Re-reading the Durkula strips with #946 in mind

[Finagle]

I just went through and re-read all the Durkula strips starting after Malack died and he got free will (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html), with the foreknowledge of the reveal in #946. It puts his actions in rather a different light, eh? Putting the coup de grace on Z'zdtri looks different now.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

To me, #939 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0939.html) is especially chilling, since that's where I thought Durkon might actually be still with the Order. It looks very different now that I know everything he said there was acting.

[Sunken Valley]

He says he's naught without his magic. The real Durkon would be in melee even with no spells. That should have been a clue.

[littlebum2002]

I KNEW his accent was different. I need to find my post where I said that You all called me crazy!

[Fan67]

I find this plot twist very strange.

As I recall Rich said he wanted to vampirize Durkon as a part of his long due character development. But if it is not Durkon, and real Durkon is unchanged and trapped inside, where is the character development?

If you think about it, it is not in any way different from Nale's infiltration of the party which ended with leprechaun costume.

Not that I dislike it or something, just strange deviation from what I though he did here. I honestly was looking forward to see how lawful good lad is being written to change due to cosmological shift in his alignment. How he reacts diffenetly. Not I feel just like cheerleader, waiting for Team Durkon to have a touch down.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I find this plot twist very strange.

As I recall Rich said he wanted to vampirize Durkon as a part of his long due character development. But if it is not Durkon, and real Durkon is unchanged and trapped inside, where is the character development?

If you think about it, it is not in any way different from Nale's infiltration of the party which ended with leprechaun costume.

Not that I dislike it or something, just strange deviation from what I though he did here. I honestly was looking forward to see how lawful good lad is being written to change due to cosmological shift in his alignment. How he reacts diffenetly. Not I feel just like cheerleader, waiting for Team Durkon to have a touch down.
There is still an opportunity for Durkon to have character development. After all, he is still present and in the story, and might have end up with character development as a result of the current story. If Durkon had been entirely removed from the story, then there would be no character development. However, since he is still here, he can still undergo character development as a result of becoming a Vampire.

[Porthos]

I find this plot twist very strange.

As I recall Rich said he wanted to vampirize Durkon as a part of his long due character development. But if it is not Durkon, and real Durkon is unchanged and trapped inside, where is the character development?

You know, I wonder if this is a giant case of Telephone (which, admittedly, I've been taking part of).

Where, EXACTLY, does Rich say that he vamped Durkon to give him character development?

Not implied. Not inferred. EXACTLY stated.

Because I don't think it is.

IIRC, this all got started with this post:


Yes, this is pretty much on the mark.

Just to give an idea of how much the plot is planned, here's a story that will likely end up in the commentary for the next book in a different format:

One of the things I may have mentioned in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools is that while strip #1 was always the first comic, strip #4 was actually the next one produced. Before I posted it, however, I produced another strip that has never been posted; we'll call it #A.

The events depicted in #A can be summarized as follows: Elan and Haley walk on stage to where Roy is waiting. Looking sad and crying, they inform Roy that they met some undead, and Durkon turned undead. Roy is confused, they reiterate. Roy gets annoyed, says that Durkon's a cleric, so of course he turned undead, stop being so stupid. Haley and Elan walk back to the left where V and Belkar are restraining a Durkon that is a vampire—he literally turned into an undead. They make a crack about how Roy took it really well. Ba dum bump.

I did not post this strip; instead, I went back and decided that rather than one-off gags, I wanted each strip to feed into the events of the next. So I wrote #2 and #3 to get from the already-posted #1 to the already-finished (and now renumbered) #4. But that left me with #A, which if I posted it, would derail my fledgling sense of continuity, because I had no way to undo Durkon's vampirism. In the end, I tabled the joke and drew #5 instead.

However, as a result of that comic, it has always been true that someday, Durkon was going to turn into a vampire. At first, I was just going to save the joke for a day when they would have access to the means to undo it, and then later, I decided to drop the punchline and really make it a major part of what happens. But as a plot element, it literally predates the existence of the Snarl, or the Gates, or any other aspect of the plot—even Xykon himself! All of Durkon's characterization and plot, since 2003, has been leading to him becoming a vampire and the story that would spin out of that. It has influenced hundreds of decisions going back ten years of comic.

