Hel needs some sunlight...

[Kruploy]

With those huge dark circles around her eyes and ghastly pale skin, Hel looks pretty messed up.

With her finally having a shot to one-up Thor, you would think that she would at least dress up presentably for the occasion but nope, she still wears the same old tattered rags.

Honestly no wonder she gets no love, nobody likes a slob.

Poor Durkon lol.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

With those huge dark circles around her eyes and ghastly pale skin, Hel looks pretty messed up.

With her finally having a shot to one-up Thor, you would think that she would at least dress up presentably for the occasion but nope, she still wears the same old tattered rags.

Honestly no wonder she gets no love, nobody likes a slob.

Poor Durkon lol.
Well, she's prettier than how she is usually portrayed. In Norse mythology, half of her body is like that of a corpse, while the other is like a human's. I'm sure she will actually dress up when she has actually put her plan into action. I don't really think appearances matter when it is probably fairly easy for Hel to make some sort of glamour to make herself look prettier.

[Rakoa]

Well, she's prettier than how she is usually portrayed. In Norse mythology, half of her body is like that of a corpse, while the other is like a human's.

Like, Two Face style? Or we talkin' waist up?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Like, Two Face style? Or we talkin' waist up?
Two Face style. Not very pretty.

[Vinyadan]

Two Face style. Not very pretty.

You know what Piero della Francesca would say: if they lack the right eye, just take the other side. :smalltongue:

http://s28.postimg.org/8bha3h9cd/yupppi.jpg

Pity for the nose, he had it sawed to give the left eye a bigger field of vision.

[NerdyKris]

With those huge dark circles around her eyes and ghastly pale skin, Hel looks pretty messed up.

With her finally having a shot to one-up Thor, you would think that she would at least dress up presentably for the occasion but nope, she still wears the same old tattered rags.

Honestly no wonder she gets no love, nobody likes a slob.

Poor Durkon lol.

So a god of hell shows up, and your criticism of it is to complain about her looks and that she can't get "love" (as in a man), because she's female. Would you be making this same post if Hel was a male?

[MadZuri]

That came out of left field. The OP made no mention of gender preference, that was your assumption. No need to look for ways to get offended.

[Haar]

So a god of hell shows up, and your criticism of it is to complain about her looks and that she can't get "love" (as in a man), because she's female. Would you be making this same post if Hel was a male?

Adding to what MadZuri stated, the correct terminology is "goddess".

[Loreweaver15]

Yeah, as silly as Kruploy is, the 'gets no love' means 'gets no worshippers'. Still, kind of a nutty thing to comment on; every god of the underworld looks like they lost a fight with a sentient goth makeup kit :/

[Amphiox]

So a god of hell shows up, and your criticism of it is to complain about her looks and that she can't get "love" (as in a man), because she's female. Would you be making this same post if Hel was a male?

I suspect that Kruploy probably would.

It's tongue in cheek. Like the time he suggested that Elan should take an alignment hit for not showing proper filial piety towards Tarquin.

OTOH, If Hel get too much sunlight, she may need a new high priest.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Yeah, as silly as Kruploy is, the 'gets no love' means 'gets no worshippers'. Still, kind of a nutty thing to comment on; every god of the underworld looks like they lost a fight with a sentient goth makeup kit :/

I don't think Ereshkagal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) looked all that bad. :smallbiggrin:

[Mith]

I think in this case, Hel is a corpse from the waist down, which is why she wears long dresses. So she is dressed up for the occasion. Otherwise you would see her rotting legs.

[Kruploy]

So a god of hell shows up, and your criticism of it is to complain about her looks and that she can't get "love" (as in a man), because she's female. Would you be making this same post if Hel was a male?

Of course! Don't you know anything about about fashion? In fact, fashion or the lack of understanding there of is my main beef with Thor.

Just look at him; a plain suit of armor, an outdated and overused helmet and an unstylish beard. He looks like any random dwarvish deity would look. There is nothing to set him aside as the mighty Thor.

Now Loki, that's a true fashionista, blazing red eyes and an awesome flaming cape to go with it and all this despite the frost giant blood in his veins. Truly Loki is a revoluionary crafter of the fine arts of fashion.

Also, Loreweaver15 is right on the love meaning worshippers part. I know it's tough to keep our minds out of the gutter when a hot chick is involved but I don't think it's fair to Hel to sexualise her right of the bat and I would appreciate if you would refrain from doing so. :smallwink:

[jere7my]

Adding to what MadZuri stated, the correct terminology is "goddess".

Insisting on the diminutive gender-marked term isn't actually helping your case.

