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tedav
2014-02-21, 12:05 PM
I'm helping one of my friends with fleshing out a 3.5 campaign setting, and it occurred to me that a possible way to add some new interesting content would be to have a small enclave of mind flayers who raided an Illumian enclave, and decided to experiment on using Illumians for possible implantation.

I was thinking that their experiments could have been a success, and the result is mind flayers, but with some variant of the Illumian runes - and this confrontation would be made extra interesting, because they also captured all the items and intel that this Illumian enclave had collected.

My question is this:

Could someone come up with a nice homebrew template for Illithid Illumians?
I'm hostly looking for game rules, but if anyone wants to do additional worldbuilding, that would be great as well.

Zaydos
2014-02-22, 05:09 PM
Just how much do you want them to be different than a normal illithid and do you care if they're balanced against a normal illithid?

I mean you could give them a racial ability that gives them illumian sigils and says they get 1 less feat, but this would probably be stronger than a normal illithid. You could also give them say -1 psion level (if you are using the psionic variant) in exchange for sigils but this is probably weaker. Another option would be reducing spell resistance, but that would require more thought.

So any guidelines for how you want this?

tedav
2014-02-22, 05:22 PM
Well, I think, at least for the purpose of the plot of the campaign setting, it would make sense for them to be slightly stronger, but really, I just want them to be interesting.

I don't have much experience doing homebrew, so really, I'd defer to the better judgment of someone with more experience doing this.

Zaydos
2014-02-22, 05:59 PM
Well if you just gave them the Power Sigils and did nothing else they'd probably still be CR 8. Actually looking over the Power Sigils you could probably just give an illithid them flat-out with no noticeable increase in combat power. Most of them the combined ability requires spell slots/spells prepared (if you allowed them to use power points equal to the minimum to use a power of that level vaulaesh, vaulkrau, and uurhoon become slightly useful but none of them would be +1 CR). So if you just want a small change I'd suggest just slapping that on them and calling it a day.

For a more interesting change, swap 11 of their skill ranks for Truespeak, give them a +12 racial bonus to Truespeak checks, and utterances as a 9th level truespeaker instead of their psionics. This gives them a +27 on Truespeak checks (DC 31 :smallsigh: to affect 8th level creatures) and 9/2/1 utterances. This is probably a fair bit weaker than psionics even with the +12 racial bonus (although you could increase it to a +16 or even automatically pass truespeak checks and even then probably not compare to a psionic one willing to nova). But it could work rather well as an interesting fight especially if the two were mixed.

Xuldarinar
2014-02-22, 07:48 PM
The simplest routes would be to apply the half-illithid template to an Illumian, to swap psionics with utterances, or to apply their sigils to a mind flayer.

Really, it boils down to a simple question. Do non-human humans count as human for the purpose of becoming illithids, and does anything carry over or is everything overwritten? If they count as human for the process, then perhaps little to nothing is brought over, though perhaps there may be tendencies. If they don't count, then there is a template for that but a custom made creature may be more interesting.

The human races, to name a few, are Aventi, Azurin, Cynidicean, Human, Illumian, Karsite, Neanderthal, Sea Kin, Sharakim, Skulk, and Underfolk. This doesn't include hybrid races (such as half-elves), races that are mostly human (most planetouched for instance), and those that were changed from human and lost the human subtype (such as Vashar).

tedav
2014-02-22, 11:13 PM
My understanding was that the half-illithid template only occurs when a mind flayer larva was implanted into a reptilian humanoid, at which point the transformation is partial.

(and then if a half-ilithid ... mingles ... then you eventually get humanoids with traces of illithid heritage from many generations back)


Everything you guys said makes sense and those ideas are all serviceable, but hearing all of this, I think what I might want is a set of symbols with effects that impact psionics - basically, the symbols that used to apply to spells should have new names and be converted, the idea being that the illithid implantation into an Illumian had unexpected effects.

Zaydos
2014-02-22, 11:52 PM
Half-illithid template is weird. Notably illithid larvae originally worked on humans and approximately human sized and affected by charm person (2e that is) so medium-sized mammalian humanoids in the 3.X sense. Half-illithid template originated in a 3.0 FR book that could be applied to any corporeal creature that wasn't a construct. I do not know if this template/book mentions the illithid life cycle in any way. The 3.0 Fiend Folio then reprinted it but it now only applied to humanoids and stated that any non-human humanoid (so elves and hobgoblins) implanted with the larva became a half-illithid instead. Lords of Madness retconned this back to humans and near human humanoids (elves, hobgoblins, possibly dwarves, etc) become illithids with other humanoids becoming half-illithids. Me I'd say just feel free to apply half-illithid to whatever you find appropriate/interesting and keep most mammalian humanoids as full illithids.

