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weckar

2014-02-21, 07:59 PM

Deophaun

2014-02-21, 08:01 PM

I need to ask: how did he get an AC of 5? Did he forget to add 10 to his Dex and Wis modifier?

BornValyrian

2014-02-21, 08:02 PM

How in the world is his AC 5?

Edit: and ninja'd

weckar

2014-02-21, 08:02 PM

My bad, that was a typo. I meant 11 XD

It's still disastrous, though.

Theomniadept

2014-02-21, 08:03 PM

How in the Sam Hill does this guy have 5 AC when the base is 10? Just to confirm, you do in fact know how AC works, right? According to the AC of 5, this guy has a Dexterity of 1 and a Wisdom of no more than 11.

EDIT: that was the fastest Ninja Swordsage'd I've ever seen.

weckar

2014-02-21, 08:04 PM

He gets a base 10, +1 from Dex, +0 from Wis.

Alent

2014-02-21, 08:04 PM

... AC of 5? holy Thaczed batman. Make him take off the armor that's encumbering him and shutting of his class features.

Seerow

2014-02-21, 08:08 PM

My bad, that was a typo. I meant 11 XD

It's still disastrous, though.

Tell him to reroll.

Seriously. If he rolled an orc monk with no wis or dex, it seems to me like what he's actually looking for is something that isn't a monk, but just wanted unarmed damage. Let him play a Barbarian with Superior Unarmed Strike or something, and you'll both be happier for it.

Ziegander

2014-02-21, 08:08 PM

So you're saying that he's got a +1 Dex modifier and +0 Wisdom? And he's a Monk, right? If he insists on this folly, yes he either will not be able to have either class features or AC. At low levels there will be nothing he can do. At higher levels it's going to be really expensive... if he survives til then.

Deophaun

2014-02-21, 08:09 PM

Well, in that case, it's time for him to give up his movement speed and get some light armor.

Really, if his stats were that poor, he probably shouldn't have gone with the MAD monk.

Ziegander

2014-02-21, 08:11 PM

Well, in that case, it's time for him to give up his movement speed and get some light armor.

Really, if his stats were that poor, he probably shouldn't have gone with the MAD monk.

Unfortunately things aren't that easy for him. If he puts armor on he loses almost all if his class features.

Telonius

2014-02-21, 08:12 PM

He gets a base 10, +1 from Dex, +0 from Wis.
... yeah, that's your problem. What are the rest of his ability scores? (And did he roll, or do point buy?) Because that's just absurdly low. I know Monk is MAD, but Wisdom at least is usually prioritized. If he's put everything into Str and Con, that's something else entirely, but I'm thinking Half-Orc, and both Int and Cha are bound to be pretty low.

If the rest are as low as I'm thinking they are, just let him re-roll or re-arrange his point buy.

eggynack

2014-02-21, 08:12 PM

Well, in that case, it's time for him to give up his movement speed and get some light armor.

Or he could do the opposite, giving up on AC and relying on high movement speed plus ranged weapons to hit stuff without being hit. It's kinda bad, but it's better than being stabbed in the face and dying immediately.

Seerow

2014-02-21, 08:13 PM

Or he could do the opposite, giving up on AC and relying on high movement speed plus ranged weapons to hit stuff without being hit. It's kinda bad, but it's better than being stabbed in the face and dying immediately.

With no dex or wis he's not going to be doing any good with ranged weapons.

weckar

2014-02-21, 08:14 PM

Nirhael

2014-02-21, 08:16 PM

That's a soon-to-be-dead or useless Monk then, not much you can do to "fix" it short of DM fiat.

Dienekes

2014-02-21, 08:16 PM

Can we get a more in depth look at his stats, level, well all of his character sheet really? It could give us some help.

Though, truth be told, the Monk is generally considered one of, if not the, worst player classes in the game. It can be optimized for, but it's hard, and generally requires higher stats than +0 in Wis.

Hmm, swordsaged a bit.

His best roll was a 14, which went into STR. DEX is his second best, WIS his third. Con is +0 as well and both INT and CHA are -1. After Racial Adjustments, that makes his STR a +3, but otherwise it's not much.

He didn't qualify for a reroll, and we take that rule seriously.

This is why rolling for stats is silly and I dislike it.

turkishproverb

2014-02-21, 08:18 PM

Start by getting the ork a ring of blinking. It helps a lot against ranged attacks. After that go for Stat-boosting items and spells. Even then, I'd not count on living long.

eggynack

2014-02-21, 08:18 PM

With no dex or wis he's not going to be doing any good with ranged weapons.
True, but y'know, he might not die. There's basically no good outcome here. I suppose he could wear leather or padded armor, and beat people over the head with a stick of some variety, but a monk with 13 AC isn't that much better than one with 11 AC, and he'll still get stabbed in the face a lot and be pretty ineffectual. The goal here is not dying, though perhaps the goal should be not not dying, such that he can roll something different.

weckar

2014-02-21, 08:18 PM

Qc Storm

2014-02-21, 08:19 PM

His best roll was a 14, which went into STR. DEX is his second best, WIS his third. Con is +0 as well and both INT and CHA are -1. After Racial Adjustments, that makes his STR a +3, but otherwise it's not much.

He didn't qualify for a reroll, and we take that rule seriously.

How does he fare, stat-wise, compared to the party?

Going Monk when you have bad stats is like shaving with tweezers. Unrelated, but painful.

weckar

2014-02-21, 08:21 PM

His stats are not the worst in the party (that's the barbarian) but close. The wizard was the one who got the best rolls by far (landed 2 18s and a 17, making her more effective in melee than the monk...).

Dienekes

2014-02-21, 08:22 PM

I don't have his character sheet, sorry.

He has Improved initiative and Stunning Fist as his feats, I remember that much. He fights barefisted.

Also, low on money and can I remind everyone that monks don't get armor proficiency??

With a character this screwed they have to suck it up and take the penalties if they want to live. It's not like you suddenly can't put armor on without the proficiency.

His stats are not the worst in the party (that's the barbarian) but close. The wizard was the one who got the best rolls by far (landed 2 18s and a 17, making her more effective in melee than the monk...).

Again. I so, so, so despise rolling for stats. The one class that absolutely does not need the stats gets it.

eggynack

2014-02-21, 08:22 PM

Also, low on money and can I remind everyone that monks don't get armor proficiency??
Doesn't mean they can't wear armor, and if the armor lacks ACP, then you lacking proficiency is kinda meaningless.

Theomniadept

2014-02-21, 08:23 PM

His best roll was a 14, which went into STR. DEX is his second best, WIS his third. Con is +0 as well and both INT and CHA are -1. After Racial Adjustments, that makes his STR a +3, but otherwise it's not much.

He didn't qualify for a reroll, and we take that rule seriously.
That's a terrible rule to take seriously. Without at least one 16 you can't play a viable character. My advice is allow a reroll and use the 5d6 drop 2 method, 7 times, dropping 1 set. Seriously, the 4d6 method even rerolling below 11 is just absurdly low. The 'rules' for stats are just terrible themselves and needed a revision that never came.

Qc Storm

2014-02-21, 08:23 PM

Ziegander

2014-02-21, 08:23 PM

His best roll was a 14, which went into STR. DEX is his second best, WIS his third. Con is +0 as well and both INT and CHA are -1. After Racial Adjustments, that makes his STR a +3, but otherwise it's not much.

He didn't qualify for a reroll, and we take that rule seriously.

So his rolls had to be Str 14, Dex 12 or 13, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 11, and Cha 10.

That's an average of barely over 11. That definitely qualifies for a reroll even if you're being strict about that.

Seerow

2014-02-21, 08:24 PM

His best roll was a 14, which went into STR. DEX is his second best, WIS his third. Con is +0 as well and both INT and CHA are -1. After Racial Adjustments, that makes his STR a +3, but otherwise it's not much.

He didn't qualify for a reroll, and we take that rule seriously.

You realize there are rules for rerolling when a character's total stat value falls below a certain line. I'm nearly certain that 14/12/10 as your 3 best stats easily qualifies for that.

Basically you have this poor guy playing with a class that is the worst in the game in the best of circumstances and is absurdly MAD with a stat array worse than an average NPC. Of course he's useless.

Just put him out of his misery, and let him start fresh. This isn't salvagable short of throwing him a couple of artifact level items.

eggynack

2014-02-21, 08:26 PM

Without at least one 16 you can't play a viable character.
I disagree. You just can't play a viable monk. There are a few classes, mostly casters and warlocks, that can do fine with those stats. I tend to prefer druids, as they get both an animal companion and wild shape in addition to their mostly not stat reliant casting, and those things have the same stats regardless of your base stats.

weckar

2014-02-21, 08:26 PM

You realize there are rules for rerolling when a character's total stat value falls below a certain line. I'm nearly certain that 14/12/10 as your 3 best stats easily qualifies for that.

