Arcane Duelist: Cooler than I thought.

[Snowbluff]

I've been mulling over a rapier build for a character I drew, and I was thinking about what classes I should. I have a White Raven PrC on a sticky, but I wasn't too interested in introducing it yet. Swiftblade was one option, but while it's accurate to the character's abilities, I use it too frequently.

So I dug around and ran into Arcane Duelist again (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a). I thought about it, and decided to put something together.

What I have right now is Half-Elf Duskblade1/Warblade5/ArcaneDuelist7/Eternalblade(assuming Half-Elf is allowed entry).

For Feats, I was thinking:

F:Weapon Focus (EB)
F:Dodge (For arcane duelist)
3:Mobility (same)
1:Drow Legacy (DoTU. Gives more SLAs, tacked on with the DB ones.)
6:Power Attack.
9:Weapon Finesse (Maybe)
12:EWP: Kaorti Resin Rapier

SLA feat:
15:Deceptive Illumination (Silent Image)
18:Gift of the Spider Queen (Mirror Image is covered by Arcane Duelist, but blinding vanish is cool)


The idea is to use Dextrous Attack and False Keenness with Blood in the Water to rack up a large number of critical hits and bonuses. Eternal Blade can give Time Stands Still, and Arcane Duelist gives the option for more attacks as well.

False Keenness is an interesting ability. I would liken it to a critical based power attack. It stacks with Keen specifically, like the Disciple of Dispater. Depending on your reading of 'normal' (Prior to this effect or prior to all effects?) you can get another 3 or 6 to your threat range. With Kaorti Resin, an 11-20/x4 weapon is possible without using a Ninja-To. Rapiers don't deny you the use of Two-Handed Power Attack (fluffed as using it in one hand), so you can get some good damage this way.

My question for you guys is: How would you guys use this class?

[thethird]

Combine this:

Dexterous Attack (Ex): Because the arcane duelist values successful hits over actual damage dealt, she can subtract damage from her chosen melee weapon's potential damage and add the same amount to her attack bonus. However, the weapon must do a minimum 1 point of damage. For example, the arcane duelist who wields a rapier as her chosen weapon can subtract up to 5 points from the damage, since the rapier has a damage potential of 6 points, and add that to her attack bonus. If she were wielding a +3 rapier, she could subtract up to 8 points from damage, since the weapon has a damage potential of 9 points, and add that to her attack bonus. The arcane duelist declares this power before rolling her attack, and the amount subtracted cannot exceed her base attack bonus.

With:

Power Attack [General]
[...]On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Special
If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. [...]

Have fun adding your BAB to damage.

[Snowbluff]

Didn't I make that clear in the OP? Woops. :smalltongue:

I'm thinking builds.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd stick to just two or four levels of Arcane Duelist, the BAB loss is too much IMO, and you can fit a lot of X stat (Cha) to Y bonus effects in a single build.

Dextrous Attack works better with two-handed Power Attack. You take -BAB to hit for +2(BAB) damage, and take -BAB damage to get +BAB to hit, leaving you with a net +BAB to damage. Or you take half your BAB to hit for your BAB in damage from Power Attack, and use Dextrous Attack to subtract your BAB from damage to add your BAB to hit, gaining a net +(BAB)/2 to hit. Throw in Armbands of Might and you get an extra +2 damage to any of those.

Keep in mind that this prestige class was printed during 3.0, when a Keen weapon still stacked with Improved Critical. For that reason many DMs may implement a 3.5 update that makes False Keenness not stack with anything else that improves your threat range.

If you're looking for a high threat range, Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) 7 increases your threat range by a flat two points. You can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order, so with a 18-20 (3 numbers) weapon you apply that first, bringing it to 16-20 (5 numbers). Improved Critical is applied afterward, doubling the current threat range to 11-20 (10 numbers).

[Snowbluff]

I'd stick to just two or four levels of Arcane Duelist, the BAB loss is too much IMO, and you can fit a lot of X stat (Cha) to Y bonus effects in a single build. I've thought about it. 7 levels is awesome. At ten, you can bludgeon as single person really easily (1d4+3 extra full attacks). 15 BAB is where the build ends, which is good enough for rogue type builds.

