Temporary Cleave?

[SiuiS]

I have a melee brawler I want to be able to 'hulk out'. Is there any way to, say, get the Cleave Feat through rage or similar ability? I want this guy to be able to turn on rage, qualify for (and get) his War Hulk levels, and when te ability goes away he gets his mental skills back because he is no longer a hulking hurler.

I know there's one out there, but I can't find it D:

[Zanos]

If you play a Goliath, you can use the goliath barbarian substitution level to become actually large when you rage, which will achieve a similar effect, and is what is classically used in most war hulk builds.

[TuggyNE]

You could do some silly shenanigans dropping your Str below 13, but otherwise it's probably not worth it.

Well, or a custom item granting Cleave. Meh.

[Arael666]

The spell Heroics would temporarily give you the Cleave feat.

[Red Fel]

As I recall, you only receive the benefits of a feat while you qualify for it. That is, if at some point you cease to meet the prerequisites, the feat sort of "goes inert," but comes back online once the prereqs are met again. (I don't have a specific citation for this.)

Cleave requires Str 13 and Power Attack.

Have Str 9-12. Rage. Gain +4 Str. You now have Str 13+. You now qualify for Cleave.

End Rage. Your Str drops. You no longer qualify for Cleave.

[Andezzar]

Now why would you want to have STR 9-12 in a BSF?

Probably not what you are looking for but 4 levels of Dervish (CW p. 25 ff.) give you cleave during the dervish dance.

[Person_Man]

Sylvan Scimitar strait out of the DMG/SRD grants Cleave when outdoors, as does the Rankbreaker Glaive from Arms and Equipment, which grants it everywhere. You could also be a Chameleon for the floating Feat. Arael already posted Heroics, and Red Fel posted on the standard Hulk combo of playing a Medium race and gaining +1 or more size (traditionally through Mountain Rage, Expansion, or Wild Shape, or a Wild Shape variant) to temporarily gain access to Hulking Hurler, War Hulk, and/or Knockback. When you're not Large, you would lose any PrC class levels you don't qualify for, and would thus also lose any Feats that you had gained from class levels. Though you'd also be very weak/vulnerable when in your Medium "Bruce Banner" state, it makes it more likely that your DM would approve a semi-broken PrC like Hulking Hurler or War Hulk.

It's also worth mentioning that Cleave is just an extra attack with a very specific (and not always common) trigger. There are tons of ways to add extra attacks permanently or temporarily. Are you hung up on Cleave, or do you just want Hulk = More Attacks?

[Andezzar]

When you're not Large, you would lose any PrC class levels you don't qualify for, and would thus also lose any Feats that you had gained from class levels. Though you'd also be very weak/vulnerable when in your Medium "Bruce Banner" state, it makes it more likely that your DM would approve a semi-broken PrC like Hulking Hurler or War Hulk.Unless the PrC is in Complete Warrior (see p. 16) or Complete Arcane (see p. 17), losing the Prerequisites to it after gaining the first level does nothing. So Hulking Hurler is a problem, War Hulk is not.

[Thiyr]

Unless the PrC is in Complete Warrior (see p. 16) or Complete Arcane (see p. 17), losing the Prerequisites to it after gaining the first level does nothing. So Hulking Hurler is a problem, War Hulk is not.

Debatable. The passage in CWar states a general rule, and there is no contradictory text regarding PrCs in other books as far as I'm aware. If it was talking about "Prestige classes presented here", then you'd be definitively correct, but it is just talking about prestige classes in general.


edit: Also, to keep on topic, seconding the Goliath sub level. Gets pretty much exactly what you're looking for.

[Andezzar]

Debatable. The passage in CWar states a general rule, and there is no contradictory text regarding PrCs in other books as far as I'm aware. If it was talking about "Prestige classes presented here", then you'd be definitively correct, but it is just talking about prestige classes in general.The DMG however is the primary source for how PrCs work. It only requires the prerequisites to be met before taking the first level in the PrC (DMG P. 176).

[Qwertystop]

An alternative: Just don't use it when not raging.

In most D&D settings, nobody can see class levels or feats (except Psions with Metafaculty, which still only gives class, not feats). So as long as you don't intrigue 18th-level Seers enough for them to burn 1000 XP on figuring out your build, nobody will know you're a War Hulk.

EDIT: Just looked up War Hulk, realized why you'd want to not qualify for it sometimes. Yeah - the size restriction is probably a better one to work with, because it's easier to get without having low STR for the build.

Might want to invest in extra/longer rages, too. It's not usually important, you won't usually run out, but in this case you'd be in a bit of a pickle due to losing several levels of saves, BAB, etc. Or do those get kept and it's just class abilities you lose?

[Thiyr]

The DMG however is the primary source for how PrCs work. It only requires the prerequisites to be met before taking the first level in the PrC (DMG P. 176).

Doesn't matter. Primary vs secondary only matters in situations where there is a contradiction. DMG does not state anything about prerequisites being filled after the first level is taken. In addition, CWar/Arc adds in that you must have them filled after as well, or you lose certain specific benefits. There is no part of that which is in contradiction to the previous rules present in the DMG.