The reroll rule is that a reroll is granted if the total ability modifier is negative. His is +1, as is the Barbarian's.

Divide by Zero

2014-02-21, 08:28 PM

He didn't qualify for a reroll, and we take that rule seriously.

Rule 0: the DM can do whatever they want.
Rule 0.5: the point of a game is to have fun.

It's hard to have fun when you're too afraid of your character dying to do anything, so it's the DM's job to fix things so it's fun again. Sometimes that means changing/ignoring other rules, especially if they're stupid.

weckar

2014-02-21, 08:29 PM

Just for transparency: The Wizard (elf) is definitely an outlier. Most rolls were just mediocre all around the table for stats. And this wizard doesn't know how to play a wizard well, so she's hardly the issue.

The rest of the party (in order of stats) is:

Human Barbarian
Shifter Cleric
Dwarf Rogue
Warforged Warblade

Rule 0.5: the point of a game is to have fun.
He's oddly probably having the most fun at the table out of anyone. He just has some bad combat times.

Seerow

2014-02-21, 08:32 PM

The reroll rule is that a reroll is granted if the total ability modifier is negative. His is +1, as is the Barbarian's.

Then here's what happens.

Character goes and jumps off the nearest cliff (he'd stab himself but he has a fair chance of failing at that), and rolls a new character. New character just barely meets the +1 minimum? Into the cliff he goes.

Repeat until you either get a playable array, or give up on playing a monk and decide to just play a Wizard Cleric or Druid and not care about your stats.

weckar

2014-02-21, 08:33 PM

Seerow, here's the part you seem to be missing: He wouldn't let that happen. He likes playing the character.

Dienekes

2014-02-21, 08:35 PM

While Seerow is a bit extreme, on an optimization level there really isn't a whole lot we can do for him. Though, if ToB is on the table maybe pointing him in the direction of an Unarmed Swordsage couldn't hurt. That'd at least give him light armor proficiency and I'm sure there are some maneuvers that'll help his survivability.

eggynack

2014-02-21, 08:36 PM

Seerow, here's the part you seem to be missing: He wouldn't let that happen. He likes playing the character.
Then let him. There's not much you or he can do to make him better, and if he's fine with that then it is what it is. You can have him pick up some AC boosting items, because those'll help, but it's almost certainly not enough. If he doesn't care about being good at stuff, he can stay like this. If he does, he probably can't. Such is the nature of things.

Theomniadept

2014-02-21, 08:36 PM

I disagree. You just can't play a viable monk. There are a few classes, mostly casters and warlocks, that can do fine with those stats. I tend to prefer druids, as they get both an animal companion and wild shape in addition to their mostly not stat reliant casting, and those things have the same stats regardless of your base stats.

I didn't want to say monk wasn't viable due to the fact that some shenanigans can make it viable (Drunken Master + 2-handed starmetal enchanted chair = flurry of 2d8+1d12+1.5*str per hit) but let's face it, without one good crux stat you just can't play the game.

weckar, just let the guy reroll stats without losing the character. Seriously, the player will have exactly zero fun when he can do nothing at all.

weckar

2014-02-21, 08:37 PM

Alent

2014-02-21, 08:37 PM

Seerow, here's the part you seem to be missing: He wouldn't let that happen. He likes playing the character.

I think Seerow is attempting to anticipate a passive-aggressive behavior cycle that is fairly common.

It is kind of wierd for him to be enjoying the character despite sucking in combat, he must be an unusually good sport. I have a player in my group who will literally do demon summoning rituals to form a pact with a greater devil to make his monks suck less.

Monk players tend to do questionable things, like play monk.

If he's really enjoying the character, you might throw a monk reach weapon or two his way. They don't cost much, but they can get him out of harm's way while he gets the +wis gear to offset his stat fail.

weckar

2014-02-21, 08:39 PM

(...) you might throw a monk reach weapon or two his way. They don't cost much, but they can get him out of harm's way while he gets the +wis gear to offset his stat fail.

That's actually a pretty good idea! I didn't know monks had any reach weapons available.

Theomniadept

2014-02-21, 08:39 PM

Alent

2014-02-21, 08:41 PM

That's actually a pretty good idea! I didn't know monks had any reach weapons available.

There's a variety of weapons labeled as monk weapons, including Shuriken. Check the weapons section on the SRD.

weckar

2014-02-21, 08:41 PM

Dienekes

2014-02-21, 08:43 PM

Theomniadept

2014-02-21, 08:44 PM

There is no reason he would think he's being hijacked. Unless you're playing with young children the players know from experience what their characters can do and cannot do.

You have a wizard, a tier 1 class, with 3 insanely good scores. You have a monk, a tier 5 borderline tier 6 class with scores I wouldn't even give to a commoner. If this isn't rectified you'll get to watch him lose that character he loves to play to a thing called being dead.

Seerow

2014-02-21, 08:44 PM

eggynack

2014-02-21, 08:44 PM

But let's face it, without one good crux stat you just can't play the game.
Yes, you can. That's my point. A druid with all 10's an 11's can potentially be perfectly viable, and if you actually optimize, you can be downright overpowered. I mean, you pick up anthro bat and dragon born, and all of a sudden you're running 17 wisdom and 13 constitution. Try calling that unplayable. Even without that though, sticking with a human, you can still be perfectly fine, and can still easily overpower other reasonably statted characters in the party. Because druid. You can't cast 2nd level spells at 3rd level, but apart from that you can cast all of your spells on time. A monk needs high stats to be playable, and even then he'll still be downright bad in most parties (in optimization terms anyway). Not every class does.

weckar

2014-02-21, 08:49 PM

Theomniadept

2014-02-21, 08:49 PM

Yes, you can. That's my point. A druid with all 10's an 11's can potentially be perfectly viable, and if you actually optimize, you can be downright overpowered. I mean, you pick up anthro bat and dragon born, and all of a sudden you're running 17 wisdom and 13 constitution. Try calling that unplayable. Even without that though, sticking with a human, you can still be perfectly fine, and can still easily overpower other reasonably statted characters in the party. Because druid. You can't cast 2nd level spells at 3rd level, but apart from that you can cast all of your spells on time. A monk needs high stats to be playable, and even then he'll still be downright bad in most parties (in optimization terms anyway). Not every class does.
True, but you're talking about a guy who actually replaces his stats, and Druid's the only one that can do that, especially getting stuff from non-spellcasting variants. If your highest stat is a 12 you're not doing anything at all that's impressive, especially below tier 3.

We're talking about a monk. Monk, the base class worse than Expert and Adept. This guy could have all 18s and still lose to the all 11 Druid.

Gavinfoxx

2014-02-21, 08:51 PM

Change his class to this?

Whirling Frenzy [System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana] or Ferocity [Cityscape Web Enhancement]) Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion), Wolf Totem (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana; if you get this, consider getting things like Knock-down [System Resource Document] or other trip-based options) Barbarian. Also take Skilled City Dweller-ride for tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement), City Brawler (Dragon Magazine #349), Streetfighter (Cityscape Web Enhancement), and eventually go into the Fist of the Forest Prestige Class as well (Complete Champion). I would suggest Whirling Frenzy over Ferocity. That gets him Improved Unarmed Strike, so he can take Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle), and give him some high quality light armor, a Necklace of Natural attacks (Savage Species), and/or a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic, which also gives precedent for 'improved natural attack (unarmed strike)' being a thing).

Dienekes

2014-02-21, 08:52 PM

eggynack

2014-02-21, 08:53 PM

True, but you're talking about a guy who actually replaces his stats, and Druid's the only one that can do that, especially getting stuff from non-spellcasting variants. If your highest stat is a 12 you're not doing anything at all that's impressive, especially below tier 3.
Druids do it best, but wizards, and indeed any full caster, can be pretty much fine with those stats. Also warlocks, I think.

We're talking about a monk. Monk, the base class worse than Expert and Adept. This guy could have all 18s and still lose to the all 11 Druid.
Exactly. You don't need to have a bunch of good stats to be playable. You mostly just have to not be a monk, and if you do run a monk, you probably do need high stats to be capable of contributing.

Telonius

2014-02-21, 08:54 PM

Rebuilding the character wouldn't be an option for him. We need to somehow either improve what he has or give him something to do which he'd be capable at.

