worst PF archetype?

[roko10]

So, what is the worst PF archetype you've ever seen?

I think it is this one:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/unarmed-fighter

[Kudaku]

Unarmed fighter's actually pretty good as a dip archetype since it gives you early access to style feats. I've also seen some fairly hairy unarmed builds incorporating Unarmed Fighter.

I'd have to nominate one of the bard archetypes... Daredevil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/daredevil) is pretty horrible.

[Der_DWSage]

I dunno, Daredevil seems to have its niche as an acrobatics master. And rolling twice on any skill check a few times a day is always appreciated.

I'd like to nominate the Trapper Ranger, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/trapper) as I have yet to find a legitimate use for its traps. Some of them even sound nice until you read them closely. (Spell-stealing trap? Sign me up-wait, what do you mean the enemy caster chooses what spells are lost? And it scales HORRIBLY? Well then. Rusting trap! Wait...1d4 damage to equipment? So not even enough to destroy a dagger? Um. Pit trap! Can't go wrong with a pit tra-it doesn't even deal damage until 4th level, and even then it's only a 10-foot pit? I...poison trap, I guess? What do you mean the DC is likely to be lower unless I pump Wisdom? I gave up spellcasting for THIS?)

Though as a close runner-up, how about a Wizard Archetype based on using scrolls as weapons and shields, and then forgets to give the Wizard proficiency with either of those? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/scrollmaster) (It's 10th level ability is legit enough to make up for that oversight, however. Cast from scrolls as if they were your caster level and with your save DCs? I'd suffer through it for that.)

[roko10]

Wizard Archetype based on using scrolls as weapons and shields? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/scrollmaster)



Holy ****, that sounds awesome! I got to play one.

[Psyren]

Celebrity and Geisha were always head-scratchers for me.

Feral Child druid trades wild shape for trap sense.

[MobiusHero]

Tranquil Guardian (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-aasimar/tranquil-guardian) Is my nomination, you lose a decent bit of combat effectiveness in exchange for being not equally as good at making people play nice...

[Ravens_cry]

Holy Gun. Hey, let's make Paladins MAD again while taking away the things that makes them awesome.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Though as a close runner-up, how about a Wizard Archetype based on using scrolls as weapons and shields, and then forgets to give the Wizard proficiency with either of those? (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/scrollmaster)

Um, I'm not a Pathfinder player, so forgive me if I've missed something, but in the first paragraph of Scroll Blade:


The scrollmaster is proficient in this weapon,

And in Scroll Shield:


The scrollmaster is considered proficient in this shield.

Both are the second to last sentence of the first paragraph.

[Psyren]

I don't mind Tranquil Guardian. Pacifist (or at least nonviolent) paladins can't be easy to play and this helps somewhat.

Holy Gun is no more MAD than any other paladin. You need Dex and Cha, that's really it. You can even get away with less Con than normal since you won't be on the front lines.

[Snowbluff]

Celebrity and Geisha were always head-scratchers for me.

Geisha is like a tea party to get your inspire courage benefits, right? Ugh.

I dislike spellslinger. A ton of lost schools, for the ability to misfire and overload when casting a few spells. It's too bad the concept is such a cool one for me. DSP's Path of War offers and alternative with their gish PrC that functions properly. Even Arcane Archer is far superior.

[Psyren]

A 10-minute tea party no less.

I agree spellslinger is disappointing. Don't forget though that PF wizards don't actually "lose" schools the way 3.5 ones do.

[Snowbluff]

A 10-minute tea party no less.

I agree spellslinger is disappointing. Don't forget though that PF wizards don't actually "lose" schools the way 3.5 ones do.

Who has time for that?!

Anyway, about the spellsinger. I know it's not a complete loss, but it limits the number of spells you can use on a practical basis. I stuck with conjuration and transmutation for the gun-related spells, which are pretty cool, even if I think they represent fixes to awful mechanics. I think I ditched illusions and necromancy, I think. The plan was to use simulacrum and create undead spells at higher levels. Since they were spells for when you have days off, I figured using extra spell slots for them wasn't that bad. I wasn't the only caster (for a change) so being awful at being a wizard was fine.

I also took Craft Wondrous and Craft Arms as my feats, to save some money for upgrading my rifle and other items.

[NightbringerGGZ]

Worst archetype that a PC might use or just in general? Some of the archetypes are pretty useless to PCs but could be rather fun on NPCs or enemies. Take Siege Mage for instance.

[Der_DWSage]

*Quite deftly proving me wrong about the Papermaster Wizard*

...Huh. Well then. That'll teach me to go archetype-binging at 5 in the morning.

I maintain my position on the Trapper Ranger, though.

[Psyren]

Worst archetype that a PC might use or just in general? Some of the archetypes are pretty useless to PCs but could be rather fun on NPCs or enemies. Take Siege Mage for instance.

I always think from a PC perspective. I definitely agree that some of these are designed for NPCs (Celebrity again comes to mind, particularly for a cohort.)



I maintain my position on the Trapper Ranger, though.

A handful of the traps can be pretty nasty, like the Quicksand trap (whose DC scales like your other traps, rather than being fixed like normal quicksand), Sleet Trap (blocks LoS for 1 round followed by slippery ice on the floor) and the Supernatural Poison trap, which has no saving throw as written.

I had to do a rundown on all the traps as part of my Occultist guide, thanks to Demos Kalagos.

[papr_weezl8472]

Not necessarily the worst archetype out there, but I like how the First Worlder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/first-worlder) Summoner is just straightforwardly worse than the standard Summoner in every way. It's not trading away class features for entirely different (though much worse) class features, like some terrible archetypes, which at least might make you better than the standard class at some small niche thing you don't want to be better at anyway. It's just a straight downgrade.

[Psyren]

Not necessarily the worst archetype out there, but I like how the First Worlder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/first-worlder) Summoner is just straightforwardly worse than the standard Summoner in every way. It's not trading away class features for entirely different (though much worse) class features, like some terrible archetypes, which at least might make you better than the standard class at some small niche thing you don't want to be better at anyway. It's just a straight downgrade.

Disagree here too - First Worlders get some really nice summons. A Pugwampi's aura can utterly screw over enemy units with no-save AoE Misfortune. Vexgits are useful if you have no trapmonkey. Unicorns can heal, neutralize poison and Greater Teleport the party at 7th level through forest environments. The eidolon is weaker, but by the same token, there are more effects out there designed to screw over outsiders than fey.

[Larsen]

Unicorns can heal, neutralize poison and Greater Teleport the party at 7th level through forest environments.

I think summoned creatures can't use teleport...

[Gemini476]

Has it been changed, or is the Vow of Poverty Monk still completely and utterly awful (as well as just strange, given the one überpimped-out item?)

[Venger]

mysterious stranger gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/mysterious-stranger) takes a class that already suffers from a number of serious problems and makes them pretty much all worse by roping CHA into the equation, making them even more MAD then they already were.

[Psyren]

I think summoned creatures can't use teleport...

Scratch that one off the "unicorns are cool" list then.


mysterious stranger gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/mysterious-stranger) takes a class that already suffers from a number of serious problems and makes them pretty much all worse by roping CHA into the equation, making them even more MAD then they already were.

Actually it just makes them use Cha instead of Wis, so they're no more MAD than before. And of course it goes extremely well with Cha-based classes like Ninja.

[Snowbluff]

Has it been changed, or is the Vow of Poverty Monk still completely and utterly awful (as well as just strange, given the one überpimped-out item?)
Yeah, that's definitely something that a lot of people complained about. Suddenly, VoP was way worse and monk-specific. I never really cared, since I don't like monk.

Scratch that one off the "unicorns are cool" list then.

Somewhere, Twilight Sparkle is crying. :smalltongue:

[NightbringerGGZ]

mysterious stranger gunslinger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/mysterious-stranger) takes a class that already suffers from a number of serious problems and makes them pretty much all worse by roping CHA into the equation, making them even more MAD then they already were.

