore your personal interpretation on Simulacrum then that's your call.

[Silentone98]

being an illusion, that functions thru the animation of magic... I don't see how it can be buffed, or use any magical equipment,... Maybe I can see it activating a wand or something....

where is the thread for the Simulacrum debate btw? im awfully curious how that went since after re-reading the spell, it doesn't do the things I thought it did.

[eggynack]

being an illusion, that functions thru the animation of magic... I don't see how it can be buffed, or use any magical equipment,... Maybe I can see it activating a wand or something....

Why would a shadow creature be particularly incapable of receiving buffs, apart from a line explicitly (or implicitly, though I tend towards the belief that they can receive buffs) stating that they can't do so? It's at least partially real, after all.

[Drachasor]

being an illusion, that functions thru the animation of magic... I don't see how it can be buffed, or use any magical equipment,... Maybe I can see it activating a wand or something....

where is the thread for the Simulacrum debate btw? im awfully curious how that went since after re-reading the spell, it doesn't do the things I thought it did.

Simulacrum makes a creature. Shadows Magic can make real and partly real stuff. Simulacrum is, in fact, more real than most shadow magic creations. That said, there's nothing that stops an entity created by Shadow Conjuration from being buffed or using magic items. They ARE creatures, even if odd ones.

Psyren's position on Simulacrum is based on an interpretation of one particular line in the spell text. It doesn't have anything to do with them being made by shadow magic per se. If an Evocation or Conjuration spell had that same line, he might well say the same thing.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

Could someone possibly make a version of someone who is already buffed?

[Drachasor]

Could someone possibly make a version of someone who is already buffed?

If it was an instantaneous spell, but I don't think others would count.

Remember though, the "you can't buff Simulacrums" is Psyren's interpretation of the text. Most people interpret it to mean it can't gain levels or experience (and that's probably the RAI as well), and possibly can't gain templates or the like either.

Even going with a stricter interpretation (which again, most don't do), it isn't clear that others can't buff Simulacrums. "A simulacrum has no ability to become more powerful. It cannot increase its level or abilities." is the exact text, which seems to leave open the possibility for others to buff it. If you go that route (which again, I emphasize, most do not).

[RoboEmperor]

Heh, this topic went off-topic.
For everyone who thinks simulacrum is not broken... unlike polymorph I do believe simulacrum gets the spell-like abilities of its mirror, therefore, you can get yourself a efreeti simulacrum army for crazy amount of wishes per day.

[Kafros]

Actually depends on your setting. If you were to place it on a setting like ravenloft then what results from casting the simulacrum is a construct. Constructs in Ravenloft are independed of their masters with a mind of their own, as such you could rule that any simulacrum cast in Ravenloft results to the creation of a dread construct that looks like the intended creature. (after all the setting rules specify that any attempt to create a construct results to the creation of a dread construct and simulacrum is such an attempt) Further more it will cause a power's check on the caster and have all the dread construct abilities... including the tendancy to kill its own master. You could look it up on the section of constructs in ravenloft for more info.

Now if you are the dm you can overule any rule as long as you are consistent regardless of the setting as long as the story is promoted. If you do that keep in mind that players might start abusing the simulacrum. Changing a rule is alright as long as it changes for everyone involved. Having a different set of rules for yourself and another for the players is a problem though. If you are participating as a player in that campaign... ask your dm on that and explain your reasons for asking that in a way that will promote the story and make the game more fun for everyone and not just for yourself.

[Drachasor]

Heh, this topic went off-topic.
For everyone who thinks simulacrum is not broken... unlike polymorph I do believe simulacrum gets the spell-like abilities of its mirror, therefore, you can get yourself a efreeti simulacrum army for crazy amount of wishes per day.

It depends on your interpretation...

it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).

Spell-like abilities are a subset of Special Abilities. So Simulacrum CAN get them.

Efreeti normally have like 10 HD. Do 5HD Efreeti have Wish? This isn't defined. However, if you get a Simulacrum of a 20HD Efreeti, then it will have 10HD. This Efreeti Simulacrum should have the Wish Spell-like. Finding a 20HD Efreeti is the real trick here.