I just heard from him that if he should die he'd probably bring back the same sheet anyway. He is having too much fun with it, out of combat.

Oh. One of those.

I came up with this bit of homebrew awhile ago; it might help.

Why fight it? Grant him a new template.

Mysterion

Requirements: Character must have died in three consecutive combats.
Effects: The gods of Death and Comedy have, for reasons of their own, taken direct interest in the character. Once a day, the character will die, preferably in the most hideous way possible. Nothing is capable of saving the character from his fate, nor is it possible to raise the character from the dead, or create an undead from the character's corpse. The next time the party stops to rest, the character will be there, alive, at full hit points, cured of all status ailments and ability loss, with all spells and other abilities ready as though he'd had a full night's rest. The character has all of the gear that was present at his death. (Gear looted by other characters will always be back with the Mysterion character).

The character no longer gains experience points, but upon awakening he is at the party's average level. A Mysterion does not count as part of the group when determining the rest of the group's experience award.

Special: A Mysterion is completely ignored by any Marut he encounters, and vice versa. Maruts and Mysterions cannot perceive each other by any means, and it is impossible for either to do any damage to each other, even indirectly or by accident.

Level Adjustment: N/A

weckar

2014-02-21, 09:02 PM

Gavinfoxx

2014-02-21, 09:06 PM

Cloistered Cleric 1?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2773

Or Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 maybe?

weckar

2014-02-21, 09:09 PM

Gavinfoxx

2014-02-21, 09:14 PM

Barbarian and Monk by definition don't mix (Lawful requirement VS Lawful ban).

Waive that. Seriously. Just waive it.

And I am not saying get cleric for the SPELLCASTING. Get it for three devotions and turn undead to fuel it. Pretend he can't cast spells, and he can't actually turn undead with the turn undead. Just use the three devotions (knowledge + 2 other)

Seerow

2014-02-21, 09:18 PM

Barbarian and Monk by definition don't mix (Lawful requirement VS Lawful ban).

I'd suggest Cloistered cleric but he doesn't play spellcasters in any form (Hence why he dislikes ToB because it feels like spellcasting to him).

So make it a spell-less cloistered cleric.

The real reason to dip Cleric 1 is for turn undead and the domain powers (and/or the ability to trade those out for Devotion Feats to use the Turn Undead on).

Have him dip Cloistered Cleric 1, gain 6 skillpoints (putting 1 point each in a bunch of knowledge skills), and trade out the Domains for Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, and Protection Devotion. This lets him gain +1-2 hit/damage against most enemies for an encounter; move as a swift action for an encounter; or gain +2-7 AC for an encounter once per day each. And you can spend your turn undead attempts to use those again.

No spells necessary. If you want, trade out the cleric spell progression for full BAB (so he's not stuck as a martial type with +0 BAB at level 2), it's still a pretty good deal for him for a 1 level dip. It also has the benefit of giving him light armor proficiency (which he could really use).

Captnq

2014-02-21, 09:23 PM

Okay, first of all, stop listening to everyone else.

The fact of the matter is that when I scan the boards for information on tactics and what not, I find a whole bunch of people repeating the same "wisdom" over and over, but not a whole lot of actual experience with the subject matter they are talking about.

Now the monk in question sounds like a particular monk I saw played called "Wheezy".

Wheezy was a half orc monk with the only good stat being strength and a con of 6. Yes, you would have called him "doomed" but he actually survived fairly well. Everyone loved Wheezy.

In my current campaign I run, the most deadly character is the monk, but mostly because of some SERIOUS twinky rules bending. Then again, I made the mistake of agreeing to an ANYTHING RAW campaign, so i had it coming to me.

Monk's suck, out of the box. Meaning, if you are dealing with monks using core rules and using them the way they were intended, they are horrible and will never ever be successful.

You need to stop thinking of a monk as a monk. You need to move past it and think outside the box.

A Monk is a platform for serious rules abuse.

For example: The monk, and only the monk, has 9 different locations you can arm a weapon. Each armed weapon can have up to +9 WSAs. You can use the Dragon Magazine to have cold iron caps installed in your knuckles then enchanted. Now you have up to +10 in enhancements on your knuckles. Add Battle gauntlets, now you can add another +9 in WSAs. Add a necklace of natural weaponry, then bracers of striking. have someone cast +5 greater weapon buff on you, and your fists are +5, then up to +37 WSAs on top of that.

Or spread it out with the NoNW. Put a +1 helmet on your head that's defending, then get hit with greater magic weapon. Your left knee is +1 Smoking, your right knee is +1 blinking., Your elbows are +1 flying so they can make free attacks on their own.

You can't do that with non-monks. It's only the monks that come with so many weapons "wielded" at the same time.

Now, on top of that, you need to get him some armor. You need to get him a beekeeper outfit. It's the only Non-armor that's armor. So a monk can wear it and then enchant it as if it was armor, but it has no effect on his abilities because it's an outfit, not armor.

Rules bending? Oh HELL YES. RAW? Technically, yes. But you want to make your lousy stat monk a good monk, you are going to have to smack the rules around like a bitch until they do what you want.

Now, your monk is allowed to wear gauntlets. get battle gauntlets or Ward cestus. Both go off his base damage. Either or, you need to install Oil Chambers.

"An oil chamber is a tiny vessel attached to the hilt of a weapon, the inside of a shield, or either forearm of a suit of armor. "

Now, that means that you install on on the inside of both forearms of your beekeeper's outfit. Since it works in the "hilt" of any weapon, and your ward cestus is a weapon, we can assume the part you put your hand inside is the "hilt". So you can put another oil chamber inside both of those. Also, get a spiked helmet. It's a weapon. the "hilt" is your head, so get an oil chamber inside that too.

Now, most potions can be bought as oil. The oil chambers don't have to spray on your weapons. They can spray on you. Opening an oil chamber is a swift action. What's your monk using his swift action for? Well, for now he's using it to pop open Cure Critical Wound Oil. It's like having an extra 4d8+7 hit points every round. The guy's gonna need it with that lousy AC.

Now since he's a monk, he's working on going Full Attack action as much as possible. So, he needs to capitalize on that. Meaning, he needs natural attacks. A pair of Warforged Arms is only 1,000 gp and gives you an extra slam attack. It also opens up all sorts of warforged only equipment. If your DM will allow it, (because nothing says you have to REPLACE your arms), buy the Warforged arms twice. Now you have four arms and two slam attacks.

Put claw attacks on those arms. More natural attacks.

Your DM won't allow you to double up with extra arms? Find someone with a warp sword and have them whack you a few times. Assuming you don't dissolve into a pile of ooze, you'll have extra arms in no time. Vestigial arms, but arms. Now you can hack those off and replace them with warforged arms.

If you can afford it, get the Maug Stone Spike grafts. +1d4 to all natural attacks is just awesome for a monk, especially one who's working on building up his extra natural attacks.

Also, He needs to get blister oil. It's cheap. It's effective. It can go on the outside of his ward cestus. Also, poison. Monk's have great saving throws. So even if he accidentally poisons himself, he's more then likely to survive. Or get assassination WSA built into the Iron Caps put into your knuckles. Then you can poison your knuckles and never worry about poisoning yourself. Weird? Yes. RAW? Hell Yes.

Anyrate, Check out my sig file and look up the EVD if you got more questions. Just key word search for MONK and you'll find all sorts of things.

Good luck. PM if you got any questions.

weckar

2014-02-21, 09:23 PM

Not a bad idea, that way. The charisma penalty won't make for happy turning of undead, but otherwise....

Dienekes

2014-02-21, 09:23 PM

That Mysterion template is actually not a bad idea at all. I might get him to go along with it if I sneak it onto him.

He's also leveling up next session, so I may get him to multiclass into something mildly synergistic. He's not a ToB fan, though. I'll waive the multiclassing penalty...

Your statement implies there are people who don't wave the multiclassing penalty. I find this rather disturbing.

Also if the guy's dying because of his weak AC, getting him into the barbarian class is probably not the best way to go for him. I mean the hit points can help a bit, but not enough. Though yes Pounce is awesome for a monk and will kind of be necessary late level. Assuming he gets that far.

Gray Mage

2014-02-21, 09:24 PM

Seerow

2014-02-21, 09:29 PM

He has a wis of 10, he can't even cast 1st level spells, so spellcasting won't be a goal anyway.

+1 to Cloistered Cleric for the devotion feats, although I personally might've picked Law Devotion over Protection Devotion (although with protection you gain more uses).