[Vinyadan]

Insisting on the diminutive gender-marked term isn't actually helping your case.

I keep looking around like a shipwreck victim in search for a strip of land, and still I have to ask where the diminutive is.

[Unisus]

Insisting on the diminutive gender-marked term isn't actually helping your case.

The thing is more, if someone would see gender-marking of a term as diminuating. While it may not be necessary to refer to any gender, most words we have don't have an actual neutral form.

I for my share do not see godess as less than god, just more informative.

But i agree that in the case at hand godess would have been the wrong term.

[Vinyadan]

The thing is more, if someone would see gender-marking of a term as diminuating. While it may not be necessary to refer to any gender, most words we have don't have an actual neutral form.

I for my share do not see godess as less than god, just more informative.

But i agree that in the case at hand godess would have been the wrong term.

It is interesting how different languages generate different formae mentis. In many languages, you simply don't have a neutral form, and the only way to avoid gender-marking would be to speak another language.

Anyway, gender-marking isn't diminutive in itself. It simply isn't one of the info it conveys. Had it been something like "goddie" or "godette", I would have understood this. The fact that the English language doesn't have many productive diminutives probably doesn't help.

Would a name like "divinity" have been better placed? It comes from a feminine, too.

[Math_Mage]

With those huge dark circles around her eyes and ghastly pale skin, Hel looks like a death goddess.
All that needs to be said, really. All this stuff about gendered pronouns and sexism is assuming a very different intent than Kruploy probably had.

[jere7my]

I keep looking around like a shipwreck victim in search for a strip of land, and still I have to ask where the diminutive is.

-ess is sometimes viewed as diminutive; it implies a smaller, prettier, more feminine version of the unmarked norm. A steward can sit the throne of Gondor; a stewardess asks you if you'd like a Diet Coke. Today, people say flight attendant, which doesn't pointlessly mark gender (and annoys Denethor to no end).

To quote one of the WotC team leads for Magic: the Gathering on their decision not to use the word "goddess":


Yeah, we felt we didn’t need another word for "divine being that’s female" — that just tends to make it sound like "male divine being" is the default, and "lady god" is the special weird exception. Nylea is a god. Thassa is a god.

That said, I don't think choosing to use the term "goddess" is in itself sexist, but insisting that "god" can only be applied to male deities by others rings some alarm bells.

Edit: And in support of the original criticism, people always say that they could just as easily point out when male characters aren't well dressed, don't look handsome, need to spruce up a little, but when it comes down to it it's almost always the female characters who receive the criticisms about their personal appearance.

[jere7my]

All that needs to be said, really. All this stuff about gendered pronouns and sexism is assuming a very different intent than Kruploy probably had.

I'm not sure your restatement makes sense. If Kruploy was really meaning to say "This death goddess looks like a death goddess," why would she need to change what she's doing? I'd think that would be just about right—if the point was that Hel looks like she's supposed to look, why suggest she could use some makeup and a pretty new dress?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

why suggest she could use some makeup and a pretty new dress?

That's a pretty good question. :smalltongue:
Why was the OP suggesting that Hel's main problem was her physical appearance? :smallconfused:

[Math_Mage]

I'm not sure your restatement makes sense. If Kruploy was really meaning to say "This death goddess looks like a death goddess," why would she need to change what she's doing? I'd think that would be just about right—if the point was that Hel looks like she's supposed to look, why suggest she could use some makeup and a pretty new dress?
I was doing two different things in my post at once, which led to confusion.

First, I was saying that all of Kruploy's complaints are irrelevant because Hel's appearance is utterly normal for a death goddess.

Second, I was trying to point out that...well, that a sexism debate is a predictable outcome given the OP.

[Kruploy]

I'm not sure your restatement makes sense. If Kruploy was really meaning to say "This death goddess looks like a death goddess," why would she need to change what she's doing? I'd think that would be just about right—if the point was that Hel looks like she's supposed to look, why suggest she could use some makeup and a pretty new dress?

Well I saw Hel's ghastly appearance and said, "you know what? Hel may be a death goddess but she isn't herself dead. She needs some fashion advice. All this goth stuff is so yesterday."

and BOOM, new thread.

No sexims involved involved whatsoever. In fact, I find it quite insulting that some guy implied that I was being sexist for critisizing a woman on her appearance.

It's really quite telling of how far some people take the sexism panic and start to see discrimination where there is none lol. :smalltongue:

[Amphiox]

Of course, Hel IS pictured as half-dead.

