Divine Challenge Rating

[PraxisVetli]

What does Divine Rank do for Challeng Rating?
I know CR gets whack by the time DR should even be talked about, but just out of curiosity, what would it do?
1:1 seems too low..
1:3?
Increase CR by 3 per Rank?

[Alleran]

If you're going against an actual god, then you may as well throw CR out the window entirely. Even DvR 0 gives you a boatload of immunities and tricks, and salient divine abilities make it even worse.

[Chronos]

It's also very much nonlinear. DR 0 is nice, but most of what it gives, you could plausibly have through other means by the time you'd be deified. DR 1, meanwhile, gives you a whole host of things: The jump from DR 0 to DR 1 is probably bigger than the jump from DR 1 to DR 20.

[PraxisVetli]

It's also very much nonlinear. DR 0 is nice, but most of what it gives, you could plausibly have through other means by the time you'd be deified. DR 1, meanwhile, gives you a whole host of things: The jump from DR 0 to DR 1 is probably bigger than the jump from DR 1 to DR 20.

This I've noticed.
I was only thinking DR 2-3.
I wanted to boost up the Demon Lords, and though, well, what if Demogorgon had DR 2? Just a bit of divinity?

[Pan151]

DR 2 is not "just a bit of divinity", it's a full-fledged god with the ability to alter reality itself.

It would be a much better idea to give your Demon prince a few more levels in a spellcasting class. If you still want divinity, don't go above DR0 unless you specifically want your players themselves to achieve godhood.

And also throw CR out of the window entirely. At the levels where your players will be able to challenge deities the only reliable method of balancing the enemies' power is eyeballing it and hoping that it's not too far off.

[Brookshw]

Personally I'm all for giving demon princes archdevils divine ranks, given their cults it makes some sense and for what they're supposed to be their stats are pretty miserable.

As to the op, a scaling for demi/lesser/intermediate/greater probably makes sense. Maybe
Demi: +dr
Lesser: 2+dr
Intermediate: 3+dr
Greater: 5+ dr

Numbers by way of illustration, haven't really thought out what's appropriate.

[Pan151]

The problem with deities above rank 6 is that you cannot assign them a CR. If you do not also have a divine rank, then they automatically win because of their abilities. The end.

[PraxisVetli]

DR 2 is not "just a bit of divinity", it's a full-fledged god with the ability to alter reality itself.

It would be a much better idea to give your Demon prince a few more levels in a spellcasting class. If you still want divinity, don't go above DR0 unless you specifically want your players themselves to achieve godhood.

And also throw CR out of the window entirely. At the levels where your players will be able to challenge deities the only reliable method of balancing the enemies' power is eyeballing it and hoping that it's not too far off.
I've actually been considering that possibility, that my players may ascend.

Personally I'm all for giving demon princes archdevils divine ranks, given their cults it makes some sense and for what they're supposed to be their stats are pretty miserable.

As to the op, a scaling for demi/lesser/intermediate/greater probably makes sense. Maybe
Demi: +dr
Lesser: 2+dr
Intermediate: 3+dr
Greater: 5+ dr

Numbers by way of illustration, haven't really thought out what's appropriate.
Thanks!
I know its not really going to work, CR to DR conversion, but I just needed a general concept.

[KillianHawkeye]

It would probably be more appropriate to assign CR modifiers to the individual divine abilities rather than to the divine rank itself, because there's a lot of variance in what abilities you can give to deities.

[PraxisVetli]

What if DR0 and DR1 and up were templates?
limited by HD (one DR/ 4HD?)
I imagine it similiar to Monter pf Legend..

[Urpriest]

If you're looking for the RAW answer, Deities and Demigods says that you don't use CR for gods, you use ad-hoc XP awards based on party level. There are details on page 53, I just got done saying this in another thread.

[PraxisVetli]

Ur-Priest, does that mean (numbers made up for example) if my lvl 30's kill 2 dieties, then they should each get 60,000?
It says levelx1000 for a diety, but do I keep doing that for each diety?

[Urpriest]

Ur-Priest, does that mean (numbers made up for example) if my lvl 30's kill 2 dieties, then they should each get 60,000?
It says levelx1000 for a diety, but do I keep doing that for each diety?

Yes, in general. You're supposed to make deities hard enough to kill and rare enough to justify this sort of reward. Remember, these are incredibly ancient beings with what essentially amounts to Miracle at-will. They should be immune to basically everything your PCs throw at them, since they've had time enough to get all the defenses they might need.

[PraxisVetli]

Well, like I said, I'm having them fight Demogorgon, not Mystra.
Lol, its just an ancient Demon Prince, no biggie.
And I intend for them to fight Demo, and for it to be terribly brutal.

[Urpriest]

Well, like I said, I'm having them fight Demogorgon, not Mystra.
Lol, its just an ancient Demon Prince, no biggie.
And I intend for them to fight Demo, and for it to be terribly brutal.

Yeah, a level's worth of XP seems fine for a fight with DR 0 or 1 Demogorgon, if it's near the end of the campaign and intelligently played.

[PraxisVetli]

Well, its actually nowhere near the end.
Building to the crescendo, to be sure, but not the end.
But I don't think that matters.
A new question though, if you don't mind. My (CASTERLESS*) party is going to be ~36-40 for this fight (Demo'll be powered up a bit more than the books (plus itll be him and Orcus..long story).
I've been debating granting them (the players) DR0. Is that a suitable reward for this fight, instead/in addition to the xp? How much will that affect gameplay?
Is it a bad idea?


*they've a npc mage, warmage/rainbow, that the group controls (like a cohort kinda). He's not very..used. Mostly just heals. And does minor buffing. And occasionally blows stuff up.