Protection Devotion applies to the whole group and lasts for a whole minute. Law devotion gives a big bonus, but only for a single round. Law might fit the idea of the Monk/Cleric better, but Protection has the same mechanical effect but better in every way.

Edit: Re: Bad charisma holding him back, yes you'll find bad stats being a hindrance almost no matter what you try to do with him. But the bad charisma at least can be worked around. For example, assuming there's not another cleric in the group (or the cleric who is in the group understands you're trying to help the monk) dropping a couple nightsticks gives him access to more turn undead attempts to fuel the devotion feats. Alternatively there's always picking up the "Extra Turning" feat, or just being happy with 1/day+1 or 2 extra uses here and there. It's not perfect, but better than nothing.

Gray Mage

2014-02-21, 09:32 PM

Protection Devotion applies to the whole group and lasts for a whole minute. Law devotion gives a big bonus, but only for a single round. Law might fit the idea of the Monk/Cleric better, but Protection has the same mechanical effect but better in every way.

Law also lasts one minute and for the exception of levels 8 and 9 is also a higher or equal bonus. The main advantage from Protection is buffing the whole party.

Seerow

2014-02-21, 09:34 PM

Law also lasts one minute and for the exception of levels 8 and 9 is also a higher bonus. The main advantage from Protection is buffing the whole party.

I just double checked law, I had been misreading the "until your next action" as that being how long it lasts. I missed that you can just reallocate whether it's an AC or hit bonus each action, and it does last for a full minute.

I'd still stick with Protection Devotion personally (giving the whole party a solid AC buff as a swift action is the sort of thing that helps make people happier with you even if you aren't contributing as much offensively), but I can see where Law is a solid choice as well.

In either case, Travel Devotion is an absolute must, and Knowledge Devotion is a "If I'm dipping cloistered cleric anyway, why not?" sort of deal.

weckar

2014-02-21, 09:37 PM

Gray Mage

2014-02-21, 09:38 PM

In what order would you suggest getting the Devotion feats? Considering new feats don't come along THAT often...

Although, as he doesn't get the spellcasting and barely any turning, maybe I can space out some free feats along his levels....

You can just trade the Domain gained from Cleric for the feat (page 53 from CC, under Clerics and Domain Feats).

weckar

2014-02-21, 09:39 PM

That may be a bit too much, considering the CC does get 3 domains total...

Seerow

2014-02-21, 09:39 PM

You can just trade the Domain gained from Cleric for the feat.

This. That's half the point of dipping the cloistered cleric. You give up the domain, gain the devotion feat. 1 level dip = 3 good feats plus the turn undead to power them.

That may be a bit too much, considering the CC does get 3 domains total...

We just spent half a thread explaining how useless this monk is. It'll take a lot more than 3 feats to make him "too much".

Divide by Zero

2014-02-21, 09:40 PM

That may be a bit too much, considering the CC does get 3 domains total...

Knowledge Devotion is just +1-2 to hit and damage if you don't invest heavily in it, it's nice but not huge. And don't forget you're comparing him to a wizard with like twice the stat total.

Gavinfoxx

2014-02-21, 09:40 PM

That may be a bit too much, considering the CC does get 3 domains total...

Why ever would it be too much? We are trying to get him to basic competency. He doesn't have basic competency befitting an adventurer. We are doing what it takes to get him a bit closer to that...

weckar

2014-02-21, 09:42 PM

Fair enough. I'd be willing to give him that. All this, of course, assuming he actually wants it. If he decides it doesn't fit his character, his eventual death is out of my hands.

I just hope he doesn't go into another class he can't use.

Gavinfoxx

2014-02-21, 09:43 PM

A warlock, if you choose the right options, can function with straight 8's.

Gray Mage

2014-02-21, 09:43 PM

I'd even say the whole point of a CC dip is devotion feats. Just one level means your casting is negligible and no domain power without the spells(that I can recall) can carry the dip by itself.

weckar

2014-02-21, 09:44 PM

Just to be clear: is this replacing of domains with devotion feats a general thing people do? I've never heard of it before, and don't recall reading about it.

Divide by Zero

2014-02-21, 09:45 PM

A warlock, if you choose the right options, can function with straight 8's.

Probably not going to work if the player avoids even ToB because it feels too much like casting.

Maybe a Binder? They can do all right with mediocre stats, and don't really feel like casters if you focus on passive abilities.

tzar1990

2014-02-21, 09:45 PM

Cool stuff about gear

Unfortunately, OP has said that the party is low on money, so the monk can't just buy a bunch of cool synergistic weapons and stick oil chambers in all of them.

Seerow

2014-02-21, 09:45 PM

Just to be clear: is this replacing of domains with devotion feats a general thing people do? I've never heard of it before, and don't recall reading about it.

It's in the Complete Champion book where Devotion feats are introduced. I'll get a page reference for you in a couple minutes.

Divide by Zero

2014-02-21, 09:46 PM

Just to be clear: is this replacing of domains with devotion feats a general thing people do? I've never heard of it before, and don't recall reading about it.

Complete Champion page 53, "Clerics and Domain Feats."

weckar

2014-02-21, 09:46 PM

Probably not going to work if the player avoids even ToB because it feels too much like casting.

Maybe a Binder? They can do all right with mediocre stats, and don't really feel like casters if you focus on passive abilities.

Not a bad idea either. I'll put it below CC on the suggestion list, in case he don't like.

Gray Mage

2014-02-21, 09:47 PM

Just to be clear: is this replacing of domains with devotion feats a general thing people do? I've never heard of it before, and don't recall reading about it.

It's common when dipping or when going CC in my experience (although if I'm not dipping I just trade the Knowledge Domain). If going full Cleric generally the Domain Power + spells are worth more then the devotion feat, IMO.

Stoneback

2014-02-21, 09:47 PM

Monk players tend to do questionable things, like play monk.

Sigged! LOL

Captnq

2014-02-21, 09:50 PM

I don't know what level you are, but switch out the 3rd level for the Broken Monk feature. if your charisma is 11 OR LESS, you can use lay on hands to heal a number of hit points each day equal to your monk level. Much better then that stupid +2 to saving throws against mind-effecting.

Get Holy strike at 4th instead of ki strike. You over come damage reduction as if your strike is good, and you do an extra 1d6 against evil on every natural attack. (which should include your multiple claw encrusted arms.)

Switch out evasion for Invisible fist. You can turn invisible as an immediate action for one round every 3 rounds.

Also, he needs the spell greater mighty wallop. Whatever it takes, he needs that.

Also, sizing is a WSA he can put in his necklace of natural abilities. He can increase the size of his fist by two increments, making it a two handed weapon, thus allowing him to do extra damage and power attack with it.

eggynack

2014-02-21, 09:50 PM

It doesn't look like anyone's brought up the animal devotion yet. That one is pretty sweet for this purpose. Flight is the big thing, but the strength bonus is good too. I think it's definitely comparable to law, mostly because flight is so important.

Gavinfoxx

2014-02-21, 09:52 PM

These might be useful, too:

Wild Monk (Dragon Magazine #324, THIS IS HUGE), Holy Strike (Complete Champion), Invisible Fist (Champions of Valor), Resistant Body (Planar Handbook)

Seerow

2014-02-21, 09:53 PM

Complete Champion page 53, "Clerics and Domain Feats."

Beat me to it, but the text for reference is:

Clerics and Domain Feats: If you are a cleric (or any other character class who gains access to a domain), you can choose any domain feat corresponding to the list of domains offered by your deity, even if you do not have access to those particular domains. A cleric of Pelor, for example, can choose to cast spells from the Good and Healing domains but select the Strength Devotion and Sun Devotion feats.

In addition, you can choose to give up access to a domain in exchange for the corresponding domain feat. Doing so allows you to select up to three domain feats, but you cannot prepare domain spells or use the granted power of the sacri*ficed domain. In essence, you trade in a domain for an extra feat slot that you can spend only on a specific domain feat.

For example, the above cleric of Pelor could choose to give up the granted power and spells of the Good domain for the Good Devotion feat

Captnq

2014-02-21, 10:04 PM

Unfortunately, OP has said that the party is low on money, so the monk can't just buy a bunch of cool synergistic weapons and stick oil chambers in all of them.

Well he's going to have to think long term.

And 15 gp is hardly going to break the bank. Blister oil works 1d6 times per dose. Cold Iron caps is only a 100 gp to have implanted. pay the extra 300 to make sure they are masterwork and have them enchanted later.

a 1,000 gp for an extra slam attack is CHEAP. I don't know what level he is, but go get those arms cut off, pronto.

