Erfworld 21

[Wallyz]

Schlemiel elves. Hee-hee.

I enjoyed it, and it shows that Ansom is a competent, but not excellent strategist. Also, nice foreshadowing on the "difficult to hold together" alliance

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

Gah, you beat me to it!

Anybody notice Link in the last panel?

[Rex Idiotarum]

Is that The Arkenplier I see?

[reorith]

8 varieties of elves. we know of 5, what do you think the last 3 are?

[Setra]

Maybe one could be "Not-so-bright Elves" (ie. Dark Elves)

[teratorn]

Epic, this is awesome. And those shady elves, they look as developed as Wanda. Wow! Still lost in the details...

[Wallyz]

Gah, you beat me to it!

Anybody notice Link in the last panel?

Good catch. Eager Elf indeed. Poor Stanley's in trouble if he's up against the Linkster.

[Setra]

Good catch. Eager Elf indeed. Poor Stanley's The entire army's in trouble if she's they're up against the Linkster.
There, I fixed it.

Actually I didn't notice Link til someone else mentioned him.


Why Ansom WANTS "Luckless Elves" and "Schlemiel Elves" in his army is a mystery to me. Particularly the latter. If the name is accurate, wouldn't he be better off without them? (Or is he just trying to kill 'em off? :)

And yes, I think those might possibly be the Arkenpliers.
Well if the name is charactaristic, who are the enemy arrows going to hit first?

[The Shadow]

Why Ansom WANTS "Luckless Elves" and "Schlemiel Elves" in his army is a mystery to me. Particularly the latter. If the name is accurate, wouldn't he be better off without them? (Or is he just trying to kill 'em off? :)

And yes, I think those might possibly be the Arkenpliers.

[Wallyz]

8 varieties of elves. we know of 5, what do you think the last 3 are?
Lofty (Erf 8)
Shady (Erf 8&21)
Tardy (Erf 8, maybe not counted in the 8)
Eager (21)
Woodsy (21)
Schlemiel (21)
Luckless (21)

Leaves just 1 or 2

[silentknight]

Baker elves aka Keebler.
Snow elves aka Santa's elves.

[Neofite]

Gah, you beat me to it!

Anybody notice Link in the last panel?

Yeah, i saw him!!

[talonos]

Why is Link the Eager elf?

[TinSoldier]

Huh. I didn't even notice the pliers. I had to look about three times after seeing them mentioned on the board.

[Neofite]

Man i can't wait for the battle to start!!

[Setra]

Huh. I didn't even notice the pliers. I had to look about three times after seeing them mentioned on the board.
They were wearing active camo
Man i can't wait for the battle to start!!
Agreed, what I really want to see is Parson's tactical ability.

[RyanJ]

Yeah, I'd say the forces of Stanley the Tool are outnumbered at least 25 to 1. Can't wait to see how this battle plays out and what Parson comes up with.

[teratorn]

Man i can't wait for the battle to start!!

Same thing here, and after seeing this I think Parson is in for a treat. The guy will drool with this set, although he doesn't have much time to get things going.

By the way, can someone explain the meaning of Schlemiel?

[Setra]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Schlemiel%20

[Uzraid]

The Luckless Elves might change their luck if they let their Soul Glo!

[Neofite]

yeah, those first 3 waves of elves are the suicide troops :)

[RusVal]

Gah, you beat me to it!

Anybody notice Link in the last panel?

Yep, first time through when I saw his sword resembling the Master Sword.

Maybe he's an Eager Elf because he's eager to get into the fight?

Anyone else wonder if the things Ansom is worried about, the things Parson will do in the defense of the city?
-Hold forces back behind the defenses?
-Not bite the fient with the Marbits?
-Focus firepower on the attackers before they can spread out around the city?

[aanimo]

Schlemiel elves! Now all we need are Shlimazl Kobolds :P

[LCR]

Hm, I don't get the Schlemiel-Elves joke. Something I ought to know?

[Drascin]

Interesting. The plan's not bad, and the feint would have certainly caused problems to a less skilled commander. Probably Parson will manage to see right through it, though.

...If that Link is only an imitator, of course. If he's the real Link, I'm afraid a single fortress armed to the teeth is not going to be nearly enough :P.

[motorfirebox]

hahaha, eight different kinds of elves. why is it that in every fantasy setting, elves get a million subraces while the rest of the world gets maybe one or two each?

[Looppie]

Hah... awesome... more tools, and more elves... also gotta love people keeping track of them... lofty is still the greatest though

[Kalir]

hahaha, eight different kinds of elves. why is it that in every fantasy setting, elves get a million subraces while the rest of the world gets maybe one or two each?

I don't know, but every day because of this I wish I'd made my main persona a gnome instead.

[Sir_Faust]

It's same way with the mages. Their are around a thousand kinds of mages. What kinds of humans can there be?

[Vontango]

I look forward to seeing this go horribly wrong

[Rocheforte]

Why are the Shady Elves fighting with the Forces of Cuteness and Plush? Those guys need to serve the Tool.

[Om]

Why Ansom WANTS "Luckless Elves" and "Schlemiel Elves" in his army is a mystery to me. Particularly the latter. If the name is accurate, wouldn't he be better off without them? (Or is he just trying to kill 'em off? :)That's what I'm wondering. Either he's a very good general, and wants to use the worst troops as canon fodder, or he's a very poor general and is trusting the breakthrough to the worst troops :smallconfused:

[Minchandre]

That's what I'm wondering. Either he's a very good general, and wants to use the worst troops as canon fodder, or he's a very poor general and is trusting the breakthrough to the worst troops :smallconfused:

Considering how excited the elves are, I think it's pretty clear that he's just trying to use 'em as fodder. Remember, the "Forlorn Hope" tends to have casualties in the 95-100% range.

