Undead Tricks and Tips?(3.5)

[sambouchah]

What are some good Necromancer tricks for creation of Undead? There's always Corpse Crafter, DN 8, Desecrated Dark Alter, and having the Deathbound Domain Granted Power(I can't remember if that's as useful as I am remembering it). Do you guys have any other things to make undead more powerful?

Thanks!
Sam

[Dusk Eclipse]

Spellstitchingto add in some nasty spells (inflict X are a good way to make them a little beefier) to your undead. IIRC you only need Craft Wondrous Items for this.

There is an undead with a constant negative energy aura.... I can't remember the name, Necrosomething from MM III if I am not mistaken. Get one, reduce him, haunt shift or something and send it with the rest of your undead for pseudo-fast healing. On that note Black Sand (Sandstorm) works great for this if you are using undead who wear clothes (put a little sand in their boots) and they essentially have Fast heal 1d6 for ever.

[sambouchah]

Spellstitchingto add in some nasty spells (inflict X are a good way to make them a little beefier) to your undead. IIRC you only need Craft Wondrous Items for this.

There is an undead with a constant negative energy aura.... I can't remember the name, Necrosomething from MM III if I am not mistaken. Get one, reduce him, haunt shift or something and send it with the rest of your undead for pseudo-fast healing. On that note Black Sand (Sandstorm) works great for this if you are using undead who wear clothes (put a little sand in their boots) and they essentially have Fast heal 1d6 for ever.

Necrosis Carnex, one of my favorite undead. I use them constantly.

I'll check out the Black Sand!

[Fouredged Sword]

I like to use the alternate zombie template for dragons. Silver dragons become particularly nasty because that paralyzing breath attack will sweep the floor of non-undead. They are tough and strong, with a fly speed and special breath attack, all at HD to HD, so easy on the control pool.

[Ruethgar]

With 3rd party there is always Beast Master fighter combined with the Druid Reaver option. Gets you a human skeletal warrior as an AC based on character level instead of class. If you want to push that further wild cohort it too and the Beast Master class, nice lovely perm undead that scale a bit with you. Of course you will want a major vampiric bloodline for the +3 beast master level.

But apart from that I don't really have experience with undead, it is just a thought if you have two feats and eleven levels to spare.

[Dusk Eclipse]

By the way Corpse and Bone creatures (BoVD) are skeletons and zombies +++++, so try to create them when possible. I think they are available with Create Undead (or possibly the Greater version).

[Meowmasterish]

Use the spell Haunt Shift, only after creating an army of undead. Shift them into statues of Adamantine. You now have an unstoppable army of adamantine soldiers who obey you with hesitation.
You can also use the spell Animate Dread Warrior to animate yourself a small army of Necromancers, who create their own small armies who still serve you.
You can also make yourself a Necropolitan, which is a template to your necromancer that makes him undead. Take a level in the prestige class Tainted Scholar. This allows you to hoard taint and use taint as a base for your bonus spells per day. Also, as an undead, you take no negative effects from taint.

[Cikomyr]

I have a personal preference for Ghouls when it comes to Undead Underlings. Fast, relatively discreet, and they spread like a plague.

As for how to buff them up.. sorry. I haven't studied the question long enough

[Segev]

I have a personal preference for Ghouls when it comes to Undead Underlings. Fast, relatively discreet, and they spread like a plague.

As for how to buff them up.. sorry. I haven't studied the question long enough
I suggest wights over ghouls. Ghouls do not control their spawn; wights do.

[Cikomyr]

I suggest wights over ghouls. Ghouls do not control their spawn; wights do.

Ghouls paralyze. :smallbiggrin:

Boost a group of ghouls to surprise-attack a tribe of Ogres, and then charge with Ogre Ghouls into the frey :smallcool:

[OldTrees1]

The majority of your undead will not be controlled by the animate dead spell. As such the Deathbound Domain is useless. You should control your undead with Chain Command Undead. It is a much larger pool and grows faster than level^3.

The majority of you minions should not be animated by you. They should be animated by your Corpse Crafter Necromancer 1 / Dread Necromancer 8 apprentice.