If your DM is such a stingy guy, buy Craft Skill (metal working), you only need to get it up to a base 10. Then you can take ten and make the DC 20 to craft your own Oil Chambers and it'll be FREE. You can make it out of copper peices or metal you scavenge from the dead.

And on that point, why are you poor?

You need to start looking at your foes with a more mercenary eye.

Dead bodies can be chopped up and the parts sold to wizards. The average humanoid is worth 10 gp in parts alone. More exotic monsters should fetch you 10 gp/HD, MINIMUM.

Is that door you just encountered with a lock on it? Look up the difficulty on the chart. Find out what sort of lock. The best lock is 150 gp. chop down the door and remove the lock. Even without the key you can get 30 gp a lock. The door itself? firewood. A silver piece worth, easy.

The enemy is wearing armor? Cheap armor? 2 gp a suit of leather adds up. those swords? Long swords is 7gp each.

Does the dungeon have interesting architecture? If you aren't in a rush, find out how much that fountain in the foyer would cost. Most fountains are 10 feet across. A portable hole is 10 feet across.

I'm just saying.

Charm Person. Get your wizard to start casting it. Often. Comprehend Languages. Cast it. Find out what the local humanoids are doing. learn about where all the best loot it. Figure out how to set up a trade consortium.

Did you pry out every last nail, screw, and bolt? If it was hand made, did you steal it? Did you leave furniture behind?

Cast charm animal. Train them. Train birds. Train squirels. Train Zebras. SELL THEM.

Seriously, are my players the only ones who strip a place down to the wood finish, then pry up the wood to check to see if there is anything underneath?

Ydaer Ca Noit

2014-02-21, 10:05 PM

So you are having problems with combat because you follow to the death a silly rule. Looks to me like the solution is to ignore the silly rule.

Anyway, if he is having fun with RP, he shouldn't have problem staying away from combat. A merchant wouldn't go to a dungeon, an innkeeper wouldn't go either. His character isn't much better than them - the average commoner has a +0/+1 total modifier.

The Cat Goddess

2014-02-21, 10:06 PM

The reroll rule is that a reroll is granted if the total ability modifier is negative. His is +1, as is the Barbarian's.

Uh... you're supposed to be playing heroes, right? Not commoners?

While Seerow is a bit extreme, on an optimization level there really isn't a whole lot we can do for him. Though, if ToB is on the table maybe pointing him in the direction of an Unarmed Swordsage couldn't hurt. That'd at least give him light armor proficiency and I'm sure there are some maneuvers that'll help his survivability.

This. Swordsage is "Monk done right", just like Warblade is "Fighter done right".

That's actually a pretty good idea! I didn't know monks had any reach weapons available.

One of the Dragon Magazines has an item called a Meteor Hammer. It's a reach weapon that qualifies for Flurry. I think it can be used as a double-weapon as well, but that requires an Exotic Weapon Prof.

Just to be clear: is this replacing of domains with devotion feats a general thing people do? I've never heard of it before, and don't recall reading about it.

All the time. The Devotion Feats are sweet!

Not a bad idea either. I'll put it below CC on the suggestion list, in case he don't like.

Instead of Warlock... how about Dragon Disciple? Firebreath instead of Warlock blasting, Natural Armor instead of DR and some cool abilities too.

weckar

2014-02-21, 10:07 PM

I agree, mostly. Problem is he's sticking with the party no matter what, and at least two of them are competent.

Dragon disciple requires casting ability, don'tit?

Zweisteine

2014-02-21, 10:15 PM

Use tricks (or just wait) to get lots of money. A candle of invocation (summoning a djinn or an efreet) should do the job nicely.

Buy a stack of True Mind Switches, putting the monk into a body with better ability scores.

Alternatively, invoke the Rule of Fun, and let him reroll his abilities (with some cheap in-game explanation*). It's hard to have fun playing a character that is truly weak and has no interesting abilities (though a bad character with cool powers can be fun).

*Either something plot-related, or buy a Candle of Invocation, summon a Solar, and wish for new, better ability scores, with the metagame effect of re-rolling, and rejecting any set of rolls that doesn't have at least one ability above 15, at least one more above 13, and at least two more above 11 (i.e. must be at least as good as the elite array, or just use the elite array).

I think getting a Candle of Invocation to gate in a Solar to wish for the elite array sounds pretty good to me.

Also, even with two eighteens and a seventeen, how is the wizard better in melee than the monk? Tougher, maybe, but can it deal more damage?

Ydaer Ca Noit

2014-02-21, 10:18 PM

Ok I have an idea. If you are the DM give them a quest, and in the quest things happen and they feel stronger better etc. And everyone gets +4 on all stats. This should solve the problem.

Captnq

2014-02-21, 10:19 PM

Thinking about it, if your DM is so stingy, yer going to need someone to invest in Craft Wondrous Item and Craft arms and Armor. Make everything Alignment and class specific to make the item cost 30% less, then chop up your enemies and scavenge their internal organs for materials to craft wondrous items and arms and armor.

Look, where do you think the "gold pieces" of "value" come from? You don't just force gold into a bottle and get a potion. You buy "stuff" to make the potion. Well, the "stuff" could be the Heart's blood of your enemies and his brains as well. Get some skill in being a butcher and chop up your enemies for parts and have the DM calculate the gp "value" in magical material for crafting equipment.

Trust me, once MY players pulled that on me, it changed my perspective. When the wizard looks down on a platoon of orcs and said, "Finally! My Bracers of Armor upgrade just arrived!" The NPCs started to learn a new found respect for the PCs.

Stoneback

2014-02-21, 10:25 PM

I'm having trouble understanding the problem. The player is having fun, right? Regardless of whether the character is meeting the measuring stick of "playable" or not, it is imminently playable, since it's being played and with some enjoyment.

At my table, I have one person who will not be happy if any of her stats are below 10, and another one who never looks at the numbers and just has fun with the RP aspect. The third is mostly interested in killing/defeating stuff.

The challenge for me is to provide combat and RP in every session.

Is your challenge that the other players are not having fun palling around with a gimpy goofball?

Deophaun

2014-02-21, 10:45 PM

Unfortunately things aren't that easy for him. If he puts armor on he loses almost all if his class features.
He loses the AC bonus (which is nothing), his speed bonus, and flurry of misses blows. In exchange, he gets to live.

Now, as he gets money, he might want to invest in getting a pearl of power for the Wizard so that he can have mage armor. 1000 gp for the pearl certainly comes online a lot faster than the 16,000 gp for an equivalent bracers of armor.

Later, he'll get the wizard another pearl of power for level 3 spells so he can have greater magic weapon cast on himself. Now here, weckar, to throw the monk a bone, you can be generous and treat the monk's whole body as a magic weapon. What does that do for the monk defensively? Why, enhancement bonuses grant additional hardness and hp to the weapons they're applied to. +2 hardness and +10 hp. So, under this, a monk with a +3 enhancement has a hardness of 6 and an extra 30 hp. If you want to be real generous, you let him have hardening cast on himself.

Of course, he will also be upgrading to greater mage armor.

Captnq

2014-02-21, 10:50 PM

About his feats...

I'd go with Exotic weapon Ward Cestus.
Monkey Grip
Power attack
Improved unarmed strike.

This should allow him to increase the size of his ward cestus two size classes for a -2 to hit, extra damage, and allow him to two hand wield his monk attack. Then the improved unarmed strike will increase his monk level by 4 for purposes of monk damage. Should really increase his damage.

The two handed ward cestus will then take his base strength and make it x1.5, and he can power attack a little and have it go x2. When he gets adamantine strike, he can then sunder his way through anything. The only problem is going to be hitting. He's going to whiff a lot.

Hey, ask the DM if he can have some deformity feats without being evil. A +5' to his reach would really make a difference. He's a half-orc. They can be freakishly mutant, right?

Captnq

2014-02-21, 10:54 PM

Later, he'll get the wizard another pearl of power for level 3 spells so he can have greater magic weapon cast on himself. Now here, weckar, to throw the monk a bone, you can be generous and treat the monk's whole body as a magic weapon. What does that do for the monk defensively?

Duh. Forgot about the monk being treated as a "weapon" thing. Hey I should point out (again) that the WSA flying makes a monk an animated object capable of making attacks on its own. It's only +1 so it'd only be 4,300 gp in a Necklace of natural weaponry. Your body could keep on fighting after you are dead! And yeah, the hardening thing, very RAW, but technically true. Check with your DM first.

atomicwaffle

2014-02-21, 10:57 PM

Get him to read a book. Not a magazine, or a sports page, but a +6 Tome of Understanding.

