Healing Potions

[Bayushi]

In 4e healing pots say "Drink this potion and spend a healing surge. Instead of the hit points you would normally regain, you regain 10 hit points."
In 4e a healing surge is the number of times per day that you can be healed.
The question is...if someone forces you to drink a healing potion...can/should you be able to resist?

On one hand the official wording doesn't say 'you may' so it sounds like it just happens...But if that is the rule then it makes an interesting situation where Healing pots are weapons...

Imagine: "I throw the healing pot at the dragon(at full hp) so that it doesn't have any more Healing surges for the day and cant heal later"
Imagine: "You walk into the room and a bucket of healing pots drops on your head...What is your Reflex? Well I guess you get hit by 11 of them and heal 11*10(or 110) but you dont have any healing surges left today...GL!"

Assuming that someone should be able to resist...is it based on accuracy(Can I hit the dragon), Fortitude (Can a dwarf drink alot of healing pots without healing if they want), Reflex(Look the dragon can fly out of the way), Will(' I SHALL NOT HEAL') or a saving throw (50/50 chance)

[INDYSTAR188]

In 4e healing pots say "Drink this potion and spend a healing surge. Instead of the hit points you would normally regain, you regain 10 hit points."
In 4e a healing surge is the number of times per day that you can be healed.
The question is...if someone forces you to drink a healing potion...can/should you be able to resist?

On one hand the official wording doesn't say 'you may' so it sounds like it just happens...But if that is the rule then it makes an interesting situation where Healing pots are weapons...

Imagine: "I throw the healing pot at the dragon(at full hp) so that it doesn't have any more Healing surges for the day and cant heal later"
Imagine: "You walk into the room and a bucket of healing pots drops on your head...What is your Reflex? Well I guess you get hit by 11 of them and heal 11*10(or 110) but you dont have any healing surges left today...GL!"

Assuming that someone should be able to resist...is it based on accuracy(Can I hit the dragon), Fortitude (Can a dwarf drink alot of healing pots without healing if they want), Reflex(Look the dragon can fly out of the way), Will(' I SHALL NOT HEAL') or a saving throw (50/50 chance)

I don't know the official rule judication to answer your question but this is something we (my group) do by consensus. If not that then I make a ruling on the fly (usually in favor of the PC's) and look up the answer later. Use your best judgement to make a challenging and fun game experience for yourself and your party.

[Gavran]

Healing Surges are more of a meta-element, are they not? They're an abstract of an abstract (hp). The link between being healed from the potion and losing a healing surge only exists OOC. Now, if you're going for a OOC-style setting like the OotS, go for it. In a standard setting though? It's kind of absurd. Just use necromancy/vampires/poison if you want to drain surges. And of course, you'll have to let them rest before surviving many encounters because they're a largely necessary meta-element.

*I imagine it's quite difficult - nigh impossible - to force something that's a valid threat to you to drink something. Also only PCs make extensive use of surges. Thus I only see it in a trap-like situation or something... which totally works. Give the party some magical, strange "benefactor" (in my head she's a fae queen, but one can always re-fluff.) She offers them a sumptuous banquet, and if they partake then you describe the "healing effects" they feel. If they aren't paranoid, they assume it's magical faerie food and keep eating. Then, when all their surges are drained she springs her trap to capture the party and sell them to the BBEG. Again though - this is a plot thing, not a game thing. They didn't "lose" by falling for the trick, they just have to break out of their imprisonment instead of fighting her troops at full strength and winning their freedom then. Of course it's important to remember that PCs are crazy. Fortunately non-lethal damage is a thing and they actually do want the PCs alive.

[Kurald Galain]

Well for starters, most potions don't work if you pour them over your head :smallbiggrin:

[GPuzzle]

Knockout (Rogue Level 9 Daily).
Bam, you can give the potion to him.

Then again, if you need to knock someone unconcious to do a plan, it's not very effective.

[Juzer]

IMHO,
- potions don't work if just slammed onto you, you have to drink it whole
- a plan about healing surges is just plain metagaming, because players know many monsters don't have them, but the characters live in a coherent world where people&monsters just exist, and are not divided by stat's mechanics

[Tegu8788]

Also, the idea of using your resources to keep an enemy from healing in a little while instead of just killing it. At the end of the day it would get everything back anyway, so it would be only useful if you planned on attacking, then letting it run away, and attacking it again, then letting it run away, then attacking again. Attrition is not exactly a fun way to take down a dragon.


You just kill it. Then it can't heal, at all.

[Bayushi]

Thank you for your input so far.

If I understand people above ...
A)Healing surges are a meta-concept that exists only to create attrition for the players. Therefor the Character shouldn't be aware or use this concept in a fight.
--(my opinion):HP is a meta concept for sure. "The dragon has 10hp" should really be "The dragon looks like it can barely stand up". Healing Surges are not entirely a meta concept. Characters know that they can only 'tend' to their wounds with magic a certain amount of times before having to go sleep for a while. It exists as a physical limit on their bodies as much as the characters being aware that it has to rest between uses of dailies(or spells if you compare to 3.5). It would therefor follow that you could use this as an aggressive tactic.

B)There exists other potions or abilities(drain/negative energy) that can be used to drain healing surges.
--(my opinion):This seems to make a lot of sense. In other words healing potions exist to heal someone...thus the wizard/mage/fish that created the item would create a spell to benefit(do no harm). Thus healing potions should read "You may". and if you want this tactic you would find(from a story perspective) "Negative healing Potions" to do something like this.