Gunslinger isn't a MAD class at all. You need Dex and Wisdom. Maybe Con if you want to fight with short-range guns. The Mysterious Stranger uses Cha instead of Wis and the recent Eratta lets them gain Dex to Damage (though at a delayed level). It still isn't an optimal archetype, but it isn't one of the worst.

How about the Siege Mage archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/siege-mage)? It's like a Spellslinger but without any mobility.

[Psyren]

That always struck me as more of an NPC archetype. The party is defending a city and there's a dangerous robed figure off in the distance lobbing enchanted boulders at the wall, so they need to go assassinate the guy before he creates a breach.

[NightbringerGGZ]

That always struck me as more of an NPC archetype. The party is defending a city and there's a dangerous robed figure off in the distance lobbing enchanted boulders at the wall, so they need to go assassinate the guy before he creates a breach.

I've seen a discussion where somebody was trying to figure out the cheapest way to craft a magical item that would let you move a Siege Engine around. The idea was to combo that item with a Siege Mage and just float around like you had a hover tank.

But ya, it probably is intended for NPC usage more than PC usage.

Actually, I know which archetypes I dislike the most. All the ones for pet classes that give you multiple critters. Broodmaster, Beastmaster, Houndmaster, Packlord and so on. They can be very powerful in an E6/E8 style game but become traps at higher levels.

[Nihilarian]

Not necessarily the worst archetype out there, but I like how the First Worlder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/first-worlder) Summoner is just straightforwardly worse than the standard Summoner in every way. It's not trading away class features for entirely different (though much worse) class features, like some terrible archetypes, which at least might make you better than the standard class at some small niche thing you don't want to be better at anyway. It's just a straight downgrade.The first worlder has exactly one thing going for it. It gains the ability to cast Summon Nature's Ally (with an expanded list) and doesn't lose the ability to cast Summon Monster. Make your Eidolon a mount/skillmonkey/pseudocaster, never summon it except with Summon Eidolon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-eidolon), and you can start to look halfway competent as you flood the field with various summoned creatures.

it's not optimized, but it's not really the worst.

The worst (for a PC) are the squire archetypes. Universally terrible except maybe for a cohort.

[Drachasor]

Holy ****, that sounds awesome! I got to play one.

The problem with the Scroll Master is that your Scrolls take damage automatically, they are easy to sunder, and they cannot be repaired. So you have to replace them. You also have a horrible BAB unless you go EK or use other PrCs.

You are also limited to using them as +4 Equivalent Weapons (yeah, you can't even go to +5).

And it actually replaces something much more useful -- your Arcane Bond.

Overall it is bad, but there are much worse Wizard Archetypes (since most of them are awful).

I agree that it is an awesome idea though. Too bad they screwed it up.

[Psyren]

The scrolls are usable right up until they are destroyed though, so if your scrollblade is about to rip that is the time to cast whatever is on it.

[Drachasor]

The scrolls are usable right up until they are destroyed though, so if your scrollblade is about to rip that is the time to cast whatever is on it.

Each hit does 1 damage to the scroll. 9th level spells only have 9 hit points. So if you go EK and have 4 attacks per round, then it MAAAYBE lasts you one combat.

Having to spend 2-3k per combat is rather ridiculous.

Since HP = Highest Spell Level, the situation isn't good at lower levels either.

And again, hugely vulnerable to Sunder since they have 0 Hardness.

[Psyren]

Oh I agree, they're dangerous to use. Just pointing out that no matter how much damage they take, they are just as powerful as if they were freshly scribed.

[mucat]

I'd have to nominate one of the bard archetypes... Daredevil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/daredevil) is pretty horrible.
I don't see anything wrong with Daredevil. It's more an NPC archetype than a PC one, but a fight against a troupe of these -- especially if you're up against a time limit, and they're harassing and delaying you -- could be a hell of a scene.

[Barstro]

The scrolls are usable right up until they are destroyed though

Hope the PC crafted them, otherwise some other character might have used a few "charges" and it will be destroyed prematurely.

This, again, seems like NPC (with high level, quick scribing, minions) material. Too expensive and worthless at low levels for a PC.

[Hunter Noventa]

I'll go ahead and toss the Soul Forger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/soul-forger) into the ring. At first glance it seems like it might be kind of neat. You create a specific weapon to use as a Magus and get bonuses for using it right?

Well you lose out on a LOT. First you lose 1 spell per day per level. That doesn't even get anything in exchange, that's your cost of entry to the archetype. Then you get an Arcane Bond with your weapon, kind of expected, though it's generally agreed upon that Arcane Bond is a subpar ability compared to a familiar for a wizard. The bonded item ability to cast a single spell per day even if not prepared really doesn't make up for long one spell of every level, and the Bonded item can be a liability.

Further versatility is lost by trading the ability to get access to magus spells not in your spellbook for a day, in exhcnage for crafting bonuses.

Then you lose spell recall and improved spell recall. Generally considered the best vanilla Magus abilities. What do you get? You make your Bonded Item stronger. Not actually more powerful no, you can add to it's hardness and repair magic items. Not worth it.

Oh and at 19th level, instead of getting access to more spells, you can repair items faster.

What were they smoking?

[grarrrg]

Nominations:
Superstitious (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/superstitious) Barbarian. First off, the designer either has no idea what "superstitious" actually means, or he is horrible at spelling, as NONE of the class abilities reflect being superstitious at all. Suspicious seems a much better fit. Next, the Initiative and AC bonuses only apply during the Surprise Round, and that's only _if_ you are allowed to act in the Surprise round.

Ragechemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/ragechemist) Alchemist. It is really not very good. You get fairly minor bonuses, at the risk of taking fairly harsh penalties any round you take damage. As you progress the penalties get MUCH harsher MUCH faster, and you gain some other piddly little bonuses to 'make up' for it.



I'll go ahead and toss the Soul Forger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/soul-forger)...
Well you lose out on a LOT. First you lose 1 spell per day per level. That doesn't even get anything in exchange, that's your cost of entry to the archetype. Then you get an Arcane Bond with your weapon, kind of expected

Archetypes are balanced on the WHOLE, not on a "piecemeal" scale. The fact that they almost always write things out as piecemeal is just stupid.

Also, you lose 1 spell per level with "nothing gained", while simultaneously gaining an Arcane Bond item while "losing nothing". Huh. How bout that.


For a Crafter, it is pretty solid, getting sizable bonuses to Crafting (quicker/more likely to succeed).
Yes, it's on the "weaker" side of archetypes, but can still make a very solid support type character, and is far from "worst ever".

[mucat]

Archetypes are balanced on the WHOLE, not on a "piecemeal" scale. The fact that they almost always write things out as piecemeal is just stupid.
Though they really ought to give more thought to how the archetype features kick in over levels. Some of them are decidedly weak in some level ranges, strong in others.

I'm playing a Clone Master Alchemist in one campaign, and the archetype is designed with no thought for early-level play. You get reduced bomb damage immediately, from Level 1 onward, but the archetype offers literally no benefits until level 7.

(At which point things just get needlessly complicated. There is already a line of Alchemical Simulacrum discoveries...but instead of giving the discoveries for free, the archetype instead gives you the Simulacrum spell line, which does pretty much the exact same thing. Except that you still need to take the Alchemical Simulacrum discoveries, if you want the later discoveries that use them as prerequisites...)

All in all, an archetype that really could have benefited from playtesting, or just from five minutes' thought before putting it to print.


All that said, I still don't regret taking the archetype. It serves its real purpose, which is to mark my Mad Doctor as an expert in cloning, and make it just barely plausible that his central obsession might succeed.

"SHE'LL LIVE AGAIN! Oh, yeah, and my bombs do d4 instead of d6. Y'know, I'll take that trade."

[Karoht]

A 10-minute tea party no less.