I had wanted to use Bard for Snowflake Wardance, but it doesn't work with Rapiers.:smallfrown:

Battledancer for double Cha to AC would be cool, though. I'm not sure how I feel about that without a sure with to get a better to-hit. I'll think about it...

On a side note, A shadow pouncer would be sooo cool. The tenth level ability is a Full Attack Action, which means you can activate it on a shadow pounce. *drools*


Dextrous Attack works better with two-handed Power Attack. You take -BAB to hit for +2(BAB) damage, and take -BAB damage to get +BAB to hit, leaving you with a net +BAB to damage. Or you take half your BAB to hit for your BAB in damage from Power Attack, and use Dextrous Attack to subtract your BAB from damage to add your BAB to hit, gaining a net +(BAB)/2 to hit. Throw in Armbands of Might and you get an extra +2 damage to any of those.Said the man speaking the poster who said the rapier is in two hands. :smalltongue:


Keep in mind that this prestige class was printed during 3.0, when a Keen weapon still stacked with Improved Critical. For that reason many DMs may implement a 3.5 update that makes False Keenness not stack with anything else that improves your threat range. "Many DMs" doesn't mean "RAW." If anything, the PrC you presented acts as precedent for maintaining this ability.


If you're looking for a high threat range, Psychic Weapon Master (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d) 7 increases your threat range by a flat two points. You can apply your own effects in the most beneficial order, so with a 18-20 (3 numbers) weapon you apply that first, bringing it to 16-20 (5 numbers). Improved Critical is applied afterward, doubling the current threat range to 11-20 (10 numbers).
7 levels of that is worse than seven level of this for the build. Not to mention if I may apply effects in dubious order, Arcane Duelist gets a crit range past 10 numbers, and I don't need a feat slot for it. Psionic progression and full BAB are nice, but Arcane Duelist pretty much gets its extra enhancements for free, and is somehow easier to enter.

I might evenetually make a weapon master for something else. Maybe I'll make a whip ardent sort of deal. I'd never thought I would say there was a class with clunkier requirements than the Arcane Duelist, though. :smalltongue:

[Seerow]

I'm sorry, I just can't get over a class that has both half BAB and no casting progression. It gets a couple of nice features, but nothing nice enough to make up for that. Like BF said, taking more than a handful of levels in the class is going to be bad for you. I can't imagine going further than 3 levels to nab dextrous attack. False Keenness just isn't worth it.

It would be a much more interesting and potentially useful class with even 3/4th BAB and 7-8/10 casting. But as it is you give up too much for too little.

[Doc_Maynot]

Looked through this
I now want to make a Battle Dancer 2/ Bard 2/ Fighter 2/ Chaos Monk 2/ Arcane Duelist 10

Flurry of Swords (Ex): The pinnacle of the arcane duelist's power is to create a flurry of sword attacks against a single target. When this power is activated, the arcane duelist makes one additional attack each round at her highest base attack bonus, but each attack that round suffers a -2 penalty. All attacks must be made on the same opponent. Further, the arcane duelist creates 1d4 quasi-real images plus 1 additional image per three levels of arcane duelist. Each image attacks the same opponent as the arcane duelist herself using the same bonuses as the arcane duelist, and any hits do subdual damage to the target. This power is usable once per day per arcane duelist level, but only once per day against any opponent. It requires the full-attack action to use this power. Aside from these differences, the images act as the mirror image spell.

So with this build I can attack between 15 and 48 times per turn, with the attack bonuses being +11, +6, +1 before factoring in items (Slippers of battle Dancing), Snowflake Wardance (Versatile Unarmed Strike to make it work with unarmed attacks), and Lingering Song for about +6 with Bardic Music(Song of the Heart, Inspirational Boost, and Words of Creation).