You minion can give you minions up to +8hp/HD via Desecrate, Necromancer 1, Dread Necromancer 8 and a Deadwalker’s Ring.

Warning: Eventually you will face another necromancer. If an undead is controlled by 2 masters, the masters make CHA checks. (Multiple Mental Control Effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm)) This is yet another reason Dread Necromancers are the best minion mancers.


By the way Corpse and Bone creatures (BoVD) are skeletons and zombies +++++, so try to create them when possible. I think they are available with Create Undead (or possibly the Greater version).

Create Undead does not give you control. So those Corpse and Bone creatures eat into your Rebuke Undead control pool. You can do much better with that pool than skeleton+++++s.

[Silva Stormrage]

Command undead often gets overlooked for undead minionmancy. And by that I mean the spell not rebuke (Which is also overlooked see below). The spell instantly no save takes control of a mindless undead. If you use the spell on it it is under your control for 1 day/level.

If you have the chain metamagic (Or buy a lesser rod) you can get a cl undead under your control for a cl number of days. This is massive, even clerics and wizards can get undead armies the size of DN's with this technique. Remember that the spell can be dispelled so it IS worse than normal animate dead control. Pick up some items that boost CL or dispel checks when casting the spell. Ring of enduring arcana should help with that.


Now Rebuke/Command Undead also often gets overlooked as useless except for commanding a shadow or wight to get a mass undead apocalypse. However, that is not its most useful purpose. The first thing to note is that undead have massive amounts of HD and it is hard to get your level to be twice their HD. However, you can negate this with items.

Phylactery of Undead Turning (Items that benefit turning benefits rebuking as well), Rod of the netherworld + sacred armor and shields. These can boost your level and allow you to control more and more powerful undead. The two major items though are rod of defiance and lyre of restful soul. Both of these items reduce turn resistance by 4. Thus if you use these items on an undead with 20 HD it gets treated as an undead with 12 HD. That reduces you needing a 40 rebuke level to command it to a 24 level.

Next note on Rebuke/Command Undead is that you aren't going to try to command bruisers. Thats what animate dead is for. Instead you should try to animate things with class levels, wizards, clerics, etc. Animate them as bone creatures, these gain no turn resistance and keep their class levels. Lets say you are a level 8 DN who is just starting to animate undeaad. Getting create undead from a scroll or something you animate a mini boss you just killed a level 10 wizard. Using both the lyre and the rod his 10 HD becomes treated as a whooping 2 HD, you can't fail to rebuke it. You could have 4 more of them in your rebuke undead pool.

Edit: Sigh slightly swordsage'd

[ArendK]

If you have the chain metamagic (Or buy a lesser rod) you can get a cl undead under your control for a cl number of days. This is massive, even clerics and wizards can get undead armies the size of DN's with this technique. Remember that the spell can be dispelled so it IS worse than normal animate dead control. Pick up some items that boost CL or dispel checks when casting the spell. Ring of enduring arcana should help with that.


Please...tell me there is a way to do this via Pathfinder only rules...

[Fouredged Sword]

Unchanged in the SRD

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/command-undead

No chain spell though, but you can get extend for 2Xday CL and burn enough spell slots each day to get a rather nice horde.

[OldTrees1]

Please...tell me there is a way to do this via Pathfinder only rules...

Feats:
Widen Spell => Chain Spell (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/super-genius-games/metamagic-feats/chain-spell-metamagic)
Magical Lineage and/or Spell Perfection (get Extend Spell if you get both)


Spells:
Command Undead (Sor/Wiz 2)

[Cikomyr]

Please...tell me there is a way to do this via Pathfinder only rules...

Technically, any spell that doesn't have direct damage can be heavily abused via the Chain metamagic feat or Rod.

My favourite is Enervation; 1d4 negative level drain? not halved.
Split Ray also counts

[ArendK]

Well that bones; I was really hoping it wasn't 3rd party.

But even so, that is pretty cool.

[Silva Stormrage]

Technically, any spell that doesn't have direct damage can be heavily abused via the Chain metamagic feat or Rod.

My favourite is Enervation; 1d4 negative level drain? not halved.
Split Ray also counts

Enervation can't be chained as it doesn't have a single target it is a ray effect. Sorry to break it to you :smalltongue: But ya chain can get ridiculous some times.

