Planar Affinity

[Tragak]

When I started this thread, my original problem was this:

I'm planning a series of homebrew feats based on the Great Wheel cosmology, and I'm wondering how to make the prerequisites Bytopia-specific or Carceri-specific as opposed to Planar-in-general.

I was originally thinking that, in addition to the Ability, Skill (including Knowledge-Planes), and/or Feat requirements, I could say "Must EITHER be an Outsider AND/OR have gained a level in [fill in the blank]," but the only advice I've gotten on this part of the project specifically is that the "have gained a level in ..." option was too arbitrary, and I haven't come up with a more concrete requirement to replace it.

I want it to be easier for Outsiders to get Planar feats, but still possible for mortals; I want the requirements for mortals to be specific to the individual Planes, but Outsiders only need to be from somewhere in the general ballpark:

Gehenna, Hades, and Carceri feats would be available to Evil Outsiders
Abyss feats would be available to Chaotic (non-Good) and/or Evil (non-Lawful) Outsiders...
And mortals would need something more specific than that.

Does anybody here have ideas that could help? Or is this part not as important as I think it is?

Fortunately, the very first response (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17046650#post17046650) was a brilliant idea to turn the entire set of requirements into a single keyword, "Affinity": that way, even if it becomes more complicated - as it most certainly has been - it can still be summed up in a single word, and could even become useful for access to even more character features beyond simply new feats.

I've set up the primary framework for how the Affinity trait would work HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=17048470#post17048470).

Everybody, thank you for everything so far, and I can't wait to see where this goes next!

[Durazno]

This might be an unwieldy approach, but I'm sort of just sounding this out for the moment.

You might include a new kind of keyword for characters. Let's call it 'affinity' for now. Then you could say, "you have affinity for The Nine Hells if you are A) a devil, other native of the plane or an expressing descendant of either, B) have levels in a class that grants affinity or C) have made a pact with a devil or evil god that grants this affinity."

Then the classes you want to associate with given planes could say, "This class grants affinity for The Nine Hells. You cannot take levels in this class if you have affinity with another plane."

Finally, the feats could have affinity as a prerequisite, either exclusive to a given plane or a group of planes that share a thematic point with the feat.

EDIT: I don't know if it'd be better for affinities to be totally exclusive or not. Also, would there be things associated with the Prime Material Plane?

[Tragak]

This might be an unwieldy approach, but I'm sort of just sounding this out for the moment.

You might include a new kind of keyword for characters. Let's call it 'affinity' for now. Then you could say, "you have affinity for The Nine Hells if you are A) a devil, other native of the plane or an expressing descendant of either, B) have levels in a class that grants affinity or C) have made a pact with a devil or evil god that grants this affinity."

Then the classes you want to associate with given planes could say, "This class grants affinity for The Nine Hells. You cannot take levels in this class if you have affinity with another plane."

Finally, the feats could have affinity as a prerequisite, either exclusive to a given plane or a group of planes that share a thematic point with the feat. Interesting. That sounds like as good a place to start as any, so yeah, I'll see if I can flesh it out a bit.


EDIT: I don't know if it'd be better for affinities to be totally exclusive or not. Also, would there be things associated with the Prime Material Plane? 1) I'd prefer that they not be exclusive, since I'd love for people who learn what multiple Planes have to offer to be more powerful than those who only learned from one group of teachers: for example, a Ysgard feat for easier sneak attacks + a Carceri feat for more powerful sneak attacks, or a Mechanus feat for building more constructs + a Bytopia feat for fixing them.

2) I was originally thinking that "Prime Material" feats would just be the ones that everybody already knows about, but now that you mention it, I'm wondering if Prime Material could actually have something more special than that.

Maybe Prime Material and the Outlands could be reflected in opposite types of Neutrality feats (like a "positive zero vs. negative zero")?

[Zaydos]

"Must have spent a month on plane X" coupled with alignment restrictions (Carceri requires Evil or Chaotic Neutral, Ysgard requires Chaotic or Neutral Good)?