[Snowbluff]

I'm sorry, I just can't get over a class that has both half BAB and no casting progression. It gets a couple of nice features, but nothing nice enough to make up for that. Like BF said, taking more than a handful of levels in the class is going to be bad for you. I can't imagine going further than 3 levels to nab dextrous attack. False Keenness just isn't worth it.

It would be a much more interesting and potentially useful class with even 3/4th BAB and 7-8/10 casting. But as it is you give up too much for too little.
Most builds aren't luck enough enough to have casting at all. The above build have ninth level maneuvers twice a day and a bunch of SLAs, but an ability that's Time Stands Still 5 times over. False Keenness let's you crit on almost every attack that can hit, and for x4 damage. x2 damage is enough for people to take levels in monk.

I'd say 1/2 casting or 1/2 BAB. Anything more than that is pretty high in terms of squish potential. 3/4 BAB on 7/10 Casting, or a separate 5/9 or 6/9 spellcasting ability would be my personal fix, but that completely mercs almost every melee/low-gish build.

[Nihilarian]

I'd do something like Duskblade 3/Warblade 5/Arcane Duelist 2/Legacy Champion 10/

A few spells and Arcane Channeling, a few maneuvers, 16 BAB, a magic weapon and all the goodies of the Arcane Duelist.

[Cikomyr]

Take Leap Attack with that combination, so you can have 3x your BAB bonus in damage, while taking no penalty.

[Chronos]

Keep in mind that the Arcane Duelist's weapon enhancement explicitly stacks with the weapon's actual enhancement bonus, which goes a long way towards making up the attack bonus you're missing (though without the extra iteratives).

Where AD really shines, though, is in gestalt. Put it next to warblade or duskblade, and the half BAB doesn't matter at all.

[Seerow]

Keep in mind that the Arcane Duelist's weapon enhancement explicitly stacks with the weapon's actual enhancement bonus, which goes a long way towards making up the attack bonus you're missing (though without the extra iteratives).

On the other hand it explicitly caps the total weapon's bonus at +10. So while you could get a +5 Weapon and Arcane Duelist boosts it to +10, you couldn't have any weapon properties on that weapon. Personally I'd rather have the +1 with +9 worth of properties and boost to +5 with Greater Magic Weapon.


Where AD really shines, though, is in gestalt. Put it next to warblade or duskblade, and the half BAB doesn't matter at all.

Agreed, in a gestalt game where you can get the cool features without any of the drawbacks, the class is very nice.

[Nihilarian]

Another interesting (though likely underpowered) idea is to get a class granted magic weapon. Such as the Soulknife, Pyrokineticist or Shadow Sentinel. Could be fun.

[Snowbluff]

I'd do something like Duskblade 3/Warblade 5/Arcane Duelist 2/Legacy Champion 10/

A few spells and Arcane Channeling, a few maneuvers, 16 BAB, a magic weapon and all the goodies of the Arcane Duelist.

Oh, that's clever. I never thought to use Legacy Champ for something other than cheese! :smallbiggrin:

<3 <3 <3 I just realized something awesome. "Favored weapon? Oh, that's this legendary rapier I have. It doesn't have all of the properties I want, but I can fill in..."

I'd replace the duskblade level with an eternal blade level. I'm like that. :smalltongue:

[Nihilarian]

Oh, that's clever. I never thought to use Legacy Champ for something other than cheese! :smallbiggrin:

<3 <3 <3 I just realized something awesome. "Favored weapon? Oh, that's this legendary rapier I have. It doesn't have all of the properties I want, but I can fill in..."

I'd replace the duskblade level with an eternal blade level. I'm like that. :smalltongue:As long as you're aware Legacy Champion requires level 10 while Eternal Blade requires BAB +10. So if you try to fit both onto the build, you'll end up without the Flurry of Swords.

I'm glad you like the build, though. You can switch the first 8 levels to anything with full BAB and 1st level spells. So Duskblade or Hexblade are almost a necessity.

On another note, 7 levels of Cleric, the Arcane Disciple feat or 4 levels of Divine Crusader could get you Divine Power, after which you don't care about BAB, negating the need for Legacy Champion.