[Cikomyr]

Enervation can't be chained as it doesn't have a single target it is a ray effect. Sorry to break it to you :smalltongue: But ya chain can get ridiculous some times.

Split ray it then :-P

[sambouchah]

What other good Necromancy items are there that boost the undead you control?

Also thanks for all the replies everyone! It's been super helpful so far!

[Cikomyr]

What other good Necromancy items are there that boost the undead you control?

Also thanks for all the replies everyone! It's been super helpful so far!

Have your undeads carry around a desecreated Good Altar

[OldTrees1]

There are rings of Desecrate and Unholy Aura
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x

[sambouchah]

Have your undeads carry around a desecreated Good Altar

I designed an alter for them to carry that is Desecrated and has some other abilities(Constant Fear, Finger of Death if it's ever stolen, etc) that my DM has okay'd.

[ArendK]

One I'm building; depending on the nature of your necromancer (admittedly, this idea is not mine, much as I wish could claim it).

-Find Purple Worm or something similar.
-Kill it.
-Zombify (Pathfinder doesn't double these guys HD, so it's doable even at mid-level).
-If at all possible, apply Fast template to said gigantic monstrosity.
-Since beasty is now undead and now longer has a churning stomach of death, it is now essentially a giant Armored Zombie Carrier. Cram those guys in like sardines, not like they can complain. Whether through Magic Jar or my preference, a necklace of adaptation and a way to be affected as undead for negative energy effects while riding inside, take control of Yon Terrible Beasty. Fast Zombie still has Burrow...

VOILA! Emerge, dump out some of the horde, and move on if not wrecking destruction. Even if you have more HD than you can control, if you show up as undead, none of the mindless brutes are going to care.

[ArendK]

Carrying a Darkskull or imbedding it on said Beasties head works too,.

[Silva Stormrage]

What other good Necromancy items are there that boost the undead you control?

Also thanks for all the replies everyone! It's been super helpful so far!

Rod of Undead Mastery doubles the amount of undead you can control. Its unclear if it works with rebuke but many DM's rule that it does work.

Undead Leadership + Any items that boost leadership work as well.

[Know(Nothing)]

Stitched-flesh Familiar + Spellstitched with Animate Dead for some cost-free minions.

[Cikomyr]

Obviously, Undead Leadership has to be taken. You can score a very sexy Death Knight cohort

[Wookie-ranger]

cut for length

aaand I just found the subway for my undead metropolis. :smallamused:


Here is something that I pulled of a while ago:
Be a DN, Necropolitan with a few (4-6) undead wolfs;
Have a potable hole on your chest (so you can take things in and out);
Store my wolfs inside in;
Command them to come out and attack all enemies when i say "May death come forth and slay the!"
...
In battle, get hit in melee,
Feint/bluff that you are mortally wounded and fall to the floor.
Yell with your 'last words':"May death come forth and slay the!"
get bonus to intimidate checks the size of undermountain.
:smallbiggrin:
Good times, good times

[Cikomyr]

I want to know. Has anyone ever made a template for Ghouls?

[Segev]

I want to know. Has anyone ever made a template for Ghouls?

Gravetouched Ghoul, in Libris Mortis.

[OldTrees1]

I want to know. Has anyone ever made a template for Ghouls?

Gravetouched Ghoul. Libris Mortis IIRC (ninja'd)

[sambouchah]

I want to know. Has anyone ever made a template for Ghouls?

+1 to this

EDIT: Didn't even realize my thread had a second page:smalltongue:

[Cikomyr]

Darn. So all of a Ghoul's ability is Cha-based..

messa need powerful +cha monsters so I can ghoulify :smallcool:

edit: ooooohh... Ghoul Harpy

[Silva Stormrage]

Dragon Magazine Compendium has the ghoulish template along with a ghastly template as well.

[Cikomyr]

Yhea, I'll go with Ogre Mage Ghouls and Harpy Ghouls..

One for the flying factor, the other for the SR, Fast Healing, Natural Armor, Reach and all these other nifty stuff.

[ArendK]

Libris Mortis is just full of evil Win. It's great.