[Shakalooloo_Doom]

That's what I'm wondering. Either he's a very good general, and wants to use the worst troops as canon fodder, or he's a very poor general and is trusting the breakthrough to the worst troops :smallconfused:

He's Rimmer in Waxworld.:smalltongue:

Awesome all around, but I hate it when people mis-spell siege! Gah!

[Raveler1]

It's same way with the mages. Their are around a thousand kinds of mages. What kinds of humans can there be?

Well, I can think of quite a few off-hand - there's ways of dividing humans by nationality, city, race, gender, ability, and so on and so on. As far as assigning game significance to them, all it takes is a good/bad GM (depends on how stereotypically the GM modifies the info, of course).

I'm working on putting together a bronze-age campaign based solely around humans, but with different cities and occupations taking the place of race and class. Its tough - but it counters the arguments of there not being different "types" of humans.

[Tyrmadris]

Actually, it appears as if Ansom is merely a passable general, not necessarily a good one. There are several flaws in his plan that are going to cause him grief.

He openly states that all the armies are not his own, but other 'allies' who are working together only because of a common foe. This indicates that the longer the siege takes, the more and more likely the individual sides will get frustrated and begin dropping out.

Tunnel warfare is a nasty thing. He's also counting on Stanely (joke's on him, the Tool's not in charge anymore) to send Undead (Uncroaked) troops down there, for some odd reason (unless Uncroaked retain their intelligence, they need to be commanded, and few will attempt to command masses of mindless undead inside cramped little tunnels... doesn't work good). The Marbits will be isolated from any other allies. It wouldn't surprise me if the tunnels, being made by 'gobwins', are trapped to the gills or set with some other means of battlefield manipulation (collapsable tunnel entrances to trap invading armies, etc). I don't see him getting much of an edge here, though, even if it does work. Chances are Lord Hamster will simply have tunnels collapsed, flood the areas with some sort of hazardous substance (boiling oil, burning oil, toxic gas, etc), dig out the bodies, and have a mass army of uncroaked midgets. Needless to say, the marbits of the 'outside world' (not part of this alliance) will probably not remain Ansom's allies for long.

Wasting time surrounding the city is a bad idea. Even worse if they don't manage to take the tunnels, since they've just cleverly spread themselves out while simultaneously surrounding themselves. He's content with only making a single breach in the walls, which will end up making that area a bottleneck kill-zone for his own troops (making multiple breaches or just swiftly isolating the city and siege-ing it into non-existance is a more effective plan).

There's more, but I've got work to do. Just some ideas there to toss about.

[Toric]

Chances are Lord Hamster will simply have tunnels collapsed, flood the areas with some sort of hazardous substance (boiling oil, burning oil, toxic gas, etc), dig out the bodies, and have a mass army of uncroaked midgets.
I was thinking milk, actually. They'd still drown, but it would be a more fitting end.

So Ansom has some holes in his plan. Now all we need to do is wait and see how Parson exploits them.

Also, I like how the Shady Elves are in gothwear. But I have no idea what the woodsy elf is supposed to be.

[WarriorTribble]

Nice ass shot. The comic wasn't bad either.

[Lord Zentei]

hahaha, eight different kinds of elves. why is it that in every fantasy setting, elves get a million subraces while the rest of the world gets maybe one or two each?

Something to do with their popularity, presumably. :smallwink:

And presumably in part because of Tolkein, with his detailing of the sundry tribes and kingdoms of Middle-Earth Elves in the Silmarillion. Everyone else just jumps on that bandwagon.

To be fair, though, goblinoids tend to get a lot of subraces, if you classify "goblinoid" on the same level as "elf".

[jami]

Nice ass shot. The comic wasn't bad either.

Gotta give the ladies some beefcake too. Don't want them to feel left out. :smallamused:

[kten]

So a city is going to be assaulted in both the comics and always an hobgoblin/undead army is present: do you think the Giant and Rob Balder are cooperating? :smallbiggrin:

[Om]

Considering how excited the elves are, I think it's pretty clear that he's just trying to use 'em as fodder. Remember, the "Forlorn Hope" tends to have casualties in the 95-100% range.Its was the Eager Elf that threw me off but I think you're 100% right there. Maybe Ansom is smarter than I give him credit for.


So a city is going to be assaulted in both the comics and always an hobgoblin/undead army is present: do you think the Giant and Rob Balder are cooperating?We'll see Roy and Co. waiting around in Azure City wondering where the massive army has vanished to :smallsmile:

[Aimbot]

This should be a relatively easy fight for the tool of the Tool, for reason's already mentioned.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Ah yes. "All that is noble and decent" up against everything that is "vile and unholy, not to mention unspeakable."

Have I mentioned that I find overly cute marbits, peeps, stuffed animals and elves to be vile and unholy? All I can say is, "Go Parson! Bring on the insulin because it is too dang sweet around here!"

Love the Elvish shock troops, particularly the Eager Elves. But can anyone take pity on a poor pop culture deprived librarian and tell me who the Linkster is supposed to be?

Hmm

[innovan]

Milk
Or toasted marshmellows. Another yummy food!


eight elves
Probably because there were seven dwarfs:
Bashful, Doc, Dopey, Grumpy, Happy, Sleepy and Sneezy.


going to be a great fight

I'd still abandon the position. If all the forces in the world are concentrated here, it's a great time to go taking over cities in the enemy's unprotected rear.

Also, when is the Magic Kingdom going to come in and collect payment? Haulling 250,000 smuckers down the only road out of the castle in front of the very armies that had came to loot that cash would cause some major defections, and possibly some highway robbery!

[Om]

Love the Elvish shock troops, particularly the Eager Elves. But can anyone take pity on a poor pop culture deprived librarian and tell me who the Linkster is supposed to be?Some guy from that series... what's it called.... on the Nintendo. Zelda, that's it. Apparently its pretty popular.

[SandroTheMaster]

In my country people would get lost by this "linkster" thing, since everyone is absolutely sure the Elf is named "Zelda"...