I think some context might aid this conversation.
Currently I am between sessions where the players know that next session Players will be fighting other Players. Both sides have enough healing potions/heals that a valid tactic could in theory be to use the first rounds to waste HS instead of dealing damage that will be healing later. I am not sure if this tactic would make the battle more or less fun.

Also I have personally ruled that you can throw a healing surge at an ally(as a standard) and it will heal them(even if they are asleep) because it has, as INDYSTAR188 said, made a much more interesting/epic situation for everyone..."I swing across the pit...slide under the ogre..and toss the healing potion around the corner at the unconscious rogue"

I appreciate your input. In the end it will be how ever I feel about it. With that said I am curious how you would rule it and if you agree /disagree with my responses above so that I can have a 'fair' response to when they bring up this tactic next session.


You just kill it. Then it can't heal, at all.
unfortunately my players might realize (or conclude) that if the dragon can regrow an arm (meta-Heal a ton of hp). Then it might be better to stop the healing before you try to just kill it. Spend first two rounds with everyone feeding the dragon potions. Players are Crazy(for better or worse)

[Yakk]

So, you changed how you consume healing potions (they are now "touch" instead of "drink"), and you are worried about corner case abuse?

Add in "if you have taken any damage, heal up to 10 of it and lose a healing surge". Healing potions are exhausting (costing you healing surges) but repair wounds.

Like many things, the dose makes the poison. A wounded person dipped in a lake of healing potion would come out exhausted but healed (all healing surges removed, gained 10 HP per surge lost).

[Gavran]

It's not just magical healing though, it also covers times when Warlords shout at you. :P And short rests for that matter. I can accept that a character has a vague sense of "there's only so much I can take in a day no matter how much healing I get" but for me the connection between that and "If I take a bunch of healing potions I won't be able to heal later" isn't really there. Still, I've expressed that opinion already you're of course free to disagree and go with whatever you like.

Have your players thought about this/mentioned this or are you just speculating? Is it a one encounter fight or are there rests? The parties likely don't have enough in-combat healing for losing 1 surge per standard action to be remotely worth it. And with some initiative winning, it wouldn't be that hard to nova down an enemy leader right off the bat anyway. But I haven't played any 4E PvP so I'll let those with more experience chip in.

Coincidentally, I'm totally fine with splash potions as Standard Actions. It's a small enough thing, but neat.

[Tegu8788]

Are they throwing their own surges, or throwing the guy the ability to use a surge, effectively granting an ally the use of a second wind? If the former, defenders have a distinct edge. If the latter, leaders are less useful.

I don't think it's game breaking to do ranged heal checks, using an item to replace the check itself.

[Dimers]

"I swing across the pit...slide under the ogre..and toss the healing potion around the corner at the unconscious rogue"

That is AWESOME, it finally makes artificer healing MAKE SENSE, and I'm totally putting it into my houserules. Potions are no longer a thing to drink. They're all throwable puffballs. If you want to use one on yourself, just squeeze the puff over your head or slap it on your chest.

Though I'll also join the chorus in saying that removing monster surges is a marginal activity. I think that *if* a player wants to do it at all, it'd be better to homebrew a power or item specifically intended to drain monster surges, rather than shoehorning healing potions into the role. A player who's familiar with the system and greatly desires that goal is probably already taking attack powers that prevent healing on a hit, anyway.

[Kurald Galain]

I don't think it's game breaking to do ranged heal checks, using an item to replace the check itself.

Not particularly, no. We've had one game where our sole healer was a wizard stocked up on potions, using Mage Hand to administer them.

[Telwar]

I specified in our Al Qadim 4e game that my sorcerer's healing potions are jello shots. :smallbiggrin:

[MunkeeGamer]

IMHO,
- potions don't work if just slammed onto you, you have to drink it whole
- a plan about healing surges is just plain metagaming, because players know many monsters don't have them, but the characters live in a coherent world where people&monsters just exist, and are not divided by stat's mechanics

Off topic reference here. I had a player who's background was being trained by crazy Master Hate. Master Hate forced sorcery into his character through wildly cruel and unusual disciplinary measures. Master Hate's favorite was flinging a healing potion at his head (causing blunt and cutting damage) then as the potion from the bottle seeped into the wounds, they would heal up without a single physical scar--only the memory of the event.


That is AWESOME, it finally makes artificer healing MAKE SENSE, and I'm totally putting it into my houserules. Potions are no longer a thing to drink. They're all throwable puffballs. If you want to use one on yourself, just squeeze the puff over your head or slap it on your chest.

Now I really wanna make an Artificer that works this way.

[DHKase]

Also I have personally ruled that you can throw a healing surge at an ally(as a standard) and it will heal them(even if they are asleep) ...

Well you certainly opened up Pandora's box with that ruling there. The intent was good, but now the players are thinking about using it offensively, and itss not necessarily a bad thing.

Most monsters don't have healing abilities by design, so it's not too big of an issue there. They'll just waste their potions. If you have a plot important monster/npc and your worried that the PCs will deluge it in healing potion, you can turn the tables by saying it's healing abilities do not drain it's surges. There are some PC powers out there that do the same thing so there is precedent.

As for PvP, you could say 'This only works for allies,' if you aren't keen on letting your players use their potions as booby traps. They may complain, but if they know the alternative is that they wouldn't be able to use this house rule at all, then I'm sure they'll accept it. If you want to allow this, it will speed up the PvP encounter since there will be less healing available, so it's not an entirely bad thing.

[WickerNipple]

I don't have anything to add, I just wanted to say I love the concept of a trap that drops cheap crappy healing potions on someone's head.