If we're digging out of that for in general evil undead tidbits;

Multiple Bleakborn...god are they amazing.

Corpse Crafter and that infamous line of feats.

the necrotic bombs and stuff that goes ka-blooey with negative energy; nothing says "dual benefit" like a fireball dropped on a melee brawl with skeletons that saps life out of the good guys and heals the skeletons...


aaand I just found the subway for my undead metropolis.

Alternatively, Krakens make fun zombies and a watery version of this same trick. admittedly, you essentially NEED the fast zombie build to make it worth while, but in the end, who can complain with 8 attacks per round from a single zombie?

[Cikomyr]

Libris Mortis is just full of evil Win. It's great.

If we're digging out of that for in general evil undead tidbits;

Multiple Bleakborn...god are they amazing.

Corpse Crafter and that infamous line of feats.

the necrotic bombs and stuff that goes ka-blooey with negative energy; nothing says "dual benefit" like a fireball dropped on a melee brawl with skeletons that saps life out of the good guys and heals the skeletons...



Alternatively, Krakens make fun zombies and a watery version of this same trick. admittedly, you essentially NEED the fast zombie build to make it worth while, but in the end, who can complain with 8 attacks per round from a single zombie?

Again, why go Zombie Kraken when you can go Ghoul Kraken, with paralysis poison at each of these attacks?

[ArendK]

Ghouls have a mind; being underwater with a pissed off undead kraken with paralytic touch if I lose control does NOT sound like my idea of a good time....

[sambouchah]

Ghouls have a mind; being underwater with a pissed off undead kraken with paralytic touch if I lose control does NOT sound like my idea of a good time....

LOL

I do like Ghouls but I'm afraid of them for the same reason Arend is afraid of the Kraken:smalltongue:

[Silva Stormrage]

Again, why go Zombie Kraken when you can go Ghoul Kraken, with paralysis poison at each of these attacks?

Manly because they are hard to control? There is no way of actually getting them for normal pc's? A Kracken has 20 HD with the +2 turn resistance from gravetouched or ghoulish template its effective 22 HD. Even with lyre and rod its 14 HD. WHich means you need to be pretty high level or have a ton of items to actually command that thing.

[Cikomyr]

Manly because they are hard to control? There is no way of actually getting them for normal pc's? A Kracken has 20 HD with the +2 turn resistance from gravetouched or ghoulish template its effective 22 HD. Even with lyre and rod its 14 HD. WHich means you need to be pretty high level or have a ton of items to actually command that thing.

There are other means of control :smallcool:

Lay a trail of floating corpses so they eat their way until the target you wish it to destroy.

Or make it attack a Sahuagin community, and end up with an army of Sahuagin Lacedons

[Silva Stormrage]

There are other means of control :smallcool:

Lay a trail of floating corpses so they eat their way until the target you wish it to destroy.

Or make it attack a Sahuagin community, and end up with an army of Sahuagin Lacedons

Those are reaaaaallly not that firm ways of control. The ghoul is intelligent. Why wouldn't it just kill you then go on and eat the corpses.

I will take my 100% control no questions asked any day :smalltongue:

[ArendK]

Unless the entire point is wanton, indiscriminate destruction (nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned), then yes, just leaving a ghoulified Kraken running around the ocean is a bad thing.

I've played necromancers before (and man is it hard to play a actual corpse-raising necromancer with a fairly good alignment). We were in Eberron and I'd actually rolled fairly well for him. ok physical stats for a mage, decent charisma, and Intelligence out the wazoo...

So I made a official Karrnathi Corpse Collector who was tired of just raising humans and the like, and he was among the nicest characters in the game (even compared to a paladin in the party, which was a great role-playing experience).

The player kind of figured with "Karrnathi" and "mage" in the same sentence, but in character we had a blast playing it off. Once combat began, if I needed my minions, I'd drop my portable hole on the ground and let them crawl out. I kept them well equipped and liberal doses of alchemical regents ensured that they stayed that way and not smelling like a rotting death band. Once combat ended, I used a wand of silent image that the GM gave us thinking we were going to sell; another creature/enemy for the paladin to charge while everyone crawled back into the hole. If he asked, the summon spell wore off.