Now, if you just make a copy of yourself and fellow adventurers and other same CR or less creatures, then I think the spell is a lot more balanced. (Note, I say CR here, not HD). Though, it is quite cheap for what it does though (compare to Craft Construct).

Really there are a number of legacy spells like Simulacrum that should have undergone a major renovation when taken in 3.5. For Simulacrum, it probably shouldn't be a spell -- unless you are going to give it a non-instant duration. It should be something more like a Craft feat or the like, imho. That or they should have separated out normal spells and rituals (like 4E did).*

*This is not a flat endorsement of 4E. I just think there are some things they did that were good.


Actually depends on your setting. If you were to place it on a setting like ravenloft then what results from casting the simulacrum is a construct.

Does Ravenloft really have special rules for the Simulacrum spell to make the result a construct? Normally it isn't unless you are making a Simulacrum of a Construct. Sims retain the type of the original.

[Kafros]

? how did you come to the conclussion that its not a construct? it specifically does not mention that its a creature of the same type as the target but it mentions that it is: partially real made of ice and snow, it also follows the construct rules for cost. Also the wording is that it looks like the target creature (but is not the same type as it) therefor an ice/snow construct. when viewed with a true seeing spell a simulacrum is a snowman moving around sculptured to the intended form. Though it does not gain the construct qualities you do not create another life with that illussion but an animated object.
Interestingly enough while there is a spellist with all the core spells modified in ravenloft simulacrum was ommited, (spells that work normally are also mentioned saying this spell works as intended :P) so I guess they forgot about the spell altogether. Frankly since it is ambiguous its up to the dm of the campaign. If it works for you use it. But all illussions in ravenloft are 20% stronger anyway, so in that setting a simulacrum would also have 70% hd of the target creature.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

It is an illusion spell, of the shadow subschool, so it probably is an illusion

[Kafros]

actually if moving to ravenloft is inconvinient for you just place it in a pocket plane where illussionary creatures can live normal lives. Though it would be hard pressed for a player to level up his simulacrum in a pocket plane that is empty without a vilian a vilian making his siimulacrums there can make an army and be done with it. But do make sure that the players can find that info about the nature of the pocket plane before entering it.
Also you could make other fun pocket planes where all illussions create real effects. (do notice though that illussions are going be rediculously powerfull on that plane... eg a pestidigitation can make normal fireballs or worse).
In either case is a form of cheating since you are creating an area that is exploitable by the vilians but not available to the players. I would only use tricks like that to make a funny adventure, where the players are completely safe and not in risk of dying so they can enjoy the brake from the normal rules by trying something different. That is the whole idea behind pocket planes anyway. If it does not make for a nice story dont bother with it to begin with.

[Phelix-Mu]

After numerous discussions, simulacrum seems to copy everything about a given creature other than

- ability to gain HD/levels (part of this discussion often involves what an inability to learn implies...gets murky fast)

- HD/levels of the original are cut in half (with no guideline about how to do this for creatures with HD from multiple sources)

- ability to heal naturally

- ability to disobey creator

Everything else about the "quasi-real" copy is as per the original (with no given definition for quasi-real, IIRC). There is no change in type because the only ways in which the creature isn't an exact copy are pointed out in the spell.

I agree that Construct type makes sense. Sadly, the RAW is not big on "makes sense," and few places more than in some of the more borked spells in the PHB (don't get me going on the issues with gate).

[Psyren]

But if you don't want to help illuminate me and explore your personal interpretation on Simulacrum then that's your call.

There's nothing to "explore" - I've given you my interpretation.


Heh, this topic went off-topic.
For everyone who thinks simulacrum is not broken... unlike polymorph I do believe simulacrum gets the spell-like abilities of its mirror, therefore, you can get yourself a efreeti simulacrum army for crazy amount of wishes per day.

You get the abilities of a half-HD version of the creature. Can a half-strength efreet still grant wishes? This is really left up to the DM to decide. Personally I would say no, but others might be fine with it.

[Phelix-Mu]

It does get silly. Simulacrum a simulacrum a simulacrum a simulacrum of an efreeti, and now you have a pocket efreeti.

OMG. Needwant collection of 1HD great wyrms!

[Segev]

I have personally found Formian Queens to be excellent things to make Simulacra of. Polymorph them into something Small or smaller and carry them with you as faux familiars. Their effective sorcerer levels are not tied to their HD, so the half-power thing doesn't stop you from having a pocket sorceress.

