Are Clerics MAD?

[Cikomyr]

Just thinking about playing a Cleric effectively, I was wondering if they are considered MAD even if they are also considered among the top tiered classes.

I mean, they are somewhat combat-focused, so they need Str/Con, or at least Dex for ranged. Their casting is Wis-based, and their Turn Undead is Cha-based.

Or their spellcasting can more than easily make up for bad stats in Cha, Str and Con?

[Juntao112]

You could just focus on casting alone and still have a powerful character.

[skyth]

Well, it depends on which god they worship if they are mad or not :)

[Diarmuid]

The thing about the cleric is that to do many of those things, they dont actually need to have the stats to support it.

For combat stuff, you're looking at DMM: Persisted Divine Power and Righteous Might

Turning is easily beefed up with a myriad of Feats, ACF's, PrC's, and Magic Items.

You can Pretty much stack Wis and then throw a little at Cha and Con and let magic take care of the rest.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Quite the opposite actually. They are considered SAD due to the fact they really only need Wis. Other stats are nice to have but you can have a powerful and effective character who compensates for all other deficiencies you may have from low ability scores via spells.

[Yanisa]

Just thinking about playing a Cleric effectively, I was wondering if they are considered MAD even if they are also considered among the top tiered classes.

I mean, they are somewhat combat-focused, so they need Str/Con, or at least Dex for ranged. Their casting is Wis-based, and their Turn Undead is Cha-based.

Or their spellcasting can more than easily make up for bad stats in Cha, Str and Con?

For Str/Con there are spells like Righteous Might (I could swear there was a level 1/2 version of that spell), Bull Strength, various other buffs. So a 12 is easily duable, a 14 might be better but cant win them all.
For Wis: many spells are buffs and don't need that high saves from wis, but because of Str/Con buff spells wisdom is the best stat to get max on.
For Cha: Turn undead is only against undead and very campaign/dm depended. Besides many spells the cleric get also work against undead, so again wisdom>charisma...

[Amphetryon]

Clerics don't really need STR in order to wade into combat beyond the lowest levels, because they have spells for that. Similarly, they don't really need DEX if Archery-focused, because they have spells for that. Additionally, note that there are several ways to get WIS and/or CHA to Hit/Damage rolls, further mitigating MAD.

CON helps everyone (Hit Points are good for you!) who doesn't go Undead, so I generally disregard CON when deciding how MAD a Class is. That said, Clerics can generally deal adequately with a relatively minimal investment in CON, particularly because they get a good FORT save.

Clerics need WIS, and, generally, CHA in order to function. A Cleric with rolls (before Race, etc.) of 15 (WIS), 14 (CHA), 12 (CON), 8 (DEX), 8 (INT), 8 (STR) is perfectly capable of performing well; relatively few other Classes - none below T3 - can make that claim on an 18 point buy.

[Red Fel]

Quite the opposite actually. They are considered SAD due to the fact they really only need Wis. Other stats are nice to have but you can have a powerful and effective character who compensates for all other deficiencies you may have from low ability scores via spells.

In many ways, this is true. A Cleric is a spellcaster on a melee chassis; like other Tier 1 spellcasters, it can augment its combat abilities dramatically even without the stats for them. For example, Divine Favor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divineFavor.htm) grants you a bonus on attack and damage rolls; Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) guarantees you max BAB, along with a big Str boost and bonus HP; and Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm) makes you Large, gives you a bonus to Str and Con, and grants natural armor and DR.

These three spells can take even the squishiest Cleric and make him into a menacing melee monstrosity. And that's before you even look at other avenues of absurd optimization. And these spells don't even require substantial attribute investment - Divine Favor is a first-level spell, Divine Power is fourth, and Righteous Might is fifth. That means, to be able to cast all three, you need only 15 Wis. That's not hard to achieve with even minimal optimization, and leaves plenty of room for physical stats if you so desire.

Clerics are only MAD on paper; really, all they need to be is capable spellcasters in order to be capable at everything.

[JaronK]

Indeed, Clerics really only need Wisdom. If they want to be archers, Zen Archery keeps them in Wisdom. Want to melee? Divine Power gives them the strength they want anyway. Need more Turn attempts? Nightsticks are cheap, and Planning Domain can handle that.

JaronK

[Gwendol]

No, but the better the stats the more versatile they become.

[Sam K]

Quite the opposite of MAD; they only NEED wis, but they can benefit from every other stat. But wis 15 (ish) everything else sub-10 cleric can still do well. No dependency but all the benefits if you manage to roll all 18s.

Fair and balanced, people, fair and balanced!

[Story]

and leaves plenty of room for physical stats if you so desire.


Ha, silly Clerics actually caring about physical stats. They don't even get Polymorph (though they get Shapechange I guess). Then again, they do at least get full BAB, unlike those poor 40 str Wizards that still only make one attack a round.

[khachaturian]

also, unlike a wizard, you are less likely to be casting spells with saving throws, making even wisdom becomes less important. of course, you will eventually need a 19 for level 9 spells, and bonus spells are always great... but if you are primarily buffing and hitting things, not as big of a deal

[Telonius]

If you're really worried about hitting in melee, there's the Intuitive Attack feat from BoED to get Wis to hit.

[Theomniadept]

Wisdom --> whatever --> magic --> win the game.

Not really MAD; they're like Wizards who need Int and then invest in Con, whereas Cleric take it a step further with Charisma and Strength, but only enough strength to make sure heavy armor doesn't encumber them so badly they cannot move. The Charisma thing is also completely optional since it only really powers Turn Undead and thus only really matters if you're going for some heavy DMM investment.

[Divide by Zero]

Really, they're pretty much the opposite of MAD. Not only are they perfectly capable of breaking the game with only one high stat, but they still benefit from higher values in other stats. For instance, a wizard gains almost nothing from Str and relatively little from Wis/Cha, so they don't benefit nearly as much from high rolls or point buy as a cleric would while still being at a similar level of power and flexibility at lower stat totals.

Only class I can think of that's less MAD than a cleric is maybe a warlock, since they're technically functional with straight 3's.

[Ravens_cry]

Wisdom --> whatever --> magic --> win the game.

Not really MAD; they're like Wizards who need Int and then invest in Con, whereas Cleric take it a step further with Charisma and Strength, but only enough strength to make sure heavy armor doesn't encumber them so badly they cannot move. The Charisma thing is also completely optional since it only really powers Turn Undead and thus only really matters if you're going for some heavy DMM investment.
Which you will be if you are going the Divine Metamagic route, especially if your DM makes some sane houserules about Nightsticks.
I'd say they are the MADdest of the Tier 1 classes at least. Druids replace their physical stats, while clerics improve what they have, which means it is worth it to give at least a little to those scores first.

[Necroticplague]

Ha, silly Clerics actually caring about physical stats. They don't even get Polymorph (though they get Shapechange I guess). Then again, they do at least get full BAB, unlike those poor 40 str Wizards that still only make one attack a round.

Transmutation domain. Nope, not any more.

[Story]

Transmutation domain. Nope, not any more.

I assume you're referring to the Transformation Domain from Races of Eberron? Anyway, nice catch! I've never heard of that one.

Edit: No Draconic Polymorph though, and that's the one you really want for persist spell gishing. But it's non core and thus exponentially less likely to show up on domain lists.

[killem2]

Not... exactly. Due to the nature of the stupid powerful spells they can get, you can fix your BAB and any low strength you might have.

So, really you can just focus on wisdom,