So when I post the comic where Malack kills Durkon, and then raises him as a vampire, it is not a valid criticism to come here and say, "You shouldn't have done that, you ruined the comic, Durkon should have won." The comic you're reading is the way it is for the purpose of turning Durkon into a vampire! Malack was created for the purpose of turning Durkon into a vampire! There was no possible scenario where you would be reading a Malack vs. Durkon fight scene that didn't end with Durkon getting vamped.

That's what I mean when I say that the big plot points are not really open to criticism. At a certain point, that's just the story this happens to be, and we can argue about execution, but it's still happening one way or the other.

If someone can show me where he said he was going to vamp Durkon to give him character development, I'd be much obliged.

[Zmeoaice]

He wants a place "Dark and Secluded" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0934.html) to "meditate for new spells".

[Gift Jeraff]

You know, I wonder if this is a giant case of Telephone (which, admittedly, I've been taking part of).

Where, EXACTLY, does Rich say that he vamped Durkon to give him character development?

Not implied. Not inferred. EXACTLY stated.

Because I don't think it is.

IIRC, this all got started with this post:



If someone can show me where he said he was going to vamp Durkon to give him character development, I'd be much obliged.

There was also this from the Geekademia interview:
That's true, that is correct, and that was a conscious sort of effort on my part, because I felt like Vaarsuvius had been underutilized. . . by the end of the War and XPs book I felt like Vaarsuvius was sort of. . . "and then we have an elf!" Which is a problem I still have with Durkon but I have plans to address as well.

But that's more about being utilized than having character development.

[Porthos]

There was also this from the Geekademia interview:

But that's more about being utilized than having character development.

See that's the thing. I don't doubt that this will be Durkon's time to shine. I also don't doubt that it is possible for Durkon to get character development because of all this (as I've argued elsewhere).

I just don't think we should overstate what Rich actually said.

[Particle_Man]

I see Durkon as sort of like Peter Parker's soul trapped in Doc Ock's mind which took over Spider-Man's body (it is complicated). So Durkon at least knows what the vampire is doing and can get character development by being pained about it and trying to figure a way out (or at least to get a message out to his friends). At the very least, he can gather information, much like O-Chul gathered information about Xykon's spell list, one painful casting at a time.

[Vladier]

I see Durkon as sort of like Peter Parker's soul trapped in Doc Ock's mind which took over Spider-Man's body (it is complicated). So Durkon at least knows what the vampire is doing and can get character development by being pained about it and trying to figure a way out (or at least to get a message out to his friends). At the very least, he can gather information, much like O-Chul gathered information about Xykon's spell list, one painful casting at a time.

That's not really character development. That's simply extension of Durkon's existing character as we know him. Development implies change and Durkon fighting against an undead that drives his body and plans to bring ruin to the world and make Thor kneel before Hel is exactly what Durkon would've done.

[Porthos]

Development implies change

Not necessarily, as I have seen argued elsewhere (latest discussion thread, mostly).

Revealing hidden/underdevloped factes of a personality, exploring what it means to have certain core traits, even looking in a mirror and rededicating ones self to what you hold dear can all be considered character development.

If, and as I said before I think we should qualify this with an if, this was done for 'character development' reasons, it could have been done (being done? :smallconfused:) to make Durkon a central character for an arc, you know.

[rbetieh]

The one who is getting character development here is Roy. He is stuck now making decisions without the one person whose advise he trusted the most. We can see that in the Varsuvius confession. Roy is on his own when it comes to the big decisions, and he will most likely start questioning what he is doing. Either Haley steps up or the HPOH starts leading the team astray...

[veti]

The one who is getting character development here is Roy. He is stuck now making decisions without the one person whose advise he trusted the most. We can see that in the Varsuvius confession. Roy is on his own when it comes to the big decisions, and he will most likely start questioning what he is doing. Either Haley steps up or the HPOH starts leading the team astray...

Has Durkon ever given Roy that sort of advice? Has Roy ever asked for it?