How many times did I hear... "The Zelda saves the princess"... sigh... There are idiots in all countries it seems.

[Darth Paradox]

* Yes, those are definitely the Arkenpliers. They're rendered, instead of drawn. (They're clearly not of this world.)
* Link appearance == awesome.
* The Shady Elf is a goth girl. I once again wonder whether Rob is drawing on his music for inspiration...
* Ansom's strategy is problematic. If the entire army will be spread around the city walls looking for a breach, how will the Eager Elves be the first ones in? What if the breach occurs on the other side of the city?

I think what this is going to end up being is an easy first battle for Parson, as an introduction to the game.

[Runolfr]

Is that The Arkenplier I see?

What frame? (since I see nothing of the sort)

[Erk]

My first thought was "Aah, so perhaps Ansom is not an altruist of any sort. He's got the Arkenpliers." How do we know he didn't actually start this little skirmish? I suspect he is after the Arkenhammer.

With enough time to get to know the fortifications, Parson should be able to wipe out the enemy quickly and soundly. He's already got the advantage of a secure fortress. If he has any brains he will draw his outside troops back in, not have them defend the forest road... why defend the forest road and lose on a 2:1 ratio at best, when he could defend from safely inside the walls and crack down faster on the enemy? We'll see though. I am now phenomenally curious how this is going to play out, but it doesn't look to me like Stanley needed a genius... just a competent warlord. Hell, I feel like I would have a decent chance in this fight.

[Runolfr]

What frame? (since I see nothing of the sort)

Never mind. After further inspection of Frame 1, I've recognized what we're discussing.

[Hushdawg]

Since so many people have asked:

The term "Schlemiel" is a Yiddish expression that basically means someone who lacks common sense, a simpleton.

Google works you know....

[Jorkens]

My first thought was "Aah, so perhaps Ansom is not an altruist of any sort. He's got the Arkenpliers." How do we know he didn't actually start this little skirmish? I suspect he is after the Arkenhammer.

With enough time to get to know the fortifications, Parson should be able to wipe out the enemy quickly and soundly. He's already got the advantage of a secure fortress. If he has any brains he will draw his outside troops back in, not have them defend the forest road... why defend the forest road and lose on a 2:1 ratio at best, when he could defend from safely inside the walls and crack down faster on the enemy? We'll see though. I am now phenomenally curious how this is going to play out, but it doesn't look to me like Stanley needed a genius... just a competent warlord. Hell, I feel like I would have a decent chance in this fight.
Bear in mind that a 25:1 numerical advantage will cover at least a few defects in a plan. I think Parson's still got a fight on his hands.

Is anyone else wondering whether Ansom had a good reason to use the Luckless Elves as suicide troops or whether it's part of their bad luck to be the ones chosen?

Oh, and a bit of a timestream question: given that it was going to take two turns for the elves to show up, shouldn't we have seen some more of what happened to Jillian by now? And how long does it look like a turn is, on the current evidence?

[Ave]

Seige is probably a typo, as it was spelt correctly later.
The pliers really seem offworld, but the arkenhammer was not so.

[teratorn]

Google works you know....

Must... resist... urge to flame... The sad thing about this is that someone else already had answered it. Oh well, I suppose I had to put someone in my ignore list.

Google can be misleading with these kind of references. It is always better to have someone who uses the expression to elaborate on it.

[Om]

The pliers really seem offworld, but the arkenhammer was not so.It does actually when you look back at it. I'd missed it at first but now that I've paid attention its clearly pre-rendered.

[Gamebird]

Cool. I liked it. Especially "Luckless" and "Schlemiel".

The butt shot was nice, but not full on. It's like seeing half a breast - not nearly so satisfying as the whole thing.

[Mr Teufel]

Nice ass shot. The comic wasn't bad either.

I'm glad someone else saw that too. Wanda's not the only one gettin' the love.:smallbiggrin:

[Hart av Srednak]

This page makes me start to wait for The Battle. Marbits vs Gobwins - kung fu :smallbiggrin:


8 varieties of elves. we know of 5, what do you think the last 3 are?

Atleast 9 varietes of Elves. Tardy elves aren't part of alliance anymore: comic#8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0008.html)
Unless ofcourse the plans have changed.. but he did call off alliance with them.

[ImpFireball]

Why Ansom WANTS "Luckless Elves" and "Schlemiel Elves" in his army is a mystery to me. Particularly the latter. If the name is accurate, wouldn't he be better off without them? (Or is he just trying to kill 'em off? :)


It's called cannon fodder, man. The guy's an evil bastard, despite the fact that he appears with a sign saying 'good guys' and 'forces of light, justice, etc. etc.'

Personally, I'd like to see Stanley win this one. I also hate labels.

EDIT: Reading the other posts, the guy's apparently also a poor bastard. I can't really think right now, so that's why I didn't figure this myself. :P

[Ikkitosen]

Good catch on the Arkenpliers. I spotted Link though :)

Great timing on the scene switch btw Rob/Jamie.

[Hushdawg]

Must... resist... urge to flame... The sad thing about this is that someone else already had answered it. Oh well, I suppose I had to put someone in my ignore list.

Google can be misleading with these kind of references. It is always better to have someone who uses the expression to elaborate on it.

Sorry; maybe my comment was a bit brisk.

But honestly, I get sick of seeing dozens of posts asking a question about something that can be answered by a quick google search.

Or worse yet, seeing that someone had posted a link to the definition and people continued to ask the question because it hadn't been fully spelled out for them.

It just gets under my skin when people don't make any effort to find information on thier own.

[Starla]

Is that The Arkenplier I see?
I am glad you pointed that out. I thought since everyone was going ga-ga over Wanda's chest that the artist was going to the opposite end to give us a good view of Ansom's tush. Glad there was more point to that position than what I thought.

[Skydiving_Ninja]

Good job with the Link the eager elf cameo. This ought to be an interesting battle.

[Starla]

Sorry; maybe my comment was a bit brisk.