Who has time for that?!
Who the hell enjoys a 10 minute tea party? Who calls a tea party that only lasts 10 minutes a party? That's not even a coffee break.
INB4-Ain't no one got time for that

Actually it just makes them use Cha instead of Wis, so they're no more MAD than before. And of course it goes extremely well with Cha-based classes like Ninja.Seconded. Playtested it with Ninja, lots of fun.
It makes them highly compatible with Bard as well, or my personal favorite, Holy Tactician Paladin.
Take that Holy Gun Archetype. Made completely obsolete by doing it better with a completely different class.
Mysterious Stranger can can also still get Dex to damage, just at level 9 instead. And with 3 levels in fighter with Trench Fighter Archetype, can get it again! Dex + Dex + Cha to damage is pretty fun.

[Snowbluff]

Archetypes are balanced on the WHOLE, not on a "piecemeal" scale. The fact that they almost always write things out as piecemeal is just stupid.

Also, you lose 1 spell per level with "nothing gained", while simultaneously gaining an Arcane Bond item while "losing nothing". Huh. How bout that.

It would have been better if you didn't suck so much early on. They could have staggered the slot loss until later levels very easily.

Who the hell enjoys a 10 minute tea party? Who calls a tea party that only lasts 10 minutes a party? That's not even a coffee break.

It's more like a ceremony. An awful ceremony. "Hey, guys, these orcs are attacking us! Let me get our tea ready..."

[(Un)Inspired]

The problem with the Scroll Master is that your Scrolls take damage automatically, they are easy to sunder, and they cannot be repaired. So you have to replace them. You also have a horrible BAB unless you go EK or use other PrCs.

You are also limited to using them as +4 Equivalent Weapons (yeah, you can't even go to +5).

And it actually replaces something much more useful -- your Arcane Bond.

Overall it is bad, but there are much worse Wizard Archetypes (since most of them are awful).

I agree that it is an awesome idea though. Too bad they screwed it up.

Who was the chump game designer who passed up on calling this archetype The Pagemaster?


Feral child has got to be the worst archetype of all. I know pathfinder wild shape sucks cake compared to the 3.5 version but giving it up for trap sense?!

It's like paizo made the archetype to accurately show that kids don't turn out as well when they raised by hawks or camels or whatever other wacky Druid AC there are.

[Karoht]

Who was the chump game designer who passed up on calling this archetype The Pagemaster?The one who thought getting sued was a terrible idea.

[(Un)Inspired]

The one who thought getting sued was a terrible idea.

Dude if there's a beastmaster ranger there should be a Pagemaster wizard.

[BWR]

Am I the only one who looked the Geisha and thought 'what the hell is a geisha doing with a Diplomacy boost?"

[Psyren]

It's more like a ceremony. An awful ceremony. "Hey, guys, these orcs are attacking us! Let me get our tea ready..."

It wouldn't be so bad if it lasted all day or even just an hour or two. But it takes 10 minutes to do and it only lasts for 10 minutes. It just boggles my mind.

[Alent]

It wouldn't be so bad if it lasted all day or even just an hour or two. But it takes 10 minutes to do and it only lasts for 10 minutes. It just boggles my mind.

I remember thinking Sandman was really bad when I was building my last bard, but I'd forgotten that Geisha was so bad.

On the upside, hey, the Orcs might be proud warrior race guys who sit down to partake of the ceremony before killing you in ritual combat.

Also, Spellgunner probably deserves a special prize for being one of the few Pathfinder dip build options.

[Pex]

Empyreal Knight

No Paladin player in his right mind would give up Divine Grace. However, if for some unfathomable reason a player is willing to trade it, it needs to be for something just as cool. Speak and read Celestial . . . is not it.

[Psyren]

Empyreal Knight

No Paladin player in his right mind would give up Divine Grace. However, if for some unfathomable reason a player is willing to trade it, it needs to be for something just as cool. Speak and read Celestial . . . is not it.

Losing DG sucks, but Empyreal Knight actually raises Paladin a tier because they get SMIX.

[Theomniadept]

Thunderstriker for Fighter. 20 levels of crap to gain the benefit of the 3.5 feat Improved Buckler Defense.

Ironskin Monk. As if hobgoblins didn't have enough troubles, this archetype replaces the normal monk's AC bonus that applies to everything with a useless natural armor bonus that not only advances slower, it also does not add Wisdom to the AC.

[icefractal]

Nominations:
Superstitious (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/superstitious) Barbarian. First off, the designer either has no idea what "superstitious" actually means, or he is horrible at spelling, as NONE of the class abilities reflect being superstitious at all. Suspicious seems a much better fit. Next, the Initiative and AC bonuses only apply during the Surprise Round, and that's only _if_ you are allowed to act in the Surprise round.The wording is ambiguous, but it looks like you get the initiative bonus always. You're not rolling for initiative during the surprise round, certainly. Also, it replaces Trap Sense, so it doesn't have to be very good to be an improvement.

The vision ability - it depends on the campaign. The amount of DR a Barbarian gets is not super impressive, especially if your foes tend toward casters or single-weapon types. So getting double-range Darkvision and (eventually) scent/blindsense/blindsight could be a worthwhile trade.

[grarrrg]

The wording is ambiguous, but it looks like you get the initiative bonus always. You're not rolling for initiative during the surprise round, certainly. Also, it replaces Trap Sense, so it doesn't have to be very good to be an improvement.

I'm upset at the Name more than anything else to be honest.
It's one of those things that darn well should be caught during the design process. It's like designing a class around the color Red and then calling it the "Viridian Avenger".
It shouldn't make it past 2 people before someone says "Hey, are you sure you didn't mean Vermillion?"

[(Un)Inspired]

I'm upset at the Name more than anything else to be honest.
It's one of those things that darn well should be caught during the design process. It's like designing a class around the color Red and then calling it the "Viridian Avenger".
It shouldn't make it past 2 people before someone says "Hey, are you sure you didn't mean Vermillion?"

Can someone build a druid prestige class called the Viridian Avenger please? I would play the sausage outa that class.

[deuxhero]

Ever wanted to give up a feat for a 50GP magic item and a cantrip at will, then lose another feat to do 2d6 damage for TWO standard actions (that may hurt you)? Neither did I, but apparently Blazing Torchbearer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/blazing-torchbearer-alchemist-archetype) is a thing for some reason.



Ironskin Monk. As if hobgoblins didn't have enough troubles, this archetype replaces the normal monk's AC bonus that applies to everything with a useless natural armor bonus that not only advances slower, it also does not add Wisdom to the AC.

You keep it in armor. You aren't proficent in armor, but mithral chain shirt is a +4 and you can stick special properties on it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Comatose Chemist is easily the worst archetype. For the "huge" benefit of another +2 strength over normal mutagen, well.... read it and face palm.


Rage Mutagen

At 2nd level, whenever a ragechemist comatose chemist creates a mutagen that improves his Strength, that mutagen’s bonus to Strength increases by 2 and penalizes the alchemist’s Intelligence score.

Furthermore, while under the effects of this mutagen, whenever the alchemist takes damage, his rage grows, with detrimental effects. At the end of each turn that he takes hit point damage, the ragechemist comatose chemist must succeed at a Will saving throw (DC 15, or DC 20 if any of the damage came from a critical hit that turn) or take a –2 penalty on Will saving throws and to Intelligence. These penalties end 1 hour after the mutagen ends and stack with themselves. If the penalty lowers the ragechemist comatose chemist’s Intelligence score to 0, the ragechemist comatose chemist is comatose until 1 hour after the mutagen expires.

This ability replaces poison use.

Note, this is on a poor will save class that has 4 stats he needs to give more priority to than wisdom. Also note that there is no RAW way of ending a mutagen early other than drinking a new one (which itself takes an hour to brew) if you're getting "dangerously low" and want to get out of your little death pact before it's too late.

Oh, but don't worry. The archetype gets better later on. I mean, just look at these awesome follow-on class features!