I can think of a couple of occasions when Durkon gave Roy unsolicited advice: when the party met Miko, and when Elan was captured by bandits. Both times, Roy comprehensively ignored what Durkon said.

[Vladier]

Not necessarily, as I have seen argued elsewhere (latest discussion thread, mostly).

Revealing hidden/underdevloped factes of a personality, exploring what it means to have certain core traits, even looking in a mirror and rededicating ones self to what you hold dear can all be considered character development.

If, and as I said before I think we should qualify this with an if, this was done for 'character development' reasons, it could have been done (being done? :smallconfused:) to make Durkon a central character for an arc, you know.

Well, I sort of include all these things into the meaning of change for there is change in how the readers perceive the character.

Now, if he would've sided with the High Priest of Hel because, it turns out, he actually believes that Hel deserves worshipping despite being Hel, that would be character development. Or if it turns out that Hel's worship actually existed and was wiped out by the clergy of Thor along with every mention of it, thus forcing Durkon to face the reality that maybe his dwarven ways are not always worth following even through your own unhappiness, despite his previous comment on the matter, then whatever conclusion he would've come up to would be character's development, even if it were what we already know about him.
Still, if Durkon simply does what he would've done as we know him now, there isn't really any character development.

[ti'esar]

As far as the character development goes, I thought one possibility seemed obvious. What's Durkon's possibly biggest flaw? His passivity and tendency to fade into the background and let other people take the lead. Well, now Durkon's completely on his own: either he sits back and lets the HPOH do Hel knows what, or he has to step up and do whatever he can to sabotage the vampire.

Yes, you could make a case that this isn't really development, because we know it's what he'd do. But when have we ever actually seen Durkon having to step up and confront a problem entirely by himself?

[Lombard]

"However, as a result of that comic, it has always been true that someday, Durkon was going to turn into a vampire."

lol 900 strips later.. the inevitability is impressive but also a bit umm frightening..

"However, despite being thwarted by my mom at that time, it has always been true that someday I would have a pet cat and shave it to look like a little lion" --> pic of 35 years old Rich w/ sad cat :smalltongue:

[carolnegate]

What I find most intriguing is that Durkula gets so angry in 931 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0931.html) that he totally forgets his accent for a moment there.

As for whether or not Durkon would actually develop as a character from being trapped inside Durkula, one of the more common ways of developing a character is to put them in unusual situations such as this one. Watching a character encounter problems they're not accustomed to can often give readers a huge amount of insight about their personality. To quote the Nale example from above, Elan got a huge amount of development when Nale took over his spot in the party. Roy developed massively when he died. Vaarsuvius is still getting development from the consequences of the choices V made while under the Soul Splice.

Even just seeing Durkon's expression in this most recent strip gives him a small amount of development. Durkon rarely gets angry, let alone outright furious. It's interesting to see him put in a situation where he refuses to sit idly by and wait for the problem to resolve itself. Heck, he currently has even less control of his destiny than he did when he was on the ship. Yet, on the ship, he was willing to twiddle his thumbs, not getting particularly worked up about his dead leader and missing friends. Now, however, it seems that some sort of threshold has been crossed, and he is clearly not okay with letting Durkula control his body while he waits for a solution to present itself. Of course, there is little he can do right now to find and implement such a solution. I'm anxious to see how Rich handles this situation and uses it to add more detail to arguably the least-developed character in the entire core six.

[DeliaP]

You know, I wonder if this is a giant case of Telephone (which, admittedly, I've been taking part of).

Where, EXACTLY, does Rich say that he vamped Durkon to give him character development?

Not implied. Not inferred. EXACTLY stated.

Because I don't think it is.<snip>
If someone can show me where he said he was going to vamp Durkon to give him character development, I'd be much obliged.

Huh, that's interesting.

I think I'd taken it as read that the Giant had stated in the Geekademia interview that Durkon still needed "character development".... but was one of the people who very definitely regarded that as meaning just "time in the spotlight", which would result in us getting to know Durkon in more depth (not necessarily Durkon changing) much like this:


Not necessarily, as I have seen argued elsewhere (latest discussion thread, mostly).