[Tragak]

Durazno, I think I've come up with a good way of handling your "Affinity for [fill-in-the-blank]" idea, and Zaydos, good point about alignment being part of it even for non-Outsiders.

In order to claim Affinity for Prime Material, the Outlands, or one of the 16 Alignment Planes as a character feature, you must either:

1) Belong to an Outsider race corresponding to an appropriate alignment
2) Be a Cleric, such that either you and/or your deity is of an appropriate alignment
3) Go to the plane and complete a specific ritual (easier/faster when aided by either of the above)

The planes that each alignment is appropriate for being:LG: Arcadia, Mount Celestia, Bytopia
NG: Bytopia, Elysium, the Beastlands
CG: the Beastlands, Arborea, Ysgard
CN: Ysgard, Limbo, Pandemonium
CE: Carceri, Pandemonium, the Abyss
NE: Gehenna, Hades, Carceri
LE: Acheron, Baator, Gehenna
LN: Mechanus, Acheron, Arcadia

As such, Outsiders and/or Clerics have natural affinities for quite a few of the Planes, but anybody can collect permanent affinities for any of them.

Somebody who loses affinity for a Plane keeps all of their current feats requiring affinity for that Plane, but cannot acquire new ones for the same Plane without regaining the proper affinity in some way.

I’d like to note, and I take it as a good thing, that redeemed Fiends / corrupted Celestials can develop an absurd level of flexibility with this system:

A Succubus (affinity for Pandemonium, Carceri, The Abyss)…
Who becomes a Lawful Neutral Cleric (affinity for Mechanus, Acheron, Arcadia)…
Of a Lawful Good deity (affinity for Arcadia, Mount Celestia, Bytopia)…
Now only needs to go to half of the 16 Alignment Planes (Baator - Hades, Elysium - Arborea - Limbo) to do anything personally, instead of almost all of them.

NOTE: The Outlands have no alignment, so no Outsiders and/or Clerics can claim natural Affinity. The only way to claim Outlands Affinity is by completing the ritual.

Prime Material has no alignment either, so natural Affinity is claimed by Druids and/or Native Outsiders (not alignment specific), as opposed to Clerics and/or non-Native Outsiders (alignment specific).

The "Ritual" option for non-Clerics and non-Outsiders to acquire Affinity: Performing the ritual requires going to the Plane you seek Affinity to, and entails completing 3 skill checks from among the following options: Autohypnosis, Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (Planes), and Knowledge (Religion).

The DC for each check starts at 15. For each time that you have already completed a check in a specific skill, the DC increases by 5 in order to use the same skill again instead of adding a different one.

Each attempt costs materials - exact nature TBD - worth 100 gp x the DC of the check.

When you make a skill check for the ritual, an ally who already has affinity for the Plane that you are seeking may choose - at some extra cost TBD - to make her own check in the same skill at the same time. Her result is not applied to the ritual itself, but is divided by 10, rounded down, and added as a bonus to your own roll.

Distinguishing "Outlands" Neutrality from "Prime Material" Neutrality:

Outlands (exclusively Outsiders, every alignment is strong) neutrality-feats could entail

*getting bonuses to "Protection from Alignment, etc…" spells (since the point is to keep different species from killing each other)
*no longer needing to eat or sleep (mortals and Native Outsiders gain the same benefits as normal Outsiders, but keep their own benefit of being Raised/Resurrected)

Prime Material (exclusively non-Outsiders, no alignments are strong) neutrality-feats could entail

*resistance/immunity to banishment (since they are the ones who banish other people)
*being brought back to life with as little as Raise Dead or Resurrection (normal Outsiders gain the same benefits as mortals or Native Outsiders, but still keep their own benefit of going without food/sleep)
*getting through other people's "Protection from Alignment, etc…" spells (since the point is that you do not register as strongly)

---

Anybody else have ideas?

[Durazno]

I really like that!

Maybe the Prime Material Plane could have native gods or spirits or titans, with Druids counting as priests to them?