See, every other cell is dead. That's why the hair is grey, for example. Half of them are vibrant, living, and black (Hel's natural hair color). The other half are dead, dessicated, and white.

And those bags under her eyes? That's just where there's a slightly higher concentration of dead skin cells than the rest of her face.

[RadagastTheBrow]

I think in this case, Hel is a corpse from the waist down, which is why she wears long dresses. So she is dressed up for the occasion. Otherwise you would see her rotting legs.

But... stick figures...


-ess is sometimes viewed as diminutive; it implies a smaller, prettier, more feminine version of the unmarked norm. A steward can sit the throne of Gondor; a stewardess asks you if you'd like a Diet Coke. Today, people say flight attendant, which doesn't pointlessly mark gender (and annoys Denethor to no end).


Steward went crazy and set himself on fire while sabotaging the war efforts to fight the Dark Lord. I'll take the flight attendant, thanks. I'd rather have somebody who hands out snacks and refreshments than a lawmaker any day.

[NerdyKris]

That came out of left field. The OP made no mention of gender preference, that was your assumption. No need to look for ways to get offended.

No it didn't. This is a forum where Laurin's appearance prompted debates of why Haley didn't call her a skank, and whether she wanted to marry Tarquin, based on nothing but her gender.

I'm sorry people don't like having their casual sexism pointed out, but that's the only way things change. The opening post was focusing on Hel's appearance in a way that would not have been done had it been Hades, who typically has a similar sunken and tattered appearance.

Hel's appearance is appropriate for a death god. The opening post implies that because she is female, she has a duty to be pretty for the viewer, a requirement that is never applied to men.

[Kruploy]

No it didn't. This is a forum where Laurin's appearance prompted debates of why Haley didn't call her a skank, and whether she wanted to marry Tarquin, based on nothing but her gender.

I'm sorry people don't like having their casual sexism pointed out, but that's the only way things change. The opening post was focusing on Hel's appearance in a way that would not have been done had it been Hades, who typically has a similar sunken and tattered appearance.

Hel's appearance is appropriate for a death god. The opening post implies that because she is female, she has a duty to be pretty for the viewer, a requirement that is never applied to men.

Come on, I JUST wrote that I would have commented on Hel's appearance if she was a he. Ignoring rebuttals and addressing them is not a good way of supporting your argument. It just makes you look bad and neurotic.

First of all, I am not the forum. What happened in the past in this forum is in no way relevant to this specific thread unless the same people are involved.

Second, the sunken, tattered look makes Hades look badass rather than simply bad. This is because he also tends to wear a big suit of armor with huge spikes sticking out all over the place. Hel here, on the other hand, looks like a hag instead.

Third, I never stated she had a duty to anything. That's just you attempting to put words into my mouth to justify your overreaction which is, quite frankly, just silly.

I will type this for the last time: I am not sexist. You have no right to label me sexist without a convincing argument with substantial evidence of sexist behaviour on my part.

If you still intend to insult me and cause further unrest, leave the thread and go elsewhere. Otherwise, if you intend to be civil about your opinions we can discuss at lenght as to why you think criticizing someone's appearance is sexist.

[JennTora]

In some portrayals, hel appears as her living half to the dead, and her dead half to the living. So maybe it's because durkula doesn't have a pulse.

[RadagastTheBrow]

the sunken, tattered look makes Hades look badass rather than simply bad. This is because he also tends to wear a big suit of armor with huge spikes sticking out all over the place. Hel here, on the other hand, looks like a hag instead.


Out of curiosity, where do we ever see Hades in the comic? Or are you referring to another Hades? I can think of the Wonder Woman version, (http://dcanimated.wikia.com/wiki/Hades) who looks kinda generic, the Disney version (http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120719235936/disney/images/8/8d/219599_large.jpg)who, while awesome, is so mostly for personality rather than aesthetic, and the God of War version (http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120728175833/godofwar/es/images/2/23/Hades.jpg), who, eh, looks okay I guess, I mostly know him for spending a lot of time getting stabbed. Seriously, we need more cool depictions of Hades around here.

[EDIT] Oh, and Final Fantasy 7 Hades (http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080810133149/finalfantasy/images/b/bc/Hades_FFVII_Summon.jpg) was cool, I forgot about him.

[Zmeoaice]

In some portrayals, hel appears as her living half to the dead, and her dead half to the living. So maybe it's because durkula doesn't have a pulse.

We see her twice before, and she has the same appearance to Thor's eyes, and he's probably "living" or at least would see her as helf-dead.


Out of curiosity, where do we ever see Hades in the comic?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html

The gray one with the blue beard might be him, but I'm not sure. Doesn't look as slobby as Hel.