Sturdy Rage

At 6th level, whenever a ragechemist comatose chemist uses his rage mutagen, he also gains a +4 bonus to natural armor, but the penalty on Will saving throws and to Intelligence for taking damage increases to –4.

This ability replaces swift poisoning.


Lumbering Rage

At 10th level, whenever a ragechemist comatose chemist uses his rage mutagen ability, he may have the mutagen also give him a +2 morale bonus to Constitution, but when he takes a penalty on Will saving throws and to Intelligence, he also takes a –1 penalty to Dexterity.

This ability replaces poison immunity.

[Psyren]

I forgot ragechemist! Yeah they're pretty hilarious :smallbiggrin:

[(Un)Inspired]

Aaaaaand StreamOfTheSky wins the thread with the comatose chemist

[StreamOfTheSky]

Aaaaaand StreamOfTheSky wins the thread with the comatose chemist

:smallbiggrin:

Am I allowed to challenge myself for the title? I totally forgot about the Monk of the Healing Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-healing-hand), which is pretty terribad, too. And chained to a much crappier initial chassis (ie, the monk class).

I mean, Comatose Chemist probably wins out for being so horrible for all 20 levels, but it's hard to look at this capstone and not think of MotHH as a contender for #1 chump.


True Sacrifice (Su)

At 20th level, in a final selfless act, a monk of the healing hand can draw in his entire ki, which then explodes outward in a 50-foot-radius emanation. All dead allies within the emanation are brought back to life, as if they were the subject of a true resurrection spell with a caster level equal to the monk’s level. When the monk does this, he is truly and utterly destroyed. A monk destroyed in this way can never come back to life, not even by way of a wish or miracle spell or by the power of a deity. Furthermore, the monk’s name can never be spoken or written down again. All written mentions of his name become nothing more than a blank space.


This ability replaces perfect self.

[mucat]

:smallbiggrin:

Am I allowed to challenge myself for the title? I totally forgot about the Monk of the Healing Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-healing-hand), which is pretty terribad, too. And chained to a much crappier initial chassis (ie, the monk class).

I mean, Comatose Chemist probably wins out for being so horrible for all 20 levels, but it's hard to look at this capstone and not think of MotHH as a contender for #1 chump.

The Comatose Chemist still wins decisively, I think. I mean, you could try to say "don't take HP damage"...but since the only benefit it offers is a +2 Strength bonus, it's not an archetype for people who aren't going to mix it up in melee.

Monk of the Healing Hand isn't awful...the first three abilities it gives up (Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Quivering Palm) are so unimpressive, that a minor array of healing abilities are a fair trade. The worst you can say about the archetype is that lots of other classes (including a rogue with UMD and some wands) are better healers.

In a setting with no divine casters or divine-magic-related items, this guy would suddenly be really nice to have around...at least, better than a standard-issue monk.

The capstone doesn't say "chump" to me...just really, really situational. If you really need to True Resurrect dozens or hundreds of people at once -- to reverse a genocide, or to give the defeated good guys one more chance at a desperate last stand against some world-shattering enemy -- then it could be worth retroactively wiping yourself from history. Again, the ability would shine more in a setting where there aren't other options for raising the dead...or in a situation where there simply isn't time.

Trouble is, this time the monk is giving up something worth having -- the Perfect Self capstone -- for an ability that, unless things go disastrously bad, he/she can hope never to have to use.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't see anything wrong with Daredevil. It's more an NPC archetype than a PC one, but a fight against a troupe of these -- especially if you're up against a time limit, and they're harassing and delaying you -- could be a hell of a scene.

Well, people generally expect "PC Classes" to be for, well...the PCs, you know? And "being annoying to chase down and kill" isn't that impressive. Still, it's merely a bad archetype, not an abysmal one.



Monk of the Healing Hand isn't awful...the first three abilities it gives up (Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Quivering Palm) are so unimpressive....

To be fair, you can say this about almost every monk class feature. But yeah, MotHH is getting tossed in solely due to the crapstone. And the fact it's attached to the already-worst-class-in-the-game.


The capstone doesn't say "chump" to me...just really, really situational. If you really need to True Resurrect dozens or hundreds of people at once -- to reverse a genocide, or to give the defeated good guys one more chance at a desperate last stand against some world-shattering enemy -- then it could be worth retroactively wiping yourself from history. Again, the ability would shine more in a setting where there aren't other options for raising the dead...or in a situation where there simply isn't time.

Really? Reaching level 20 and perfecting the skills of your class leads to an ability to kill yourself and never ever come back, along with completely erasing all history of you from the world. And that doesn't sound like a chump to you? It's way, way, waaaaay beyond just "situational."


Trouble is, this time the monk is giving up something worth having -- the Perfect Self capstone -- for an ability that, unless things go disastrously bad, he/she can hope never to have to use.

Actually, perfect self is bad, too. It locks you out of Enlarge Person. Which, despite being a mere first level spell, is still plainly better than every benefit of Perfect Self. As a Monk, you don't want Perfect Self, either. But there are much less horrible swaps for it than Healing Hand's. Some are even not bad (not bad = about on par with a 5th - 10th level ability for any other class).

[(Un)Inspired]

:smallbiggrin:

Am I allowed to challenge myself for the title? I totally forgot about the Monk of the Healing Hand (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-healing-hand), which is pretty terribad, too. And chained to a much crappier initial chassis (ie, the monk class).

I mean, Comatose Chemist probably wins out for being so horrible for all 20 levels, but it's hard to look at this capstone and not think of MotHH as a contender for #1 chump.

No way dude that's the best monk archetype. It has a built in mechanic for letting you reroll as something other than a monk.

[deuxhero]

You don't have to use it, that alone makes it better than "you can't use your best buff anymore"

[StreamOfTheSky]

No way dude that's the best monk archetype. It has a built in mechanic for letting you reroll as something other than a monk.

But, like all good martial options in PF, you have to wait a really long time for it! :smallbiggrin:

[(Un)Inspired]

But, like all good martial options in PF, you have to wait a really long time for it! :smallbiggrin:

Haha well played sir.

[mucat]

Really? Reaching level 20 and perfecting the skills of your class leads to an ability to kill yourself and never ever come back, along with completely erasing all history of you from the world. And that doesn't sound like a chump to you? It's way, way, waaaaay beyond just "situational."
Unless you regard self-sacrifice in general as something that only chumps do, then the ability to erase your own existence to save others is something that a character might really want to have, under sufficiently desperate circumstances. Hence, "situational".

Trouble is, it's the kind of situation you do your damnedest to avoid...so unless all your plans, all your backup plans, and all your crazy contingency last-ditch alternatives are all shot to hell, this is a capstone you never use.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

It's not much, but there is an upside to the First Worlder archetype: you can use your Summon Nature's Ally while the eidolon is still out. It's not much, but it's something.

[avr]

The carnivalist is a rogue who sacrifices half their sneak attack for a familiar and their first 3 rogue talents for 2 of the most mediocre bardic performance options. I'm struggling to imagine what the carnivalist is supposed to do in combat.

Edit: the monk of the healing hand capstone still requires a standard action. So not only is it a last ditch thing to do, there's a very good chance that you won't get around to using it in time IMO.

[Forrestfire]

I think that monk capstone is awesome :smallbiggrin:

Now, it sucks that it's probably the only thing it gets, but that's the sort of thing I like to see on a capstone: cool fluffy stuff.

It's nicer when it also has cool, strong crunch stuff to go with it, but even as it is, that's exceedingly awesome.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The problem with the Scroll Master is that your Scrolls take damage automatically, they are easy to sunder, and they cannot be repaired. So you have to replace them. You also have a horrible BAB unless you go EK or use other PrCs.

You are also limited to using them as +4 Equivalent Weapons (yeah, you can't even go to +5).

And it actually replaces something much more useful -- your Arcane Bond.

Overall it is bad, but there are much worse Wizard Archetypes (since most of them are awful).

I agree that it is an awesome idea though. Too bad they screwed it up.