Revealing hidden/underdevloped factes of a personality, exploring what it means to have certain core traits, even looking in a mirror and rededicating ones self to what you hold dear can all be considered character development.

If, and as I said before I think we should qualify this with an if, this was done for 'character development' reasons, it could have been done (being done? :smallconfused:) to make Durkon a central character for an arc, you know.

I find it very interesting if the Giant never actually used the phrase "character development", but in fact said something much closer to time in the spotlight. In other words, the Giant was just saying, Durkon hadn't been a significant actor in a subplot, but he already had plans to take care of that (plans which we now know went back as far as Strip no 2!)

It reads to me that a lot of the people who are looking for "character change" are people who don't like Durkon. I've heard descriptives like bland, boring, uptight, bigoted, passive used. A significant fraction seem to be about his insistence on duty and his rejection of Hilgya. Another fraction involve his antipathy to undead. Quite a lot of the rest might simply just be about the fact that he hasn't had a lot of spotlight time, and so we don't know him as deeply as the other characters.

The thing is, I didn't read Durkon in such negative terms: quite the opposite. The Durkon I see is self-sacrificing, putting his duty as he sees it ahead of himself. And that's not a bad thing.
He rushes to rescue the adventures that he is fully aware sent him on what they though would be a suicide mission.

He doesn't hog the spotlight and instead supports others.

As far as the character development goes, I thought one possibility seemed obvious. What's Durkon's possibly biggest flaw? His passivity and tendency to fade into the background and let other people take the lead. <snip>But when have we ever actually seen Durkon having to step up and confront a problem entirely by himself?
But you know, when it's really needed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0352.html) in the Cliffport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html) fight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html)? (EDIT: oh, and a few strips following this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html) one :smallwink: although it didn't turn out too well...)

I look at his interactions with Kazumi (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html) and Daigo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html) and I see a nice guy. He remembers to cast Mass Death Ward on a cat. His dying wish is to ask for protection for his friends. He doesn't have a selfish bone in his body.

I am also remember that during the fight with Malack (when a forum poster made a particularly grotesque and ill considered attempt to equate vampirism with being gay, casting Durkon in the role of homophobe) the Giant described Durkon as one of the most benevolent characters in the comic.

So I was genuinely perplexed that people thought it would have been character development to make Durkon evil. Generally the character changes we have seen for the OotS, from their spotlight times, have been making them better people (Roy tearing up the contracts, walking away from Eugene; Haley learning to trust; Elan learning that he needs to be more realistic, and that stories are fun but some things are more important; even Belkar becoming less 1D, and V - somewhat after the horse has bolted, alas - discovering where egomania and the desire for power gets you) How would Durkon becoming evil have fitted into that?

I want to see Durkon get some spotlight. But I'm not sure I need to see him change.

[Takver]

Well said, DeliaP. I agree that character development for Durkon doesn't necessitate compromising his goodness by mixing it with evil. I wouldn't like to see that for Durkon. I thought we learned a lot about him from his fight with Malack and his death. He protected Belkar even though he couldn't stand him. He made a stand against a stronger opponent. He refused to compromise with a terrible evil. He tried everything to win against Malack, but when he saw that he was going to lose, he was unafraid of death. He asked for mercy for his friends with his dying breath. That's the kind of character development I want to see more of for him. Change and growth is part of it but I just don't find it at all interesting to say ""suddenly he's evil because of external forces."

[Rodin]

I think a lot of the discussion about Durkon's character development came from the debate over whether Durkula was Durkon or not. If it was a new creature, then Durkon doesn't get any character development because he's just cooling his heels in the afterlife and any development we see in Durkula would vanish when he was inevitably staked to bring back Durkon. If it was Durkon turned Evil, we would see him learn a bunch about himself and then he would return as a changed Dwarf.

Of course, the way we have it now is the best of both worlds. Durkula is a new being with all the potential for chaos that entails, but Durkon isn't in the afterlife - he's right there watching it all happen, and getting character development in his struggles to set things right.

[ti'esar]

It's interesting how that possibility never seems to have occurred to anyone.

[Rodin]

It's interesting how that possibility never seems to have occurred to anyone.

