Star Wars fans and bad taste

[Pronounceable]

For some reason I started replaying KotoR2. Then I remembered something, which made me condemn the average SW fan for terrible taste once again (mild spoilers for KotoR2 following).

That Darth Maul was just a glorified extra yet somehow, just because he has a double lightsaber, he was considered to be a cool character. Which is bull**** ofc but we're talking about a fandom that's traditionally been shallow enough to latch onto a similar nonentity solely because of a neat looking set of armor.

On the other hand, we have Darth Traya from KotoR2. Completely disregarding her characterization and her part in the plot (because that's how fanboyism is done apparently), this one handed grandma duels with the protagonist traditionally until her remaining hand is cut off. Then completely unlike the other movie baddie who just fell down after losing his hands and awaited his fate, Darth Traya proceeds to wield three lightsabers with the Force and fights on.

Yet the movie Darths are considered awesome badass warriors while Traya languishes in obscurity. Just what is wrong with SW fandom? How can anybody's sense of coolness degrade so much? Mind boggles.

[BeerMug Paladin]

Movies reach a broader audience than a game. People generally only talk favorably about things they have experience with. There's bound to be far more people who have seen the movies than have seen the games.

I know someone who hates the SW EU (and the prequels) specifically because it makes Vader the most weaksauce villainous force user to ever exist. Basically retconning an awesome, fearsome villain into a joke of a threat. If any EU villain were in the original movies, then Luke, Vader, etc... Would not stand a chance against them.

[hamishspence]

There are are great many EU villains- some weak in the force but sneaky, some strong in the force but unsubtle.

And EU often expands on movie characters - EU Vader is a sneaky spinner of schemes in some books - EU Palpatine can be pretty terrifying even in stories set before RoTJ.

[Closet_Skeleton]

What 'average' Star Wars fan? Most of them have never played KotOR 2. Of the Star Wars EU fans who played KotOR, Kreia isn't ranked that low as a villain, she's probably the most popular of all the video game enemies.

KotOR got a dedicated book for the Star Wars Saga Edition RPG, Phantom Menace did not and Maul's stats were relegated to the monster manual equivalent.

On the other hand Darth Maul has several novels and comics and nobody from KotOR 2 appears much in anything but Maul's EU appearance are mostly there to expand on the stuff that was absent from Phantom Menace.

The main problem with Kreia in the setting is that she really makes no sense what so ever. This is mostly due to the ending making no sense due to being rushed but the plot is kind of nonsensical regardless. There's a wound in the force that could destroy everything? What does that mean? Does the ending stop that somehow? Is everyone still going to die? Is Kreia's death some kind of proxy for the Exile's death that seals the wound? Is this just a lazy remake of Planescape: Torment with the names changed? Why is everything even more lamely derivative of the movie aesthetic when the first KotOR was already too close?

Some people justify KotOR 2 not making thematic/philosophical sense with the rest of Star Wars by claiming that KotOR 2 did things better, but I don't see how that can justify the super generic energy Vampirism of the Dark Side Exile and Darth Nihilus.

[Broken Crown]

I don't know about the "average" Star Wars fan, but what I've seen of the EU has ranged from mediocre to terrible, with a general veneer of relentlessly unimaginative, so I ignore it.


That Darth Maul was just a glorified extra yet somehow, just because he has a double lightsaber, he was considered to be a cool character. Which is bull**** ofc but we're talking about a fandom that's traditionally been shallow enough to latch onto a similar nonentity solely because of a neat looking set of armor.
Considering just how bad and stupid The Phantom Menace was, it's not surprising that the fans felt the need to latch onto something. Darth Maul had a fairly cool visual aesthetic, so he was a better candidate than 90% of the stuff in the movie.

Never mind that he could have been cut completely without changing anything important – all he does, narratively, is kill Qui-Gon Jinn. Frankly, Qui-Gon could also have been cut completely without changing anything important. This just goes to show how pointless the movie was. Therefore, narrative importance and character development weren't important considerations as far as fan reactions went; if aesthetics were all they were given, that's what they went with.

I can't speak to the popularity of Boba Fett. In Empire, he didn't do much, but was set up to have potential. That potential wasn't used in Return of the Jedi, so he should have just been cut from that one.

[Cikomyr]

Except that you compare apples and oranges.

Darth Maul's combat skills is pretty much all there ever is about him, canon-wise. We never see another aspect of his character. His combat skills are top-notch (thanks to the actor), but that's about it.

Darth Traya... or whatever she genuinely is.. .... well, that's the thing. No offence, but when I think of that character's awesomeness, I don't think of her combat skill or how she mastered triple-lightsaber telekinesis.

I remember how subtly and deftly she manipulates everything and everybody. How she sets in motion events, guide people into subtly reaching the conclusion she wants, and still manage to speedchess and spin everything that she hasn't planned for, yet come ahead.