[CSeiberlin]

For everyone who thinks simulacrum is not broken... unlike polymorph I do believe simulacrum gets the spell-like abilities of its mirror, therefore, you can get yourself a efreeti simulacrum army for crazy amount of wishes per day.

Heh... I was probably remembering something from earlier editions but I thought only noble efreeti could grant wishes (and the qualifying way to distinguish noble from common efreet their number of HD). It's never come up in my games since the only opportunity my players have had to snag a genie wish has been via genie nobles. Still, never noticed commoner efreeti can grant wishes.

Well as a (probably unnecessary) word of warning, rpgs are cooperative games... not just between you and the other players but also with the DM. The old saw, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should applies. A wish'o'matic army will most likely end a campaign unless somehow it is within the scope of the DM's campaigning style... in other words the game is still offers some challenge and is fun.

On the flip side, anything the players can do the DM can do in spades. You control your individual PCs, he controls everything else. This is something that should cause a bit of an escalation signalling to the DM that the players want to play with Ultimate Power (tm) and the consequences thereof.:smalleek:

In Pathfinder, abusing wishes (too many wishes or effects outside the standard parameters or anything else in DM's judgement) can cause damage to reality called a Wishwarp. An article about the effects of wishwarp are in the 6th book of the Legacy of Fire AP. A DM would be well within scope to have a wishwarp manifest (which can manifest as a wild magic zone) and center not just on a locale but on a person or a thing.

Or the number of wishes could attract attention of beings the PCs may not either be prepared for or well beyond their capability (probably both). For instance they could be summoned to the Court of the Grand Sultan of the Efreet in the City of Brass for judgement\wish audit\punishment. Basically abusing wishes gives the DM carte blanche to screw with the PCs even if granted by perfectly loyal simulacrums.

If the DM is on his game he should be able to figure out logical reaction and consequences to player actions even if you use critters with more modest SLAs for their simulacrum templates. Or depending on your group's playstyle, the setting may not be too reactive. So long as everyone's having fun there is no wrong way to play this game but I am interested to hear about your campaign beyond the small glimpses you add to your threads both out of curiosity and to cipher out what sort of advice you're looking for.

[Drachasor]

There's nothing to "explore" - I've given you my interpretation.

Yes, because rules/interpretations never have unexpected implications to discover. Whatever. :smallsigh:


You get the abilities of a half-HD version of the creature. Can a half-strength efreet still grant wishes? This is really left up to the DM to decide. Personally I would say no, but others might be fine with it.

Efreeti can have more than 10HD though. So a Half-Power 20+HD Efreeti should have no trouble with Wish. Finding one is the tricky part.


? how did you come to the conclussion that its not a construct? it specifically does not mention that its a creature of the same type as the target but it mentions that it is: partially real made of ice and snow, it also follows the construct rules for cost. Also the wording is that it looks like the target creature (but is not the same type as it) therefor an ice/snow construct. when viewed with a true seeing spell a simulacrum is a snowman moving around sculptured to the intended form. Though it does not gain the construct qualities you do not create another life with that illussion but an animated object.

Simulacrum is not a Construct. It makes a duplicate of the creature including the appropriate abilities for that creature (of reduced power). That does include type, because type comes with a lot of ability baggage.

There are no general "construct rules for cost" and Simulacrum certainly doesn't follow any existing rules for building any sort of construct. Nor does the spell say the Simulacrum has ANY of the qualities of a construct.

Looking like you are made of ice or snow doesn't mean anything. Might as well claim it is an elemental for all the support the text gives (e.g. none). If it doesn't say the type changes, then a partially real duplicate of the creature with half-power abilities has the same type.

Similarly, Shadow Conjuration used for summoning or the like will make partially real illusions of creatures and they retain their type.


It does get silly. Simulacrum a simulacrum a simulacrum a simulacrum of an efreeti, and now you have a pocket efreeti.

OMG. Needwant collection of 1HD great wyrms!

Well, it doesn't change the size, so you'll have a wee bit of a problem there. Though a 1HD Great Wyrm would be hilariously fragile.