Compare it to adding a new use for a skill in a book. Those new uses aren't only for people using classes from that book, just because they weren't printed in the PHB. If that book was talking about spot penalties generally being at a -5 for reactions while fascinated, though, it would be wrong and you would differ to the PHB (though if it were a specific case, you would of course differ to the new source, as specific trumps general outside of general cases)

[Fitz10019]

An alternative: Just don't use it when not raging.
This is the answer. Cleave is not compulsive. You don't have to do it.

Are you trying to get Cleave-while-raging to skip taking the feat? Were you hoping to find a magic item and not use a feat slot?

[Zanos]

This is the answer. Cleave is not compulsive. You don't have to do it.

Are you trying to get Cleave-while-raging to skip taking the feat? Were you hoping to find a magic item and not use a feat slot?
No, it's not. The OP is trying to selectively qualify for war hulk because having levels in the class prevents you from using and cha, int, or wis based skills.

[Zweisteine]

The answer is to ask your DM.

I'd say that as long as you are not able to rage (or do whatever) at will (or rather, if you are unable to rage every time you might wish to fight), this type of thing wouldn't be too unreasonable. If you can activate the ability enough that you rage every battle, you are gaining most of the class' benefits, but not being affected by the drawbacks.


My question now, after reading the PrC in question, is if it's really worth it. Losing iterative attacks is only worth the sweeping attacks if you frequently fight many enemies at once, and those are the battles where it's less important to be at your strongest anyway (war hulks are better at fighting lots of enemies than just one, but enemies you'll fight en masse aren't as strong in the first place, and enemies that fight you alone are generally stronger, I think).

[Fitz10019]

Ah, thanks for that clarification.

It may be easier for the OP to adjust when the character qualifies as Large.

A medium-sized druid only qualifies as Large when he assumes a Large animal form.

A Duergar is usually medium but has self-only Enlarge Person as an SLA. Would it be worth the LA+1?

Hell, just be medium, and only qualify when you take a potion of Enlarge Person. [Insert Popeye joke here.]

Perhaps a more legal way is to start with a Large race, take the prestige class, get a Reduce Person permanenced on you, and then whenever you take a potion of Enlarge Person, it temporarily counters the Reduce, activating all the War Hulk class features (and drawbacks).

Edit Update: Start as a medium race. Get a permanenced Enlarge Person to qualify for the prestige class. Drink a potion of Reduce person to dispel it (permanently). Take a potion of Enlarge Person whenever you want to activate all the War Hulk class features (and drawbacks).

[Andezzar]

My question now, after reading the PrC in question, is if it's really worth it. Losing iterative attacks is only worth the sweeping attacks if you frequently fight many enemies at once, and those are the battles where it's less important to be at your strongest anyway (war hulks are better at fighting lots of enemies than just one, but enemies you'll fight en masse aren't as strong in the first place, and enemies that fight you alone are generally stronger, I think).It gets better if you take the war Hulk levels at epic levels (+1 Epic AB/2 levels anyways), or have 7 or more levels of cleric (Divine Power). On the classic Fighter/Barbarian chassis the class is mediocre at best.

@No time to think: How many INT, WIS or CHA based skills does the character even have for it to matter? Additionally the rule only says he is treated as having 0 ranks in that skill. Any skill tied to mental attributes can still be used unless it cannot be used untrained. You only get no benefits from having ranks in it.

[SiuiS]

The spell Heroics would temporarily give you the Cleave feat.

Heroics might just do. Hmm. I think I can cheese my way into heroics as a supernatural ability...



It's also worth mentioning that Cleave is just an extra attack with a very specific (and not always common) trigger. There are tons of ways to add extra attacks permanently or temporarily. Are you hung up on Cleave, or do you just want Hulk = More Attacks?

I'm looking at the +10 str from those levels on a grappler. Asher Bruin, esq. is a turn-of-the-century style pugilist wrestler with reaping mauler levels. He already swings at a wibbly wobbly rules-grey huge size, so size wouldn't do it, and he's packing a high STR already so that's out.

His one debut fight involved a British accent, a great wyrm red dragon, liberal quoting of the Armstrong Family, and a DM who couldn't stop laughing long enough to gape. But he lost, and is seeking the proper combination of calisthenics, willpower and mystic oriental secrets to bring his game to the next level.


An alternative: Just don't use it when not raging.

Would still reduce the character to an antisocial gibbering moron. He's currently a lawyer, and however moronic they might be, they tend not to gibber. :smallbiggrin:

I am Mostly looking to circumvent the 'reduce all mental skills to 0 ranks' thing. The only way to do that is to not qualify for the class anymore. And the only prerequisite that is not native to the build is cleave.

[Curmudgeon]

Debatable. The passage in CWar states a general rule, and there is no contradictory text regarding PrCs in other books as far as I'm aware. There's a similar, but contradictory, rule in Complete Arcane (page 17).

If it was talking about "Prestige classes presented here", then you'd be definitively correct, but it is just talking about prestige classes in general.
Actually, it's specific to The Martial Prestige Classes. Because that phrase is used only in Complete Warrior, it is talking just about the PrCs in that book.