But honestly, I get sick of seeing dozens of posts asking a question about something that can be answered by a quick google search.

Or worse yet, seeing that someone had posted a link to the definition and people continued to ask the question because it hadn't been fully spelled out for them.

It just gets under my skin when people don't make any effort to find information on thier own.

I can understand both of your frustrations but I would point out that it is much faster to post for a lot of people, myself included, and then browse through the comments, because otherwise I would never get around to voicing my opinion/question/response if I read first.

Edit: to prove my point I posted my response to the comic and by the time I finished reading the first 3 pages I had to log back in to post again.

[DarkLightDragon]

I noticed Link the first time (and laughed), but it wasn't until the second time that I noticed the Arkenpliers. That comic was great!

[EntilZha]

Shady Elves...Rowrrrrrrrrrrrr!!

[slayerx]

He openly states that all the armies are not his own, but other 'allies' who are working together only because of a common foe. This indicates that the longer the siege takes, the more and more likely the individual sides will get frustrated and begin dropping out.

Well this is not something ansom could avoid... he could not fight this battle along and thus need the aid of allies... in war, leader's always seek out allies to help them fight. without the aid of those allies, Ansom's forces alone might not be enough to take the capitol

And it's a good thing that he openly stated that fact at the begining of his speech. It's kind of a sign of respect to the troops in that he reconizes that they do not belong to him... If he did not point this out and was ordering them around, the troops, who already know he's not their true leader, might see him as arrogant, loose respect for him, and thus may increase the chances of them dropping out of the fight



Tunnel warfare is a nasty thing. He's also counting on Stanely (joke's on him, the Tool's not in charge anymore) to send Undead (Uncroaked) troops down there, for some odd reason (unless Uncroaked retain their intelligence, they need to be commanded, and few will attempt to command masses of mindless undead inside cramped little tunnels... doesn't work good). The Marbits will be isolated from any other allies. It wouldn't surprise me if the tunnels, being made by 'gobwins', are trapped to the gills or set with some other means of battlefield manipulation (collapsable tunnel entrances to trap invading armies, etc). I don't see him getting much of an edge here, though, even if it does work. Chances are Lord Hamster will simply have tunnels collapsed, flood the areas with some sort of hazardous substance (boiling oil, burning oil, toxic gas, etc), dig out the bodies, and have a mass army of uncroaked midgets. Needless to say, the marbits of the 'outside world' (not part of this alliance) will probably not remain Ansom's allies for long.

Ansom openly stated that the tunnel attack was a feint, a distraction. Ansom isn't planing to win anything from those tunnels, he's just trying to lure stanley's defences down to those tunnels... the more men that are sent down there, the less troops there are to defend the walls. Not to mention, its possible that those tunnels could be used to send out troops, and thus he slows down the chances of them sending an offensive force through them ...and by openly stating that this part of the plan is a distraction, the Marbits know full well what the hell their gonna be getting into and except it...



Wasting time surrounding the city is a bad idea. Even worse if they don't manage to take the tunnels, since they've just cleverly spread themselves out while simultaneously surrounding themselves. He's content with only making a single breach in the walls, which will end up making that area a bottleneck kill-zone for his own troops (making multiple breaches or just swiftly isolating the city and siege-ing it into non-existance is a more effective plan).

Well surrounding has two purposes... not only can they find the weakest part of the wall to make a quickbreach, but they also force the enemy on a full defensive... if the the city wasn't surrounded then Stanley's non-fliers could exit out of the side they are not being attacked from and stike the allied forces from the side going on the offensive...

Not to mention that the allied forces aren't the only ones being spread out... Stanley's forces aswell will need to spread out along the wall in order to defend themselves, and considering the superior numbers of the allied forces, the allied forces can afford to spread out alot where as stanley's forces can not

The bottleneck is indeed rather troublesome... but with 25:1 ratio it shouldn't be too much of a problem to deal with. this is exactly why he's sending in cannon fodder in first, by the time they are killed off the allied forces will have forced their way inside. i agree he should try to pop another opening somewhere to reduce the problem, but he seems to want a quick victory and it would thus be faster to deal with the bottleneck then create multiple openings... not to mention that while making those openings they will probably be attacked from above by those on the walls, thus suffering losses... might be easiest to fight them in the city than on the outside

[Terran Medic]

OMG Its link!

[Bovius]

Tunnel warfare is a nasty thing.


Don't forget, Stanley has a dirtamancer on his payroll. We still don't know precisely what his abilities are, but I wouldn't be suprised if they include smashing up Marbits in confined dirt tunnels.

Also, whenever the eager elves get ousted, I'm looking forward to the mob of angry Link fans describing in detail why Link couldn't be defeated that way because of such and such a reason and also because he's awesome. :smallconfused:

[EpeeGnome]

I think its great that the comic has already got people arguing about tactics. It's really begun to pull me in. I too look forward to the battle, and how Lord Hampster handles it.

[squeakyreaper]

I believe that the city will be used as a decoy. Then SMASH, VOOM! The great Parson uses their own tactics against them.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ansom is... not a very smart guy.

He is spending several turns to get his siege engines into place... then doing exactly nothing with them. If I were him, I'd sit out of bowshot (or whatever ranged attack they are likely to ahve) and pound his walls into rubble without risking return fire, making several workable breaches in the castle's defenses before I ever sent my first infantry troop anywhere NEAR the castle.

Ansom: Okay, attack the walls!
Parson: They're at the walls! Dump the boiling oil!
Ansom: That hurt, okay but we got a breech! Everyone dogpile into the opening!
Parson: Plug that hole with their dead bodies. Archers, range from the sides into that hole, make it a dead man's land. Get me a pot of boiling oil on either side of that breach and dump it down there too. Great. Now Wanda, Uncroak me those bodies for more troops and send them through the breach at their thinned lines. Defeat in Detail!