[Brookshw]

OMG. Needwant collection of 1HD great wyrms!

oh that deserves not just blue but Royal Blue! Gotta catch em all! Also get pygmy elephants and make them fight for my amusement. Well, not mine, but a simulcrum of me obviously. Love it! :smallbiggrin:

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, it doesn't change the size, so you'll have a wee bit of a problem there. Though a 1HD Great Wyrm would be hilariously fragile.


oh that deserves not just blue but Royal Blue! Gotta catch em all! Also get pygmy elephants and make them fight for my amusement. Well, not mine, but a simulcrum of me obviously. Love it! :smallbiggrin:

Simulacrum of a ice assassin of a permanent animated object (corpse of a wyrmling dragon) true mind switched with a great wyrm via greater humanoid essence!

Whee!:smallbiggrin:

Really, this way madness lies.

[Psyren]

Yes, because rules/interpretations never have unexpected implications to discover. Whatever. :smallsigh:

All of them can be handled easily by someone who is not actively trying to break the game.

As a rule of thumb - for any particular corner case/scenario, go with the solution that is less powerful/more conservative for the caster. The spell will still be good.



Efreeti can have more than 10HD though. So a Half-Power 20+HD Efreeti should have no trouble with Wish. Finding one is the tricky part.

Well, obviously customized/homebrew monsters are going to have unforeseen effects on balance and should be used with caution. I didn't think that needed to be said?

[Drachasor]

All of them can be handled easily by someone who is not actively trying to break the game.

Putting your head in the sand and acting like problems don't exist unless someone is trying to make problems is...silly.


Well, obviously customized/homebrew monsters are going to have unforeseen effects on balance and should be used with caution. I didn't think that needed to be said?

Monsters DO have advancement charts. And it isn't like there's any problem with such creatures EXCEPT where Simulacrum is concerned.

But yeah, sure, blame the DM.


Simulacrum of a ice assassin of a permanent animated object (corpse of a wyrmling dragon) true mind switched with a great wyrm via greater humanoid essence!

Whee!:smallbiggrin:

Really, this way madness lies.

Simulacrum and PAO have a lot of interesting possibilities. In large part because they are both poorly written and constrained spells.

Intestinal Parasite Clerics, for instance.

[Psyren]

Monsters DO have advancement charts.

The only efreet entry I see in the Bestiary has 10 HD.

I'm not blaming anyone; I get the feeling you're taking this a bit personally.

[Phelix-Mu]

Simmer, class, simmer.

The main problem I see is that, even at a minimalist usage, the simulacrum is a pretty effective tool. Perfectly obedient, skilled, fairly disposable, permanent duration. Get a squad of 1/2 level wizards together and some real problems begin to emerge without even really trying. Keep them for out-of-combat stuff (crafting, buffing, research) and you avoid their main weakness (clunky healing mechanic).

Ofc, any DM that allows crazy efreeti simulacra shenanigans deserves what they get.

[Drachasor]

The only efreet entry I see in the Bestiary has 10 HD.

I'm not blaming anyone; I get the feeling you're taking this a bit personally.

This isn't a PF thread, so why are you looking in the Bestiary?

3.5 does have HD advancement indicated.

Don't worry, I'm not taking this personally. Your Simulacrum position is just rather funny, especially given you don't seem willing to even explore the implications of it for the sake of curiosity.

[eggynack]

The only efreet entry I see in the Bestiary has 10 HD.

They're explicitly listed as being capable of hitting 11-15 HD (large), or even 16-30 HD (huge). Such is the nature of advancing monster HD.

[Phelix-Mu]

They're explicitly listed as being capable of hitting 11-15 HD (large), or even 16-30 HD (huge). Such is the nature of advancing monster HD.

But advanced monsters exist via DM fiat, and are thus unsuitable for TO discussions. Ofc, any creature exists via DM fiat, but generally MM entries are considered available, especially ones that already interact with all manner of spells and items for summoning/calling.

But this is all very academic. The spell is terribly written, and any sane DM should speak up before ambitious players start reading lots of exploits into the spell (cause there is room for plenty).

[Psyren]

This isn't a PF thread, so why are you looking in the Bestiary?