Big Fau

2014-02-21, 11:39 PM

Get him to read a book. Not a magazine, or a sports page, but a +6 Tome of Understanding.

The Necronomicon may help him more than a +Tome...

@OP: The reroll rule presented in the PHB was built on the assumption that a character with an array of 12/10/10/10/10/10 was playable as any class. This is simply not the case with 3.5. Very few classes can operate with stats like the Monk in question, and the Monk class isn't one of them.

Each class should have it's own separate minimums for rerolling (Monks should have a minimum of a +8 total ability modifiers at 1st level, meaning at least two 16s, a 14, and three 12s). Spellcasters can get away with Commoner stats (three 10s, three 11s).

Monks are the most MAD class in the game, and trying to play one with stats that are barely better than a Commoner's is not a good idea from an optimization standpoint or a roleplaying perspective.

Petrocorus

2014-02-21, 11:45 PM

His best roll was a 14, which went into STR. DEX is his second best, WIS his third. Con is +0 as well and both INT and CHA are -1. After Racial Adjustments, that makes his STR a +3, but otherwise it's not much.

With such a roll, he should not have chosen a class so MAD as the Monk. Since ToB is on board, he should have tried the Unarmed Swordsage, but there will be some MADness too. He could have tried a Barbarian with 2-lvl dip into Fighter to get IUS and focus on unarmed attack, maybe with a couple of ranger level for TWF, or have taken a template like Draconic or Feral that gives natural weapons.

With a bad roll and one of the worst class of the game, he won't be able to do a lot. Let him rebuild his character.

His stats are not the worst in the party (that's the barbarian) but close. The wizard was the one who got the best rolls by far (landed 2 18s and a 17, making her more effective in melee than the monk...).

Rule 0: the DM can do whatever they want.
Rule 0.5: the point of a game is to have fun.

It's hard to have fun when you're too afraid of your character dying to do anything, so it's the DM's job to fix things so it's fun again. Sometimes that means changing/ignoring other rules, especially if they're stupid.

These are the very two reasons why i hate random generation. You end up with a PC who can't do what you want him to do, and finally, you play a PC you do not like. While the other guy can do everything better because he was just lucky the day of character generation.

Seerow

2014-02-21, 11:55 PM

These are the very two reasons why i hate random generation. You end up with a PC who can't do what you want him to do, and finally, you play a PC you do not like. While the other guy can do everything better because he was just lucky the day of character generation.

This is why when my group does randomized stats we do one of two things:

1) Every person at the table rolls out 1 or 2 sets of stats (depending on how many players there are. Aim for between 6 and 8 sets), everyone picks one set out of those generated.

2) The GM (or players) rolls up 6 sets of stats and lines them up in a 6x6 matrix. All players can choose any one set of stats from the matrix (going horizontally, vertically, or diagonally).

Basically both methods serve to use randomly generated stats, but mitigate the chance of truly awful stats, and make sure everyone's on a level playing field (if only one good set of stats comes up, at least everyone has the same set. Usually though you'll have a set with a really high stat and nothing else worth noting and a couple others better suited for a MAD character, so you still get some diversity in there, but nobody walks out feeling like someone else got an unfair advantage due to being lucky or like they got screwed.

Petrocorus

2014-02-22, 12:16 AM

Part of it is in blood (by accident, long story) but that's not the point here. I need to somehow help him without making him think I'm hijacking his character. If there was somehow an RP in-story reason I could change his stats, that would be a different matter...

Well, the next time he do something good, i mean for the Greater Good, he could be rewarded by a Solar who descent on earth to enlight him about The Life, The Universe and Everything. That new enlightment would actually improve his Wis, and you bump his stat.

Alternatively, he could find in a dungeon crawl a very Ancient Book of Lost Enlighting Meditation and Truth, i.e a homebrew version of a Tome of Understanding which does not give an inherent bonus, but actually improves the natural stat of the guy.

He could also die in a region where there are no cleric but only Druids, and get reincarnated in a new stronger body, a bugbear for instance. Or an half-orc, but with rerolled abilities score.

turkishproverb

2014-02-22, 12:38 AM

Right, I suppose the best I can do is throw some magic items his way over time, and hope he lives. It doesn't help that he starts every social interaction with the casual question (as a joke): "Say, do you want to fight me?".

Thanks for your time, all. I'll figure it out from here.

EDIT: By the way, not playing with kids, just a heavy rollplayer who plays the dice as they come down no matter what that means for him.

Like I said, ring of blink. Big help if he's getting hit at range. Also the Cloistered Cleric level ain't a bad idea. Not sure the domains to go with.

Hrm...could you do something to him that gave him a template?

This. Swordsage is "Monk done right", just like Warblade is "Fighter done right".

Swordsage really only kills. Some people like monks that do a few things.

Ziegander

2014-02-22, 02:22 AM

He loses the AC bonus (which is nothing), his speed bonus, and flurry of misses blows. In exchange, he gets to live.

He loses Flurry (which is not as bas as everyone makes it out to be), the speed bonus, and Evasion (which is good, but is less than what I thought he'd be losing).

Yeah, actually, at this point I would advise taking the Light Armor Proficiency feat to gain +4 to AC.

Later, he'll get the wizard another pearl of power for level 3 spells so he can have greater magic weapon cast on himself. Now here, weckar, to throw the monk a bone, you can be generous and treat the monk's whole body as a magic weapon. What does that do for the monk defensively? Why, enhancement bonuses grant additional hardness and hp to the weapons they're applied to. +2 hardness and +10 hp. So, under this, a monk with a +3 enhancement has a hardness of 6 and an extra 30 hp. [...]

Of course, he will also be upgrading to greater mage armor.

How have I not seen this interpretation of his "body is a weapon, spells effect his body as if it were a weapon" rule before? Yes, this should actually, RAW, be how the Monk works anyway, so you should indulge him. This actually makes the Monk playable and very cool regardless.

Deophaun

2014-02-22, 02:29 AM

He loses Flurry (which is not as bas as everyone makes it out to be), the speed bonus, and Evasion (which is good, but is less than what I thought he'd be losing).
Nope, he keeps evasion:

Evasion (Ex)

At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

zlefin

2014-02-22, 02:32 AM

I'd recommend going crossbow.
Monk's are proficient with heavy and light crossbows; and high movement speed goes well with ranged attacks, and crossbows do decent damage.

How much money do you have and what level is the party?

Would he be willing to use psionics at all?

Ziegander

2014-02-22, 02:44 AM

Nope, he keeps evasion:

Good call, and again you are correct.

Is there some source you got the "hardness from Magic Weapons applies to the Monk himself" idea, or is that your own, because I can't think of a single RAW reading, off-hand anyway, that would contradict your argument, and I love it for the fact that it at least makes the Monk playable.

I know Tippy has made the argument in the past, but in the builds/posts I've seen I thought his interpretation was silly if not overpowered until you brought it up in the way you brought it up. You've made me look at the Monk in a new light.

Deophaun

2014-02-22, 02:49 AM

I know Tippy has made the argument in the past, but in the builds/posts I've seen I thought his interpretation was silly if not overpowered until you brought it up in the way you brought it up. You've made me look at the Monk in a new light.
I got it off the boards, so probably from Tippy. I think, in general, I'm on the side of it not working by RAW, but there's enough wiggle-room and the Monk could use the boost, so I'll side with "why not?" Especially in this case.

CrazyYanmega

2014-02-22, 02:58 AM

FINALLY, I'm all caught up...

I recommend Priapt of Wisdom (+4) and maybe a Ring of Protection. However, that ring is going to be hotly contested.

Have the group kill a Mockery Monarch. That shell has at least a +13 deflection bonus to armor.

Gavinfoxx

2014-02-22, 11:53 PM

So, OP, what has happened?

weckar

2014-02-23, 01:26 AM

I won't know until next Friday. We only play once per week :smallbiggrin:

Metahuman1

2014-02-23, 02:09 AM

Didn't read the whole thread, but just in case no one's suggested it yet, look in the players handbook 2, and send him on a rebuild quest so that he can change an aspect of his character, then have him reroll.

animewatcha

2014-02-23, 04:29 AM

What deity does his character worship?

weckar

2014-02-23, 04:35 AM

Atheist, if I recall. Which, in Eberron, is actually a valid stance. Most other characters in the party are involved with the church of the Sovereign host, in some capacity (except the Elf, who prefers her ancestors).