Look at the 10th level ability....

At 10th level, the scrollmaster can cast a Wizard spell from a scroll and use his own Intelligence score and relevant feats to set the DC for the spell, and can use his own caster level

That sounds like an awesome ability, granted your throwing away the whole concept of the archtype... but this seems worth trading in a bonus feat and arcane bond.

[Nihilarian]

The carnivalist is a rogue who sacrifices half their sneak attack for a familiar and their first 3 rogue talents for 2 of the most mediocre bardic performance options. I'm struggling to imagine what the carnivalist is supposed to do in combat.

Edit: the monk of the healing hand capstone still requires a standard action. So not only is it a last ditch thing to do, there's a very good chance that you won't get around to using it in time IMO.You could take 2 levels of Carnivalist Rogue and bail, going into Assassin or something similar. Both you and your familiar will be doing +6d6 or more damage per attack. Snag a pet with pounce and go to town.

Edit:
Look at the 10th level ability....


That sounds like an awesome ability, granted your throwing away the whole concept of the archtype... but this seems worth trading in a bonus feat and arcane bond.I'd rather play an Arcane Savant. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/a-b/pathfinder-savant)

Edit2: or a Cyphermage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/cyphermage).

[grarrrg]

After doing some semi-random searching on the SRD, I present:
Strategist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/strategist) Cavalier

Your Tactician Ability can now be used once per day at 1st, twice at 5th and an extra for every four levels after 5th. As opposed to normal, where you can use it once per day at 1st, twice at 5th, and an extra every five levels after 5th.
That's quite a bonus right there.

At 4th you lose Expert Trainer, and gain the ability to share an EXTRA Teamwork feat with your Allies.
And you only need to spend TEN whole MINUTES training them, and spend a use of Challenge! Also, the bonuses last a whole 10+1/2 level minutes! That's Geisha-level power right there!
You also must remain within Sight AND Hearing distance of all who are affected.

14th, you lose Great Banner, but whenever you use Tactician you can now take a Free Move action.

At 18th, you lose your free Bonus Feat, but whenever you use Tactician you can Cancel one of your Opponents Teamwork feats instead of granting one! But only within 30ft. of you.


OOOOooooOOOOO! Here's a new one.
Elementalist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/archetypes/paizo---oracle-archetypes/elementalist-oracle) Oracle
You must take specific Revelations at levels 1, 11, and 20.
1st level, you gain a BONUS LANGUAGE! And an additional language every 4 levels after!
That's a total of FIVE bonus languages!
Oh...wait...you must pick from among Aquan, Auran, Ignan, or Terran...that's only four...so much for level 17...

At 11th you gain an Elemental Subtype, and a matching bonus:
Air: Fly speed of 30 feet with perfect maneuverability.
Earth: Tremorsense to a range of 30 feet.
Fire: Immunity to fire and vulnerability to cold.
Water: Swim speed of 30 feet and can breathe underwater.
The Air and Earth look pretty sweet, but I'm not entirely sure the Fire one is worth it...especially considering if you're following a "theme" and picked the Flame Mystery...which offers Fire Immunity withOUT a drawback (albeit 6 levels later).

Level 20 capstone? FREE UNLIMITED ELEMENTAL SPELL METAMAGIC! WOOO!!!
Best.
Capstone.
EVAR!!!!!1!!1!!!
you also gain the ability to ignore Energy Resist, but ONLY on a Critical Hit

[Lord Vukodlak]

After doing some semi-random searching on the SRD, I present:
Strategist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/strategist) Cavalier

Your Tactician Ability can now be used once per day at 1st, twice at 5th and an extra for every four levels after 5th. As opposed to normal, where you can use it once per day at 1st, twice at 5th, and an extra every five level after 5th.
That's quite a bonus right there.

At 4th you lose Expert Trainer, and gain the ability to share an EXTRA Teamwork feat with your Allies.
And you only need to spend TEN whole MINUTES training them, and spend a use of Challenge! Also, the bonuses last a whole 10+1/2 level minutes! That's Geisha territory right there!
You also must remain within Sight AND Hearing distance of all who are affected.

14th, you lose Great Banner, but whenever you use Tactician you can now take a Free Move action.

At 18th, you lose your free Bonus Feat, but whenever you use Tactician you can instead Cancel one of your Opponents Teamwork feats! But only within 30ft. of you.


OOOOooooOOOOO! Here's a new one.
Elementalist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle/archetypes/paizo---oracle-archetypes/elementalist-oracle) Oracle
You must take specific Revelations at levels 1, 11, and 20.
1st level, you gain a BONUS LANGUAGE! And an additional language every 4 levels after!
That's a total of FIVE bonus languages!
Oh...wait...you must pick from among Aquan, Auran, Ignan, or Terran...that's only four...so much for level 17...

At 11th you gain an Elemental Subtype, and a matching bonus:
Air: Fly speed of 30 feet with perfect maneuverability.
Earth: Tremorsense to a range of 30 feet.
Fire: Immunity to fire and vulnerability to cold.
Water: Swim speed of 30 feet and can breathe underwater.
I'm not entirely sure the Fire one is worth it...especially considering if you're following a "theme" and picked the Flame Mystery...which offers Fire Immunity withOUT a drawback (albeit 6 levels later).

Level 20 capstone? FREE ELEMENTAL SPELL METAMAGIC! WOOO!!!
Best.
Capstone.
EVAR!!!!!1!!1!!!
you also gain the ability to ignore Energy Resist, but ONLY on a Critical Hit

I do believe you found the worst archtypes here have a cybercookie.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-t87gILv5lR8/UQqr4mejSLI/AAAAAAAADAU/30p2j_ghtLs/s1600/cookie%5B2%5D.jpg

[Nihilarian]

The Synthethist is a strict downgrade from the standard summoner. Action Economy is important.

[avr]

You could take 2 levels of Carnivalist Rogue and bail, going into Assassin or something similar. Both you and your familiar will be doing +6d6 or more damage per attack. Snag a pet with pounce and go to town.
Standard familiars don't get pounce and improved familiar requires an arcane caster level which you don't have. You won't get +6d6 sneak attack until character level 12 or 13 (depending on exact entry to assassin), at which point your cat or whatever runs a serious danger of being taken out by an AoO before it gets to enter the enemies' space (zero reach, tumble doesn't keep up with CMD, no magic, half a rogues' HP, rogue CMD without feats if the enemy has grab or similar.)

I don't think your scheme works at all.

[Nihilarian]

Standard familiars don't get pounce and improved familiar requires an arcane caster level which you don't have. You won't get +6d6 sneak attack until character level 12 or 13 (depending on exact entry to assassin), at which point your cat or whatever runs a serious danger of being taken out by an AoO before it gets to enter the enemies' space (zero reach, tumble doesn't keep up with CMD, no magic, half a rogues' HP, rogue CMD without feats if the enemy has grab or similar.)

I don't think your scheme works at all.Minor Magic gets you a caster level, Improved Familiar gets you the Dweomercat Cub or Silvanshee, evolved Familiar can give it reach on it's natural attacks.

Edit: forgot the caster level from Minor Magic functions at rogue level, so you'd need 7 levels in rogue. Or you can get a spell like ability from your race or something.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I'll submit the Crusader Cleric (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/paizo---cleric-archetypes/crusader).

That's right, you give up an upwards of 9 spells per day, one of each spell level, and an entire domain. What do you get in reward? Why, 5 bonus feats that can only come from a very small and never expanding list that focus entirely on sword and board fighting.

At 1st and 5th level: Heavy Armor Proficiency, Improved Shield Bash, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Saving Shield, Shield Focus, Tower Shield Proficiency, and Weapon Focus*.

At 10th level: Greater Shield Focus, Greater Weapon Focus*, Improved Critical*, Shield Slam, Shield Specialization, and Weapon Specialization*.

