Spirit Shaman and PrC spells

[Grim Reader]

I can't really wrap my head around how the Spirit Shamans spellcasting mechanic interacts with some PrCs.

Prepared or spontaneous? I'd have to say spontaneous. but what if a PrC adds spells known, like Fiend Blooded or Sand Shaper? Bloodline feats? Would these spells count as "always retrieved" or would the character gain no benefit from them?

[nedz]

It depends, which PrCs were you looking at ?

If it just adds a domain, then the domains spells get added to your class list — from which you can retrieve them. This is all explained in CDiv.

[Chronos]

I would say that a Spirit Shaman/Sandshaper can retrieve as many spells from the druid list as normal for the class, and in addition always has the Sandshaper spells available just like spells you've retrieved.

[Urpriest]

In general, this is a blind spot in the Spirit Shaman rules. I'd let something that adds spells known add "permanent spells retrieved", but that would be a houserule.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I would say that it adds to the spell list, not "permanent spells retrieved," but I'm pretty sure there's now RAW one way or the other.

[Grim Reader]

MMh, yes.

I have been thinking of treating the Spirit Shaman as a spontaneous caster with spells known = 0. Feats, PrC abilities etc that add to spells known would then increase their pool of spells known from 0. Then, they could use their spell slots to either cast retrived spells or known ones.

Their number of retrieved spells is so low that I don't think it'll unbalance them.

[nedz]

Sounds reasonable, but they are Tier 1 or Tier 2 depending upon who you talk to. So: if you are trying to balance them against High Tier classes then this is a very reasonable house rule; but if you take the low tier classes into account then there are other issues to be addressed first.

[Grim Reader]

Not really trying to balance them, more trying to work out a consistent way of handling this before the situation arises. In relation to my players, I think looking at which spells get added would be more important.

We're playing 3.5, but some players wanted to try the cool Pathfinder classes. I don't like saying no without good reason, so I said OK. The result is that our main balance issue is that at low levels a Magus flat-out dominates a 3.5 Sorcerer.

[ksbsnowowl]

The question of spontaneous or prepared caster also pertains to if Spirit Shaman can make use of Vile and Sanctified spells.

[Grim Reader]

And things like Versatile Spellcaster, as well as metamagic.

I am becoming more confident in my personal interpretation though:

Spirit Shamans are Divine Spontaneous casters without any spells known. Their spells they cast are retrived spells. However, if they should aquire spells known, they can cast them using their spell slots like any other spontaneous caster.

[Fax Celestis]

I've always just assumed it would add them to the list of retrievable spells and you'd have to retrieve them like any other spell. That makes it functionally identical to a spontaneous limited spells known caster (like a sorcerer) who still has to spend a known spell slot on it. But that's in the case of a feature that adds it to your spell list, not to your spells known. In that case, I would almost definitely make them permanently retrieved spells.

[Jeff the Green]

I think there are two reasonable options. First, they are added to your list and retrieved and cast as normal. Second, they are permanently retrieved, but you can only cast each once per day. The first is likely closer to RAW, but I like the second better.

[Grim Reader]

I think it depends a little on wording. Like Fax Celestis said, if they're added to your list, you'd have to retrieve them, but if they are added to your spells known, you wouldn't. Or so I feel.

Luckily, most complicating options are for Arcane casters. Only Desert Insight adds spells to any list, and that Sand Shaper is hard to qualify for without Arcane casting.

[Chronos]

Yeah, if it just adds to your spell list, like Arcane Disciple (which isn't available to Spirit Shamans, but like that), then you'd have to retrieve them like anything else. If it adds to your spells known, like Sand Shaper, then they're always available and can't be traded away.

(Depending on precisely how the Spirit Shaman is worded, it might be technically RAW that Sand Shaper would let them trade away those spells for other spells retrieved, too, but that would be horribly overpowered and should not be done)

[nedz]

I think it helps to ask this question.

How would you apply metamagic to these spells ?

Now

If a spirit shaman knows any metamagic feats, she applies them to her spells when she retrieves her spells for the day.

If the spells didn't need to be retrieved then you would have no mechanism for applying metamagic.