[Aiani]

I liked the different varieties of elves especially the Eager elves. Also nice shot of Prince Ansom in the first panel, something for the ladies. I can't believe I didn't notice the Arkenpliers until I read this thread.

[slayerx]

I think its great that the comic has already got people arguing about tactics. It's really begun to pull me in. I too look forward to the battle, and how Lord Hampster handles it.
god knows i'm getting into it


He is spending several turns to get his siege engines into place... then doing exactly nothing with them. If I were him, I'd sit out of bowshot (or whatever ranged attack they are likely to ahve) and pound his walls into rubble without risking return fire, making several workable breaches in the castle's defenses before I ever sent my first infantry troop anywhere NEAR the castle.
What makes you assume that Ansome has seige weapons with greater range than the cities defences?... the city could be using defensive catapults and such which have the same range, if not greater and that could take out the allied seige weapons, even if they stay as far back as possible... if those seige weapons are their only targets, the defences have a better chance to take them out... and if they are all destoryed then their is much less chance of the infantry being able to bust the walls without them. However, if all the forces charge at once, the defences will have many more targets, and those seige weapons get a higher chance of survival, suviving long enough to make the much needed breach

there are two ways to breach a castle... you can either bust through the wall, or you can climb over it. The infentry who aren't actively damaging the wall could be using ladders and such to climb, if they get over it they can start weaken the wall from the inside to allow the larger troops in; or just open up the gates


Ansom: That hurt, okay but we got a breech! Everyone dogpile into the opening!
Parson: Plug that hole with their dead bodies. Archers, range from the sides into that hole, make it a dead man's land.
And here's where that 25-1 ratio comes in again... With the allied forces attacking from all sides, the enemy will be spread nice a thin around the wall of the castle. With a barrage of attacks coming from all sides, there is little to no way for the enemy to predict where the wall will be breached first... Once a hole is made, the allied forces will poor on in, and with a 25-1 ratio, it is highly unlikely that the archers in the immediate area will be enough to kill off all the troops pooring on in... maybe if they had many more archers in the area it would be possible, but since they are spread out evenly along the wall, that isn't going to happen... They could try to divert their forces to the opening, but by then the allied forces will have pushed their way in too hard... for the most part, the allies casualties for breaching the wall will be mostly just cannon fodder, while the real troops start doing some damage

Sure, being on the defencive in a fortress gives you a strong advantage over the attackers... but that alone is not gonna be enough to make up for a 25:1 disadvantage... more then likely, Parson's gonna need some good planning to make up for such a heavy disadvantage...

[Haruki-kun]

....................link?????
Dude, He Rules!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Aimbot]

Is anyone else wondering whether Ansom had a good reason to use the Luckless Elves as suicide troops or whether it's part of their bad luck to be the ones chosen?
"When I'm in command, every mission is a suicide mission!"- Zapp Brannigan

[Ceska]

I liked the obvious allusion to lord of the rings with the bunch in the caravan, looking like the attack on helms deep by saruman's forces in the film. After all the town center of stanley's forces is one of these centers of gondor in battle for middle earth.

[nobodez]

It took me about three look throughs of the comic before I found the pliers. Argh!

Oh, and I hope that the battle will not be easy, or else the chapter "the battle for gobwin knob" will be rather short, right? No, i think we're about to slow down our pace a bit. Heck, we've got like five turns before all the troops get there, plus another two to surround (right?).

[Furin]

hahaha, eight different kinds of elves. why is it that in every fantasy setting, elves get a million subraces while the rest of the world gets maybe one or two each?

That´s cuz them bloody treehuggers are booping everything that moves.. and has two legs.. optionally..

[The_Old_Fox]

hmmm... I think Parson is going to ruin Ansom's weekend, of course it would be an interesting turn of events if he doesn't. Opps, the Tool is dead.... well, huh, what now? (if that doesn't kill Parson)

[TheAnimal]

Never mind. After further inspection of Frame 1, I've recognized what we're discussing.
Oh, those! *gets it* Cleverly hidden in plain sight.
Some great art in this comic.
Wonder how the life expectancy among Eager Elves compares to the other Elf races... :smalltongue:

[Scientivore]

Wonder how the life expectancy among Eager Elves compares to the other Elf races... :smalltongue:

I wouldn't sell them any life insurance. :smallwink:

I'm guessing that they survive as a race because they're kinda...well...sluts. Indiscriminately enthusiastic, if we want to be polite. So, they have a lot of kids young, who then leave home and take care of themselves -- eagerly (natch), albeit not necessarily well -- at proportionately early ages.

I bet they're really popular at Bacchanals!

[Drascin]

Also, whenever the eager elves get ousted, I'm looking forward to the mob of angry Link fans describing in detail why Link couldn't be defeated that way because of such and such a reason and also because he's awesome. :smallconfused:

Nah, don't worry, as an absolute Zelda fanboy I can tell you there's no way people will get offended. That guy is, pretty obviously, an impostor, or a crazed fan dressed as Link :smallwink:. For one, Link wouldn't have said "Woo! Yes!", mainly because he doesn't, y'know, speak :P.

[MrWakka]

Actually, it appears as if Ansom is merely a passable general, not necessarily a good one. There are several flaws in his plan that are going to cause him grief.


Some others have commented on this already, but i thought i would toss my own 2gp of armchair generaling into it as well.

While i agree he is merely passable (maybe all nations choose looks over ability?) some of you logic is flawed.

Surrounding the city prevents stanley from escaping, so that if victorious the battle ends there, no extended engagement as stanley retreats, no hunting him down, etc, it ends then and there. Attacking the cities tunnels spreads the defenders even thinner at minimal loss to your own forces, at 25-1 odds you have the men to spare.

Going all out on the offense once surrounding the city will likely lead to a quick conclusion, which is good considering that the allied forces are not likely to remain allied very long, after all some might consider stanley already crippled from his numerous losses. Alliances are also not something ansom has control over, and it shows alot for its unity that they elected a single overall commander and each did not insist on their troops being lead by one of their own.