At 20th level: Greater Shield Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization*
You also gain the marvelous ability to spontaneously turn a spell of X with the range of touch, into a spell of X, mass with the range of touch. Using this ability costs the spell you're casting and a spell 3 levels higher.

[grarrrg]

Last one for the night, this one actually has a chance to dethrone the Ragechemist!

Gunner Squire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/gunner-squire) Gunslinger
I'll skip mentioning what it loses, as what it gains is down right pathetic.
This class is almost certainly intended to be used for Cohorts, and NOT actual player characters. You'll see why VERY shortly.
1st level: Spend a Standard Action, and a Grit point to reduce the Ranged To-Hit penalty of the next shot fired by someone else, assuming they would take a penalty anyway. The reduction is equal to your WIS mod, and they must make their attack on their next turn or lose the benefit, and it only works on one specific target at a time.
This is basically "Aid Another for Ranged", but MUCH more limited. Especially with the Grit expenditure.

2nd level: Spend a Full Round action to reduce Misfire chance by 1 for the next attack made. This _might_ be useful if you have multiple characters using guns, as you can do this for everyone between combats, so their 1st shot doesn't go bad. In combat...worthless.

3rd level: I'll just copy/paste the stupidity

At 3rd level, as a full-round action, a gunner squire can spend 1 grit point to reload a one-handed or two-handed firearm she is holding. If the firearm has multiple barrels, she can reload a number of barrels per round equal to her Dexterity modifier (minimum 1). A gunner squire equipped with alchemical cartridges (see Ultimate Equipment) can use this deed to reload multiple firearms at once, dividing the number of barrels she's able to reload among the firearms she is carrying however she wishes, even if this would mean stowing and retrieving multiple firearms from her equipment with one action. Abilities, deeds, and feats that decrease reloading time (such as Rapid Reload) do not improve this deed.
HOW IN THE NINE HELLS IS THIS USEFUL?!
Basic reloading is already faster/as-fast, and giving/taking the gun adds a Move Action to the equation. And I love how it mentions that Rapid Reload does nothing. You know what would work better than this ability? Just taking Rapid Reload.
Yeah, if you're using a Pepperbox withOUT access to Cartridges it _can_ be useful, but in every other situation...*shakes head in shame*


The Synthethist is a strict downgrade from the standard summoner. Action Economy is important.
It (mostly) removes the problem of "disable caster > beatstick disappears".

And there are a few beatdown builds that just wouldn't work right otherwise.
Gundolon for one. Doesn't work without an Eidolon-suit (no real way to get extra arms), and a normal Eidolon just doesn't have the Feats/bonuses to make it work.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The Synthethist is a strict downgrade from the standard summoner. Action Economy is important.

Ah but it solves one of the drawbacks a summoner has with his pet. Shared magic item slots. A summoner has to choose will this magic item slot go to him or his Eidolon?
Many of the Summoner's buffs last long term so he can cast them before battle and they don't have many spells per day so its not uncommon for a summoner to sit there and do nothing and just let his pets do the work.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Still nothing worse than Comatose Chemist, but since I don't think it's been mentioned yet, the "PK Rager" (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/barbarian/archetypes/paizo---barbarian-archetypes/wild-rager).

Actually decent as a VERY short dip to get more rage rounds per day thanks to a save DC so pathetically low (if you tank charisma into the ground) that you can largely control when you "lose control." But if you actually try to advance far into the archetype? Hoo boy does that save DC shoot up fast! For added insult, not only will you almost surely be the party's #1 leading cause of death, you'll also lose access to all your rage powers. You know, those things that make up 2/3 of your class features?

EDIT: Wait....when did they change Wild Rager? DC used to be 10 + Barb level + Cha, now it's 10 + 1/2 Barb level + Con.... So now, it's just plain worthless for everyone, because no one's gonna dump score Con. :smallannoyed:

[deuxhero]

PK Rager

Sadly it does not have a manifester level.

[Vanitas]

Am I the only one who looked the Geisha and thought 'what the hell is a geisha doing with a Diplomacy boost?"

Probably yes, considering Diplomacy fits geisha very well.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Probably yes, considering Diplomacy fits geisha very well.

Agreed anyone who knows anything about Geisha's would say diplomacy would be a major skill for them.

[Drachasor]

Look at the 10th level ability....

[Use your CL and Int mod for scrolls]

That sounds like an awesome ability, granted your throwing away the whole concept of the archtype... but this seems worth trading in a bonus feat and arcane bond.

This ability isn't THAT awesome at 10th level. It's a lot like the Wizard feat in PF that lets you use your CL and Int for wands (you can get this at level 11). By the time you get it, you've passed the levels where it would have the most utility. Wands and Scrolls get very expensive even if they use your CL, or they are low level spells that are just utility so it doesn't matter.

It's not bad at all, but it isn't great. It would be a lot more useful to get an ability like this around 5th-7th level. Low level scrolls and wands are really good here with a higher caster level (and you are just about capping off the effects of most of the stuff you'd care about). And like someone said, you CAN get this ability here via prestige classes.

And Arcane Bond is a very powerful ability. You either get a familiar that can take extra actions and use wands and other magic items with Improved Familiar (and since the Scrollmaster costs you a feat, this is at no relative feat cost). Or you get to cast ANY spell you know once per day. That's like the Scroll ability 1/day, but you don't even have to have made the scroll. Since Wizards usually know a crap-ton of spells, this is a pretty big deal -- those super-specialized spells you'd never even make scrolls for? A bonded object gets you them if that very, very rather circumstance comes up. Or you 'just' get another of your highest level spells. The only reason it gets rated lowly compared to a familiar is that the latter gets you another action per turn -- though an bonded object can do that if you make it intelligent (and no feats need be spent to do so).

So the 10th level ability isn't bad, but it isn't great. And the two first level abilities are just terrible since you don't have the capability to make best use of them and their effect is pretty weak.

Granted, most of the other wizard PrCs are worse. Some of them make you have 4 banned schools.

[N. Jolly]

Hey kids, want to play a hero but afraid of being important? Well here's the Weapon Bearer Squire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/weapon-bearer-squire), the brother of the Gun Squire.

And what do we get, Charlie?

Your first level feat goes to one of the most insulting abilities I've ever read, because it assumes you're someone else's property (which if you took this archetype, you are)


Weapon Rack: At 1st level, once per round, a knight can retrieve an item carried by his weapon bearer squire as a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. In addition, a weapon bearer squire can pick up items dropped by her knight as an immediate action without provoking attacks of opportunity.

The knight and the weapon bearer squire must be adjacent to each other and must both be able to move and communicate to use these abilities.

This ability replaces the 1st-level fighter bonus feat.

Oh, and the being treated like an object has just begun in exchange for our level 2 bonus feat substitution.


Swift Sharpening: At 2nd level, a weapon bearer squire can quickly hone her lord's weapons to make them more effective in combat. As a full-round action, a weapon bearer squire can use a whetstone to sharpen a weapon she is holding, granting whoever wields the weapon a +1 circumstance bonus on his next attack roll with that weapon. In addition, she can apply a weapon blanch to a weapon she is holding as a standard action, instead of a full-round action.

And to finish things out for Armor Training I, here's something that makes sure your master's weapons are never broken!


Combat Repairs: At 3rd level, a weapon bearer squire can ensure her liege never goes unarmed, even if his weapon has all but shattered. As a full-round action, a weapon bearer squire can make rapid repairs to a weapon she is holding and is proficient with by succeeding at a DC 20 Craft (weapons) check. The item does not regain any hit points, but loses the broken condition for a number of rounds equal to the weapon bearer squire's class level.

Because if there's anything the Fighter needed, it was a way to be even worse at everything and with a massive inferiority complex to boot.

[Nihilarian]

Let's just cut to the chase and link to the rest of the squire classes.

Herald Squire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/herald-squire): You ever want to ride ahead of the party and get killed tell everyone that more important people are coming? Boy have I got the archetype for you!
Combat Healer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/combat-healer-squire): Let's give the ability to use the heal skill in combat to a class that has Lay on Hands!

