Flat footed Relfex

[Grayson01]

Does anyone know where I can find the rule for if someone get's a reflex save if they aer flatfooted to the attack?

[HunterOfJello]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#flatFooted

Being flat-footed doesn't do anything to a character outside of the description of the flat-footed condition. It does not have any effect on your reflex saves.

[(Un)Inspired]

I always want to houserule that character auto fail reflex saves if they're flat footed; or at least lose their dex bonus to reflex.

Ultimately I never bother because it's just not important enough for me to force the change.

[Grayson01]

I always want to houserule that character auto fail reflex saves if they're flat footed; or at least lose their dex bonus to reflex.

Ultimately I never bother because it's just not important enough for me to force the change.

Yeah I might just be miss remembering it or it was a house rule. it Makes sense to auto fail or at least have a serious cercumstance penelty.

[Grayson01]

All though now that I think about it, the reflex save is more then the ability to jump out the way it's also to notice something coming to get out the way so not auto failing makes sense.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Reacting without thinking or even being aware of what's going on is the whole point of Reflex.

EDIT: If the doctor drank an invisibility potion before entering the room to bang your knee with that rubber thing, would your leg not twitch/kick because he caught you flatfooted?

[Big Fau]

You only auto-fail a Reflex save if you are helpless IIRC.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You only auto-fail a Reflex save if you are helpless IIRC.

Actually, by RAW even when helpless you get a reflex save, albeit at a horrific penalty. Because all saves incorporate a bit of "sheer dumb luck" on top of the more basic qualities of what the save represents/utilizes.

It's certainly a common houserule and one I can understand and not be too put off over.

[(Un)Inspired]

Reacting without thinking or even being aware of what's going on is the whole point of Reflex.

EDIT: If the doctor drank an invisibility potion before entering the room to bang your knee with that rubber thing, would your leg not twitch/kick because he caught you flatfooted?

That's a good way of looking at it.

I always think of someone being caught in a fireball more easily because they aren't as on the ball to dodge out of the way as they could be ( I. E. If they were flat footed)

[Deophaun]

Reacting without thinking or even being aware of what's going on is the whole point of Reflex.

EDIT: If the doctor drank an invisibility potion before entering the room to bang your knee with that rubber thing, would your leg not twitch/kick because he caught you flatfooted?
Even worse, since initiative is generally never involved with traps, that makes every trap that targets Reflex an auto-success. What's that, rogue? You have Evasion? Too bad.

[TuggyNE]

I could perhaps see houseruling that you don't get Dex to Reflex saves when flatfooted, although it has some unfortunate effects on e.g. Rogues (as mentioned). But disallowing saves at all is a very dangerous precedent, and should be avoided.

TBH, it's not a good change to make for game balance, and is likely to require some further houserules to bring things back into whack.

[(Un)Inspired]

I could perhaps see houseruling that you don't get Dex to Reflex saves when flatfooted, although it has some unfortunate effects on e.g. Rogues (as mentioned). But disallowing saves at all is a very dangerous precedent, and should be avoided.

TBH, it's not a good change to make for game balance, and is likely to require some further houserules to bring things back into whack.

Yeah that a big reason I never go through with it

[HunterOfJello]

You only auto-fail a Reflex save if you are helpless IIRC.

Yup. Your reflex doesn't get a penalty like your AC does unless you're completely helpless.


There is also a measure of both balance and game design involved in the entire process. The creators used the concept of difficulty at moving to penalize AC where dexterity was involved, but chose to avoid penalizing that same character's reflex save at the same time. You'll find the same parallel with wearing heavier forms of armor. A character wearing Full Plate can only receive a maximum dexterity bonus of +1 to his AC, but he will still benefit from a +5 to reflex if he happens to have a 20 Dexterity.

You could attempt to houserule changes to reflex in those same situations in, but I would avoid doing so. The creators obviously decided to avoid it in core and I agree with their decision. Characters who are walking around in full-plate and are flat-footed all the time usually don't need any extra penalties on their reflex in order to fail a save. They are also extremely unlikely to have evasion, so they're going to be taking half-damage most of the time even if they do pass.

Automatically failing is also extremely inappropriate since the idea behind reflex is the ability to avoid area attacks. Game balance would also be harmed inappropriately since it's very easy to make someone flat-footed for a single round if you want them to be. Combos for making people flat-footed and then spamming them with readied actions of casting Fireballs would become far too common and easy. It would also mean that any traps based on reflex saves would be automatically successful at all times. This would quickly lead to only making traps that involve reflex saves and making sure to have permanent invisibility on all of them. Now everyone has to walk around with permanent See Invisibility or get blasted to death by tons of hidden fireball traps in every dungeon they ever come across.

[Crake]

You only auto-fail a Reflex save if you are helpless IIRC.

You dont auto-fail, but your dex is treated as 0 while helpless, so not only do you lose your dex bonus, you also get -5 ontop of that (since dex mod for 0 dex is -5)

[Grayson01]

Even worse, since initiative is generally never involved with traps, that makes every trap that targets Reflex an auto-success. What's that, rogue? You have Evasion? Too bad.

Except when they have uncanny dodge so are not flat footed to a trap unless it has more levels in rouge, barb, scout, etc.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Except when they have uncanny dodge so are not flat footed to a trap unless it has more levels in rouge, barb, scout, etc.

Uncanny Dodge doesn't make you immune to the flatfooted condition. It just lets you retain dex to AC when flatfooted, specifically. If you go and decide that FF costs dex to Reflex, Uncanny Dodge doesn't have you covered, by RAW. Because losing dex to Reflex when "surprised" is a dumb premise the designers never considered. Because it goes against the very principles of what good reflexes ARE.

Even aside from that....shall we build a graveyard for all of the level 1-3 rogues, then?