The biggest flaw stanley has is the fact he intended to open a single entry point, which you commented on, this single flaw is enough to set him at barely passable if not even worse.

Predicted Outcome:

The eager elves charge in, overlooking a trap of some sort, the unlucky elves follow as does the Schlemiel, the eager elves are destroyed, the unlucky see whats going on and try to retreat only to have the Schlemiel elves mess it up, resulting in all three being wiped out.

[Cruiser1]

With a barrage of attacks coming from all sides, there is little to no way for the enemy to predict where the wall will be breached first... Once a hole is made, the allied forces will poor on in, and with a 25-1 ratio, it is highly unlikely that the archers in the immediate area will be enough to kill off all the troops pooring on in... maybe if they had many more archers in the area it would be possible, but since they are spread out evenly along the wall, that isn't going to happen... They could try to divert their forces to the opening, but by then the allied forces will have pushed their way in too hard...A tactic for the defenders in this situation is put most of your archers and boiling oil at a particular spot along the wall. Then have your dirtomancer soften the rock under the wall at that point, so that's the section of wall that gets breached first. The attackers go through there, which is exactly where you're waiting for them! If the wall's eventually going to be breached, have it happen on your terms. :smallcool:

[Eldan]

Nah, don't worry, as an absolute Zelda fanboy I can tell you there's no way people will get offended. That guy is, pretty obviously, an impostor, or a crazed fan dressed as Link :smallwink:. For one, Link wouldn't have said "Woo! Yes!", mainly because he doesn't, y'know, speak :P.

But you oversee the fact that "yes" and "no" are about the only things he can say. :smallwink:

[SteveMB]

That's what I'm wondering. Either he's a very good general, and wants to use the worst troops as canon fodder, or he's a very poor general and is trusting the breakthrough to the worst troops :smallconfused:
Or, the simplest hypothesis, he's a fairly good but not great general who has been rolling over the opposition because they're led by a total tool.

[Iralie]

In further defence of Ansom's tactics, in turn based strategy games - which much of Erfworld looks like it may be based on in some way - you can not move through a square with an enemy unit in except with fliers, and even then it varies by game. By surrounding the city Stanley's forces are spread thinner and incapable of moving to get close to the siege engines.

Also if Ansom is using the elves as cannon fodder, what's to say this is his actual plan? He could well be planning on opening another hole in the walls in secret and pushing through that with little notice as the bottleneck is the focus of most of the troops.

Edit - Also the Giraffes and teddy bears are probably fearsome anti-structure or monster units.

[Gamebird]

The bottleneck is indeed rather troublesome... but with 25:1 ratio it shouldn't be too much of a problem to deal with. this is exactly why he's sending in cannon fodder in first, by the time they are killed off the allied forces will have forced their way inside.

Which may well be his intention. These aren't his own troops, so getting them killed might be a good side effect. If the battle is over and he's killed all the forces of his allies and most or all of Stanley's, then he won't care. Just go take over whoever had their forces wiped out. So long as he preserves his own forces, who weren't mentioned anywhere in the strategy (unless he controls the Marbits... who will conveniently be in a position where no one else can see them).

Of course, this overlooks the fact that the other rulers will then turn against him, so he'd better be sure they either hate whoever he takes over, or they are so crippled themselves they can't fend him off afterwards. I could see Parson allying with those betrayed by Ansom.


I liked the different varieties of elves especially the Eager elves. Also nice shot of Prince Ansom in the first panel, something for the ladies. I can't believe I didn't notice the Arkenpliers until I read this thread.

Yes, well, it's understandable we couldn't see the arkenpliers there! They were concealed!! It's like that internet meme of putting a gorgeous babe next to the ocean and saying, "If you look really hard, you might see the ocean in this picture, but I haven't been able to see it yet."

[foil_fedora]

He is spending several turns to get his siege engines into place... then doing exactly nothing with them. If I were him, I'd sit out of bowshot (or whatever ranged attack they are likely to ahve) and pound his walls into rubble without risking return fire, making several workable breaches in the castle's defenses before I ever sent my first infantry troop anywhere NEAR the castle.


I think you can get much greater range out of big, heavy siege engines built in-place on city walls than you'll get from smaller, lighter field pieces... but if you have *enough* field pieces to concentrate on one weak point, you may be able to create your own breach before the wall-mounted engines can pound your lighter pieces to tinder.

In addition, send a dirtamancer *under* the walls with the marbits, I dunno what a dirtamancer can do (besides animate crap golems), but if it involves moving large quantities of earth in a short time, then one dirtamancer should be able to easily undermine a section of wall.

If Ansom doesn't pick the point for the breach(es), Parson is going to pick it for him, and it'll lead to one serious trap (then lots of uncroaking work for Wanda).

Loving the tactical discussion!

[foil_fedora]

A tactic for the defenders in this situation is put most of your archers and boiling oil at a particular spot along the wall. Then have your dirtomancer soften the rock under the wall at that point, so that's the section of wall that gets breached first. The attackers go through there, which is exactly where you're waiting for them! If the wall's eventually going to be breached, have it happen on your terms. :smallcool:

Props to Cruiser1 for getting this idea up before I did... must read *all* the posts before replying!

[SteveMB]

Tunnel warfare is a nasty thing. He's also counting on Stanely (joke's on him, the Tool's not in charge anymore) to send Undead (Uncroaked) troops down there, for some odd reason (unless Uncroaked retain their intelligence, they need to be commanded, and few will attempt to command masses of mindless undead inside cramped little tunnels... doesn't work good).
As you said, he's used to fighting against Stanley -- if he knows that this is just the sort of trick Stanley falls for every time, it makes perfect sense.


Wasting time surrounding the city is a bad idea.
That may be another case of tactics tailored for his (expected) opponent -- he may have (correctly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0006.html)) guessed that Stanley intends to slip out and save his own skin. Forcing him to do so immediately or else be trapped could be beneficial in either case (the former could result in a leadership vacuum or new management with the sense to surrender; the latter will leave Stanley panicky and thus acting dumber than ever).


