Hel Art Choice

[BenjCano]

The Giant is usually attentive to detail of mythological beings; the appearance of Thor is drawn straight from the Eddas with the burly bearded barbarian thing going for him, Loki is red-headed, Odin one eyed, etc. But I'm wondering why Hel appears the way she does.

In the Prose Edda, Hel is described as "half black and half flesh-colored," as well as being one of the jotun (giants). The Giant got the size right, given the dwarves in the foreground of Durkon's vision providing context to appreciate her size, but why not the half living, half dead appearance described in the source literature?

[skim172]

I'm going to guess because Thor, Odin, and Loki are well-known in fantasy, that even if the Giant wasn't directly sourcing the Prose Edda, he'd still get those characteristic traits mostly right.

Whereas Hel isn't quite so widely represented as to have become iconic.

[Keltest]

Without having seen the giant at work, my first guess is that a half dead Hel would be incredibly annoying to draw in some angles.

[Zmeoaice]

Thor has Red Hair in Norse Mythology, in OoTS he's blonde like the Marvel character.

Loki has red hair probably because he's a chaotic fire god, and Odin's eye patch is recognizable.

These figures have similar or the same names, but, they're not entirely based off the mythological figures. Tiamat is a water goddess, not a five headed dragon.

Hel's large appearance seems to be because she's divine, not because she's a Giant, as we see when Thor tries to defend the village form Surtur (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html). The gods can probably change size at will anyhow. Although having half her body be dead would have been cool, maybe the Giant though the woman in white works better aesthetically.

[CaDzilla]

She gave HPoH regenerate, she can probably fix her face up.
Does anybody else think that she gives off a Tomoko vibe?

[BenjCano]

Thor has Red Hair in Norse Mythology, in OoTS he's blonde like the Marvel character.

Nitpick, in the Prose Edda, the prologue simply states about Thor, “Hár hans er fegra en gull” (“His hair is fairer than gold”).

[Rogar Demonblud]

Depending on which myth you go with, Hel is either split vertically or horizontally for the half-alive, half-dead look. So, I'd guess Rich is going with the 'alive from the waist up' version for artistic convenience.

[The Giant]

The Giant is usually attentive to detail of mythological beings; the appearance of Thor is drawn straight from the Eddas with the burly bearded barbarian thing going for him, Loki is red-headed, Odin one eyed, etc. But I'm wondering why Hel appears the way she does.

In the Prose Edda, Hel is described as "half black and half flesh-colored," as well as being one of the jotun (giants). The Giant got the size right, given the dwarves in the foreground of Durkon's vision providing context to appreciate her size, but why not the half living, half dead appearance described in the source literature?

Because I don't care at all about mythological accuracy. I drew her the way I wanted her to look.

[CaDzilla]

Because I don't care at all about mythological accuracy. I drew her the way I wanted her to look.

Why did you go for this choice in particular? She kind of looks like Tomoko from Watamote.

[Edric O]

Why did you go for this choice in particular? She kind of looks like Tomoko from Watamote.
Sometimes a stick figure is just a stick figure. I highly doubt the Giant's drawing of Hel was motivated or inspired by anything more complicated than "hmmm, let's see, stick figure goddess of death and disease... *thinks for a bit*... got it."

[The Giant]

Why did you go for this choice in particular? She kind of looks like Tomoko from Watamote.

I have no idea what those words mean. I decided I wanted to include a death goddess, so I drew a death goddess. That's all there is to it. Don't overthink it.

[CaDzilla]

I have no idea what those words mean. I decided I wanted to include a death goddess, so I drew a death goddess. That's all there is to it. Don't overthink it.

Forgive my weabooness:smallfrown:, Hel looks like a reclusive, teenage girl. Everything about her appearance to the HPoH (official name?) makes her seem cutesy. Her guards wear mittens, her dwarves are wearing well made clothing and cutely carrying a glass of some red liquid (bloodwart tea?), Garm is sleeping like a puppy, and she's lounging on a regular armchair. She also has long, unkempt hair and bags under her eyes like Tomoko (http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/33300000/Tomoko-Manga-Quote-its-not-my-fault-that-im-not-popular-33346179-632-377.png) does. She just gives me that vibe

[Keltest]

Forgive my weabooness:smallfrown:, Hel looks like a reclusive, teenage girl. Everything about her appearance to the HPoH (official name?) makes her seem cutesy. Her guards wear mittens, her dwarves are wearing well made clothing and cutely carrying a glass of some red liquid (bloodwart tea?), Garm is sleeping like a puppy, and she's lounging on a regular armchair. She also has long, unkempt hair and bags under her eyes like Tomoko (http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/33300000/Tomoko-Manga-Quote-its-not-my-fault-that-im-not-popular-33346179-632-377.png) does. She just gives me that vibe

dude, teenagers are freaky. Especially the reclusive ones. I can think of no mortal force more terrifying.

[CaDzilla]

dude, teenagers are freaky. Especially the reclusive ones. I can think of no mortal force more terrifying.

Reclusive teenagers are pretty harmless unless they get a gun or something. That's pretty much what has happened to Hel

[The Giant]

Forgive my weabooness:smallfrown:, Hel looks like a reclusive, teenage girl. Everything about her appearance to the HPoH (official name?) makes her seem cutesy. Her guards wear mittens, her dwarves are wearing well made clothing and cutely carrying a glass of some red liquid (bloodwart tea?), Garm is sleeping like a puppy, and she's lounging on a regular armchair. She also has long, unkempt hair and bags under her eyes like Tomoko (http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/33300000/Tomoko-Manga-Quote-its-not-my-fault-that-im-not-popular-33346179-632-377.png) does. She just gives me that vibe

Well, I can't help how you see it, but absolutely nothing in that pictures is intended to be interpreted that way. I tried to draw a gaunt, possibly emaciated woman with grey hair, sitting on a throne, where her enslaved dwarven souls struggled under the weight of a giant metal goblet filled with blood when she could easily have her nearby giants carry it (or even just put it on the floor). There's not really supposed to be anything cute about it. I suppose it's just a limitation of my art style.

[SavageWombat]

There's not really supposed to be anything cute about it. I suppose it's just a limitation of my art style.

When you draw hellhounds and they come out cute, frankly ANYTHING you draw might come out cute. I kind of like it.

[Taelas]

I for one didn't find anything cute about it (especially not the poor souls forced to carry her goblet). Just, as you said, a fairly gaunt woman with grey hair.

I think CaDzilla is projecting a fair bit.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I think the issue here is that both Hel and Tomoko are drawn to look like still-mostly-flesh-colored female zombies.

Weekly manga and stick figures both being minimalist art styles, any interpretation of that idea is going to bear a passing resemblance.

Also I am headcanoning that this is the "horizontally divided" interpretation of Hel. I pray to whatever Aesir remain after today that we never see the dead parts.

[Zmeoaice]

Her guards wear mittens

I think the guards are wearing gauntlets, but now that you mentioned it, they do look like mittens.

I do feel bad for the dwarves. Hel is a douche.

[Dissection]

In the Prose Edda, Hel is described as "half black and half flesh-colored," as well as being one of the jotun (giants). The Giant got the size right

I just wanted to mention that the giants in Norse mythology weren't necessarily large in size, and are only called "giants" because of a mistranslation of the Norse word for "devourers" into English.

[CaDzilla]

Well, I can't help how you see it, but absolutely nothing in that pictures is intended to be interpreted that way. I tried to draw a gaunt, possibly emaciated woman with grey hair, sitting on a throne, where her enslaved dwarven souls struggled under the weight of a giant metal goblet filled with blood when she could easily have her nearby giants carry it (or even just put it on the floor). There's not really supposed to be anything cute about it. I suppose it's just a limitation of my art style.

Now she just reminds me more of Tomoko. Also the back dwarf (Kaboom?) doesn't seem to mind carrying it. When reading this scene, I thought that the front dwarf was sad because he died dishonored and that the back was neutral evil and couldn't complain about the fairness. That dwarf coaster and her armchair seemed to me like just something she had to impress her high priest. The interaction between them comes off to me as a person trying to convince their young cousin that they're cool.

[Taelas]

I just wanted to mention that the giants in Norse mythology weren't necessarily large in size, and are only called "giants" because of a mistranslation of the Norse word for "devourers" into English.

Jotun are more of a different social class than a separate species anyway, at least when compared with the Aesir.

[Vinyadan]

The Giant is usually attentive to detail of mythological beings; the appearance of Thor is drawn straight from the Eddas with the burly bearded barbarian thing going for him, Loki is red-headed, Odin one eyed, etc. But I'm wondering why Hel appears the way she does.

In the Prose Edda, Hel is described as "half black and half flesh-colored," as well as being one of the jotun (giants). The Giant got the size right, given the dwarves in the foreground of Durkon's vision providing context to appreciate her size, but why not the half living, half dead appearance described in the source literature?

If I may nitpick, Vikings didn't have horns on their helms. I didn't read the Edda, but I doubt their gods used them. (now I wish for someone who comes up and says that I'm wrong, because little details like that are cool in showing how peoples elevated gods from the human standard, and how they evaluated that standard). The Giant simply building a character in a way which we can relate to without having excessive requisites is the best answer.

I agree on the fact that everything the Giant paints may look cute out of context, but e.g. Durkon struggling inside the vampire really didn't. Or Roy wanting to kill Belkar. I find it great how a compelling story changes my perception of the images.

[The Giant]

Now she just reminds me more of Tomoko. Also the back dwarf (Kaboom?) doesn't seem to mind carrying it. When reading this scene, I thought that the front dwarf was sad because he died dishonored and that the back was neutral evil and couldn't complain about the fairness. That dwarf coaster and her armchair seemed to me like just something she had to impress her high priest. The interaction between them comes off to me as a person trying to convince their young cousin that they're cool.

In that case, I agree with Szar_Lakol—you're projecting a fair bit onto the art that really isn't there.

[Zmeoaice]

Also the back dwarf (Kaboom?) doesn't seem to mind carrying it.

Yeah, I'm guessing that's because the plate is covering his face do we don't know whether he's happy or not. I'm pretty sure he's not.

[jere7my]

Now she just reminds me more of Tomoko.

Yeah, I Googled this Tomoko person and I don't see the resemblance at all. Haggard gray-haired giantess in tattered white burial gown versus cute emo schoolgirl. Tomoko looks more like Raven from Teen Titans or a hundred other emo/goth "mopey but cute" characters.

I agree that the wolf is cute, though.

[CaDzilla]

In that case, I agree with Szar_Lakol—you're projecting a fair bit onto the art that really isn't there.

Fair enough. I just feel that Hel is sort of pathetic. She has only one worshipper (unless there are some cults to her that we, the audience, don't know about). She's also been shown to use most of her time arguing with her uncle over who gets what dwarf and getting screwed over due to the tree loophole that he uses. She had nothing better to do than to play with dwarves before she got her High Priest (what is his name?).

[Taelas]

Fair enough. I just feel that Hel is sort of pathetic. She has only one worshipper (unless there are some cults to her that we, the audience, don't know about). She's also been shown to use most of her time arguing with her uncle over who gets what dwarf and getting screwed over due to the tree loophole that he uses. She had nothing better to do than to play with dwarves before she got her High Priest (what is his name?).

You don't know how many worshipers she has in her own realm, either -- those giants, for example.

As for what she spends her time doing, she's a death goddess -- the keeper of the dishonored dead. It likely involves more than simply arguing with Thor. The fact that this is what we've seen her doing does not indicate that it's ALL she's doing.

Or do you think the 12 Gods spend their time arguing about ninjas, blocking off Northern gods from their worshipers, and causing Paladins to fall?

[jere7my]

Fair enough. I just feel that Hel is sort of pathetic. She has only one worshipper (unless there are some cults to her that we, the audience, don't know about). She's also been shown to use most of her time arguing with her uncle over who gets what dwarf and getting screwed over due to the tree loophole that he uses.

Prior to the current comic, Hel was recurring comic relief. We've had one panel of her as an ominous major player; her role going forward will presumably be more significant and serious.


She had nothing better to do than to play with dwarves before she got her High Priest (what is his name?).

He's known as Durkula.

[CaDzilla]

He's known as Durkula.

But that's a horrible name.:smallfrown:

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, I can't help how you see it, but absolutely nothing in that pictures is intended to be interpreted that way. I tried to draw a gaunt, possibly emaciated woman with grey hair, sitting on a throne, where her enslaved dwarven souls struggled under the weight of a giant metal goblet filled with blood when she could easily have her nearby giants carry it (or even just put it on the floor). There's not really supposed to be anything cute about it. I suppose it's just a limitation of my art style.
Emaciated? Without outlined cheekbones (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html)? I'm shocked, shocked at the lack of art consistency in this comic! :smallamused:

[Zmeoaice]

Emaciated? Without outlined cheekbones (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html)? I'm shocked, shocked at the lack of art consistency in this comic! :smallamused:

Hair might be covering it.


Fair enough. I just feel that Hel is sort of pathetic. She has only one worshipper (unless there are some cults to her that we, the audience, don't know about). She's also been shown to use most of her time arguing with her uncle over who gets what dwarf and getting screwed over due to the tree loophole that he uses.

Well, given that Hel seems to be a pretty awful place to spend eternity, since it's drab and she appears to treat the residents like slaves, I can't feel any sympathy for her when souls are sent their rightful afterlife.


But that's a horrible name.:smallfrown:

No, it's an awesome name! :smallmad:

[Warren Dew]

Yeah, I Googled this Tomoko person and I don't see the resemblance at all.
I did. For example, they both have round heads and they both have disproportionately thin limbs. Of course, both of these can be explained by similarities between the stick figure style and the anime style.

The only similarity I can see that isn't innate to the drawing style is their somewhat similar hair styles. Of course, the hair colors are different, implying youth in the Tomoko person and age in Hel, so that's as much a point of difference as of similarity.

[oppyu]

Don't worry Giant, I found her regal and horrifying.

[Tanngrisnir]

If I may nitpick, Vikings didn't have horns on their helms. I didn't read the Edda, but I doubt their gods used them. (now I wish for someone who comes up and says that I'm wrong, because little details like that are cool in showing how peoples elevated gods from the human standard, and how they evaluated that standard) . . .

As far as we know the Norse did not wear horned helms, but old Norse coins and medallions have been found depicting Odin wearing a horned helm. Most historians agree that this is where the common notion of the Norse wearing horned helms came from, since no authentic horned helm has actually been discovered.

Side-note, the Norse were not called really called Vikings. That's actually a Norse word that means exploring/raiding, so when you went exploring/raiding, you went viking. They are mostly referred to as Vikings because that's how they were most commonly encountered by other nations.

Just some info I find interesting, thought you might as well.

[Chantelune]

I have no idea what those words mean. I decided I wanted to include a death goddess, so I drew a death goddess. That's all there is to it. Don't overthink it.

:belkar: "But overthinking is the only thing this forum is good at..."

/flee! :smallbiggrin:

[The Pilgrim]

I think Hel looks fine as a death goddess. I specially like that the Giant did not resort to clichés like giving her monstruous traits (or drawing her as a hot goth girl). The monster lies within, evil is told by her actions, not by her looks.

[SoC175]

Fair enough. I just feel that Hel is sort of pathetic. She has only one worshipperHow do you get to that conclusion?

[Chantelune]

How do you get to that conclusion?

That she has only one worshiper ? During his first conversation with Malack, Durkon mentioned that Dwarves did have a goddess of death, Hel, but that as she manages the dwarves who didn't die bravely and of sickness, no dwarf would worship her or act as her cleric.

Sure, Durkon might not be aware of some hidden cult, but from what we learned in universe, it does seem that Hel have only one known worshipper so far.

Though, I don't feel like she's pathethic myself. She has quite a difficult portfolio for a pantheon that seems to mostly concern dwarves who are depicted as being extremely loyal and put duty above all else so far.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

How do you get to that conclusion?

Durkon claimed that no one worships Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), and now that she has a new priest worshipping her, her total number of worshippers had moved up to one.

Of course, it's possible that Durkon was unaware of some of Hel's worshippers, as I imagine he wouldn't interact with that sort of crowd very much. He probably assumed that no one would want to worship Hel, given what she represents.

[Rakoa]

Durkon claimed that no one worships Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), and now that she has a new priest worshipping her, her total number of worshippers had moved up to one.

Of course, it's possible that Durkon was unaware of some of Hel's worshippers, as I imagine he wouldn't interact with that sort of crowd very much. He probably assumed that no one would want to worship Hel, given what she represents.

It was also pretty clear that Durkon lacked much in the way of Knowledge (Religion), not even recognizing the name Loki from what I recall. So I wouldn't expect him to know the follower count of Hel.

[137beth]

I'd just like to point out--in the source mythology, Hel wasn't necessarily Evil, and the location of Hel probably wasn't a realm of torture (that came later, after much of northern Europe was converted to Christianity).

Any notion that OOTS-Hel is closely aligned with the mythological Hel should have been dispelled by the clear implication of OOTS-Hel's evilness.

[BenjCano]

I'd just like to point out--in the source mythology, Hel wasn't necessarily Evil, and the location of Hel probably wasn't a realm of torture (that came later, after much of northern Europe was converted to Christianity).

Any notion that OOTS-Hel is closely aligned with the mythological Hel should have been dispelled by the clear implication of OOTS-Hel's evilness.

That's not entirely accurate. The Norns gave several prophecies to the Aesir that the children of Loki and Angraboda would bring terrible disaster, and nothing but evil would come from them. Those children are, of course, the wolf Fenris, the world serpent Iormungard, and Hel. The Aesir take steps to confine those three, imprisoning Hel in Niflheim.

At Ragnarok, Hel will call forth the dead that were not chosen by the Valkyries to assault Asgard.

The Prose Eddas described the nine-ringed realm of Hel as a place where the inhabitants kept up a constant wail. It described her palace as a miserable place known as Damp with Sleet, where the walls had been built with human bones and worms. They also claimed that Hel ate with a knife called Famine from a plate known as Hunger. Her bed was known as Sickbed, and the stone at the entrance to her hall was referred to as Drop to Destruction.

I'm not sure how you infer from that that Hel isn't necessarily evil in the source material.

[littlebum2002]

Durkon claimed that no one worships Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), and now that she has a new priest worshipping her, her total number of worshippers had moved up to one.


Now Durkula can recruit followers by claiming he belongs to the "fastest growing religion"

[Aldrakan]

There's also Durkon immediately being declared high priest, which implies she didn't have one already. It's possible she simply demoted the last one due to Durkon's power, but more likely she simply had no clergy previously. So it seems plausible that she had no previous followers at all.

[Mando Knight]

But that's a horrible name.:smallfrown:

Well, there's another vampiric name tradition that we could go with, but Durkula swept through the forums a lot faster than Nokrud. :smalltongue:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I call him by the title Hel gave him: The High Priest of Hel.

[The Pilgrim]

I'm not sure how you infer from that that Hel isn't necessarily evil in the source material.

Neutrality suits her better.

[Vinyadan]

As far as we know the Norse did not wear horned helms, but old Norse coins and medallions have been found depicting Odin wearing a horned helm. Most historians agree that this is where the common notion of the Norse wearing horned helms came from, since no authentic horned helm has actually been discovered.

Side-note, the Norse were not called really called Vikings. That's actually a Norse word that means exploring/raiding, so when you went exploring/raiding, you went viking. They are mostly referred to as Vikings because that's how they were most commonly encountered by other nations.

Just some info I find interesting, thought you might as well.

I do, thank you! :smallsmile:


Well, there's another vampiric name tradition that we could go with, but Durkula swept through the forums a lot faster than Nokrud. :smalltongue:

Norkulatu! :smallcool:

[Nerd-o-rama]

Durkon claimed that no one worships Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html), and now that she has a new priest worshipping her, her total number of worshippers had moved up to one.

Of course, it's possible that Durkon was unaware of some of Hel's worshippers, as I imagine he wouldn't interact with that sort of crowd very much. He probably assumed that no one would want to worship Hel, given what she represents.

Durkon claims no Dwarves worship Hel. The Northern Gods are still the Northern Gods, which includes all humanoids living north of the Somewhere/Nowhere/Someplace Else region and without their own cultural gods, as far as I can tell.

I imagine she's big with giants the same way Thor's big with dwarves.

[SiuiS]

The Giant is usually attentive to detail of mythological beings; the appearance of Thor is drawn straight from the Eddas with the burly bearded barbarian thing going for him, Loki is red-headed, Odin one eyed, etc. But I'm wondering why Hel appears the way she does.

In the Prose Edda, Hel is described as "half black and half flesh-colored," as well as being one of the jotun (giants). The Giant got the size right, given the dwarves in the foreground of Durkon's vision providing context to appreciate her size, but why not the half living, half dead appearance described in the source literature?

Hel's lower half is dead and rotting, not her left or right half.

Problem solved.

[Vinyadan]

Hel's lower half is dead and rotting, not her left or right half.

Problem solved.

Or maybe it's the rear side, and we can only see the front.

[Zmeoaice]

Durkon claims no Dwarves worship Hel. The Northern Gods are still the Northern Gods, which includes all humanoids living north of the Somewhere/Nowhere/Someplace Else region and without their own cultural gods, as far as I can tell.

I imagine she's big with giants the same way Thor's big with dwarves.


http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Malack.png: Does not your own pantheon have a goddes of Death? Hel, I think?

:durkon: : Well, sorta, but nobody worships 'er, much less serves 'er as priest!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html

[Porthos]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Malack.png: Does not your own pantheon have a goddes of Death? Hel, I think?

:durkon: : Well, sorta, but nobody worships 'er, much less serves 'er as priest!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html

As has been commented on in this thread, I'm not sure we should take the fellow with a possibly sub-par Knowledge: Religion score (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0052.html) as an unimpeachable source on the subject. :smallwink:

--

If we want an in-comic objection to this, it seems to me that Rich has been lacing Planescape flavoring throughout the comic. You have to look for it, but I think it's there. Well, one of the precepts of Planescape is that if a god has no worshippers, Bad Things Happen To Them.

Now I suppose the overall fear of Hel might sustain her enough. But if given the choice between hearing Hel had no-one worshiping her at all and Durkon being ignorant of them (not to mention slightly bigoted), I lean toward the latter.

As for why Vamped!Durkon shot to the top of the charts? Might be as simple as not having a lvl 14 cleric in her ranks. And so she promoted him on the spot with that social rank.

More than prepared to be wrong on this. But that's where I'm leaning at the moment.

[Blisstake]

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Malack.png: Does not your own pantheon have a goddes of Death? Hel, I think?

:durkon: : Well, sorta, but nobody worships 'er, much less serves 'er as priest!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html

He's answering Malak about Dwarven religion though, so it's implied he's only talking about dwarves. The sentence should be read as "Well, sorta, but nobody [in dwarven society] worships 'er..."

Although it could be the case that no one else worships her... I just wouldn't say that sentence (especially from someone apparently lacking in ranks of knowledge: religion) proves it one way or the other.

[Keltest]

He's answering Malak about Dwarven religion though, so it's implied he's only talking about dwarves. The sentence should be read as "Well, sorta, but nobody [in dwarven society] worships 'er..."

Although it could be the case that no one else worships her... I just wouldn't say that sentence (especially from someone apparently lacking in ranks of knowledge: religion) proves it one way or the other.

Had that been his point, he could (and given his general view of humans, probably would) say that "only humans worship her".

[Vladier]

If we want an in-comic objection to this, it seems to me that Rich has been lacing Planescape flavoring throughout the comic. You have to look for it, but I think it's there. Well, one of the precepts of Planescape is that if a god has no worshippers, Bad Things Happen To Them.


Well, as Elan pointed out (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html), the gods of one pantheon sort of share their worshipers, so the temple of Freya, for example, also gives sustenance to every other Northern god, though, I assume, it's less than if they were worshipped specifically.

If you believe and worship Freya, or Thor, or Loki, or Odin you also have to believe in existence of Hel and her divine role in the pantheon as she is an inseparable part of at least Thor's dogma and mythology (and probably those of Loki, considering that she's supposed to be his daughter and all) and thus her existence (and ability to act on her own and not be dead on Astral plane) is necessary for them to persist.

[Psyren]

Hel's lower half is dead and rotting, not her left or right half.

Problem solved.

Urgy! (http://alharadnd.wdfiles.com/local--files/urgathoa/PZO9202-Urgathoa.jpg)


Had that been his point, he could (and given his general view of humans, probably would) say that "only humans worship her".

Given his poor Knowledge: Religion, it's entirely possible that all he knows is that dwarves don't worship her, and that he has no idea who actually does.

Based on her throne scene, my guess is that some giants at least worship her, which would fit both their savage nature and enmity with dwarves.

[Keltest]

Urgy! (http://alharadnd.wdfiles.com/local--files/urgathoa/PZO9202-Urgathoa.jpg)



Given his poor Knowledge: Religion, it's entirely possible that all he knows is that dwarves don't worship her, and that he has no idea who actually does.

Based on her throne scene, my guess is that some giants at least worship her, which would fit both their savage nature and enmity with dwarves.

but would he state it as fact though?

[Psyren]

but would he state it as fact though?

Sure he would - if you don't know of anyone who worships X, you would understandably say "nobody worships X."

It's not the only possible way you could phrase it, but that specific phrasing isn't wrong.

[Keltest]

Sure he would - if you don't know of anyone who worships X, you would understandably say "nobody worships X."

It's not the only possible way you could phrase it, but that specific phrasing isn't wrong.

except it actually is wrong. An incorrect statement spoken from ignorance is still incorrect.

[orrion]

He's answering Malak about Dwarven religion though, so it's implied he's only talking about dwarves. The sentence should be read as "Well, sorta, but nobody [in dwarven society] worships 'er..."

Although it could be the case that no one else worships her... I just wouldn't say that sentence (especially from someone apparently lacking in ranks of knowledge: religion) proves it one way or the other.

Well, since the vampire is the High Priest of Hel and he just came into existence, it stands to reason he's the only Priest of Hel.

[zimmerwald1915]

Durkon claims no Dwarves worship Hel. The Northern Gods are still the Northern Gods, which includes all humanoids living north of the Somewhere/Nowhere/Someplace Else region and without their own cultural gods, as far as I can tell.
According to Hank (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0620.html), Greysky City is considered "in the North." According to the map of Haley's, Belkar's, and Crystal's adventure in Don't Split the Party, Greysky City is located on the southern end of the eastern coast of the isthmus connecting the Northern Continent to the Southern Continent. It is probably in the northern foothills of the Southern Mountains, judging by the bluish soil and the rough terrain. To me this suggests that the boundary between the Northern and Southern continents is defined to a great degree by the water divide of the Southern Mountains. This conclusion is buttressed by the Giant's discussion of creating believable geography (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/xO3dVM8EDKJPlKxmVoG.html), where he uses "peak lines" to define continent boundaries.

[Mauve Shirt]

except it actually is wrong. An incorrect statement spoken from ignorance is still incorrect.

And yet I totally can believe that Durkon would make one. Especially if he rolled knowledge (Religion) for it. As Haley's lies in the prison reveal to us, sense doesn't really matter in OOTSworld as long as you roll right.

[Keltest]

And yet I totally can believe that Durkon would make one. Especially if he rolled knowledge (Religion) for it. As Haley's lies in the prison reveal to us, sense doesn't really matter in OOTSworld as long as you roll right.

It stretches my credulity to believe that Durkon would deliberately spread information if he has no idea whether or not its correct.

[Nerd-o-rama]

According to Hank (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0620.html), Greysky City is considered "in the North." According to the map of Haley's, Belkar's, and Crystal's adventure in Don't Split the Party, Greysky City is located on the southern end of the eastern coast of the isthmus connecting the Northern Continent to the Southern Continent. It is probably in the northern foothills of the Southern Mountains, judging by the bluish soil and the rough terrain. To me this suggests that the boundary between the Northern and Southern continents is defined to a great degree by the water divide of the Southern Mountains. This conclusion is buttressed by the Giant's discussion of creating believable geography (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/xO3dVM8EDKJPlKxmVoG.html), where he uses "peak lines" to define continent boundaries.

I guess I could have mentioned that if I'd ever managed to scrape together the money for Don't Split the Party.


It stretches my credulity to believe that Durkon would deliberately spread information if he has no idea whether or not its correct.

But does it strain your credulity to believe he could simply be incorrect?

And anyway, I still think from context that that whole conversation was about dwarves, particularly, while in the general case anyone in the North is under the purview of the Northern Gods as a pantheon, barring corner cases like Northerners fighting a war in the South that require divine haggling.

[Keltest]

But does it strain your credulity to believe he could simply be incorrect?

And anyway, I still think from context that that whole conversation was about dwarves, particularly, while in the general case anyone in the North is under the purview of the Northern Gods as a pantheon, barring corner cases like Northerners fighting a war in the South that require divine haggling.

No it does not, but Durkon is aware of his lack of Knowledge (religion). So its up to you to provide in-comic or word-of-giant evidence that he was incorrect.

Likewise, im inclined to believe that had Durkon meant "No Dwarves" when he said no one, he would have said "No Dwarves"

[Porthos]

No it does not, but Durkon is aware of his lack of Knowledge (religion). So its up to you to provide in-comic or word-of-giant evidence that he was incorrect.

Likewise, im inclined to believe that had Durkon meant "No Dwarves" when he said no one, he would have said "No Dwarves"

For Durkon to be wrong, he simply needs to be unaware of some cult hiding in the wilderness somewhere.

For Durkon to know he is right, he needs to know who every Northerner worships, either openly or secretly.

Or have asked Hel herself and presume she isn't spreading misinformation somewhere. :smallwink:

===

See, I can believe that Durkon thinks what he says is true. I have a bit harder of a time believing that he is in a position to know it is true, even if in fact it is true.

It's kinda like Belkar and Vamped!Durkon. Belkar ended up being right about about Durkon. But he wasn't in a position to know he was right.

Finally, as for 'proof' neither of us have it. So asking for it isn't going to do any of us any good.

'sides demanding 'proof' about things would cut out about 85% of all discussions on this forum. And who wants that to happen? :smalltongue:

[BenjCano]

There's also Durkon immediately being declared high priest, which implies she didn't have one already. It's possible she simply demoted the last one due to Durkon's power, but more likely she simply had no clergy previously. So it seems plausible that she had no previous followers at all.

It's also possible that the evil spirit inside Durkon is Hel's all time favorite high priest.

[Psyren]

except it actually is wrong. An incorrect statement spoken from ignorance is still incorrect.

But the question is not "is it accurate" - the question is "do you believe it is accurate." The latter is what determines how you will say it.

[Keltest]

But the question is not "is it accurate" - the question is "do you believe it is accurate." The latter is what determines how you will say it.

Aye, and durkon is aware of his lack of Knowledge (religion) so he would not make a statement like that if he was not confidant of its accuracy. If that confidence is misplaced, it again falls on you to back that up with evidence from the comic.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Aye, and durkon is aware of his lack of Knowledge (religion) so he would not make a statement like that if he was not confidant of its accuracy. If that confidence is misplaced, it again falls on you to back that up with evidence from the comic.

It is quite easy for someone to be confidant of their accuracy and still be entirely wrong. Perhaps, as a result of his low skill in Knowledge (religion), he was convinced that Hel had no followers, and was unaware that that was not true.

[Keltest]

It is quite easy for someone to be confidant of their accuracy and still be entirely wrong. Perhaps, as a result of his low skill in Knowledge (religion), he was convinced that Hel had no followers, and was unaware that that was not true.

that... completely ignored my point. :smallannoyed: Durkon is aware of his lack of knowledge. he would not be confidant. That's my whole point.

[ufo]

I always took it as a figure of speech. In a world like this, I'm pretty sure it's quite extraordinary for any god to not have a single worshipper.

So I took "nobody" as meaning "not a significant amount". In a conversation between two socially savvy people, you wouldn't casually mention that this god does not have even a single worshipper - it'd probably be elaborated upon, if it was the intended meaning, methinks.

[Kish]

I call him by the title Hel gave him: The High Priest of Hel.
Me too. From the way he refers to Durkon, he likely has another name, but he hasn't revealed it, and it's real unlikely to be a certain fan-name.

I always took it as a figure of speech. In a world like this, I'm pretty sure it's quite extraordinary for any god to not have a single worshipper.

So I took "nobody" as meaning "not a significant amount". In a conversation between two socially savvy people, you wouldn't casually mention that this god does not have even a single worshipper - it'd probably be elaborated upon, if it was the intended meaning, methinks.
He did elaborate on it. Until the last strip, I was leaning (pretty strongly) toward "everything Durkon said applied only to dwarves," but now, having heard her say the dwarves fall under her purview and seeing that her throne room has dwarven slaves, fanged giant guards, a massive wolf, but no humans to be seen, I'd say Durkon's description was accurate and everyone but Hel in Hel's domain was either directly created by her or dragged there kicking and screaming.

Can't prove it either way without either more indications or Word of the Author, of course.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

that... completely ignored my point. :smallannoyed: Durkon is aware of his lack of knowledge. he would not be confidant. That's my whole point.

If he is aware of his lack of knowledge, why is he talking about religion at all? He knows that he has a terrible rank, so why would he have a conversation about religion?

The only way for him to be certain was if he knew every single person in the Northern lands and who they worshipped. I find it easier to imagine that he was making a generalization or an inference than that.

[zimmerwald1915]

The only way for him to be certain was if he knew every single person in the Northern lands and who they worshipped. I find it easier to imagine that he was making a generalization or an inference than that.
That or he was repeating a piece of information he'd been told at temple at some point and accepted unquestioningly.

[Porthos]

that... completely ignored my point. :smallannoyed: Durkon is aware of his lack of knowledge. he would not be confidant. That's my whole point.

You might not be confident in repeating something you knew you had lack of knowledge in. We don't know if Durkon is or not.

And, again, what's with this demanding of 'proof' from the comic or the author? Not really going to much discussion or speculation if we are held to that standard. :smalltongue:

[orrion]

If he is aware of his lack of knowledge, why is he talking about religion at all? He knows that he has a terrible rank, so why would he have a conversation about religion?

The only way for him to be certain was if he knew every single person in the Northern lands and who they worshipped. I find it easier to imagine that he was making a generalization or an inference than that.

Well, he IS a freaking Priest. It's safe to assume he'd have bare bones knowledge, and I'd guess that things that cover dwarfs specifically would fall under that.

Hel flat out tells us that dwarfs are under her purview - what possible reason would anyone NOT a dwarf have to worship her? It's not like they would go to her realm when they died, so saying that Hel has no outside worshipers is a pretty safe bet.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

And yet, he's not concerned when Hilgya uses the name Loki.

[Porthos]

Hel flat out tells us that dwarfs are under her purview - what possible reason would anyone NOT a dwarf have to worship her? It's not like they would go to her realm when they died, so saying that Hel has no outside worshipers is a pretty safe bet.

Because it's not an exclusionary statement? :smallconfused:

[SiuiS]

Because I don't care at all about mythological accuracy. I drew her the way I wanted her to look.

That too, that's a pretty good reason.


I just wanted to mention that the giants in Norse mythology weren't necessarily large in size, and are only called "giants" because of a mistranslation of the Norse word for "devourers" into English.

Oh really? Neat! Where could I look into this further?


There's also Durkon immediately being declared high priest, which implies she didn't have one already. It's possible she simply demoted the last one due to Durkon's power, but more likely she simply had no clergy previously. So it seems plausible that she had no previous followers at all.

That only really says that Durkon, the high level adventurer, who is on track to save the world, and is now a vampire, is the strongest and most worthy.

Plus he's not the pope. I doubt there is a singular high priest in general. But shrug.


Or maybe it's the rear side, and we can only see the front.

Possible, but an anterior posterior split would probably result in a less happy death goddess. Lose half corpse Hel could go without lower half fun times. But posterior half corpse Hel would probably be all frowny face, since she would be categorically unable to benefit from giant servitor a giving her back massages.


Urgy! (http://alharadnd.wdfiles.com/local--files/urgathoa/PZO9202-Urgathoa.jpg)

And saved!


Sure he would - if you don't know of anyone who worships X, you would understandably say "nobody worships X."

It's not the only possible way you could phrase it, but that specific phrasing isn't wrong.

Yep.

[AKA_Bait]

that... completely ignored my point. :smallannoyed: Durkon is aware of his lack of knowledge. he would not be confidant. That's my whole point.

Why not? He's confident about all sorts of things he probably is aware he has low ranks in. For example, I suspect his knowledge: nature score is pretty awful too. Yet, he has very firm beliefs on trees.

Also, consider the context of his statement about Hel. Durkon is having a casual conversation with Malack, during which Hel comes up only tangentially. I doubt he expected anyone to be relying on his statement for anything.


That or he was repeating a piece of information he'd been told at temple at some point and accepted unquestioningly.

Also very possible. Durkon believes what he is told by his dwarven elders, who, presumably are not going on and on about how many worshipers of Hel there are among outcast dwarves or, maybe, giants.


Me too. From the way he refers to Durkon, he likely has another name, but he hasn't revealed it, and it's real unlikely to be a certain fan-name.

I also agree. I've been shortening it to the HPH though. The High Priest of Hel is a lot to type. :smallbiggrin:

[orrion]

Because it's not an exclusionary statement? :smallconfused:

What isn't? You mean that because Hel says dwarfs are under her purview it doesn't mean that other beings aren't?

Remotely plausible, I suppose, but very questionable because if Hel already had worshipers to carry out her will then the High Priest wouldn't be the one initiating the plan. Oh, he'd certainly help with the plan, but her other minions would presumably already be trying.

Besides, the implication is that Hel wants Thor brought down because she isn't getting enough souls. The cutaways show that Thor bends the rules in every way possible to keep souls out of her realm. If she had influxes of souls from other avenues there wouldn't be as much reason to do what she's planning to do.

[Psyren]

that... completely ignored my point. :smallannoyed: Durkon is aware of his lack of knowledge. he would not be confidant. That's my whole point.

He's aware of his lack of knowledge in one specific instance (Hilgya rebuking fire creatures.) That doesn't mean he can't possibly be confident about his knowledge of Hel, however misplaced that confidence might ultimately be.


Why not? He's confident about all sorts of things he probably is aware he has low ranks in. For example, I suspect his knowledge: nature score is pretty awful too. Yet, he has very firm beliefs on trees.

Indeed sir.



And saved!


That's Urgathoa from Pathfinder - both she and Pharasma being based on different aspects of Hel (+ a handful of other death-focused deities.)

[Chantelune]

And yet, he's not concerned when Hilgya uses the name Loki.

Which was way back in the first 100th of strips, when the comic was still little more than a a party making jokes about D&D. And even so, Durkon's word at the time was "with more ranks", not "If I had put any rank", which imply that he have at least a few ranks in it. Not counting that he gained several level since then. He might have learned from that and put more ranks in knowledge : religion, so he would have basic knowledge of his own pantheon and avoid another occurence of such a situation where he fail to see the signs.

Sure, he didn't know Nergal, but the check for knowing other culture's deities might be way higher than knowing your own.

Can still mean that he doesn't know for a fact how many worshipper Hel have, but kind of void the "Durkon doesn't know his own religion" argument in my opinion. After all, when he talked with Malack, he did know of Hel, which might be a less well known goddes than Loki given how unpopular she is.

[Seto]

Well, since the vampire is the High Priest of Hel and he just came into existence, it stands to reason he's the only Priest of Hel.

Actually, he was "birthed in (her) hall", but we don't know when. We don't really know how vampires work. Either you're right (I'd be inclined to agree with you myself), or she had a preexisting malevolent spirit serving her as High Priest that she sent to Durkon when he was sired.

[Kish]

I think her phrasing's kind of odd if the entity she's speaking to has been her High Priest for a while. It would be like if Roy said, "And now, as Roy Greenhilt, I will destroy Xykon." Technically inaccurate? No. Implying that he was something other than Roy Greenhilt until recently? Yes.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Which was way back in the first 100th of strips, when the comic was still little more than a a party making jokes about D&D. And even so, Durkon's word at the time was "with more ranks", not "If I had put any rank", which imply that he have at least a few ranks in it. Not counting that he gained several level since then. He might have learned from that and put more ranks in knowledge : religion, so he would have basic knowledge of his own pantheon and avoid another occurence of such a situation where he fail to see the signs.

Sure, he didn't know Nergal, but the check for knowing other culture's deities might be way higher than knowing your own.

Can still mean that he doesn't know for a fact how many worshipper Hel have, but kind of void the "Durkon doesn't know his own religion" argument in my opinion. After all, when he talked with Malack, he did know of Hel, which might be a less well known goddes than Loki given how unpopular she is.

My original point is still unchanged. There are many ways for Durkon to be convinced that he is right when he is in fact not right. Even if he has more Knowledge (religion) ranks, he can still be wrong.

Plus, I was originally responding to a point which claimed that he had few ranks in Knowledge (religion), hence my response.

[Seto]

I think her phrasing's kind of odd if the entity she's speaking to has been her High Priest for a while. It would be like if Roy said, "And now, as Roy Greenhilt, I will destroy Xykon." Technically inaccurate? No. Implying that he was something other than Roy Greenhilt until recently? Yes.
Hmm... I see your point. But High Priest of Hel isn't a name, it's a function. More similar to Roy saying : "As leader of a group of high-enough-level PCs, I will destroy Xykon." Or Miko saying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html) : As the highest-ranking Paladin in the Sapphire Guard, I find you guilty of treason !" Or Haley saying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html) : "As official acting leader of the Order of the Stick, I hereby revoke your membership !"

This leaves us with 3 possibilities :
- The spirit was just created.
- It existed before as High Priest of Hel.
- It existed before, but has effectively just become High Priest of Hel by taking over someone with a lot of Cleric levels.

I'd go with "just created", that seems more logical for the process of becoming a vampire. But I'm not sure.

[Loreweaver15]

That only really says that Durkon, the high level adventurer, who is on track to save the world, and is now a vampire, is the strongest and most worthy.

Plus he's not the pope. I doubt there is a singular high priest in general. But shrug.

Considering that every time we've been told about a High Priest of Anything in-comic or within the prequel books they've been referred to as "The" High Priest of Whatever, I'd say there's one high priest per entity.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Also I am headcanoning that this is the "horizontally divided" interpretation of Hel. I pray to whatever Aesir remain after today that we never see the dead parts.
And I'm headcanoning that the side of Hel that's dead is the inside. :smallwink:

As for Hel's worshippers, she might not have any specific to her, but surely she'd get a general level of obsevervance, simply through those who didn't want to annoy her and thus spend eternity in torment. And Durkon would almost certainly know each gods rough ranking within the Northern pantheon - if a particular god's got a lot of worshippers, they'd be more powerful and thus higher up (Odin, Thor), and conversely for those with very few (Hel).


Besides, the implication is that Hel wants Thor brought down because she isn't getting enough souls. The cutaways show that Thor bends the rules in every way possible to keep souls out of her realm. If she had influxes of souls from other avenues there wouldn't be as much reason to do what she's planning to do.
Alternatively, the other deities play fair, and Hel takes the appropriate dead from them, but Thor exploits every loop hole. Or maybe all the Northern gods use the loop holes, and as Thor's probably only second to Odin in the Northern pantheon, she's setting out to bring him down so that all the others fall in line, but she can't go after Odin because of what he'd do to her when he found out.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Hmm... I see your point. But High Priest of Hel isn't a name, it's a function. More similar to Roy saying : "As leader of a group of high-enough-level PCs, I will destroy Xykon." Or Miko saying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html) : As the highest-ranking Paladin in the Sapphire Guard, I find you guilty of treason !" Or Haley saying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html) : "As official acting leader of the Order of the Stick, I hereby revoke your membership !"

This leaves us with 3 possibilities :
- The spirit was just created.
- It existed before as High Priest of Hel.
- It existed before, but has effectively just become High Priest of Hel by taking over someone with a lot of Cleric levels.

I'd go with "just created", that seems more logical for the process of becoming a vampire. But I'm not sure.

Actually the third one makes a lot of sense. "As your high priest" meaning "as your undead servitor with the highest number pf Cleric levels'

[Vinyadan]

I find the idea that the spirit possessing Durkon was ancient and lead the worship of Hel among the spirits in her reign before it was sent on to Durkon very cool and would gladly believe it.

At the same time, I think that he was standing still here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0907.html) because he was being informed by Hel of her plan through rapture. So I think he was a fresh new spirit, born in Hel's kingdom and subjugated to Malak, which later came back to the servitude of Hel. It also explains why she refers to it as serendipitous, which, if it served her earlier, wouldn't make much sense.

[orrion]

Alternatively, the other deities play fair, and Hel takes the appropriate dead from them, but Thor exploits every loop hole. Or maybe all the Northern gods use the loop holes, and as Thor's probably only second to Odin in the Northern pantheon, she's setting out to bring him down so that all the others fall in line, but she can't go after Odin because of what he'd do to her when he found out.

And why would Hel want to ruin the whole world if it was just Thor who exploited the loop holes and she was getting plenty of souls from other avenues?

[Psyren]

Hel's agent could have been (and likely was) implanted in Durkon from the very moment he was reanimated. The fact that Malack controlled him initially doesn't mean that the spirit didn't come from Hel. After all, Tsukiko created dozens of wights, but clearly they had no special allegiance to her beyond the spells that allowed her to do so.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

And why would Hel want to ruin the whole world if it was just Thor who exploited the loop holes and she was getting plenty of souls from other avenues?
It was just a suggestion, but maybe it's part of a power play, with Hel trying to usurp Odin as ruler of the Northern pantheon (trash the world and make everyone worship her out of fear and desperation), and Thor's been obnoxious enough to her to make himself Hel's primary target?

Or maybe there's stuff that Hel knows (or thinks she knows) about the rifts that others don't - including the Dark One.

[Amphiox]

Recall that Durkon's lack of ranks in Knowledge: Religion was such that he failed to recognize a cleric of Loki, supposedly his own god's primary rival within his own pantheon, and was not aware of Loki's dominion of creatures of fire (IIRC correctly that scene was one where Hilgya was asserting authority over fire monsters through her god).

So how reliable can we expect Durkon to be with respect to knowledge of the Northern Gods' pantheon, given this prior evidence?

We must also consider that most people, when in friendly conversation with friends, as Durkon was taking his conversation with Malack to be, are not necessarily going to be scientifically precise with their use of terminology. "No one" may easily overlap with "Almost no one", or "very few", "not to my personal knowledge", or "no one who is to me significant enough to count". Now granted this was a conversation about religion between two clerics, so they *may* be more precise than you or I talking about celebrities and saying stuff like "no one likes Justin Bieber", or "everyone has been shocked by Miley Cyrus", or "Duck Dynasty has no fans anymore" but still, we don't assume that "no one" and "everyone" in those situations applies to the entire world, and so we shouldn't assume that it must apply here either.

Hel can't have enough worshippers that her worship would be obvious among the Dwarves, and she can't have an active-enough priesthood for there to have been enough dealings directly with the Church of Thor and Odin for Durkon as a young cleric of Thor to have been aware of them. But she could certainly still have a *few* followers here and there among the Dwarves.


After all, Tsukiko created dozens of wights, but clearly they had no special allegiance to her beyond the spells that allowed her to do so.

Well, they had enough of an allegiance to her to apologize to her for being compelled to attack her by the magic of a more powerful divine caster. That to me actually suggests that there *was* a special allegiance and even some kind of emotional bond, but that it was too weak to override RC's magic.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, they had enough of an allegiance to her to apologize to her for being compelled to attack her by the magic of a more powerful divine caster. That to me actually suggests that there *was* a special allegiance and even some kind of emotional bond, but that it was too weak to override RC's magic.
Or Redcloak made them say the things they said to screw with Tsuki's head. But we're well into "choose what to believe" territory, at least until more evidence appears.

[Porthos]

What isn't? You mean that because Hel says dwarfs are under her purview it doesn't mean that other beings aren't?

Remotely plausible, I suppose, but very questionable because if Hel already had worshipers to carry out her will then the High Priest wouldn't be the one initiating the plan. Oh, he'd certainly help with the plan, but her other minions would presumably already be trying.

I think the Frost Giants in the background show that she accepts worshipers from people other than dwarves. That she doesn't have many of the really isn't my point. In this case, at least. :smallwink:

To expand a bit outward, we already know that the Northern Pantheon accepts non-Dwarven worshipers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html). Which, really, just makes sense.

It stands to reason that Hel wouldn't be particularly fussy about non-Dwarves worshiping her within the Northern Lands. In fact, all her statement really said is that the Northern Pantheon has special dominion over Dwarves, which seems to make sense from what we've already seen. But that doesn't remotely mean that they have no dominion elsewhere.

That she doesn't have many of them just shows she isn't very good at her job. :smalltongue:

[zimmerwald1915]

To expand a bit outward, we already know that the Northern Pantheon accepts non-Dwarven worshipers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0137.html). Which, really, just makes sense.
Actually, what seems more anomalous is that the Dwarves don't seem to have ascended any deities the way the Elves and the Goblins did. It makes me wonder why the Dwarves are so keen on the Northern pantheon.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Because they're generally as passive as Durkon, and so just take the gods they found around them. There also aren't any gnome, halfling or other monster gods.

[BenjCano]

Actually, what seems more anomalous is that the Dwarves don't seem to have ascended any deities the way the Elves and the Goblins did.

Neither have the halflings, the gnomes, orcs (unless you count Giggles), sylphs, giants, ogres, and all the other intelligent species that populate the D&D monster manual.

[Psyren]

Well, they had enough of an allegiance to her to apologize to her for being compelled to attack her by the magic of a more powerful divine caster. That to me actually suggests that there *was* a special allegiance and even some kind of emotional bond, but that it was too weak to override RC's magic.

That "sorry" was the kind of sorry you get from an error message on a computer :smalltongue: i.e. "We cannot process your request at this time."

They were pretty blasé about eating each other and burning themselves in the fireplace.

[CaDzilla]

You can't command undead to self-terminate.
Theory:
They probably didn't want RC to kill them himself, so they lied about it. We never saw or heard them killing themselves. They might hold a grudge against RC for making them kill their mother. Also what better way to lie to a guy who sees undead as tools than to convince him that they are under his control:smallwink:

[Domino Quartz]

You can't command undead to self-terminate.
Theory:
They probably didn't want RC to kill them himself, so they lied about it. We never saw or heard them killing themselves.

What do you think the sound in the first panel of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) was, then?

[CaDzilla]

What do you think the sound in the first panel of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html) was, then?

Tsukiko being eaten

[Keltest]

Tsukiko being eaten

Even if you cant order them to kill themselves, only one of them would survive. All the others were ordered to eat each other in reverse order of age.

[pendell]

WRT Hel and her lack of worshippers / priests, it may be because she is the same sort of being as the infernal deities in Greek religion. People curse by them but no one in their right minds would ever pray to them or worship them. They are not friendly to mortals.

The only fictional example I can think of right now comes from David Drake's Isles (http://www.amazon.com/The-Gods-Return-Crown-Isles/dp/0765351188) series. Essentially, there are three gods in the Pantheon: The Lady, The Shepherd, and the Sister.

The Lady and the Shepherd are your traditional merciful female and protective male deities whom people devote themselves to , beg for mercy from, all that good stuff.

The Sister is ... something else.

The Sister is pure malevolence and hatred, the dark to the Lady's light, the cruelty to her kindness, the iron hand of justice to the Lady's gentle mercy. In the books, no one who is not mad prays to the Sister, but she is a common feature of curses, as in "Sister take it" or "Sister take you" or "May the Sister take me if I lie".

David Drake tells us (http://david-drake.com/topic/05-isles-series/) that his version of the Sister is based on the Sumerian legend of Ereshkigal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ereshkigal), Queen of the Underworld, which is a direct analog to Hel. It appears that both Rich Burlew and David Drake are drawing on this common mythological theme for their storytelling.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[CaDzilla]

Even if you cant order them to kill themselves, only one of them would survive. All the others were ordered to eat each other in reverse order of age.

And who's the youngest?:smallwink:

[Rakoa]

And who's the youngest?:smallwink:

The pile of cinders left in the fireplace?

[Nerd-o-rama]

You can't command undead to self-terminate.
Theory:
They probably didn't want RC to kill them himself, so they lied about it. We never saw or heard them killing themselves. They might hold a grudge against RC for making them kill their mother. Also what better way to lie to a guy who sees undead as tools than to convince him that they are under his control:smallwink:

Nothing in the Command Undead subset of Turn/Rebuke Undead says anything about not being able to issue self-destructive orders:


Commanded (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm)

A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones.

The spell of the same name (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commandUndead.htm) does have this caveat, but it's a completely different game mechanic (it explicitly has somatic and verbal components, for one thing, while the Cleric class feature does not).

That's an interesting theory but a long longshot.

[orrion]

You can't command undead to self-terminate.
Theory:
They probably didn't want RC to kill them himself, so they lied about it. We never saw or heard them killing themselves. They might hold a grudge against RC for making them kill their mother. Also what better way to lie to a guy who sees undead as tools than to convince him that they are under his control:smallwink:

Wait, your theory is that they were somehow able to lie (thus refusing an order), but they hold a grudge because they somehow weren't able to refuse the order to kill Tsukiko?

Yeah, I'm gonna go with no.

[CaDzilla]

Wait, your theory is that they were somehow able to lie (thus refusing an order), but they hold a grudge because they somehow weren't able to refuse the order to kill Tsukiko?

Yeah, I'm gonna go with no.

The order was given after they had drained the life out of her. Also, control of their bodies was temporarily wrenched away from them by a high level cleric with a high wisdom score.

[Kish]

They never had control of their bodies. They went from being Tsukiko's thralls in the same way the High Priest of Hel used to be Malack's thrall, to being Redcloak's thralls, to being destroyed.

[The Giant]

Commanded undead absolutely can be given suicidal orders. The spell Command Undead is a 2nd level wizard spell that requires verbal orders and requires Charisma checks to convince to do anything it wouldn't normally do; the command undead function is a clerical ability generally only available to high-level clerics (since their level must be twice the Hit Dice of the undead) which can use mental commands and gives absolute control. They're completely unrelated abilities, just named in a less-than-crystal-clear manner.

So yes, Redcloak absolutely ordered them to kill each other, and then one to kill themselves, and that's exactly what happened. I just didn't show it because it would be pretty horrific.

Also, this thread is supposed to be about Hel's art style. Discussions about how the metaphysics of this situation work should be taken to another thread.

[Dalek Kommander]

The fact that Durkula has only been woshipping Hel for one day but he's already risen to the rank of "High Priest" suggests to me that there isn't a lot of competition for that job title.

[orrion]

The fact that Durkula has only been woshipping Hel for one day but he's already risen to the rank of "High Priest" suggests to me that there isn't a lot of competition for that job title.

Yes, exactly. I read as him getting the title by default because he's the only one and happens to be possessing a cleric's body (hence Hel using the word "serendipitous").

Now, if the vampire deserts the party when they travel over dwarven lands and meets up with a bunch of Hel's followers including other priests, I'll revise it.

[CaDzilla]

Hel didn't have eye bags in her previous appearances, why is that?

[Keltest]

Hel didn't have eye bags in her previous appearances, why is that?

probably because it was such a small scale that it wasn't worth putting them in.

[orrion]

Hel didn't have eye bags in her previous appearances, why is that?

It's a cinema scene, she's allowed to look cooler.

[CaDzilla]

It's a cinema scene, she's allowed to look cooler.

Wait does this mean that she put on make-up for her high-priest?

[SaintRidley]

Wait does this mean that she put on make-up for her high-priest?

It might just mean that now that she has a high priest her health has improved.

[Zmeoaice]

Hel didn't have eye bags in her previous appearances, why is that?

She spent a lot of time planning the whole Durkula fiasco that she didn't get her beauty sleep since he was vamped.

[Keltest]

It might just mean that now that she has a high priest her health has improved.

Bags under the eyes are generally a symptom of poor health (ie lack of sleep).

[SaintRidley]

Huh. I just noticed that there are bags under her eyes. I was wondering what everyone was going on about, since I never saw them.

Well, nevermind that then.

[danelsan]

For all the people talking about Durkon being bad at knowledge: Religion, do keep in mind that he has gained quite a few skill points since the freaking Dungeon of Dorukan, hundreds of strips and 10+ levels ago.

I doubt his Knowledge: Religion still qualifies as awful. Probably still nothing to write home about , as far as high level Clerics are concerned, but still...
Malack seemed like quite a scholar and didn't come away with the impression of Durkon being an idiot at religious discussion.

[Amphiox]

Bags under the eyes are generally a symptom of poor health (ie lack of sleep).

But, shouldn't a death god whose domain is the sickly dead look sicker when she's at her most powerful?

[Keltest]

But, shouldn't a death god whose domain is the sickly dead look sicker when she's at her most powerful?

Not if she doesn't want to.

[CaDzilla]

If she has put on make-up, then she did it to look more "grave-like". If she's not wearing make-up, then those are bags that she got arguing with Thor. Spending most of your time debating whether splinters/paper cuts count as battle scars takes a lot out of you.

[Domino Quartz]

Not if she doesn't want to.

Why wouldn't she want to?

[Keltest]

Why wouldn't she want to?

I dunno. Why would she want anything? Shes a goddess.

[RadagastTheBrow]

Idea! I'm not familiar with "bags under the eyes," so didn't recognize them as such- I just assumed those ellipse thingies around her eyes were some sort of necromantic godly aura thing. What if Hel's a superimposed image of a living, healthy goddess and a skeleton? Would be a nice, subtle call to the "half dead" thing, though possibly a pain to draw for multiple scenes.

Although I do like somebody else's interpretation that Hel's dead half is her inside.