Technically the system isn't specified - in fact, the thread you were quoting me from (where I said the spell was fine) was specifically discussing the PF version, so if you're actually talking 3.5 then you actually haven't been talking about my position this entire time.

[Phelix-Mu]

Technically the system isn't specified - in fact, the thread you were quoting me from (where I said the spell was fine) was specifically discussing the PF version, so if you're actually talking 3.5 then you actually haven't been talking about my position this entire time.

Hmm, does the PF version differ substantially?

[Psyren]

Hmm, does the PF version differ substantially?

The spell, no - but monsters in PF don't have specified advancement entries, making doing so even more of a fiat exercise.

[Drachasor]

But advanced monsters exist via DM fiat, and are thus unsuitable for TO discussions. Ofc, any creature exists via DM fiat, but generally MM entries are considered available, especially ones that already interact with all manner of spells and items for summoning/calling.

Well, I didn't think we were having a TO discussion (whether 10HD Efreeti have Wishes in that context is unclear). I was just saying a powerful enough Efreeti would very clearly give you wishes as a Simulacrum with no ifs, ands, or buts.


But this is all very academic. The spell is terribly written, and any sane DM should speak up before ambitious players start reading lots of exploits into the spell (cause there is room for plenty).

Yes. It has a lot of problems and is very powerful without any real effort put into it. PF is just as bad or worse in this (since we touched on it) -- you don't even need part of the creature you want to copy. Yup, they got rid of the material component.


Technically the system isn't specified - in fact, the thread you were quoting me from (where I said the spell was fine) was specifically discussing the PF version, so if you're actually talking 3.5 then you actually haven't been talking about my position this entire time.

Mentioning something you said isn't quoting you. Regardless, I don't see how you can say that Simulacrum is not a problem in PF (where it has no components), but is a problem in 3.5. Is that what you are saying?

In any case, the Efreeti thing didn't come up in that context, but I suppose it could be confusing.

[Brookshw]

Well, it doesn't change the size, so you'll have a wee bit of a problem there. Though a 1HD Great Wyrm would be hilariously fragile.

Please tell me that pun's intentional

[Psyren]

Yes. It has a lot of problems and is very powerful without any real effort put into it. PF is just as bad or worse in this (since we touched on it) -- you don't even need part of the creature you want to copy.

You don't need that in 3.5 either using the standard component pouch shenanigans. At least the PF version depends on an expensive material component, which the DM has absolute control over whether you can acquire.

[Drachasor]

You don't need that in 3.5 either using the standard component pouch shenanigans. At least the PF version depends on an expensive material component, which the DM has absolute control over whether you can acquire.

Err...what? PF just requires powdered rubies as a component. And just 500gp per hit die (no XP unlike 3.5). How exactly is that expensive at 13th level? And I don't see how it is all that hard to obtain either -- unless the DM isn't thinking clearly and trying to balance a spell by artificially constraining a resource that shouldn't be hard to get.

But yeah, the DM saying that you can't get powdered rubies (which stops the 3.5 version too) makes so much more sense than saying you can't do it because you don't have part of the person. And certainly the DM should let you get anything out of your component pouch if there's no price tag, from neutronium to anti-matter to pieces of random people.


Please tell me that pun's intentional

All puns are intentional.

[Silentone98]

Simmer, class, simmer.

The main problem I see is that, even at a minimalist usage, the simulacrum is a pretty effective tool. Perfectly obedient, skilled, fairly disposable, permanent duration. Get a squad of 1/2 level wizards together and some real problems begin to emerge without even really trying. Keep them for out-of-combat stuff (crafting, buffing, research) and you avoid their main weakness (clunky healing mechanic).

Ofc, any DM that allows crazy efreeti simulacra shenanigans deserves what they get.


1/2 wizards? as in you duplicated yourself or some other wizard? This is how I used to think the spell functioned, but after re-reading yesterday, im not so sure.
Correct me if im wrong please, would rather play with the correct version of this.

It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).