It did to a few, as I recall. It just wasn't a very popular position so they got drowned out by the rest of us, being shouted down by "This is not the Buffy-verse". (For the record, I was a "this is Evil Durkon" proponent).

Anyone who correctly called it, your free cookies are in the airship's hold. They're chocolate chip!

[ti'esar]

It did to a few, as I recall. It just wasn't a very popular position so they got drowned out by the rest of us, being shouted down by "This is not the Buffy-verse". (For the record, I was a "this is Evil Durkon" proponent).

Anyone who correctly called it, your free cookies are in the airship's hold. They're chocolate chip!

But it's not how Buffyverse vampires work either. The people talking about that, or otherwise disputing Evil Durkon, all seemed to think that the real Durkon had gone onto the afterlife. I can't think of anyone who argued "the vampire is not Durkon, but Durkon's soul is trapped inside".

[ufo]

The Order go to Dwarven Lands, Durkon discovers through the eyes of Darkon that his exile is actually a self-fulfillment of da prophecy and stops being lawful.

Eh, spoilers, I guess.

[Rodin]

The Order go to Dwarven Lands, Durkon discovers through the eyes of Darkon that his exile is actually a self-fulfillment of da prophecy and stops being lawful.

Eh, spoilers, I guess.

Who actually knows about it though? We (the audience) know that the High Priest who originally exiled him has died, and didn't pass on the knowledge to the new High Priest. If Miko hadn't run into Xykon on the way back, Durkon might already be on his way home by now (although he probably would have stuck by the Order regardless).

Who else actually knew the details?

[Vladier]

It's actually rather interesting to note how the High Priest of Hel behaves in combat. Durkon would've most likely been doing something in melee range instead of lamenting his lack of spells. As we know, Durkon rarely ever uses any ranged divine spells, like Searing Light or Flame Strike, despite being able to cast them and the former being useful against undead. I don't think we've even seen him control someone apart from Holy Word. His only spells apart from healing and utilities were buffs and he would usually use brute force in combat. This contrasts with Redcloak who loves his Disintegrate and Malack who was seen using Flame Strike and in close combat preferred touch-spells and using his vampire abilities and subterfuge.

I suppose this gives credence to the theory that the High Priest has existed for some time already and has personality of his own and not just copies Durkon's memories. Maybe next time we see him in combat he will behave like a nuke-cleric and not bash-cleric, who knows?

[Killer Angel]

But if it is not Durkon, and real Durkon is unchanged and trapped inside, where is the character development?


The development happens inside the cage. :smallwink:

[ufo]

It's actually rather interesting to note how the High Priest of Hel behaves in combat. Durkon would've most likely been doing something in melee range instead of lamenting his lack of spells. As we know, Durkon rarely ever uses any ranged divine spells, like Searing Light or Flame Strike, despite being able to cast them and the former being useful against undead. I don't think we've even seen him control someone apart from Holy Word. His only spells apart from healing and utilities were buffs and he would usually use brute force in combat. This contrasts with Redcloak who loves his Disintegrate and Malack who was seen using Flame Strike and in close combat preferred touch-spells and using his vampire abilities and subterfuge.

I suppose this gives credence to the theory that the High Priest has existed for some time already and has personality of his own and not just copies Durkon's memories. Maybe next time we see him in combat he will behave like a nuke-cleric and not bash-cleric, who knows?

I think this is a very nice observation. If you look at Durkon and Malack's duel pre-turning, I'd dare say it plays out the way it does specifically to contrast Darkon's fighting style in the battle against Tarquin's army.

First panel, case in point: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0876.html

[Finagle]

It reads to me that a lot of the people who are looking for "character change" are people who don't like Durkon. I've heard descriptives like bland, boring, uptight, bigoted, passive used. A significant fraction seem to be about his insistence on duty and his rejection of Hilgya. Another fraction involve his antipathy to undead. Quite a lot of the rest might simply just be about the fact that he hasn't had a lot of spotlight time, and so we don't know him as deeply as the other characters.