In fact, her appearance as Final Boss was a huge letdown for me (but then again, rushed final). Because we had established that Darth Traya wasn't ZE UBER SITH. That role befell Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus. And they schooled her when it came to power. Utterly. He strenght was in her manipulation skills, her foretought and the utter alienness of her final objective; the final message being that this is also what made Revan one genuine awesome individual. Not his uber-power with The Force, but instead his adaptive and proactive mind who could see the subtle threads of life around him and pull them in a way that never reveal the puppetmaster.

[Tengu_temp]

Being a Star Wars fan is pretty much synonymous with having bad taste, and I say that as a Star Wars fan. Just look at all those crappy EU novels, man.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Being a Star Wars fan is pretty much synonymous with having bad taste, and I say that as a Star Wars fan. Just look at all those crappy EU novels, man.

Also synonomous with self-loathing and attempts to be ironic rather than recognize that in a huge franchise that started with a cheesy adventure film, there's bound to be both good and bad.


And regarding the original topic, Darth Traya is the final boss of a game that was released before it was actually finished, and needed fanmodding to go from being unpolished and full of continuity errors to semi-polished and a quarter full of continuity errors. It's a tad obscure.

[Friv]

That Darth Maul was just a glorified extra yet somehow, just because he has a double lightsaber, he was considered to be a cool character. Which is bull**** ofc but we're talking about a fandom that's traditionally been shallow enough to latch onto a similar nonentity solely because of a neat looking set of armor.

I don't know about you, but I latched onto Darth Maul because he was played by Ray Park, and Ray Park is consistently the best element of so-so movies.


On the other hand, we have Darth Traya from KotoR2. Completely disregarding her characterization and her part in the plot (because that's how fanboyism is done apparently), this one handed grandma duels with the protagonist traditionally until her remaining hand is cut off. Then completely unlike the other movie baddie who just fell down after losing his hands and awaited his fate, Darth Traya proceeds to wield three lightsabers with the Force and fights on.

Yet the movie Darths are considered awesome badass warriors while Traya languishes in obscurity. Just what is wrong with SW fandom? How can anybody's sense of coolness degrade so much? Mind boggles.

The Phantom Menace pulled in a billion dollars at the box office. The video sold five million copies in the first two days of its release. It would not be a stretch to suggest that a hundred million or more people have seen it.

KoToR II sold between one and two million copies, total.

When a character is fifty to a hundred times more well known than another character, you shouldn't be surprised that the less well-known character tends to stay that way.

[Ravian]

I don't know about you, but I latched onto Darth Maul because he was played by Ray Park, and Ray Park is consistently the best element of so-so movies.


Toad in X-men begs to differ. Though to be fair that's probably out of the realm of so-so and into the realm of pretty good (though X2 was much better).

[GeekGirl]

That Darth Maul was just a glorified extra yet somehow, just because he has a double lightsaber, he was considered to be a cool character.


The draw for Darth Maul (for me at least), was his presence. The first time I saw A New Hope as a kid; when Vader first showed up, I was terrified. He was big, dark, powerful, and just intimidating. You just just knew he was the the worse kind of bad guy. Enter The Phantom Menace, I had that same feeling when Maul showed up. His on screen presence was reminiscent or Vader. And honestly, he was one of the best parts of that movie.

He may not be as "cool" as some other character, but he felt like the old trilogy which really hit home.

[MLai]

Yes, 2 things made Darth Maul stand out in a mediocre movie:
(1) Aesthetic charisma. Kudos to the artist designer.
(2) Ray Park. Kudos to his years of training.

Toad in X-men begs to differ. Though to be fair that's probably out of the realm of so-so and into the realm of pretty good (though X2 was much better).
What was wrong with Toad?
Wait don't tell me, did Ray Park not look like Toad in the comics?

[Ravian]

Yes, 2 things made Darth Maul stand out in a mediocre movie:
(1) Aesthetic charisma. Kudos to the artist designer.
(2) Ray Park. Kudos to his years of training.

What was wrong with Toad?
Wait don't tell me, did Ray Park not look like Toad in the comics?

No I have no problem with a combat competent toad. But he was still somewhat mediocre to me. I'm not saying he was the worst part (though if he wasn't there we wouldn't have that awful "What happens when a toad's struck by lightning?" line).

I suppose I was just hoping for somewhat a bit more talkative (As is he had to compete with Sabertooth for the silent fighting henchman role)

Don't get me wrong Ray Park is very good when it comes to playing intimidating physical characters, I'm just saying that he wasn't the best part of that movie, and I will admit I was hoping for something like the Ultimate Universe's Toad
http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111028224402/x-men/images/b/b0/Toad_X-Men.jpg
(Though I'm mainly concerned with the banter and personality over actual appearance)

Sorry If I offended you, just disputing that Ray Park's usually the best part of so-so movies.

[MLai]

I'm not offended. If you think Ray Park was bad as Toad, you need to watch Ray Park as Rugal in King Of Fighters.
I wonder if that hilarious KoF Movie Abridged video is still floating around somewhere...