As for the power sigils... hmm... I'll have to look at them again. A good number require prepared spells or turn attempts so it'll be a little tricky unless you take the easy out: "expend spell slot" becomes "expend power points equal to the minimum for a power of level" and "prepared spell" becomes "spend power points at start of day equal to minimum for a power of level". For example Naenkrau normally lets you leave 2 slots of different levels open to get +1 DC to spells of their levels. This would let you spend two bunches of X power points to get +1 DC to powers manifested for the same number of power points.

Actually looking at them that still leaves most useless because they: play off of physical stats, turn attempts, or multiclassing.

tedav
2014-02-23, 12:25 AM
Oh, I know the half-ilithid template could be applied more broadly than I suggested, but I care just as much about explaining the mechanics of the universe as I do coming up with a stat block, and based on the text accompanying that template, it really only made sense for the reptilian humanoids, like I described.

Well, I suppose it could occur for bungled ceremorphisis in humanoid-but-not-human cases, but that would be the exception, not the rule.

All the texts suggest the same things about mind-flayer transformation. You get 3 options: it doesn't work at all, it creates a mind-flayer, or it creates a specific weird thing. (several of the specific alternatives are detailed in Lords of Madness, and the half-ilithid template's flavor text suggested it was a similar case) I forget where I read the text about the half-ilithid being something that was reptilian specific, but I remember it looking really official.

I see what you mean about the power sigils.

Maybe the best way, (though definitely not the easiest) would be to come up with a completely new (if smaller) set of symbols, with the in-universe explanation being that the abberant minds of the illithids corrupted the [insert explanation here] of the Illumians.

Domriso
2014-02-23, 05:13 PM
The half-illithid template published in the Fiend Folio used a Lizardfolk as its base creature example, which might be where you mistook the only reptilian requirement.

As for the Illumian Mindflayer, here are my thoughts. If you look at the original article on the Illumians (located here (http://web.archive.org/web/20041207024604/http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041114b&page=2)), the sigils were originally supposed to be based on class, making them more intended to facilitate multiclassing (which is described in their race entry). If you're willing to work with those sigils (or wait for me to finish my rewrite), you'll see that there are some options for psionic characters inherent in the system.

If we assume that the Illumian's physiology and metaphysical essence messes with the natural ceremorphosis, then my contention would be that the resulting illithids would carry over this love of learning and acquisition of knowledge, which would naturally expand their focus of learning.

I imagine there would be many multiclassed illithids, probably many of them sticking with psionics. There's also the possibility that their natural connection with the elder brain might get messed up, because the metaphysical essence of Illumian's is that of learning, not of conquest (although there is some conquest left in them).

One of the more interesting aspects, in my opinion, would be the relationship with the Githyanki. Since the illithid's created the Gith-races as they are known today, and the Illumian's abhor the Githyanki for the destruction of their great library, I envision that the Illumithid's would have a special hatred for the Githyanki. Lucky for them, then, that they possess the ability to steal the knowledge of the Githyanki, potentially recovering some of that shared knowledge.

Then there is the case of relations with other Illumian's. While the Illithid's are most often xenophobic, it's likely that they would remain apart from the other Illumian's. On the other hand, other Illumian's would offer up the best option to gather new hosts, and would help feed their appetite for knowledge. Combine that with the Illumian's natural scheming, and you have a recipe for some amazing political machinations on the part of the Illumithid's.

afroakuma
2014-02-24, 11:30 PM
There's definite potential to the crossover. I'll leave you this little seed; I may be back to do more.

Whether for nourishment or procreation, mind flayers always seek out communities of humanoids to kidnap and exploit, and this group was no exception. Not a one among them particularly exceptional, nor was the hidden enclave from whence they crept. No, the only noteworthy element in an otherwise routine, if horrifying, event was the small community the predatory group descended upon.

When the first victim's brain resulted in psionic indigestion from its unfortunate consumer, the flayers realized they had happened upon something new, not altogether human. The troubling experience provoked them to learn more, and so they intruded psychically, invading the privacy and security of an illumian cabal.

tedav
2014-07-10, 09:19 AM
Wow, sorry for resurrecting a dead thread here, but this is the first time I've had a chance to check this page since the last post.

I really like the bit of introduction that was written, and would love if it got fleshed out a bit more. Mindflayers are abberations, and they are too often treated as completely natural (if evil) parts of the ecosystem, and not strange, powerful monsters, still expanding into a world that is also alien to them.

Thealtruistorc
2014-07-10, 11:52 AM
How about this: Illumians who are reborn as mind flayers retain the sigils they had in their previous life, which gives them a higher standing in illithid society. The elder brain contains all of the sigils, using every single combination with deadly ability. This also gives the elder brain the ability to bestow a sigil upon a mind flayer that it deems worthy. Mind Flayers who possess sigils can also pass them on to their spawn.

tedav
2014-07-13, 01:36 PM
Possibly, although the Elder Brain seems too powerful with that ability, especially once it has access to more than a few sigils.