The thing is, I didn't read Durkon in such negative terms: quite the opposite. The Durkon I see is self-sacrificing, putting his duty as he sees it ahead of himself. And that's not a bad thing.

Well-said. Quoted for truth.

It seems most people can't conceive of a character in a fictional story practicing anything outside 21st Century individualist morality.

[AKA_Bait]

It's actually rather interesting to note how the High Priest of Hel behaves in combat. Durkon would've most likely been doing something in melee range instead of lamenting his lack of spells. As we know, Durkon rarely ever uses any ranged divine spells, like Searing Light or Flame Strike, despite being able to cast them and the former being useful against undead. I don't think we've even seen him control someone apart from Holy Word. His only spells apart from healing and utilities were buffs and he would usually use brute force in combat. This contrasts with Redcloak who loves his Disintegrate and Malack who was seen using Flame Strike and in close combat preferred touch-spells and using his vampire abilities and subterfuge.

I suppose this gives credence to the theory that the High Priest has existed for some time already and has personality of his own and not just copies Durkon's memories. Maybe next time we see him in combat he will behave like a nuke-cleric and not bash-cleric, who knows?


It is an interesting observation, and not one I'd given any thought to before. That said, I'm not sure it supports the theory that the HPH existed prior to Durkon's death. It could also have been a sign that the HPH was evil. In other words, that he doesn't put himself directly in danger during combat unless absolutely necessary for his survival is was a clue toward his selfishness. Selfishness in D&D alignment terms is, by definition, a non-good trait.

[LasVegasLawyer]

The development happens inside the cage. :smallwink:

THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!
Reference to pair of Star Trek:TNG episodes in which the entirety of the character development revolves around a main character tortured to near-insanity.
The development will likely grow out of Durkon's fights against the critter inhabiting his body, how/when he breaks free, and whether he views it his responsibility to rectify the carnage that his body will wreak.

[pendell]

TBH, I would not have twigged to Durkula being a different being from Durkon based solely on his use of spells over melee, or his occasional accent slip-ups. The vampire template grants an intelligence bonus, so it is quite reasonable for Durkon to change both his fighting strategy and his word choice even if he is the same being. If I had not seen 946, I would have gone on believing it was Durkon through and through.

Of course, the Order doesn't know any of this. Instead, they react according to their prejudices -- Belkar choosing to believe the worst of him while the others , being good, choose to believe the best. How they will get past those prejudices to actual knowledge promises to be an interesting adventure. Almost as interesting as the fact that Rich should choose to reveal this to us but not to the cast.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Sir_Leorik]

It did to a few, as I recall. It just wasn't a very popular position so they got drowned out by the rest of us, being shouted down by "This is not the Buffy-verse". (For the record, I was a "this is Evil Durkon" proponent).

Anyone who correctly called it, your free cookies are in the airship's hold. They're chocolate chip!

As one of the forum members who argued that D&D Vampires and Buffy Vampires aren't the same, I also steadfastly argued that Durkon was almost certainly Evil. And what's happened to Durkon is very much not what happens to "Buffy-verse" Vampires, since Durkon's soul is still in the Vampire body, while the High Priest is in the driver's seat. The reason I objected (prior to comic #946) is that while D&D's portrayal of Vampires isn't the most consistent, it generally portrays Vampires as having souls, but being corrupted by Negative Energy or by their Sire's influence. Durkon didn't have time for either, so it was a question of what had happened to him and how. Now we know the answer to "what", but not to "how".

[CrispyCriminal]

Who actually knows about it though? We (the audience) know that the High Priest who originally exiled him has died, and didn't pass on the knowledge to the new High Priest. If Miko hadn't run into Xykon on the way back, Durkon might already be on his way home by now (although he probably would have stuck by the Order regardless).

Who else actually knew the details?

OtoOPC Spoiler:

The Temple brewmaster Firuk Blackore knows. He's still likely alive unlike the (then) High Priest of Thor.

[YourNewOverlord]

Although it's pre-vampirization, the final panel of this strip seems much darker now.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html

Seems like it might be a deliberate move on Hel's part- which means she's probably been planning this, or at least watching Durkon, for a while.

[konradknox]

I propose HPH as new official name for Durkula.