Petrocorus

2014-02-23, 01:53 PM

I was thinking, another possibility would be to homebrew a rule about training, allowing a PC to train an ability and buy a better score with XP. Up to a certain score of course, the point is not to have PC with six 18s. The cost could be progressive, like with the point-buy system. With maybe a reduction for simply rounding up an odd score to the next even score.

Archaos

2014-02-23, 03:52 PM

I'm going to suggest something generally unpopular and unoptimized but it looks like the best thing for this character.

Since he's a Monk with abysmal stats and the party is low on wealth...
Have him do what it needs to, to qualify for Vow of Poverty.

It's the only way I can think of to keep him a Monk and increase his stats without buying a bajilion magic items.

Put the first stat increase at STR, second to WIS, third to CON or whatever.
Dip (Cloistered) Cleric and try to get Sacred Fist then.
There you go, you have a self-reliant character with some decent abilities that while inferior to magic items, he can function on his own and support the party with the Cleric side, while punching stuff.

He might need some DM help or using the retraining rules to change his feat/skill/whatever selection to make him qualify for VoP though.

About his share of the loot, have it spread to the other players and tell them to support him with spells or magic items, he would have bought.

For example, Wand of Mage Armor/Bull's Strength/Barkskin etc.
With the Cleric spells he can do some tricks of his own and advances his Unarmed damage with Sacred Fist.

Not the best, but other than rerolling and keeping the theme the same, I see little alternative.

rexx1888

2014-02-23, 04:26 PM

my suggestion. you are the DM. Kill him.

have the party stay at an inn, an then try to kill them in the night. Make him first. Hell probably not wake up, everyone else probably will. Hell be dead.

then have his god take an interest in him. Do it again an again, wack on the mysterion template from earlier in the thread(thats awesome by the way) and make him reroll his stats. Same character, interesting development in the "i die every day" thing, and he wont be all pissed about his terrible stats. Hell, since hes dying every day you can boost his stats silly style, it wont break anything because hes a monk. If youre worried about it breaking things, make the requirement for mysterion be that he must be a monk.

either way. my suggestion is this. For the sake of your game, be harsh. try to kill that monk. He will probably die. BUT if he doesnt, then the player will learn to be smart, and that will serve him for the rest of your campaign. If you arent straight up now on the killing side of things, then your monk player will play till he gets bored and then do the "eugh, i full attack, weeeeee not contributing, no one is hurting me, ill just look at my phone" thing, and its all south from there

Starbuck_II

2014-02-23, 08:25 PM

Personally, I say have him in Leather (later Masterwork Studded Leather by 2nd at minimum, 3rd at max) till level 4, sure you lose Flurry, but with little Dex and no Wis, he needs AC.

Once level 4, get bracers ditch the armor and Flurry the enemy. Remember, Evasion is usable in light or no armor for monks.

The other option? Have him carry potions of Mage Armor (50 gp a pop): means +4 AC bonus from Armor and Flurry is usable.

Telonius

2014-02-23, 08:33 PM

Archaos

2014-02-23, 08:42 PM

"We had to destroy the Monk in order to save him." :smallbiggrin:

Heh. Well, the alternative is have him or the party invest a fortune on Bracers of Armor, STR/DEX/WIS/CON items etc etc. Just those cost dozens of thousands of gold.

The VoP gives it 4 AC at first level that stacks with everything else and then it's only more bonuses, coupled with Cleric buffs like Shield of Faith, Protection from Evil, Divine freaking Power, Air Walk, Summon Monster spells, you have a character that needs no items and is pretty much self-reliant and the only thing it needs is an alignment shift and some "retraining time".

Sure it's unoptimized and magic items are sweet but they don't have much gold to spare for them, plus spending a fortune just to make the Monk viable and a Christmas tree seems weird to me, roleplay-wise.

weckar

2014-02-23, 08:44 PM

Unfortunately, first time he'll be able to take VoP is in... 5 levels from now, as he'd need to take Sacred Vow first (straightest example of feat tax if there ever was one).

Deophaun

2014-02-23, 08:45 PM

Heh. Well, the alternative is have him or the party invest a fortune on Bracers of Armor.
There's a party Wizard. They just need to spend 1k on a pearl of power.

Archaos

2014-02-23, 08:46 PM

Unfortunately, first time he'll be able to take VoP is in... 5 levels from now, as he'd need to take Sacred Vow first (straightest example of feat tax if there ever was one).

Retraining then? The rules for retraining feats and class levels are in PHBII. And a small cost and time is purely optional. Seems fair for him.

Archaos

2014-02-23, 09:02 PM

There's a party Wizard. They just need to spend 1k on a pearl of power.

Which lasts... 1 hour only? (Caster level 1) Having the Wizard simply cast Mage Armor on the Monk before every battle seems more efficient.

Deophaun

2014-02-23, 09:05 PM

Which lasts... 1 hour only?
If the wizard is level 1. If the Wizard is level 4 it lasts 4 hours. If the Wizard is level 8 it lasts 8. Some spells are funny like that.

Having the Wizard simply cast Mage Armor on the Monk before every battle seems more efficient.
:smallsigh: That's the whole point

Archaos

2014-02-23, 09:09 PM

If the wizard is level 1. If the Wizard is level 4 it lasts 4 hours. If the Wizard is level 8 it lasts 8. Some spells are funny like that.

:smallsigh: That's the whole point

Well, yeah. That's why I called it more efficient. A simple casting scales with the Wizard's level. While a 1k Pearl of Power would last 1 hour until they get a more powerful one.

While a Pearl of Power would be handy for one encounter, it's only 1/day. On the next encounter in the same day, the Monk is left without any protection unless the Wizard casts it on him.

Neither Bracers of Armor nor VoP have that problem.

eggynack

2014-02-23, 09:12 PM

Well, yeah. That's why I called it more efficient. A simple casting scales with the Wizard's level. While a 1k Pearl of Power would last 1 hour until they get a more powerful one.

While a Pearl of Power would be handy for one encounter, it's only 1/day. On the next encounter in the same day, the Monk is left without any protection unless the Wizard casts it on him.

Neither Bracers of Armor nor VoP have that problem.
Why would a pearl of power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#pearlofPower) last for one hour? It just lets the wizard cast mage armor a second time, so it would be cast at the wizard's own caster level. The pearl's casting is likely to last most of the day, as long as mage armor normally would, and it works every day. This isn't a scroll.

Nihilarian

2014-02-23, 09:14 PM

Give him an artifact or a custom weapon of legacy. Do it in a way that doesn't allow any of the others to pick it up, and have it bond to him. Give it to him subtly (the more "choice" he has the less he'll feel railroaded), call the item "cursed" and give it a few minor drawbacks.

Archaos

2014-02-23, 09:17 PM

Why would a pearl of power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#pearlofPower) last for one hour? It just lets the wizard cast mage armor a second time, so it would be cast at the wizard's own caster level. The pearl's casting is likely to last most of the day, as long as mage armor normally would, and it works every day. This isn't a scroll.

Hmm, my bad then. I thought that it was similar to wands and had a fixed caster level.
It's an alternative to items with permanent effects though not a perfect solution.

Deophaun

2014-02-23, 09:36 PM

It's an alternative to items with permanent effects though not a perfect solution.
The problem is the items with permanent effects cost. Dearly. At level 4, a level 1 pearl of power costs lest than 20% of a PCs wealth by level. Meanwhile, a set of +4 bracers of armor costs the entire WBL of more than 3 PCs. Really, you aren't looking at bracers of armor being an affordable replacement for armor until maybe level 9, and by then the +4 bonus is questionable. Later, a 3rd level pearl of power costs 9,000 gp, while +6 bracers of armor still costs 4x the price. And the pearls can do more (such, as previously mentioned, potentially granting hardness and extra HP to the monk on top of a scaling enhancement bonus to his unarmed strikes). So as long as you have a wizard, take advantage.

Irk

2014-02-23, 10:06 PM

Personally, I think this character is perfectly salvageable.
Lets apply some ACFs, specifically, invisible fist and martial monk. Instead of multi classing, stay in monk. Switch out the first level feat for Hidden Talent: Minor Creation. Grab Brutal throw as the first Martial Monk feat and Throw Anything as the second (martial monk allows you to ignore prerequisites). Now the character can use the monk's mobility to launch swords coated in EXTREMELY deadly poison at foes.

Alternatively, Decisive Strike Invisible Fist Martial Monk with Martial Study: Steel Wind and Martial Stance: Punishing Stance as the fighter bonus feats and then Exotic weapon proficiency: gnomish quickrazor. Switch the +1 in dex to cha and put ranks into iaijutsu focus. I know you don't like ToB, but this'd be able to bring up damage a great deal: +1d6 from iaijutsu focus and +1d6 from punishing stance, doubled by decisive strike for +4d6 extra damage, not to mention the double +1d6 from unarmed strike, bringing up each attack to 6d6. They're also more likely to hit due to invisible fist making opponents flat footed.