(making multiple breaches or just swiftly isolating the city and siege-ing it into non-existance is a more effective plan).
That would take even longer than surrounding the city and pouring through the first breach, and Ansom has to wrap this up before the alliance starts fracturing.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

That would take even longer than surrounding the city and pouring through the first breach, and Ansom has to wrap this up before the alliance starts fracturing.

I would disagree that it would take longer. I'd start pounding away with siege engines as soon as they could range on the walls. Making a few workable breaches in the walls on one side makes you able to put more troops into the area, letting you take more advantage of your 25:1 numerical advantage. If you let them choke you off, you loose most of your numerical advantage, because only a small percentage of your forces can be applied to it. So use your catapults or whatever to make three or four large-ish breaches in one section of the wall, then send in the Elves with your more serious troops behind them. While they are doing that, elevate your siege engines to arc into the actual structure itself so that by the time your troops get there, they will have an easier time of it, then stop bombardment so you don't hit your own troops. Friendly Fire Isn't.

This would take less time than simply surrounding the castle then trying to work breeches in the walls with infantry, then dogpiling into the first breech that presents itself.

[innovan]

So first thing, destroy the road up so it takes more than five turns to cross, buying you more time.

Also, aren't Handsome's troops all ground based, while Tool has the air troops, the ability to scout, the ability to make ranged fire attacks against melee troops, and the advantage of movement?

[chionophile]

Also, aren't Handsome's troops all ground based, while Tool has the air troops, the ability to scout, the ability to make ranged fire attacks against melee troops, and the advantage of movement?

Ansom has Doombats, Gwiffons and Orlies at the very least. I'd be willing to bet that there are a few other air units that we haven't been introduced to yet.

[Calsan]

Why is Link the Eager elf?

To awnser that question you just have to play the zelda games and remember that link is an elf. It's not really explainable unless you play it.

Sufficiency to say Link is a very enthusiastic character, whit all it's running arround and stuff.

[slayerx]

A tactic for the defenders in this situation is put most of your archers and boiling oil at a particular spot along the wall. Then have your dirtomancer soften the rock under the wall at that point, so that's the section of wall that gets breached first. The attackers go through there, which is exactly where you're waiting for them! If the wall's eventually going to be breached, have it happen on your terms. :smallcool:
A decent plan, but not one without it's flaws... for one thing is picking where and when to make that weakened wall... put it in the back, and you risk the chance of ansom's forces breaking through the front before the back, since they'll be pounding on it longer... put in the front, and ansom's forces may break through too soon, before they surrounded the castle... thus his full force will be pooring through that crack and such numbers may just plain overwelm the defences... the timing is rather crucial...

The plan also posses a huge risk... by concetrating the most of the defence at one point, Ansom maybe able to foresee the trap coming... especially after they break through and notices his forces are getting killed fatser than expected... however, Ansom can just order his troops to fall back once he notices, more then likely with the cannon fodder elves being the only ones to fall into the trap... Ansom's troops fall back and order to breach another part of the wall, at this point, that breach they allowed in the wall, becomes and handicap for the Gobwin forces. Not only do they need to move their defence to prevent a second breach, but they now have to keep a healthy portion of their troops near he first breach to make sure Ansom doesn't send troops through there... in essence, it may be too risky to allow a breach and thus should find ways to keep the walls up; at 25:1 allowing the wall to be breach seems too risky

As for the comments about killing marbits in the tunnels... here we kinda got to question the purpose of those tunnels... it could be that the tunnels are very important to gobwin, and thus it becomes far less likely that gobwin would damage the tunnels to kill the marbits, in favor of killing them the old fashion way (somethine ansom may know about the enemy and be relying on)... however, i wouldn't be surprised if Parson thought that no matter how important the tunnels were, they were a nessasary sacrifice

It's not as if Ansom's plans are perfect... but some poeple seem to make it seem like this battle will be easier to defend against than it actually is. with such a huge disadvantage, their gonna need some good planning. i can think of a few stradegies i might try, though i would have to make assumptions as to what the gobwin's can do (kinda like assuming the dirtomancer's can soften the stones walls)

[fehler]

The uncroaked aren't mindless. Manpower the Temporary was able to follow a somewhat complex order from Wanda after his uncroaking.

[Gamebird]

Like Parson said, battles are often won or lost on a host of small details. You can't just say "Okay, that's Ansom's plan" and then speak definitively about whether he will win or lose.

[Doug Lampert]

Oh, those! *gets it* Cleverly hidden in plain sight.
Some great art in this comic.
Wonder how the life expectancy among Eager Elves compares to the other Elf races... :smalltongue:Probably better than the Unlucky Elves.

[Doug Lampert]

Ansom is... not a very smart guy.

He is spending several turns to get his siege engines into place... then doing exactly nothing with them. If I were him, I'd sit out of bowshot (or whatever ranged attack they are likely to ahve) and pound his walls into rubble without risking return fire, making several workable breaches in the castle's defenses before I ever sent my first infantry troop anywhere NEAR the castle.
We don't know the rules of this game. But actual siege engines prior to cannons simply COULD NOT breach defended stone walls from range (much less pound them to rubble). Weapons able to breach were things like rams and even those normally worked only on gates. Even with cannon it could and often did take months to create a single practical breach if it could be done at all. Without cannon (or powerful magic) forget it. You can't knock down walls with real engines. Hence the popularity of a method called the siege, which basically consisted of sitting outside with about a 3:1 margin and waiting for the defenders to starve. Also the popularity of another method called storming the place, which typically required a minimum of 10:1 odds and that the defenders have inadequate numbers. Just what are Ansom's odds again and how strong are the TOOL's forces?