I'll throw in the Wyrm Sniper (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/gunslinger/archetypes/paizo---gunslinger-archetypes/wyrm-sniper-gunslinger-archetype) for being too situational and the Driver (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/driver) and Smuggler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/smuggler) for being more NPC archetypes.

[Augmental]

Unarmed fighter's actually pretty good as a dip archetype since it gives you early access to style feats. I've also seen some fairly hairy unarmed builds incorporating Unarmed Fighter.

I'd have to nominate one of the bard archetypes... Daredevil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-archetypes/daredevil) is pretty horrible.


Scoundrel’s Fortune (Ex)

At 5th level, once per day a daredevil can choose to roll two dice instead of one for any skill check, keeping the best result. She can use this ability one additional time per day for every three levels she possesses beyond 5th, to a maximum of eight times per day at 20th level.

This ability replaces lore master.

That should say six times per day. (5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20) :smallsigh:

[StreamOfTheSky]

Sadly it does not have a manifester level.

PK in this case standing for "Player Killer," but I do enjoy the involuntary mental image of Ness / PK Thunder every time I see it. :smallwink:

[grarrrg]

Herald Squire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/herald-squire): You ever want to ride ahead of the party and get killed tell everyone that more important people are coming? Boy have I got the archetype for you!

I thought about that one, but gave it a pass, as it does have potential to be useful.
Losing Tactician to get a bonus to Diplomacy checks? Solid for a dip.
+10ft. movement speed isn't all that great, but neither are _some_ 2nd level order abilities.
The ability to cast Tongues in and of itself isn't great, but Cavalier's Charge may go wasted in certain campaigns.
I'd say it's more "meh" than bad.


Combat Healer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/combat-healer-squire): Let's give the ability to use the heal skill in combat to a class that has Lay on Hands!

This one? Nope, got nothing.
Favorite part?
"The hit points healed are temporary, and only last 10 minutes, but they are not lost first like temporary hit points."
So they are "temporary" hit points, but they are not Temporary hit points. Got it? Good, me neither.

[Lord Vukodlak]

It seems to me the squire class archtypes are intended for cohorts not for PC's


And like someone said, you CAN get this ability here via prestige classes.

Actually no you can't the class ability lets you use caster level but not feats or your ability score modifier to saves.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It seems to me the squire class archtypes are intended for cohorts not for PC's.

Yeah, even as a cohort, you can do better with...nearly any other class.
Even in a PFS environment where crafting isn't allowed, so the best cohort of all (the "crafter wizard" - doesn't have to be a wizard) is out of the picture...I'd still rather have anything else.
(And if Leadership isn't banned in PFS too, anyway, I'd be shocked)

[Nihilarian]

I thought about that one, but gave it a pass, as it does have potential to be useful.
Losing Tactician to get a bonus to Diplomacy checks? Solid for a dip.
+10ft. movement speed isn't all that great, but neither are _some_ 2nd level order abilities.
Keep in mind that it's a bonus to a specific use of the skill and it only ever works once per creature, ever.

And while some Order abilities aren't great, some of them are.

Still, it's not to the level of the Rage Chemist or the Wild Rager.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Yeah, even as a cohort, you can do better with...nearly any other class.
Even in a PFS environment where crafting isn't allowed, so the best cohort of all (the "crafter wizard" - doesn't have to be a wizard) is out of the picture...I'd still rather have anything else.
(And if Leadership isn't banned in PFS too, anyway, I'd be shocked)

Some people pick cohorts to actually support the main character and not to simply be a second PC and given how low-level the squire abilities are... they could be applied to followers.

[Drachasor]

Actually no you can't the class ability lets you use caster level but not feats or your ability score modifier to saves.

The Cyphermage can.

Again, though, this ability isn't actually all that good.

[Starbuck_II]

I dunno, Daredevil seems to have its niche as an acrobatics master. And rolling twice on any skill check a few times a day is always appreciated.

I'd like to nominate the Trapper Ranger, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/ranger/archetypes/paizo---ranger-archetypes/trapper) as I have yet to find a legitimate use for its traps. Some of them even sound nice until you read them closely. (Spell-stealing trap? Sign me up-wait, what do you mean the enemy caster chooses what spells are lost? And it scales HORRIBLY? Well then.
True, but Trapfinding at 1st level.


Nominations:
Ragechemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist/archetypes/paizo---alchemist-archetypes/ragechemist) Alchemist. It is really not very good. You get fairly minor bonuses, at the risk of taking fairly harsh penalties any round you take damage. As you progress the penalties get MUCH harsher MUCH faster, and you gain some other piddly little bonuses to 'make up' for it.
.

Yeah, only way I could see redeeming it: +1 Str per fail save (yeah till not good till you fail twice, but it rewards you for failure which is unique).

[StreamOfTheSky]

Some people pick cohorts to actually support the main character and not to simply be a second PC

Why can't other (good) characters support the main character? Buffer caster, Bard, flank buddy sneak attacker, meat shield fighter for a caster character....
"Support" doesn't mean "sucks."


and given how low-level the squire abilities are... they could be applied to followers.

Or you could just get low level Sorcs to spam magic missile and color spray. For example. Or clerics to heal, bless, and mend (zomg, I found an orison that obsoletes that entire class feature!). Or even experts to handle various skills. Maybe they can each train a dinosaur and control them in the battle. Or even just demoralize everyone. The quire stuff is just garbage, or any purpose.

[grarrrg]

Ok, last one...I think...

Dragon Drinker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/dragon-drinker-sorcerer-archetype) Sorcerer
This thing is VERY "kill dragon" flavorful, but actual use?...
(spoiler for space...I'm in a typing mood)
Must take the Draconic Bloodline, nothing wrong so far.
Bloodline Arcana is replaced with 'whenever you damage a dragon with a spell, it takes bleed damage equal to the spell's level'.
I can inflict bleed damage with my spells. But only to Dragons.
Wow.

Next, you lose the Claw power from your Bloodline, and gain the benefits of the Dragoncrafting (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dragoncrafting) Feat with regards to Dragon Blood.
Whenever you drink Dragon blood the effects are increased. Normally you heal 1d4 damage, and get a (alchemical) +1 to Fort and Will saves for 1 minute.
With 11 levels in Dragon Drinker that gets boosted to...1d8 healed and +2 to Fort Will saves for 1 minute...You also get a +1 bonus to Caster level on any _one_ spell cast in the next minute.
Wow.

MUCH more useful is the the ability to "use your own draconic blood" to get the 1d4 HP and (resistance) +1 Fort/Will save. This is a Free Action, and can be used CHA+3/day.
This ability is actually quite useful at lower levels, assuming a CHA of 16, this is 6d4 self healing every day, and the save bonus is handy. Higher levels the healing is fairly small, and you'll probably have a Cloak giving you a much higher Resistance bonus anyway.

You sacrifice your 7th and 11th Bonus Feats for the ability to change your Energy Resist and/or Breath Weapon to another dragon type, but only when you drink a Vial of matching blood. The resistance lasts for 1 minute, and the Breath lasts for _1_ breath.
Wow.

19th you lose your bonus feat again, but you can now drink blood directly from a bleeding dragon as a Swift action. Also, whenever you drink dragon blood you now heal 3d8 and get a +3 (resistance??) to Fort/Will.
Confusing Save bonus type aside, how does the healing take a MASSIVE jump from 1d8 to 3d8, but the Save boost goes up _1_ point?

Short version: At low levels your Arcana blows, but you have a VERY handy 1st level Power.
At higher levels you had better be fighting Dragons ALL THE TIME, or at least have connections to a guy that can keep you supplied with Dragon Blood, or else the majority of your features are wasted.

[NotAnAardvark]

Not as bad as some of the examples here but Mysterious Stranger trades +dex to damage on every attack for +cha to damage as a grit ability.