However, your initial question was how to boost AC, so I'll address that in this last idea.
Be a water Orc (same RP style but with the con bonus you'll be able to qualify for shape soulmeld) and grab two flaws
Hidden Talent: Force Screen provides +4
Shape Soulmeld: Ankheg Breastplate provides +2
Inertial Armor provides another +4 (weird feat I found just now, but has really good synergy with hidden talent: Force Screen)
That gives +10 to armor right here. Without flaws, just take Hidden Talent: Force Screen, and that'll help a lot.

Personally, I think that there are a lot of ways to fix the character, especially when race changes and flaws are permitted, but my first two ideas use neither and fix the character very well. THe last meets your primary goal, weckar, but uses flaws and a race change, which you may find distasteful.

At the very least, I recommend doing Invisible Fist Martial Monk and grabbing Hidden Talent: Minor Creation or Force Screen, as it's a very modular exoskeleton.

Petrocorus

2014-02-23, 10:48 PM

Where can i find the Invisible Fist and Martial Monk ACF?

Karnith

2014-02-23, 10:58 PM

Where can i find the Invisible Fist and Martial Monk ACF?
Invisible Fist is in Exemplars of Evil, p. 21, and Martial Monk is in Dragon Magazine #310, p. 45.

The Trickster

2014-02-23, 10:59 PM

Where can i find the Invisible Fist and Martial Monk ACF?

I think the Martial Monk is in a Dragon Magazine. Invisible fist is from Exemplars of Evil.

Edit: Swordsage'd

Vogonjeltz

2014-02-23, 11:02 PM

Hia, Here's the problem: my party has a Half-orc monk who is stuck at an AC of 11. During the last session he went down twice in one combat, and although he has decent damage output, the player is now afraid to do anything. Is there anything we can do for him? Either boosting his AC or otherwise making him harder to hit?

EDIT: FIXED TYPO

Solutions:
1) Increase wisdom/dexterity
2) Fight defensively
3) ranks in tumble increase the AC bonus from fighting defensively.
4) Bracers of armor/ring of protection/natural armor amulet/have the smarty pants wizard buff him
5) if I recall right CW has a quarter staff feat that might help.
6) if you are at the right levels, combat expertise might be an option.

*i ruled out regular armor, assuming the monk wants to stay in character.

Perseus

2014-02-23, 11:47 PM

So... I have nothing to help but I wanted to get this straight.

It was asked of the forum to help fix this monk character without actually doing anything that is really needed to fix the monk character?

Right?

Ok I lied, here is how I can help... By giving some advice.

As the Wizard I would sneakily kill off the monk... Assisted suicide if you will... And then go look for another monk to join the party until I found a monk that was actually viable as a tier 5 character (as viable as that is...).

Rinse and repeat as many times as needed.

I find it more unfair to the other players that the monk and barbarian are being shafted so badly. The rest of the group has to pick up their slack.

weckar

2014-02-24, 02:42 AM

Well, the Wizard is the only player that rolled over a 15, so it's not as if the barbarian and monk are THAT far behind.

eggynack

2014-02-24, 02:46 AM

Well, the Wizard is the only player that rolled over a 15, so it's not as if the barbarian and monk are THAT far behind.
So, the most powerful member of the party also has the highest stats? That seems like a somewhat problematic thing. In any case, in a world filled with things that this monk's player is unwilling to do with his character, it may be necessary to determine what he's willing to do with his character before discussing how best to do those things.

weckar

2014-02-24, 02:49 AM

Indeed. Honestly, it's almost a good thing the Wizard has the least competent player! :smallbiggrin:

For now I think I'm going to suggest a combination of the Cloistered Cleric and the VoP entry fix I found, and then waive the multiclassing restriction on the monk if he still wants levels in that. That should pull him up to the average of the party for now.

Alent

2014-02-24, 03:01 AM

Well, the Wizard is the only player that rolled over a 15, so it's not as if the barbarian and monk are THAT far behind.

While the base stats may not be that far apart, they just don't scale equally for each class.

I kind of wish 3.x hadn't ditched the old 2e class minimums... I would really support implementing a house rule that says you can't be a Monk without 2e ranger minimums. (Minimum 13 str, 13 dex, 14 con, 14 wis.)

It would help protect your players from themselves since you prefer rolling to using 25, 28, or 32 point buy.

rexx1888

2014-02-24, 03:32 AM

While the base stats may not be that far apart, they just don't scale equally for each class.

I kind of wish 3.x hadn't ditched the old 2e class minimums... I would really support implementing a house rule that says you can't be a Monk without 2e ranger minimums. (Minimum 13 str, 13 dex, 14 con, 14 wis.)

It would help protect your players from themselves since you prefer rolling to using 25, 28, or 32 point buy.

they dropped that O.o why the hell would any sane designer drop something like that, theres no sensible reason i can think to drop something like that O.o

its not a restriction, its a god damn road map to how to make classes like that functional O.o

danzibr

2014-02-24, 10:08 AM

After reading this thread, I have to say... I feel so sorry for that poor Monk.

If he does really want VoP, you can give it to him for free. Make it a life style rather than a feat. VoP normally sucks, but as you say he's really poor (how poor?), it can be a benefit.

Talya

2014-02-24, 10:31 AM

The best thing you can do for that character is let it die and be put out of its misery. It would be a mercy.

Terrible ability rolls, on a terrible class (and the one class that relies MOST on a bunch of high ability scores). It's never going to be remotely useful.

Petrocorus

2014-02-24, 12:01 PM

they dropped that O.o why the hell would any sane designer drop something like that, theres no sensible reason i can think to drop something like that O.o

its not a restriction, its a god damn road map to how to make classes like that functional O.o

They drop that because at the time, it was annoying a lot of people. Not to be able to play the class you want because you rolled poorly, or just not good enough, was really a thing. Especially for Ranger and Paladin, Paladin was an elite class for lucky players, you needed 17 cha, 15 or 16 wis and something like 13-14 in str and con. And at the time, it really was a good class.
This is a constant already mentioned in this thread that random generation has a tendency to have people play a character they don't like. Which is diminishing their fun and end up diminishing everybody fun because it create frustration and problems of power discrepancy in the party.

Obviously, they drop that also because they had the illusion that their classes were more balanced that they were, despite having ported some of them directly from 2nd Ed without adaptation, the Monk notably, and having also drop the different level progressions for each class. For example, with the same amount of XP, you could be a Warrior 20 or a Wizard 12 or 13.
Now you're a Fighter 20 or a Wizard 20.

weckar

2014-02-28, 07:14 PM

Little update:

The Monk took Vow of Poverty (in character, it made for quite a cool scene) as he was playing the character like that anyway, but is sticking with Monk levels for now. He IS considering taking a rogue-ish path at the next lv-up, so who knows?

Since the Barbarian generated some interest as well, I think some may be happy (or not) to know that she is multiclassing into Warblade. I THINK she may be aiming for the Bloodstorm Blade PrC...

Anyway, once again tons of thanks for everyone who shared their views.

SinsI

2014-02-28, 08:28 PM

What level is the Wizard? Can you give him a scroll of Polymorph Any Object?
Does this party have a Druid? Same question about scroll of Reincarnate.

Irk

2014-02-28, 09:37 PM

Rubik

2014-03-02, 09:11 PM

What if you go after the monk with template-adding monsters, such as, say, were(dire)eagles? His stats are low enough that he should fail the saves, and you can feel free to knock off the LA or count the HD against his ability to gain XP. Maybe give him the Prometheus treatment and have it peck out his liver.

It'd help him be somewhat competent, if nothing else.

[edit] Oh, wait. A VoP monk who was already useless? I suppose if you're not getting any wealth anyway, it won't make him any worse, but if that changes in the future, he's going to have even more problems than now.

He seems to be pretty masochistic, so I'd just give him proficiency in the cat-o-nine-tails and let him quietly flagellate himself in peace.

[edit 2] You may want to start researching this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) a bit and tossing lower level magic item equivalent buffs at the monk that stack with each other in a similar fashion, and upgrade those items as the game goes on. Screw VoP -- I have magic item equivalents!

Then throw a "curse" on the monk that acts exactly like the psychoactive skin of proteus (except it can't be removed) with a scaling manifester level.

Seriously, this is the kind of thing a regular monk needs -- and this monk needs it even more.