Eventually, we got rid of the paladin, so we started having a little more recklessness with my undead raising antics. We were traveling and lost our horses to an ambush. Having no desire to haul the cart around (the fighter-type had a crap load of weapons he didn't want to carry or sell, and there wasn't room in the portable hole), so we used skeleton horses with a fair amount of leather armor and adornments. Travel times were drastically reduced (horses running at full speed that never tire? YES!)

Eventually, myself, the cleric, and the rogue never left the cart when traveling. It became the all purpose "battle-wagon" if something happened.

[sambouchah]

Unless the entire point is wanton, indiscriminate destruction (nothing wrong with that as far as I'm concerned), then yes, just leaving a ghoulified Kraken running around the ocean is a bad thing.

I've played necromancers before (and man is it hard to play a actual corpse-raising necromancer with a fairly good alignment). We were in Eberron and I'd actually rolled fairly well for him. ok physical stats for a mage, decent charisma, and Intelligence out the wazoo...

So I made a official Karrnathi Corpse Collector who was tired of just raising humans and the like, and he was among the nicest characters in the game (even compared to a paladin in the party, which was a great role-playing experience).

The player kind of figured with "Karrnathi" and "mage" in the same sentence, but in character we had a blast playing it off. Once combat began, if I needed my minions, I'd drop my portable hole on the ground and let them crawl out. I kept them well equipped and liberal doses of alchemical regents ensured that they stayed that way and not smelling like a rotting death band. Once combat ended, I used a wand of silent image that the GM gave us thinking we were going to sell; another creature/enemy for the paladin to charge while everyone crawled back into the hole. If he asked, the summon spell wore off.

Eventually, we got rid of the paladin, so we started having a little more recklessness with my undead raising antics. We were traveling and lost our horses to an ambush. Having no desire to haul the cart around (the fighter-type had a crap load of weapons he didn't want to carry or sell, and there wasn't room in the portable hole), so we used skeleton horses with a fair amount of leather armor and adornments. Travel times were drastically reduced (horses running at full speed that never tire? YES!)

Eventually, myself, the cleric, and the rogue never left the cart when traveling. It became the all purpose "battle-wagon" if something happened.

Man, that is an awesome character!

My current wizard Enlarges himself and jumps off our wagon to brutalize enemies.

What is everyone's favorite type of Undead other than Ghouls?

[Segev]

Depends on your purpose. Slaymates are a personal favorite for being so adorable (okay, only if you don't think about the ramifications of their existence too much, but still), and they are great for your metamagic needs.

[OldTrees1]

What is everyone's favorite type of Undead other than Ghouls?

Ghost 1 _Race_ _Class Levels_.
My incorporeal scouts

[sambouchah]

My favorite is Necrosis Carnex, I love that negative energy!

[ArendK]

Bleakborn and liches (as a DM)

As a player, I prefer wielding the mindless undead (I generally manage my own book-keeping pretty well being anal-retentive, and knowing how minions can slow down fights, I keep it to a few big bruisers and have my stuff planned out in as much advance as I can.

[drack]

Oh my, there are so many fun undeads out there. Anywho on the purpleworm thing it reminds me of an old character I had who reanimated a dead leviathan, and used sculpt stone to make it into a pirate ship (and to hold air in it) of which he was the captain. Some players chipped in for landlord with him to get nifty extras on it, but it was a giant undead pirate ship under the sea, and the deck could open as a massive mouth in order to eat things. :smallamused:

Lets see, what else. Skeletal wolves are great for battlefield control, running down enemies and such.

I love spamming skeletal frogs/zombie ravens every now and again. Cheep in terms of HD cost, but plenty enough to annoy/distract enemies, and to obstruct motion or maintain that tactical advantage that comes with flight. Still zombie maneuverability sucks, so they can't really turn much once they start flying....

also a necrosis carnex fan, though I often keep the number of them down since it's more a utility undead in my books. Ah, and multiheaded dragon zombies have fun flight/breath for when you're calling in a fire strike on a town...

[Silva Stormrage]

Zombie Dragons, Zombie Dragons are easily the most awesome type of zombies :smalltongue:

[drack]

depends on level/resources. at higher level I agree.