Oh and he trades +dex damage from a grit ability for half damage on misses at the cost of grit. That one might actually be kinda decent if it weren't for the fact that the cost can't be reduced. And of course it's just damage, no effects or bonuses tied to the weapon or ammunition.

Also loses free repairs in exchange for a couple free unjams. Not as terrible a trade but still pretty meh.

So you're trading Dex*2 damage on every shot for Cha damage and half damage on misses if you waste grit.

Basically the only thing it actually does is give paladins the ability to play Holy Gun without being entirely godawful.

[Nihilarian]

Not as bad as some of the examples here but Mysterious Stranger trades +dex to damage on every attack for +cha to damage as a grit ability.

Oh and he trades +dex damage from a grit ability for half damage on misses at the cost of grit. That one might actually be kinda decent if it weren't for the fact that the cost can't be reduced. And of course it's just damage, no effects or bonuses tied to the weapon or ammunition.

Also loses free repairs in exchange for a couple free unjams. Not as terrible a trade but still pretty meh.

So you're trading Dex*2 damage on every shot for Cha damage and half damage on misses if you waste grit.

Basically the only thing it actually does is give paladins the ability to play Holy Gun without being entirely godawful.The Mysterious Stranger trades Gun Training 1 away. You still gain Gun Training 2-4. So you can get +Dex and +Cha on your shots.

The archetype is more or less an even trade.

[NotAnAardvark]

The Mysterious Stranger trades Gun Training 1 away. You still gain Gun Training 2-4. So you can get +Dex and +Cha on your shots.

The archetype is more or less an even trade.

The prevailing wisdom on the Paizo forums for a while was that because "gain an additional gun every blah blah blah" was under the original feature's description that by taking the first one you didn't qualify for the second, but I can understand why that's an odd interpretation though.

Even still you have to wait till level 9 to get Gun Training 2 and 11 to get Cha to damage for free. So that's most of your lifetime as a gunslinger doing awful damage. And even after that Dex*2 is better than Dex+Cha most of the time.

Don't think half damage on misses really makes up for that. Like I said, maybe if it was an autohit that did half damage or if you could Signature it.

[Drachasor]

The prevailing wisdom on the Paizo forums for a while was that because "gain an additional gun every blah blah blah" was under the original feature's description that by taking the first one you didn't qualify for the second, but I can understand why that's an odd interpretation though.

Even still you have to wait till level 9 to get Gun Training 2 and 11 to get Cha to damage for free. So that's most of your lifetime as a gunslinger doing awful damage. And even after that Dex*2 is better than Dex+Cha most of the time.

Don't think half damage on misses really makes up for that. Like I said, maybe if it was an autohit that did half damage or if you could Signature it.

The Archetype rules are pretty explicit. If you trade out Ability I, but keep the others, then everything gets downranked. So Gun Training 2 becomes Gun Training 1 and so forth.

I'm always a bit surprised by how awful Paizo can make stuff like Archetypes.

[Nihilarian]

The prevailing wisdom on the Paizo forums for a while was that because "gain an additional gun every blah blah blah" was under the original feature's description that by taking the first one you didn't qualify for the second, but I can understand why that's an odd interpretation though.I don't know why the "wisdom" of the Paizo Forums says that all instances of Gun Training are traded. It seems counterintuitive to me. The text specifically calls out Gun Training 1, leaving Gun Training 2-4 completely alone.

Let's look at a similar case: Weapon Training and Armor Training from the Fighter class. The Fighter has more archetypes so it'll be easier to prove the point.

Let's see... The Dervish of Dawn (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/dawnflower-dervish) trades out Armor Training 1 for Burst of Speed, Armor Training 2 for Desert Stride, Armor Training 3 for Rapid Attack and Armor Training 4 for Lightning Strike.

Obviously you can't trade the same class feature for multiple different abilities. Once you've traded it once you no longer have anything to trade. Yet the links all refer you back to the same class feature.

It seems pretty obvious that you can trade individual instances of an ability without touching other instances of the same ability.

Meanwhile, the Polearm Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/polearm-master) trades all instances of Armor Training for one ability which improves when you would otherwise gain the next instance. In other words, if they want to replace every instance of a class feature with another ability, they will specify that the ability replaces every instance.

Finally, the Tactician (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/tactician) replaces a single instance of Armor Training and a single instance of Weapon Training for other abilities. Will the Tactician also be denied Weapon Training 2-4 and Armor Training 4? This would feel very sloppy. Why not put the higher level instances of the ability in the sentence as well? Or at least chopping off the number. You could make a case for it if it just said "This ability replaces Weapon Training".

So yeah, it seems pretty obvious that the intent was to trade Gun Training 1 and not touch Gun Training 2-4 at all.

[NightbringerGGZ]

I don't know why the "wisdom" of the Paizo Forums says that all instances of Gun Training are traded. It seems counterintuitive to me. The text specifically calls out Gun Training 1, leaving Gun Training 2-4 completely alone.

That's a rather recent Eratta. D20PFSRD updated their pages without noting that there were recent changes. Prior to the Eratta the Mysterious Stranger simply traded out "Gun Training" which implied all levels. The Pistolero also gained Dex to damage on Pistols but there was no mention of Gun Training being lost (which gave them 2x Dex to damage). That was changed with the recent Eratta as well.

[Nihilarian]

That's a rather recent Eratta. D20PFSRD updated their pages without noting that there were recent changes. Prior to the Eratta the Mysterious Stranger simply traded out "Gun Training" which implied all levels. The Pistolero also gained Dex to damage on Pistols but there was no mention of Gun Training being lost (which gave them 2x Dex to damage). That was changed with the recent Eratta as well.Thanks, good to know.

[grarrrg]

Not as bad as some of the examples here but Mysterious Stranger ...
Oh and he trades +dex damage from a grit ability for half damage on misses at the cost of grit. That one might actually be kinda decent if it weren't for the fact that the cost can't be reduced. And of course it's just damage, no effects or bonuses tied to the weapon or ammunition.
...
So you're trading Dex*2 damage on every shot for Cha damage and half damage on misses if you waste grit.
...
And even after that Dex*2 is better than Dex+Cha most of the time.

Don't think half damage on misses really makes up for that. Like I said, maybe if it was an autohit that did half damage or if you could Signature it.
I don't think you quite understand how Bleed damage works.
Bleed (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Bleed)

A creature that is taking bleed damage takes the listed amount of damage at the beginning of its turn....Bleed effects do not stack with each other unless they deal different kinds of damage.

Each shot is _not_ doing DEX*2 damage.
The _first_ shot does +DEX damage, and inflicts Bleed equal to your DEX.
Every other shot _only_ does +DEX damage.
So if I have 20 DEX and 3 shots per round, the first attack does +5, and inflicts Bleed=5, the next 2 shots only do +5 damage. When the victim starts their turn they take 5 damage. They do NOT take 15 damage.
Next round _all_ of my attacks only deal +5 damage.

[FabulousFizban]

Holy Gun. Hey, let's make Paladins MAD again while taking away the things that makes them awesome.

It's okay as a gunslinger dip. I'll take the ability to bypass DR with my touch attacks.

[FabulousFizban]

I don't see anything wrong with Daredevil. It's more an NPC archetype than a PC one, but a fight against a troupe of these -- especially if you're up against a time limit, and they're harassing and delaying you -- could be a hell of a scene.

absolutely using this.

[grarrrg]

It's okay as a gunslinger dip. I'll take the ability to bypass DR with my touch attacks.

The issue with Holy Gun is that the Smite is _specifically_ a Standard Action to use.
So it's all well and good the first few levels when you can really only make 1 attack per round anyway.
Sometime after level 6 (give or take Rapid Shot) and you are able to -hit- with multiple attacks you are just better off making multiple attacks, which actually works somewhat BETTER with regular Smite.

[Nihilarian]

It's okay as a gunslinger dip. I'll take the ability to bypass DR with my touch attacks.There are better ways of dealing DR. Clustered Shots is a good one.