Upon learning that Sigil is at the center of the Outlands, I got the notion that perhaps the Lady of Pain takes a dim view of outsiders trying to build affinity there. After all, it would result in angels and demons and devils who have more power in the Outlands and draw power from it, which must be really annoying for her.

You could gain affinity by becoming a priest of the Lady of Pain, if you really want to. Let us know how that goes.

[Glimbur]

Why should you be able to lose affinity gained by a ritual from someone else casting Wish or Miracle? That's simultaneously annoying and a waste of a Wish or Miracle.

Affinities could be cool. You could try to kludge something together with native plane, since when you are off of your native plane you are [extraplanar] so you can be banished, but affinities sound like a more elegant solution.

As for what makes the Prime special... think about whether anybody born there has the affinity or if it takes extra effort. Outsiders have affinity automatically, but they are Outsiders. Maybe Prime affinity is not automatic. That means it can be more special. What is the Prime good at? Making heroes, changing, being boring or mundane, variety. Possibly Prime aligned feats are like Luck feats (heroes), or they reward variety (but that seems a lot like the CN planes' gimmick). They are the standard against which other things are compared, and visitors there can be banished; maybe Prime affinity lets you ignore other planar effects and could include banishment resistance/immunity. It's tricky to think of anything that another plane isn't more focused on.

[Tragak]

I really like that!

Maybe the Prime Material Plane could have native gods or spirits or titans, with Druids counting as priests to them?

Upon learning that Sigil is at the center of the Outlands, I got the notion that perhaps the Lady of Pain takes a dim view of outsiders trying to build affinity there. After all, it would result in angels and demons and devils who have more power in the Outlands and draw power from it, which must be really annoying for her.

You could gain affinity by becoming a priest of the Lady of Pain, if you really want to. Let us know how that goes. I will most certainly try to do something with that. You're good at this! :smalltongue:


Why should you be able to lose affinity gained by a ritual from someone else casting Wish or Miracle? That's simultaneously annoying and a waste of a Wish or Miracle. Yeah, I didn't think that through. Maybe if we expand Affinity into something bigger than just a Feats requirement, but until then there's really no point to negating it.


As for what makes the Prime special... think about whether anybody born there has the affinity or if it takes extra effort. Outsiders have affinity automatically, but they are Outsiders. Maybe Prime affinity is not automatic. That means it can be more special. What is the Prime good at? Making heroes, changing, being boring or mundane, variety. Possibly Prime aligned feats are like Luck feats (heroes), or they reward variety (but that seems a lot like the CN planes' gimmick). They are the standard against which other things are compared, and visitors there can be banished; maybe Prime affinity lets you ignore other planar effects and could include banishment resistance/immunity. It's tricky to think of anything that another plane isn't more focused on. Intriguing :smallbiggrin:

[Zaydos]

2e Primes couldn't be banished, or summoned, or affected by protection from evil; in effect they were never considered extraplanar (and couldn't be summoned but summons work rather different in 3.X).

[Newwby]

2e Primes couldn't be banished, or summoned, or affected by protection from evil; in effect they were never considered extraplanar (and couldn't be summoned but summons work rather different in 3.X).

That would be a very good idea for a material plane affinity feat.

You could also go steps further with this idea and build a whole selection of spell descriptors that correspond to affinity (named for the planes as appropriate), allowing only creatures with the correct affinity to learn and cast the spells (although retaining them, without use of them, upon loss of affinity as with the feat).

Prestige classes too - it could become it's own cool homebrew subsystem.

[Tragak]

That would be a very good idea for a material plane affinity feat. It certainly is :smallsmile:


You could also go steps further with this idea and build a whole selection of spell descriptors that correspond to affinity (named for the planes as appropriate), allowing only creatures with the correct affinity to learn and cast the spells (although retaining them, without use of them, upon loss of affinity as with the feat).

Prestige classes too - it could become it's own cool homebrew subsystem. Wow, this could get a lot bigger than I had originally planned :smalltongue:

Anybody else have ideas?