[RadagastTheBrow]

We see her twice before, and she has the same appearance to Thor's eyes, and he's probably "living" or at least would see her as helf-dead.



http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html

The gray one with the blue beard might be him, but I'm not sure. Doesn't look as slobby as Hel.

Cool, thanks!

[Zmeoaice]

Yup, it's Hades.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html


The opening post was focusing on Hel's appearance in a way that would not have been done had it been Hades, who typically has a similar sunken and tattered appearance.


Apparently not in this strip, if you payed attention to the crayon drawings.



Hel's appearance is appropriate for a death god.

The other death god is anthro Lion with wings. There's no rule for how a death god should look.

[jere7my]

Come on, I JUST wrote that I would have commented on Hel's appearance if she was a he. Ignoring rebuttals and addressing them is not a good way of supporting your argument. It just makes you look bad and neurotic.

It's very easy, when you're called on a sexist statement, to say, "Aw, man, I totally would have said the same thing about a dude!" Maybe you would have. But you didn't.

Whether you yourself are sexist or not—and, honestly, referring to concerns about sexism as "the sexism panic" doesn't score you points on that front—criticizing Hel based on her appearance feeds into the widely-held social expectation that women have an obligation to be pretty. Even when women are doing something completely unrelated to sex or attraction, like leading a corporate meeting or running for president or communing with their dark followers, people point out their makeup or clothing choices or hairstyles in ways that go far beyond what they say about men. That makes singling a woman out for criticism based on her appearance, when her appearance has nothing to do with what she's doing at the moment, a sexist act. Even if you didn't mean it to be.

Hel is a death god; dressing in tatters with pale skin and hollow eyes is totally appropriate. Based on years of observation, I'll say that a male death god dressed in the same way would probably pass without comment, because "creepy" and "cadaverous" are accepted ways for evil male half-dead beings to look. Of course, you claim you would've said the same about Hades, but whether you would have or not it's still not cool to say it about Hel—the same way it would not be cool to refer to Roy as "boy", even if you would've said the same thing about a white character.

Edit: You probably also want to be careful about saying a female character "looks like a hag." Hag, in addition to being a D&D monster, is a real-world insult applied to women who aren't fulfilling their obligation to be pretty.


I will type this for the last time: I am not sexist. You have no right to label me sexist without a convincing argument with substantial evidence of sexist behaviour on my part.

We all have the right to label your statements sexist, regardless of your intention. If you accidentally say something sexist and you are yourself a feminist, the correct response is, "Oops, sorry," not "Ha ha, more feminist panic!"

[Zmeoaice]

It's very easy, when you're called on a sexist statement, to say, "Aw, man, I totally would have said the same thing about a dude!" Maybe you would have. But you didn't.


That's irrelevant.


Even when women are doing something completely unrelated to sex or attraction, like leading a corporate meeting or running for president or communing with their dark followers, people point out their makeup or clothing choices or hairstyles in ways that go far beyond what they say about men.


Well, that's because they have a lot more choices than men. What are you going to say? "He's wearing a black suit instead of a dark blue one."

I'll bet that if a man wore whatever those female politicians, 1%ers, and evil gods wore, it would be pointed out a lot more than it would be on a woman.


That makes singling a woman out for criticism based on her appearance, when her appearance has nothing to do with what she's doing at the moment, a sexist act. Even if you didn't mean it to be.


No, sexism is holding men and women to different standards based solely on their sex. If Krul didn't single out a slobby male death god, then you'd have a point, but Hel's the only one around.



We all have the right to label your statements sexist, regardless of your intention. If you accidentally say something sexist and you are yourself a feminist, the correct response is, "Oops, sorry," not "Ha ha, more feminist panic!"

You have the right to label his comments as sexist. And you would be wrong.

[jere7my]

Well, that's because they have a lot more choices than men. What are you going to say? "He's wearing a black suit instead of a dark blue one."

The fact that women are obligated to wear makeup and high heels in professional contexts when men are not is, in fact, support for my position. If women weren't called upon to be constantly pretty they wouldn't have to put so much thought into the "lot more choices" you point out.


No, sexism is holding men and women to different standards based solely on their sex. If Krul didn't single out a slobby male death god, then you'd have a point, but Hel's the only one around.

There are actually several male characters in the comic, if you haven't noticed. If "Krul" wants to direct us to his comments about their appearance, he's welcome to.


And you would be wrong.

If what?

[Rakoa]

{SCRUBBED}

[jere7my]

{SCRUBBED}

[The Giant]

Yeah, this thread is done.