In the real world of course the most popular methods are to convince the defenders to surrender or find someone inside willing to open a gate at night for lots of money and other valuable considerations (we'll let you and your family live). But most turn based strategy games aren't big on these tried and true methods.

The purpose of real siege engines in actual warfare was ALWAYS to support an assualt by giving the guys standing on top of the wall one more thing to worry about. Not to knock down walls because they couldn't do it. You assault everywhere at once (including suicidal tunnels and escalades) because you can't get in anywhere that is adequately defended. The only hope is to force the defender to try to spread out to where something isn't adequately defended. With 25 to 1 odds and an entire rather long city wall + pre-existing tunnels to assault Ansom's plan is perfectly practical. Yours results in sitting outside the city watching the defenders LAUGH at your engines while your troops starve and die of various camp deseases (you will starve first, 25:1 against a city's defenders means there are more of you than can actually be fed by the surrounding countryside).

Just to add to the fun Ansom is dragging his engines along, which means they are LIGHT engines. Heavy stuff was effectively always constructed on site out of local timber + premade parts shipped in. Which as others have pointed out means any engines on the wall WILL outrange him, and if using anything vaguely historical means that his engines probably won't wreck the defending engines even on a direct hits while the converse isn't true. Portable seige engine basically means a light ballista or something similar, basically a really heavy crossbow that you use to shoot at people, including people under light cover. No use at all against heavy stone walls.

It all depends on the rules of this game, but real world, strategies like Ansom's worked well enough, while sitting outside and waiting for siege engines to make multiple practical breaches in the walls NEVER worked prior to cannons and rarely even with cannons.

[foil_fedora]

The purpose of real siege engines in actual warfare was ALWAYS to support an assualt by giving the guys standing on top of the wall one more thing to worry about. Not to knock down walls because they couldn't do it.

Well, you can do it with a light catapult, but only if your ammo is... explodamancers. :smallbiggrin:

I kill me... and if I don't my audience will.

[LTDave]

Any sort of siege that has flying units (dwagons, etc) is not going to obey conventional rules.

If the TOOL lines the walls with me, the sugar-chick gwiffons will just land behind them. If the TOOL keeps his troops throughout the City, the Eager Elves (woo! yeah!) will push through simple as anything.

I think Parson will favour a withdrawal into the inner keep (if for no other reason than narrative purposes) and let the Alliance loot the city (cause arguments and disorder).

Also, Parson isn't really in charge. I'm pretty sure that the TOOL will interfere fairly regularly and muck things around. And fi parson disobeys a direct order, he will cease to exist.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If one cannot batter down their walls, one can lob burning pitch into the castle and burn it from the inside. Sure, stone doesn't burn... but thatched roofs, houses, barns, sheds, and any other structure made of wood most certainly would. And again, catapults can do this without getting into bow range. Not even the English Yew Longbows shooting Grey Goose shafts.

Even better, Trebuchets, which *CAN* batter a wall down with rocks weighing up to a ton (I've actually lobbed a buic into a lake using a real trebuchet once...). That much weight comming at that much speed most certainly will knock big gaps in walls.

[Cyclone231]

To awnser that question you just have to play the zelda games and remember that link is an elf.
Link is NOT an elf.

He's a Hylian.

They're much closer to a variant human race, than elves. And even then, the only unique trait they have is the ears.

But, he does look like an elf, so I will give you a break and not bite your head off.

[Drascin]

But you oversee the fact that "yes" and "no" are about the only things he can say. :smallwink:

Actually, he usually just nods or shakes his head. The only vocal things to come out of Link's mouth during games are usually his battlecries as he attacks and rends enemies to pieces :smallamused:. He doesn't even get a sound FX that means "he's talking, really!" as a lot of NPCs get :P.

Aaaaanyway, on topic: yeah, the strategy Ansom's following has a few holes, but let's be honest: if Parson was not there, it would have a pretty good chance of succeding. No commander of Gobwin Knob before would have even guessed the marbit thing was a feint, and really, given the nature of strategy games, where usually the best way to pass a defensive post is to pour in and hit from the inside, trying to find a crack desperately is logical. Of course, since it is logical, it is expected for Parson -and therefore Ansom is going to have some pretty big problems he doesn't expect :smallwink:.

[Doug Lampert]

If one cannot batter down their walls, one can lob burning pitch into the castle and burn it from the inside. Sure, stone doesn't burn... but thatched roofs, houses, barns, sheds, and any other structure made of wood most certainly would. And again, catapults can do this without getting into bow range. Not even the English Yew Longbows shooting Grey Goose shafts.

Even better, Trebuchets, which *CAN* batter a wall down with rocks weighing up to a ton (I've actually lobbed a buic into a lake using a real trebuchet once...). That much weight comming at that much speed most certainly will knock big gaps in walls.Trebuchets are non-mobile, so they're not what is being draged along. And I know of ZERO (that's 0.000) cases of a defended stone wall having a practical breach knocked in it by Trebuchet bombardment historically.

You could damage the works, which is important, but 15+' thick stone walls can bounce a LOT of 1 ton rocks without falling down and the people inside can reinforce faster than you're doing damage.

Do you have an actual example of this working, ever? Even one case of a reasonably solid wall falling to trebuchet bombardment historically and the city falling when people walked in through one of the breaches.

Or for that matter of a defended city being deliberately fired by throwing in incendiaries from outside pre-gunpowder? Cities burned in sacks all the time, but burning PRIOR to a breach without big powder magazines inside somewhere exploding? I can't think of a single case of either outside of fiction, and I've read a fair number of military histories and original source documents about ancient and medieval warfare.

DougL

[Erk]

Doug, you are absolutely right in regards to real siege warfare, but it's kind of a nonsequitor in this case. This isn't real warfare on Earth. Not only are there totally different units, but the physics don't match either.

However, yes, it is very funny how people assume castle walls were just kinda decorative because that is how they are in strategy games. Hell, in Stronghold you can bash them down with a sword... pretty damn quickly, too.