This reads to me as racial levels currently. But I can see how it can be taken as class levels to.
It's gotten me rather confused since running into this thread... lol
Cause now im imagining a level 20 wizard duplicating himself and instead of getting a lvl 10 wizard, gets a lvl 10 human(or whatever race)

would it be terribly bad interpreting this either way? by lvl 20, im not sure having a lvl 10 clone of yourself with the spells is breaking?
Although, having it copy to such an extent would annoy me as a DM,.. as I have had parties visit my main villain/end game boss's lairs at times while still at very low levels. If anyone grabs anything of his... well you see where this could lead, lol

but using it for infinite wishes, said player would be smacked silly.. AFTER he's invaded by an angry efreeti swarm, create on the spot, just for him. lol

[Drachasor]

This reads to me as racial levels currently. But I can see how it can be taken as class levels to.
It's gotten me rather confused since running into this thread... lol
Cause now im imagining a level 20 wizard duplicating himself and instead of getting a lvl 10 wizard, gets a lvl 10 human(or whatever race)

would it be terribly bad interpreting this either way? by lvl 20, im not sure having a lvl 10 clone of yourself with the spells is breaking?
Although, having it copy to such an extent would annoy me as a DM,.. as I have had parties visit my main villain/end game boss's lairs at times while still at very low levels. If anyone grabs anything of his... well you see where this could lead, lol


Yeah, you'd be wrong to look at it that way. "Racial Levels" don't exist. (Well, ok, there are 3-level racial PrC-like classes in some book, I don't recall which one, but that's beside the point). "Racial Hit Dice" are a completely separate thing from Class Levels, and "levels" are only ever used with the latter. So yeah, a Simulacrum of a 20th level Wizard is going to be a level 10 version of that Wizard (roughly speaking).

[Phelix-Mu]

The "real" is the human wizard 20. The copy gets 10 of his levels, and, yes, they are wizard levels (because the spell gives us no reason to think they would be otherwise).

The real problem isn't at 20th. The problem is at 13th. The wizard copies himself and gets a 6th level wizard. That's 3rd level spells, a decent array of skills (9 ranks in anything the original keeps at max), and enough levels to have any of the more useful crafting feats (Wondrous Item, Wand, Potion, etc). Action economy out-of-combat just explodes, and an ambitious wizard can do better than just copying himself. Copy the cleric, the druid, the mayor. There are a ton of uses.

And that's just the basic use of the spell. In TO stuff, IA and simulacrum allow the kind of things that really defy belief. No DM would ever suffer them, of course, but still, they are impressive.

[Psyren]

But yeah, the DM saying that you can't get powdered rubies (which stops the 3.5 version too) makes so much more sense than saying you can't do it because you don't have part of the person. And certainly the DM should let you get anything out of your component pouch if there's no price tag, from neutronium to anti-matter to pieces of random people.

Hey, don't blame me, this is the entire premise behind nearly every use of Ice Assassin on this forum after all :smalltongue:

And while the DM is recommended to keep you at specific WBL benchmarks throughout your career, nowhere is he obligated to give you specific treasure. Though I will agree with you, that applies to 3.5 as well.

[Drachasor]

Hey, don't blame me, this is the entire premise behind nearly every use of Ice Assassin on this forum after all :smalltongue:

And while the DM is recommended to keep you at specific WBL benchmarks throughout your career, nowhere is he obligated to give you specific treasure. Though I will agree with you, that applies to 3.5 as well.

Any decent-sized city is going to have the material components you need for Simulacrum. They are extremely inexpensive compared to anything else you are likely to buy at that level.

If a DM doesn't want you using it, the responsible thing is to just ban it. Playing games with material components is childish.

[eggynack]

Playing games with material components is childish.
Hmph. I don't think that playing Dungeons and Dragons is childish. Double-hmph.

[Drachasor]

Hmph. I don't think that playing Dungeons and Dragons is childish. Double-hmph.

If you're not mature enough to be a child, then you're not mature enough to be an adult.

You're just some sort of misshapen...thing.

[Phelix-Mu]

If you're not mature enough to be a child, then you're not mature enough to be an adult.

You're just some sort of misshapen...thing.

Whoa. What did the children do to deserve that bit of slander?

[Psyren]

Any decent-sized city is going to have the material components you need for Simulacrum. They are extremely inexpensive compared to anything else you are likely to buy at that level.

Maybe. Some cities deal in gold, or paintings, or exotic perfumes.



If a DM doesn't want you using it, the responsible thing is to just ban it. Playing games with material components is childish.

So is wish-looping, but hey :smalltongue: