The Hazard Type

[Fax Celestis]

As brought up in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=332094), the concept of a new "creature" type--Hazard--reserved for traps and environmental effects that aren't creatures but should get treated like one for the purposes of adjudicating game mechanics was brought up. I'm trying to piece together what exactly this type does. This is what I have so far:

Hazard Type
Hazards are environmental dangers or traps that aren't technically creatures. A fire, flood, avalanche, or similar environmental danger is an example of a hazard.

Hazard Features
A hazard has the following features:
8-sided Hit Dice
Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 Hit Dice (as cleric)
Poor saving throws in all categories
No skill points or feats (as it is mindless)


Hazard Traits
A hazard possesses all of the following traits (unless otherwise noted in its descriptive entry):
No ability scores
Immunity to ability damage, ability drain, blinding, critical hits, dazing, dazzling, death effects, deafening, death effects, disabling, disease, energy drain, exhaustion, fascination, fatigue, fear effects, flanking, grappling, knocking down, mind-affecting effects, nausea, nonlethal damage, paralysis, petrification, poison, polymorph, sickening, staggering, stun, tripping, unconsciousness, and weapon damage.
Immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless.
Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities.
Proficient with its natural weapon and any weapons or attacks listed in its entry.
Hazards do not breathe, eat, or sleep.




Since this is a pretty awkward piece of game mechanics, I'm looking for any and all advice as to how to make this more fluid and easy to use from an end-user perspective.

[G.Cube]

Not helpful in the least, but I already want a playable Hazard race.

[hemming]

I think implementing a rule about how hazards spread/advance would be a benefit -

maybe something like - hazards advance 10-15 ft each round in a single direction; hazards have a cone shape from the point(s) of origin

I think it would work for avalanches, wildfires and floods

Need to include some common sense rule about hazards ceasing movement at natural barriers

[Yanisa]

Not helpful in the least, but I already want a playable Hazard race.

Imaging: Awakened Avalanche.



On a more serious note I did note a lack of spell resistance or immunity to elemental damage. I assume this needs to be addressed by individual "creatures" but as it stands it leads to the idea that every hazard can be destroyed by a fireball. It leads to a lot more exception within individual hazards, sort of like golems. where in all golems are immune to magic, but some spells do work and work differently. And with list upon list of exception, is is really worth to make them a "creature" type? You are probably better stating things that do work. (Especially if you want to include traps. Some traps are just strings, others are just pits and a lot are just spells waiting to be triggered...)

Besides that, my best advise is to show off a couple of hazards. The best way to see if it can work is by adapting it.

[Yanisa]

So following my own advise, I present you guys with a Hazard Type Creature. I asked my friend for the most feared natural hazard and she replied with:

Gas (CR 1)
Neutral Medium Hazard
Init -5 (-5 Dex)

AC 5 FF 10 Touch 5
(-5 Dex)
HD: 1
HP: 5 (1d8)
Fort -5 Ref -5 Will -5

Speed Spread 5 ft. (1 square)
Base Atk -5 Grp -5
Attack: Gas Attack (1 acid + choke)
Special Attacks: Distraction
Special Qualities: Hazard Traits, Immunity to magic, Spread, Source, Vaporize, Combustion, Transparent
Space 5 ft. (1 squares) Reach 0 ft. (0 squares)

Abilities Str -- Dex -- Con -- Int -- Wis -- Cha --

Gas Attack (Ex): Gas deals automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed.
Choke (Ex): Whenever a creature is damaged the creature beginsd to choke. Treat this as drowning.

Hazard Traits (Ex)
Immunity to Magic (Ex): Gas is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.
Any spells that deals fire damage triggers the Combustion ability
A Gust of Wind disperses the gas, making it harmless.
Distraction (Ex): Any living creature that begins its turn with gas in its space must succeed on a DC 11 Fortitude save or be nauseated for 1 round. The save DC is HD-based.
Spread (Ex): On its turn gas spreads to a random square in a random direction (roll 1d8) as if its sized space grew 5ft. Gas can spread up to a maximum of one square/HD + one square for the source.
Source (Ex): Every Gas has a source. The square the source is permanently filled with gas, unless the source is plugged, then all remaining gas is subject to vaporize. If gas in the square of the source gets disperses or removed, it fill refill after 1 round. If gas in the square of source is ignited, treat it as the fire hazard instead.
Vaporize (Ex): Gas away more then 1 square per HD start to vaporize, staying for only 1 round/hd. Gas can only vaporize when there is a steady air flow and enough access to free air (at least twice the amount of squares without gas then with gas)
Combustion (Ex): Whenever gas gets damaged by at least 1 point of fire it ignites. Anyone standing in a square of gas instantly gets 1d6 damage and are on fire. Creature within 5 ft of gas take 1d3 damage and must succeed on a DC 11 Reflex save or be on fire. This changes the gas hazard into a fire hazard.
Transparent (Ex): Gas is hard to see, even under ideal conditions, and it takes a DC 15 Spot or Survival check to notice it. Creatures who fail to notice gas and walk into an square filled with gas are instantly damaged as if the gas had a surprise round...



I am pretty sure this does not cover all of it, but I am far from a monster building expert, let alone hazards, weird mechanics. Besides it's late and I am tired. You guys can expend on it and/or point out flaws.

Fun fact: I used bits from Animated Objects, Golems, Oozes and Swams to make this bugger.

But does it really help that it is a creature? At one side the scaling is the part I was most proud of, but that can easily also be done based on the CR of the hazard. Then again it having an initiative does help build some suspense. Suddenly the PCs need to act in order, someone can be caught unaware, some DM use chess-clocks mechanics to limit thinking time, chaos!. Plus being a creature gives it an easier mechanic to move(?). I still feel it could have been a non creature just fine. Either way its a complicated piece of work... Creature or not.

It ain't smooth but that is mostly because every hazard is unique and is filled to the brim with unique scenarios, the basic template works well. I guess... I was fun building at least, I hope you guys enjoy it. (Or at least giggle immaturely at the idea of deadly Gas)

I am off to bed.

[Jeff the Green]

I don't know that they should necessarily have no ability scores. An avalanche, for example, might have a strength score.

[weckar]

How would Templates interact with the Hazard-type?

[Telonius]

So, one of these (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20100609)? :smallbiggrin:

A bit more seriously, it's not really all that clear to me that "Hazard" would be different enough from "Trap," mechanically speaking, to justify a whole new creature type. The big differences between the two that I see, would be that instead of a fixed location, a Hazard is (potentially, anyway) mobile, and can't really be disarmed. (I don't see how you'd use "Disable Device" or similar on an avalanche or a fire). I could even see using a Survival check (instead of a Search check) to detect or avoid the Hazard.

[weckar]

Could hazards be polymorphed as creatures? could creatures polymorph into hazards?

[Fax Celestis]

Could hazards be polymorphed as creatures? could creatures polymorph into hazards?

Note the type immunities.

[weckar]

Does immunity to polymorph prevent being polymorphed INTO?

[nedz]

Can a Fiend of Possession possess one of these ?

What happens if they can and do ?

[Fax Celestis]

Does immunity to polymorph prevent being polymorphed INTO?

I have no idea. I've never really thought about it like that before.


Can a Fiend of Possession possess one of these ?

What happens if they can and do ?

I feel like that's a question that comes up with Fiend of Possession all the time. I can put in a type-based immunity to possession.

[Yanisa]

A bit more seriously, it's not really all that clear to me that "Hazard" would be different enough from "Trap," mechanically speaking, to justify a whole new creature type. The big differences between the two that I see, would be that instead of a fixed location, a Hazard is (potentially, anyway) mobile, and can't really be disarmed. (I don't see how you'd use "Disable Device" or similar on an avalanche or a fire).

Then again, there are kinda traps for some of these.
Gas(Poison) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#gas), Gas(Acid Cloud) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#cr7AcidFogTrap), Avalanche (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#cr5FallingBlockTrap), Flood (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#cr7WaterFilledRoom), Fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#cr9IncendiaryCloudTrap)

There is still a lot of difference, being a creature type especially the movement, like you mentioned, makes the big difference. Mechanics like spread are really hard to do without complicating to trap, but far easier when its a type of movement. Which leads to point two; it also us, the hazard makers, to cram a lot more details in it. Traps are designed to simple, barely 2 lines of text explaining what the trap does.


I could even see using a Survival check (instead of a Search check) to detect or avoid the Hazard.
Sounds logical, I edit that one in.



Does immunity to polymorph prevent being polymorphed INTO?

I like to yes, but you can not polymorph back to your original form.

Then again most of the hazards listed so far can be simulated by existing spells... Like fire, flood (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/elemental-body), avalanche (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fleshToStone.htm), gas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gaseousForm.htm). It wouldn't be that weird or new for wizards.

[eggynack]

A bit more seriously, it's not really all that clear to me that "Hazard" would be different enough from "Trap," mechanically speaking, to justify a whole new creature type. The big differences between the two that I see, would be that instead of a fixed location, a Hazard is (potentially, anyway) mobile, and can't really be disarmed. (I don't see how you'd use "Disable Device" or similar on an avalanche or a fire). I could even see using a Survival check (instead of a Search check) to detect or avoid the Hazard.
But, y'know, traps are occasionally made somewhat monster-like too, in particular in the case of encounter traps. It might actually be worth looking to that for inspiration, skipping the part where hazard has a "type", and just giving them stat blocks, and setting up rules for dealing with them.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

So, one of these (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20100609)? :smallbiggrin:

A bit more seriously, it's not really all that clear to me that "Hazard" would be different enough from "Trap," mechanically speaking, to justify a whole new creature type. The big differences between the two that I see, would be that instead of a fixed location, a Hazard is (potentially, anyway) mobile, and can't really be disarmed. (I don't see how you'd use "Disable Device" or similar on an avalanche or a fire). I could even see using a Survival check (instead of a Search check) to detect or avoid the Hazard.

I feel the same. An uncovered and obvious hole in the floor already has a CR and associated experience point reward by RAW. Why complicate things?

The only real difference between a trap and a dungeon feature is whether a bypass exists. Bad weather that makes frozen ice is easily a trap (Disable Device to make sure you put sand everywhere a party member might slip). A pool of lava is a trap (Disable Device to knock down a pillar that diverts the flow and leaves a cooled patch you can walk on). Not much sense in statting up hazards differently than traps.

http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/traps.htm

[TuggyNE]

I feel the same. An uncovered and obvious hole in the floor already has a CR and associated experience point reward by RAW. Why complicate things?

The only real difference between a trap and a dungeon feature is whether a bypass exists. Bad weather that makes frozen ice is easily a trap (Disable Device to make sure you put sand everywhere a party member might slip). A pool of lava is a trap (Disable Device to knock down a pillar that diverts the flow and leaves a cooled patch you can walk on). Not much sense in statting up hazards differently than traps.

Those are bad examples, since they would not likely be statted up as Hazards by this proposal anyway. Some of them are also bad examples because the suggestions for using DD on them make no sense (a tough DD roll to spread sand properly? yeah, no).

Instead, Hazard is intended for things like forest fires, gasses, and the like: stuff that moves around much more than the usual static terrain, can perhaps grow and shrink, and is sort of vaguely creatureish because of that. If there's a problem with those uses, bring it up, but don't criticize the proposal based on what it isn't going to be used for.

[Yanisa]

Those are bad examples, since they would not likely be statted up as Hazards by this proposal anyway. Some of them are also bad examples because the suggestions for using DD on them make no sense (a tough DD roll to spread sand properly? yeah, no).

Instead, Hazard is intended for things like forest fires, gasses, and the like: stuff that moves around much more than the usual static terrain, can perhaps grow and shrink, and is sort of vaguely creatureish because of that. If there's a problem with those uses, bring it up, but don't criticize the proposal based on what it isn't going to be used for.

Yeah, there is some difference, hard to pinpoint but I am going to take a stab at it anyways. I hope I get the right spirit.

Trap: Static Fire, Lava, Explosion (Static)
Hazard: Spreading Fire, Forest Fire, Burning Building (Spreading, movement)

Trap: Falling rocks (only happens once)
Hazard: Avalanche (happens in waves, could have a listen check to trigger)

Trap: Room filling with water (static, limited water, doesn't do a lot except slowly increasing the chance to drown)
Hazard: Flood/Tsunami/Stormy Water (happens in waves/rounds, attacks in a sense)

Trap: Gas sprayed in your face due a mechanism (Static)
Hazard: Natural Gas spreading out, like mine gas (Spread)

Trap: Permanent gust of wind spell (Static, comes from one source)
Hazard: Tornado (Has movement, attacks in a sense)

Trap: Pit, Quicksand (static)
Hazard: Growing sinkhole (Movement, spreading)


I still feel the creature type might be too complicated for hazards due the loads of exceptions, although it does inspired me to use certain creature like abilities, like for example fire and gas would deal damage like a swarm and the golem spell immunity allows specific spells to have certain effects on hazards that aren't specified in the spell it self.
Also having some sort of armor and hp could make interesting mechanics, like using buckets of water against fire. Initiative adds the pressure otherwise lacking in a burning building (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0243.html) and with HD you can scale damage, saves and effects easier then CR, so you won't get the "fire is only 1d6 damage"-effect.
So the creature type might bet the best bet, I guess.

Still where the creature type sorta works, traps don't fit at all. Most hazards aren't triggered events, don't have proximities and resets clauses, but are natural things that can occur. Some things are similar to traps, but hazards are too complicated to fit the trap template.

[hemming]

Yanisa - the build you posted earlier made me want to give it a try

-----------------------------

Avalanche
Neutral Medium Hazard
Init 0

AC 10 FF 10 Touch 10

HD: 1
HP: 5 (1d8)
Fort 0 Ref 0 Will 0

Speed Spread 30 ft.
Base Atk 0 Grp 0
Attack: Slam Attack (1D6)
Special Attacks: Engulf
Special Qualities: Hazard Traits; Immunity to Cold; Immunity to Electricity; Vulnerability to Fire; Advancing Spread; Deadly Momentum; Combining Force; Move Dependant
Space 5 ft. (1 squares) Reach 0 ft. (0 squares)

Abilities Str -- Dex -- Con -- Int -- Wis -- Cha --

Slam Attack (Ex): Avalanches deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed.
Engulf (Ex): Opponents hit by an avalanche's slam attack become engulfed. DC10 Reflex save to avoid. The DC for this save increases by one for each square occupied by the avalanche. Engulfed opponents are treated as drowning and are buried under one foot of snow per square occupied by the avalanche. A DC20 Strength check or DC25 escape artist is required every 5 feet to escape.

Hazard Traits (Ex)
Advancing Spread (Ex): On its turn an avalanche advances as a cone in a single direction from the point or points of origin. At the end of its movement each turn, an avalanche occupies all squares at the edge of the cone farthest from the point of origin.
Deadly Momentum (Ex): Each square occupied by an avalanche increases HD by 1 and Slam Attack damage by 1D6.
Combining Force (Ex): If one or more avalanches intersect they continue to travel out from their respective points of origin but are treated as a single avalanche for all other purposes.
Move Dependent (Ex): An avalanche occupying one square can only travel down a slope of 45 degrees or greater. For each additional square occupied by the avalanche the slope requirements decreases by one degree, to a maximum of 15 degrees for an avalanche occupying 30 squares. An avalanche that is not able to move is rendered inert and no long capable of dealing damage.

[Jeff the Green]

I don't think a medium avalanche would be that much of a threat. :smalltongue: Also, it's saves should at a minimum be +0 since null abilities don't give modifiers.

Another problem I saw: wouldn't immunity to polymorph also make it immune to PAO? I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would be a single object for PAO's purposes, but I'm sure there is one. Maybe "treated as an object for the determining polymorph effects."

[zlefin]

how would this interact with the hazard rules currently in the game?

ex:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#forestFiresCr6
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#avalanchesCr7

[hemming]

how would this interact with the hazard rules currently in the game?

ex:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#forestFiresCr6
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/wilderness.htm#avalanchesCr7

It would act as a variant rule

[hemming]

I don't think a medium avalanche would be that much of a threat. :smalltongue:

Yeah - at first I tried giving it an attack that would not vary with the # of spaces occupied, but it seemed really ridiculous to have the guy 5 feet away take 8D6 from the snow rolling over his shoes (granted, its still pretty ridiculous to have him take 1D6)


Also, it's saves should at a minimum be +0 since null abilities don't give modifiers.

-About to edit


Another problem I saw: wouldn't immunity to polymorph also make it immune to PAO? I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would be a single object for PAO's purposes, but I'm sure there is one. Maybe "treated as an object for the determining polymorph effects."

I think the types of disasters we are talking about should be immune to PAO